Support NeoGAF

[Graphics Horse]

Sorry to interrupt the spec talk, but I've just come across this
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Sony-Xperia-sola-floating-touch-magic-explained_id28043

and wondered if it could be used in the new controller. Wouldn't need to have a screen on the touch pad, but being able to detect where your thumbs/fingers are even 3/4 an inch away from the surface you could probably make a decent on-tv keyboard which shows you what you're about to press, for example. Never tried the phone or heard about it before so let me know if the tech is shit/good.


Edit: By the sounds of it, the PS3 keypad accessory has a contactless touch pad mode using some sort of strong signal capacitive sensor too.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Will PS4 feature a discrete GPU in addition to the APU? I'm really lost when it comes to the technicalities of these things. I thought there was talk of PS4 featuring both something akin to the Trinity APU and a 8xxx series GPU? Or was that all just crap. I want the machine to be beastly while maintaining affordability.

My understanding is the APU + GPU combo is only in dev kits. The final will supposedly be one System on Chip with the combined power of both.

 

[Can Crusher]

Can't it actually be possible that we simply don't know the whole picture yet?

Orbis Dev Kits have been around for ages, and still you mostly heard about Durango dev kits leaks.

The apparent bigger enthusiasm from "insiders" towards Durango speculation might just be that there's more to speculate on.

The whole "Devs don't know much what's going on with Orbis" is from a year ago. Since then, we've heard Crytek complain about the memory amount for example. And since then Sony has upped the memory amount,

Leaks and rumors about Orbis are simply more straightforward because the hardware design itself is straightforward.

You can always compare dev kits vs dev kits for an example of the targets for both consoles.

Pulling the trigger already and saying MS doesn't give a shit about games anymore, and Sony now is all about that...it just sounds like such premature conclusions.

My understanding is the APU + GPU combo is only in dev kits. The final will supposedly be one System on Chip with the combined power of both.

Yeah that does seem to be the plan.

 

[thuway]

I don't know if i should place a bet, but i'm still waiting on the magic special super duper secret sauce that Durango has to exceed Orbis.

Why am i saying this?

Let's pick up the most credible rumors out there that gives us the following specs:

Orbis

4 cores clocked at 3.2ghz
4 GB of RAM at 192mb/s
GPU unit capable of 1.84 TF

Against

8 cores clocked at 1.6ghz
8 GB of RAM at 68m/s
GPU unit capable of 1.30 TF

So all three of those specs clearly favor Orbis, but still, the impression that everyone in the american boards have is that Durango is a bit better than Orbis. I know "both will be good, port buddies, bla bla bla".

I know, but it's clear that everybody in these forums expect Durango to outperform Orbis and i just don't see how.

The hardcore market is there for Sony for their taking. The only chance they miss out on this is if they go nuts on trojan horses and useless things, like 3D and 4K. Unfortunately, it appears that they do, but Microsoft is giving all the clues you can hope for saying that they are going for the living room, which makes me question just how much of a hardcore machine they will make.

Kinect, glasses, Windows 8, streaming services, home automation, it's just too many stuff getting in their way. I don't see them doing all of this AND being the system of choice for hardcore gamers.

The specs we know only make this even more difficult.

I don't know, this is a random rant, but it surprises me the amount of people expecting a stronger system from Microsoft just because they are rich, when all signs point them going for living room owning crap.

Let's wait and see, but in my mind the meltdowns will be if people find out that Durango doesn't stomp Orbis like they once thought.

You really shouldn't make posts like these. There are too many unknown variables. In current configurations, ProElite mentioned that either system could be up to 50% more powerful. I am not a programmer, so I have no idea how these things work. However, you need to take some facts in:

1. Orbis is using GCN, Durango is using GCN2
2. Durango was designed to work around bandwith issues and Orbis brute forces those issues.
3. The effect of 4 GB versus 8 GB of RAM. Fast versus slow RAM. What type of engine, etc.

Both should be a massive jump .

 

[Spongebob]

If the specs are accurate, I think a lot of the positive excitement about Durango is just because more is known about it in the development world and there's more refined dev kits rather than a claim that Durango is more powerful.

On paper, Orbis looks like a more powerful and simple solution compared to what Microsoft is looking to provide.

