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[FlutterPuffs]

Reading this thread makes me want to ask a question

Has there been any form of socialist government that works? If so which and how they managed it to be so?

 

[Slightly Live]

A good explanation of socialism:

The Morals of Socialism

I think what we are seeing in Venezuela is a few having absolute control.

Agenda driven drive-by shitposting much? Holy heck.

I have to admit though, tying socialism into your wacky anti-Christ fears is pretty bold. Boldly stupid, but bold.

A country imploding due to corruption and you are trying to score... kooky religiously dictated political points?

 

[Condom]

Reading this thread makes me want to ask a question

Has there been any form of socialist government that works? If so which and how they managed it to be so?

Depends on what your definition of socialism is.
I'd say the Soviet Union was a tremendous success economically speaking, especially for a first try. On other issues like peasants power and transparency it's obvious that we shouldn't be taking lessons from the USSR Stalin ended setting up.

It mostly has been trial and error just like Capitalism in it's early stages (that one still struggles to work in poor countries).

People IMO shouldn't be asking for a perfect pilot country example from the past but rather asking how we can take the successful things from older projects and improve on the things that went wrong. All that without being boycotted or sabotaged to nothingness by the US and it's allies.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think people arguing over whether or not a certain country is socialist are wasting their time because they don't need to. You can look at individual policies which are capitalist or socialist and see their effect. So for example, Mao's China was not a text book case of brilliant communism. There's nothing in Das Kapital about banging on pots and pans to scare away birds. But what certainly was a socialist policy was the prohibition for farmers to be able to sell any "spare" produce. This lead to mass starvations as farmers only ever produced enough for themselves and their families, because any extra labour they put on went wholly unrewarded. Deng showed up and reformed it so that farmers could tell excess produce at local markets and, in an incredibly short space of time, starvation dropped like a stone because this element of private enterprise acted as an incentive to the farmers to produce enough for everyone, not just themselves. Huzzah. The wider context of China's authenticity as a communist state is largely irrelevant to this example of private enterprise leading to a better solution than a centrally planned state economy.

As such, whether Venezuela is "socialist" or whether Chavez was a dictator are by the by.

 

[Cow Mengde]

We have are own gaffer who desperately wants to get out and so far is unable to do so

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113196

Do we know how he's doing right now?

 

[Mecha]

Reading this thread makes me want to ask a question

Has there been any form of socialist government that works? If so which and how they managed it to be so?

The best examples I have seen come from libertarian socialism/anarcho-communism with places like Rojava, shinmin autonomous region, Free Territory, revolutionary catalonia, the Paris Commune, etc. Leninism and other state socialist methods seem to lead straight to perpetual dictatorships.

 

[Flying Toaster]

The sad part of this... I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. It is going to get much worse before it becomes better.

 

[Funky Papa]

Cheering for Maduro's (democratic) removal from power is only natural. He is an awful leader with a terrible authoritarian streak and his policies have brought Venezuela to one of its most tense moments in history.

Just be very, very wary of the alternatives. Because what will come after him may make him look like a good spirited oaf.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Jesus this is bad man. I really feel for the people in Venezuela.

 

[benjipwns]

Everyone seems to be ignoring that the fascist right-wing neoliberal capitalist opposition stole the 2015 elections and is now in control of the National Assembly.

Hopefully Maduro can survive this coup until 2019 and 2020 and lead the Great Patriotic Pole to back to back sweeping once again free and fair elections that wipe out the opposition permanently.

 

[Funky Papa]

Everyone seems to be ignoring that the fascist right-wing neoliberal capitalist opposition stole the 2015 elections and is now in control of the National Assembly.

Hopefully Maduro can survive this coup until 2019 and 2020 and lead the Great Patriotic Pole to back to back sweeping once again free and fair elections that wipe out the opposition permanently.

You chortle, but the larger part of the opposition is legitimely scary. The product of a highly disfunctional nation marred by sectarian politics.

 

[nelsonroyale]

Things do seem to be incredibly difficult in many areas of Venezuela at the moment. Seems a combination of government mismanagment, opposition agitation, deep social and economic tensions, and foreign givernment squeeze. All in all, I got to say it is fucking sad. I am slightly wary of the perspective of at least one of the authors of that article (seems far from balanced), but I know things are fucking tough.