But a lot of devs appear to be in the dark about Orbis and there's not a whole lot of information from Sony since they're not as forthcoming. The dev environment probably isn't as far along either.

But, IF the rumored specs are true...even with those supposed 3 extra magic chips, I don't see Durango moving past its shortcomings in comparison to Orbis.

I think Microsoft's unusual design stems from their intended goals for the platform, and a lot of those dedicated hardware resources will be used primarily for the purpose of aiding in certain functions Microsoft wants to support -- Kinect, Windows 8, TV Tuner, etc.

Sony's console looks to be designed mostly to target high-end specs for gaming and won't allocate nearly as many resources to features.

Just my two cents. In the end, they'll be in the same ballpark. Both will be next-gen.

That's still too early to say since we still don't really know what Durango's "special sauce" is. All we know is that its significant enough that it makes flop comparisons invalid. Either way neither system will outperform the other by no more than 10%.

 

[thuway]

That's still too early to say since we still don't really know what Durango's "special sauce" is. All we know is that its significant enough that it makes flop comparisons invalid. Either way neither system will outperform the other by no more than 10%.

It depends on the type of engine being used and how the programmers use their limitations. Exclusives will show off the platform, but third party games like Battlefield have very little to gain from favoring either system. They need to worry about working within a smaller bandwith and fitting everything into a 3-3.5 GB RAM pool.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Yeah fucking right, sources?

gonna reveal my sources in a google hangout

 

[Insane Metal]

gonna reveal my sources in a google hangout

lol

 

[Allonym]

My understanding is the APU + GPU combo is only in dev kits. The final will supposedly be one System on Chip with the combined power of both.

Well as long as it has the combined power of both, I am more than satisfied! Things are shaping up (supposedly) to be great for Orbis from a technological perspective.

 

[Spongebob]

It depends on the type of engine being used and how the programmers use their limitations. Exclusives will show off the platform, but third party games like Battlefield have very little to gain from favoring either system. They need to worry about working within a smaller bandwith and fitting everything into a 3-3.5 GB RAM pool.

Just like this gen

 

[Saberus]

I always imagined ORBIS like a solar system with GPU in the center of the MB with the APU mounted on the outer side of the GPU.

Of course this was before all the rumors that its only 1 APU now.

 

[Allonym]

You really shouldn't make posts like these. There are too many unknown variables. In current configurations, ProElite mentioned that either system could be up to 50% more powerful. I am not a programmer, so I have no idea how these things work. However, you need to take some facts in:

1. Orbis is using GCN, Durango is using GCN2
2. Durango was designed to work around bandwith issues and Orbis brute forces those issues.
3. The effect of 4 GB versus 8 GB of RAM. Fast versus slow RAM. What type of engine, etc.

Both should be a massive jump .

What is GCN and GCN2 and what does the acronym stand for?

 

[thuway]

What is GCN and GCN2 and what does the acronym stand for?

7000 series cards and 8000 series cards respectively. GCN is the architecture's name. It stands for Graphic Core Next.

 

[Dark_AnNiaLatOr]

What is GCN and GCN2 and what does the acronym stand for?

It stands for Game Core Next, which is AMD's new architecture for their graphics cards. I assume it must be a big leap from the 6xxx/5xxx series that had the old tech.

edit: i'm a fool lol, it's Graphics Core Next as said above haha

 

[AgentP]

2. Durango was designed to work around bandwith issues and Orbis brute forces those issues.
.

Let's be fair, both methods are "designed" to work around bandwidth issues, they are just two different philosophies. One is the traditional PC method, the other is a more console like solution.

 

[Can Crusher]

Let's be fair, both methods are "designed" to work around bandwidth issues, they are just two different philosophies. One is the traditional PC method, the other is a more console like solution.

Pretty much. Some hot shot from Sony said bandwidth was going to be the big challenge for next gen, and there were rumors of them looking at Wide O solutions. The solution they chose was GDDr5.

 

[Allonym]

7000 series cards and 8000 series cards respectively. GCN is the architecture's name. It stands for Graphic Core Next.

Oh normally I'd expect a large disparity between the tw since one is a later series but is this the series of cards, the 8xxx, that were simply a rebadging of the prior series the 7xxx? Or was that all just false gibberish?

 

[WeAreStarStuff]

That's still too early to say since we still don't really know what Durango's "special sauce" is. All we know is that its significant enough that it makes flop comparisons invalid. Either way neither system will outperform the other by no more than 10%.

I find it a bit funny that you basically say it is too early to jump to conclusions.... and then you do exactly that.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

You really shouldn't make posts like these. There are too many unknown variables. In current configurations, ProElite mentioned that either system could be up to 50% more powerful. I am not a programmer, so I have no idea how these things work. However, you need to take some facts in:

1. Orbis is using GCN, Durango is using GCN2
2. Durango was designed to work around bandwith issues and Orbis brute forces those issues.
3. The effect of 4 GB versus 8 GB of RAM. Fast versus slow RAM. What type of engine, etc.

Both should be a massive jump .

Your pulling this all out of your ass, stating its fact.

 

[Globox_82]

Your pulling this all out of your ass, stating its fact.

Isn't that what everyone is doing ? No one knows anything

 

[Can Crusher]

Oh normally I'd expect a large disparity between the tw since one is a later series but is this the series of cards, the 8xxx, that were simply a rebadging of the prior series the 7xxx? Or was that all just false gibberish?

Yes they are being re branded, but 87xx-88xx series coming later this year will be GCN2.

Your pulling this all out of your ass, stating its fact.

The thing here is that the stuff he pulls out of his ass has held water before.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

How do we know Orbis isn't getting GCN2?

Dev kits apparently don't even have the final chip, but an APU + discrete GPU (eventually combined into one)

 

[Saberus]

I find it fun just to see all the speculation from the Gaffers turn rumors into Legendary fact. The next few months will be awesome.

 

[Can Crusher]

How do we know Orbis isn't getting GCN2?

Dev kits apparently don't even have the final chip, but an APU + discrete GPU (eventually combined into one)

How do we know that Durango and Orbis aren't powered by an 8 Core Intel? How do we know they don't even have 4GB of ram when combined, much alone 4 GB each? How do you know Sony is looking to combine both?

We know what we know based on leaks, based on "inside info" obviously. Else we would still be speculating how many cores would SuperCell have!

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

How do we know that Durango and Orbis aren't powered by an 8 Core Intel? How do we know they don't even have 4GB of ram when combined, much alone 4 GB each? How do you know Sony is looking to combine both?

We know what we know based on leaks, based on "inside info" obviously. Else we would still be speculating how many cores would SuperCell have!

All I'm saying is that the Orbis kits don't even have final chips in them yet.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Yes they are being re branded, but 87xx-88xx series coming later this year will be GCN2.



The thing here is that the stuff he pulls out of his ass has held water before.

Care to give an example?

I find it fun just to see all the speculation from the Gaffers turn rumors into Legendary fact. The next few months will be awesome.

Legendary fact indeed. Some of these guys act like they are Disciples.

 

[sweetvar26]

I'm glad to see that the fight for the right specs is still going on GAF ...

 

[Elios83]

How do we know Orbis isn't getting GCN2?

Dev kits apparently don't even have the final chip, but an APU + discrete GPU (eventually combined into one)

We don't and it doesn't even make sense. Why one should be settling with an older architecture if there is the possibility to use a newer one and the other is using it so it's feasible? We're talking about the default architecture of compute units in the GPUs, not a special customization requested by the client.
The problem is that a few people are starting to assume that certain things are facts and they're just ruining these discussions imo, adding confusion to the picture just to pretend that they know and everything is clear when it's not.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

All the info we get for Orbis look like Sony did hardly any customization at all which i find hard to believe .
Durango we heard all about how MS customize both the CPU and GPU but nothing from Sony .
Now even if MS has been working with AMD longer we know Sony has been doing stuff with them since 2010 .
Seem strange that no one has info on what they did with there parts .

Still this all base on rumors so most of the fun is speculating

 

[LowEndTorque]

Has this been posted yet?

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/01/...dly-leaked-to-nvidia-by-former-amd-executives

 

[Karak]

Has this been posted yet?

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/01/...dly-leaked-to-nvidia-by-former-amd-executives

Ya and there is a thread too.

 

[Can Crusher]

All I'm saying is that the Orbis kits don't even have final chips in them yet.