A good explanation of socialism:

The Morals of Socialism

Good morning straw man...That wasn't an explanation...it was pretty crumby metaphor. It must be nice to view the world in such simplistic terms. Also, fucking hell he doesn't need to recourse to such metaphors. Explain the morals in the complexity that is the provision of real world health care. Not some sharing sandwhich bullshit and pulling wagons, that still provides no useful real world context. Bit mean, but I have got to say this D'Souza guy comes off as a bit of dumb ass.

Funky Papa: Largely agree with what you have been saying. It is a highly complex situation, and many of the most powerful in the opposition are not good news at all. Super corrupt as well.

 

[Nivash]

Good morning straw man...That wasn't an explanation...it was pretty crumby metaphor. It must be nice to view the world in such simplistic terms. Also, fucking hell he doesn't need to recourse to such metaphors. Explain the morals in the complexity that is the provision of real world health care. Not some sharing sandwhich bullshit and pulling wagons, that still provides no useful real world context. Bit mean, but I have got to say this D'Souza guy comes off as a bit of dumb ass.

That was D'Souza? Glad I didn't watch it then. Guy's a complete hack. One of his other "works":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016:_Obama's_America

Oh, and he's a convicted felon to boot. Hardly anyone with an authority on morality.

 

[darkace]

Depends on what your definition of socialism is.
I'd say the Soviet Union was a tremendous success economically speaking,

It really wasn't. Krugman's look into the Soviet Unions growth led him to say 'the big surprise about Soviet growth was that when closely examined it posed no mystery.'

Command economies are great at increasing inputs (e.g. literacy, tertiary education), but there isn't much they can do once literacy is 99% of tertiary education is at the world average. That's when they start to fall behind.

 

[Bregor]

Venezuela since Chavez has nationalized industries and used the income as a giveaway to the poor. It's a socialist country. I'm reading a book about Zimbabwe right now, which is run by a crooked Marxist, it's been the same thing for over a decade now. Mugabe "nationalized" agriculture by stealing it from (white) farmers and giving it to his incompetent (black) friends. Agriculture collapsed right after.

I know this is a bit late, but could you tell me the title and author of the book about Zimbabwe?

 

[Jackpot]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...state-of-emergency-blaming-us-for-instability

Venezuela president declares 60-day state of emergency, blaming US for instability

Nicolas Maduro says ‘Washington is activating measures at the request of Venezuela’s fascist right’

Maduro did not provide details of the measure. A previous state of emergency, implemented in states near the Colombian border last year, suspended constitutional guarantees in those areas, except for guarantees relating to human rights.

Flanked by his ministers and a statue of Chavez, Maduro signed a state of emergency and extended a state of economic emergency to protect the country from foreign and domestic “threats”, without providing details.

Venezuela’s opposition, which scoffs at Maduro’s accusations of coups-mongering, quickly condemned the measure.

“Today Maduro has again violated the constitution,” said opposition lawmaker Tomas Guanipa. “Why? Because he is scared of being recalled.”

totes not a dictator.

 

[Apt101]

Real unfortunate series of events, I feel badly for the children who are going to have to live through these lean times. There's a Venezuelan place I used to frequent when I lived at my old apartment (like, two apartments ago) and I still make a point to go there once a month or so to pick something up - like Pasticcio (their take on it), my favorite from them. I went this past weekend and the owner (Maria Aejandra, what a great name) was all broken up about her family who are still there. She's trying to get at least her two nieces to the US, their parents too if possible. Lots of red tape.

 

[Guileless]

Venezuela’s military is ready for the looming invasion by the United States.

That was the message President Nicolás Maduro seemed eager to convey over the weekend as he presided over a military exercise that put his country’s troops and weaponry center stage in the midst of a political crisis.

“We’re as ready for an invasion as we’ve ever been,” Mr. Maduro said during a speech, standing in front of an armored vehicle...

Mr. Maduro’s government has been hyping the threat of an American invasion for several weeks. In April, propaganda outlets controlled by the state reported on a supposedly leaked document from the American military that detailed the invasion plan. The document, titled “Venezuela Freedom-2 Operation,” is bogus, a said Col. Lisa Garcia, a spokeswoman for the United States Southern Command. (You’d think the Venezuelans could have come up with a catchier, more realistic fake campaign name.)