From what we know. We don't know if devkits have final chips in Durango's case either. All we have is a bunch of rumors and sources we choose to either believe or not.

Being selective in the rumors we pick, doesn't add up to something more real.

Care to give an example?



Legendary fact indeed. Some of these guys act like they are Disciples.

What, I'm gonna go around keeping notes? Stuff has been said, and people who work in the press have confirmed.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

From what we know. We don't know if devkits have final chips in Durango's case either. All we have is a bunch of rumors and sources we chose to either believe or not.

Being selective in the rumors we pick, doesn't add up to something more real.



What, I'm gonna go around keeping notes? Stuff has been said, and people who work in the press have confirmed.

Didn't SuperDEA or whatever post that he had beta kits? That's pretty final; I would expect those to have finalized chips in them.

SONY's "beta" version kits are expected to go out this month, we haven't heard any updates.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

We don't and it doesn't even make sense. Why one should be settling with an older architecture if there is the possibility to use a newer one and the other is using it so it's feasible? We're talking about the default architecture of compute units in the GPUs, not a special customization requested by the client.
The problem is that a few people are starting to assume that certain things are facts and they're just ruining these discussions imo, adding confusion to the picture.

Educate.

 

[Can Crusher]

Didn't SuperDEA or whatever post that he had beta kits? That's pretty final; I would expect those to have finalized chips in them.

SONY's "beta" version kits are expected to go out this month, we haven't heard any updates.

See, you chose to believe SuperdAE is a credible source. Considering time lines, and extrapolated fab schedules, both consoles would be delivering beta kits this month. I also believe that.

 

[BlackJace]

You're all wrong.

There.

 

[thuway]

Didn't SuperDEA or whatever post that he had beta kits? That's pretty final; I would expect those to have finalized chips in them.

SONY's "beta" version kits are expected to go out this month, we haven't heard any updates.

The only thing we know for certain is "the target" specs for Sony's machine. Once again refer back to the VG leaks rumor.

 

[rdrr gnr]

You're all wrong.

There.

Anyone who truly does have insider information sure as shit isn't posting it on this forum. It is all speculation -- even if it does turn out to be close to the truth. It's dishonest to say otherwise or to give the appearance of knowing otherwise -- some are doing just that. The one who probably does know more than he should is winking at us a few posts up. Everyone else is guessing -- as educated as those guesses may be.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The only thing we know for certain is "the target" specs for Sony's machine. Once again refer back to the VG leaks rumor.

Were those really target specs for the final hardware or just specs of an early dev kit? How would anyone besides a few Sony employees know the target specs for the final hardware at that time?

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Anyone who truly does have insider information sure as shit isn't posting it on this forum. It is all speculation -- even if it does turn out to be close to the truth. It's dishonest to say otherwise or to give the appearance of knowing otherwise -- some are doing just that.

Nicely said.

From what we know. We don't know if devkits have final chips in Durango's case either. All we have is a bunch of rumors and sources we choose to either believe or not.

Being selective in the rumors we pick, doesn't add up to something more real.



What, I'm gonna go around keeping notes? Stuff has been said, and people who work in the press have confirmed.

Your contradicting yourself. You first admit that your selecting rumors that you believe are true, then say people who work in the press have made confirmations. Confirmations about what? If there were in fact confirmations in the context of Durango and Orbis hardware, believing in particular rumors would be absolutely redundant.

You're all wrong.

There.

Finally someone who makes sense!

Speculation is good and fun (hell my speculation is the craziest on this board, but at least I admit it) but when people start misleading posters and lurkers on this forum by stating things as fact is when I feel the need to speak up and challenge those claims.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

The only thing we know for certain is "the target" specs for Sony's machine. Once again refer back to the VG leaks rumor.

This doesn't tell us anything about whether Orbis will have GCN2

 

[Can Crusher]

Anyone who truly does have insider information sure as shit isn't posting it on this forum. It is all speculation -- even if it does turn out to be close to the truth. It's dishonest to say otherwise or to give the appearance of knowing otherwise -- some are doing just that. The one who probably does know more than he should is winking at us a few posts up. Everyone else is guessing -- as educated as those guesses may be.