The reality of external threats notwithstanding, Venezuela has been spending more money than any other country in Latin America on military equipment in recent years, according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, which tracks global weapons sales...

The bulk of the materiel was imported from Russia under contracts negotiated by President Vladimir Putin of Russia and Mr. Maduro’s predecessor, Hugo Chávez, who died in 2013, Sam Perlo-Freeman, a senior researcher at SIPRI said in an email. Mr. Perlo-Freeman said the purchases are not entirely rational.

“If you really did fear a U.S. invasion, a dozen or so major combat aircraft would be utterly pointless, as they would probably be destroyed on the ground in the first 15 minutes of an attack,” Mr. Perlo-Freeman said.

He offered a theory that makes more sense.

“There is massive corruption in Venezuela, and that can hugely influence both the level and type of equipment purchased, as large arms deals can be lucrative sources of bribes,” Mr. Perlo-Freeman wrote.

Via NYT

Thanks Obama.

 

[God Dayumm]

Putin is loling all the way to the bank

 

[mantidor]

Lol

No one would be dumb enough to invade Venezuela right now.

 

[zebaz08]

Hopefully the 21 century socialism ends soon for venezuelans. Such a big farse of stupid populism many people believed in.

 

[Piecake]

Kinda curious how many Venezuelans would support an invasion by this point

 

[qcf x2]

Hopefully the 21 century socialism ends soon for venezuelans. Such a big farse of stupid populism many people believed in.

Crazy how quickly it turned ugly.

 

[Condom]

Any people see the video about supermarkets allegedly hiding food? Is it old, fake/fabricated or legit?
I mean it was already known that smuggling was happening because of the price controls, you can't really stretch that policy when you have private businesses who will try their best to export their products instead to stay afloat/make more profit.

You can lift the price controls but then you need to lend money to subsidize the products yourself or otherwise face the problem of people being left to die on the streets.

Spoiler

also why you need to seize the means of production at some point

And lol @ the people who think the US will not intervene if Venezuela goes 'too far'. Yes the Venezuela's government is bullshitting acting like the US would come in like it's Iraq in 2003 or something, doesn't mean the US wouldn't still try to do something more covertly.
It is kind of funny that the journalist in the NYT article posted here believes US government spokespersons on their word lmao.

 

[Divvy]

Of course they are hiding food. Where do you think the rich Venezuelans are getting their food from. They certainly aren't starving. They basically bribe markets to save food for them.

 

[Harl3]

Of course they are hiding food. Where do you think the rich Venezuelans are getting their food from. They certainly aren't starving. They basically bribe markets to save food for them.

These richs Venezuelans (or people that have jobs) buy their food from people that stay on multiple lines in supermarkets all day or does deals with the people who runs the supermarket.

Spoiler

It was sarcasm?

 

[mantidor]

When you try to do this dumbass price controls like Chavez and Maduro did it's only going to make the black market to grow exponentially as well as prices so only a very few privileged can afford them, and its not necessarily the rich but the ones closer to the government and people who can bribe, and that tends to be on the side of bribing by force rather than money, so yes, its mostly the police and military, not the "rich". add to that the scarcity and it means that you deepen to absurd new levels the inequality you were supposedly trying to prevent.

 

[LUFTRAUSER]

Any people see the video about supermarkets allegedly hiding food? Is it old, fake/fabricated or legit?
I mean it was already known that smuggling was happening because of the price controls, you can't really stretch that policy when you have private businesses who will try their best to export their products instead to stay afloat/make more profit.

You can lift the price controls but then you need to lend money to subsidize the products yourself or otherwise face the problem of people being left to die on the streets.

Spoiler

also why you need to seize the means of production at some point

And lol @ the people who think the US will not intervene if Venezuela goes 'too far'. Yes the Venezuela's government is bullshitting acting like the US would come in like it's Iraq in 2003 or something, doesn't mean the US wouldn't still try to do something more covertly.
It is kind of funny that the journalist in the NYT article posted here believes US government spokespersons on their word lmao.

It's weird to see someone in the 21st Century, living in an advanced Western country, that has fallen victim to Venezuelan propaganda. How does that happen?