You have to wonder something though. Why going for an account suicide? Is it really worth it, for grown ass man after all these years to just act like 12 year olds and start lying to be popular?

That would be crazy man.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

You have to wonder something though. Why going for an account suicide? Is it really worth it, for grown ass man after all these years to just act like 12 year olds and start lying to be popular?

That would be crazy man.

neogaf.gif

Edit: Simply stated, passion sometimes impairs reason and judgment.

 

[Can Crusher]

Your contradicting yourself. You first admit that your selecting rumors that you believe are true, then say people who work in the press have made confirmations. Confirmations about what? If there were in fact confirmations in the context of Durango and Orbis hardware, believing in particular rumors would be absolutely redundant.

Contradicting? If a guy that works at polygon keeps saying the system will have 8GB of ram according to what devs tell him, am I supposed to be all like "oh man this guy doesn't know shit, I know something"? Wouldn't just be the least sensible attitude to have?

Furthermore, what reason do I have for not believing him? Specs don't match with what I dream? Makes no sense.

 

[rdrr gnr]

You have to wonder something though. Why going for an account suicide? Is it really worth it, for grown ass man after all these years to just act like 12 year olds and start lying to be popular?

That would be crazy man.

That's the thing: Most posts are open to interpretation; therefore, it is not a direct lie. I keep seeing people post that proelite is both telling the truth and lying in order to protect his source. Uh, fuck that. He may as well smash his hands on the keyboard for thirty seconds and post that drivel. Here's the thing: No one in this thread is expecting to know the exact details of everything a month before the announcement. When I come into threads like this, I expect rampant and unfettered speculation. When I read a post from Brad, i-Lo, gofreak, and many more. It is abundantly clear that they are making educated guesses. That's fine. I do not get that same vibe from thuway, proelite, or aegies. It's dishonest. Do I believe they know something that you or I could not find online? Probably not (aegies could -- but from second hand info). People are chomping at the bit for info and it feels somewhat opportunistic. I know GAF doesn't do ban bets anymore really (and they are quite cheesy) but I sure as fuck would be less skeptical if people put their accounts on the line.

 

[Gorillaz]

neogaf.gif

Edit: Simply stated, passion sometimes impairs reason and judgment.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Contradicting? If a guy that works at polygon keeps saying the system will have 8GB of ram according to what devs tell him, am I supposed to be all like "oh man this guy doesn't know shit, I know something"? Wouldn't just be the least sensible attitude to have?

Furthermore, what reason do I have for not believing him? Specs don't match with what I dream? Makes no sense.

No, I'm not saying that. I'm responding mostly to the larger point, which is people taking tidbits of information that are most plausible, lacing them with their crazy ideas, and purporting it as fact.

I'm not suggesting that you are the culprit here rather than responding to the context of our previous exchange about Thuman's legitimacy and other posters who make absolute claims.

 

[Teletraan1]

I love how people want power rankings for these consoles when the entire picture isn't known. Even when we know all the specs we probably wont know which is more powerful unless we get some games that take advantage of the differences if these companies corporate espionage departments are up to snuff.

 

[sweetvar26]

Interesting; sweetvar26 posts have been deleted and Proelite who started this thread about NukeZilla Durango leaks has been banned and there are no links in the NeoGAF database if you try to find his posts.

Using NukeZilla as a starting point I found the site that had the Leaked Xbox 720 powerpoint and posted as the last post a link to that find. It was taken down within days of bgassassin starting a thread on NeoGAF about the leak.

Is speculation getting too close to the mark? Will bgassassin and I be next.....Stay tuned

That is some X-Files shit right there...

Haha, some of the posts in this thread did crack me up.

Also I read that someone wanted to punch me in my face? I think it was Karak, what for?

 

[Can Crusher]

No, I'm not saying that. I'm responding mostly to the larger point, which is people taking tidbits of information that are most plausible, lacing them with their crazy ideas, and purporting it as fact.

I'm not suggesting that you are the culprit here rather than responding to the context of our previous exchange about Thuman's legitimacy and other posters who make absolute claims.

All I'm saying here is we are all speculating on whatever info/rumors are out there. Some rumors sound more plausible than others, some sound like fanboy material, and others sound depressing.

But there is stuff out there that is coming from enough places that it turns them into real possibilities.