Support NeoGAF

[snoopeasystreet]

weren't they talking about a fairly credible xbox leak coming out this week on rebel fm?

can't remember if I'm recalling that correctly or if it was a weird fever dream.

 

[shinobi602]

Xbox 720 will require an always-on internet connection as an anti-piracy measure.

 

[Psychotext]

So the 360 has 3.2 GHz tri core, how high do the dual cores need to go? Like 4 GHz or what? xD

Why do you have to increase the frequency? You do realise that modern processors often focus on more instructions per cycle right? The ghz wars are over.

 

[Wazzim]

“It’s like two PCs taped together.”

Right.

 

[DieH@rd]

what is this magic? I need to know more!

It also works with AMD Fusion configurations.

 

[snoopeasystreet]

If it requires always online, I'll bet we'll see a SKU with 4G.

 

[fabricated backlash]

The PS3 foreman grill will finally be released but by Microsoft. 720 is going to be the perfect party machine, frying some burgers on it while playing Halo 5 in splitscreen.

 

[luffeN]

Why do you have to increase the frequency? You do realise that modern processors can do more instructions per cycle right? The ghz wars are over.

But isn't the ghz number the number showing you how many instructions per cycle you can use?

Edit: So Hertz is how many cycles per second, then your statement makes sense I guess?

 

[Rhindle]

Requirements for always online internet connection will go down well when Xbox live accounts are still being hacked so often. Now instead of losing your spacebucks, you'll lose access to disc games as well, at least as long as your account is disabled.

"Always on" is probably a misinterpretation. My guess is that an Internet connection will be required at the outset to register the disc serial number and tie it to the owner's gamer tag and/or console ID. Once authenticated and registered to the console, there should not be a need for a persistent connection.

 

[DonMigs85]

But isn't there a limit to how large an individual chip you want to put into a system? Isn't that why there are multi-core GPU's in smart phones? You're talking to a layman here.

I know that the 360 GPU is basically made up of 3 "clusters", each with 16 shader units.
Also on the PC side more powerful GPUs tend to have more of these clusters (for example the Geforce 8400 has 2, the 8600 has 4 and the 8800 GTX has 16.)

 

[Log4Girlz]

But isn't the ghz number the number showing you how many instructions per cycle you can use?

No, its how many cycles per second.

 

[AceBandage]

If it requires always online, I'll bet we'll see a SKU with 4G.

Pay $30 a month and $60 a year to play the damn thing.
Brilliant.

 

[Dabanton]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36351378&postcount=9288

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36353434&postcount=9314

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36353477&postcount=9316

Thanks

lol why Kinect as standard? are they any good game yet?

Wow how original.

 

[Hoo-doo]

The internet requirement sounds silly to me.
Plenty of standalone 360's in kids' bedrooms and basements and such, that never go online.

I personally won't really care about it, seeing as my entertainment area has a router right behind it, but I don't think Microsoft is going to ditch a part of the userbase like that.

Maybe in the future, when every single room in every house comes standard with ethernet adapters in the walls.

Besides that, i'm excited to hear that Microsoft is hungry for power in their next-generation consoles. Bring it on.

 

[DonMigs85]

But isn't the ghz number the number showing you how many instructions per cycle you can use?

The PPC cores in Xenon are pretty simple, though. No Out of Order Execution for one thing.

 

[Psychotext]

But isn't the ghz number the number showing you how many instructions per cycle you can use?

Only if you have two identical architectures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_cycle

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megahertz_myth

 

[APZonerunner]

I was told the always-on thing was “like Steam”. Maybe there’ll be an offline mode, or something. I was told it was a requirement, though.

Pat, the man behind the story (@patlike) on Twitter just now.

 

[AceBandage]

Pat, the man behind the story (@patlike) on Twitter just now.

Kind of how I figured it.
Which would suck.
Steam's OffLine mode is pretty horrible since a lot of the bigger games will not work.

 

[monome]

We're going to get several more rumors about this system fairly soon to my knowledge.

Comparing and contrasting should help.

Oh you!

 

[frankie_baby]

Always on net required is stupid, first not everyone can get broadband second there are many many people that can get broadband has it especially these days with many people choosing not to bother having a landline phone

 

[derFeef]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36351378&postcount=9288

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36353434&postcount=9314

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=36353477&postcount=9316

Oh wow, never read that. Sounds exciting.

 

[Vinterbird]

Built-in Kinect is a big deal.

Even bigger deal is always online DRM. I wonder how will that work.

It will be included in the box. There is no way they are going to physically built it into the console itself, since the motors inside the camera would take up insane amounts of space.

 

[Brad Grenz]

The only way anything resembling "dual GPUs" makes sense is if we're talking about a Fusion style APU with PowerPC cores and a shader array for GPGPU tasks with a discreet GPU for graphics. Even that seems pretty silly compared to just devoting more of your silicon budget to the GPU.

 

[mik83kuu]

Anyone who doesn't have an internet connection in 2013 has bigger problems than whether or not they can buy an Xbox.

 

[luffeN]

No, its how many cycles per second.

The PPC cores in Xenon are pretty simple, though. No Out of Order Execution for one thing.

Only if you have two identical architectures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_cycle

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megahertz_myth

Okey thanks guys!

 

[brain_stew]

But isn't there a limit to how large an individual chip you want to put into a system? Isn't that why there are multi-core GPU's in smart phones? You're talking to a layman here.

There is but it's far larger than the sort of chip you'd need for more than a generational leap.

Smartphones aren't a fair comparison, SGX cores scale in a different way to modern GPU designs from AMD/Nvidia.

Have a little perspective here people. We've gone from Microsoft trying to cram the CPU and GPU onto a single chip, to requiring 3 separate chips because Microsoft couldn't get a big enough leap from a single dedicated GPU die. When we have PC GPUs approaching 4 teraflops with a single die is it really realistic to entertain the fact that Microsoft is aiming even higher than that?

 

[Hazaro]

The only way anything resembling "dual GPUs" makes sense is if we're talking about a Fusion style APU with PowerPC cores and a shader array for GPGPU tasks with a discreet GPU for graphics. Even that seems pretty silly compared to just devoting more of your silicon budget to the GPU.

That's the only possible explanation I have. And it's a terrible one.
Unless someone from AMD somehow convinced some high up this was a good idea.

 

[Log4Girlz]

I know that the 360 GPU is basically made up of 3 "clusters", each with 16 shader units.
Also on the PC side more powerful GPUs tend to have more of these clusters (for example the Geforce 8400 has 2, the 8600 has 4 and the 8800 GTX has 16.)

Ok, cools. But say MS wanted a certain amount of performance. Let's say to get there it would require whatever number of whatever clusters. Altogether you need 6 billion transistors to get all the clusters you need. Do you make a single 6 billion transistor chip, or do you make two 3 billion transistor chips? Now, with traditional SLI and Crossfire you do not get a linear increase in performance (2 GPUs does not constitute a 100% performance increase), but perhaps with what they describe in the op, they are implementing something that gets closer to a 2 x increase?

There is but it's far larger than the sort of chip you'd need for more than a generational leap.

Smartphones aren't a fair comparison, SGX cores scale in a different way to modern GPU designs from AMD/Nvidia.

Have a little perspective here people. We've gone from Microsoft trying to cram the CPU and GPU onto a single chip, to requiring 3 separate chips because Microsoft couldn't get a big enough leap from a single dedicated GPU die. When we have PC GPUs approaching 4 teraflops with a single die is it really realistic to entertain the fact that Microsoft is aiming even higher than that?

The logical thing to do would be to create a very nice, very efficient brand spanking new GPU. But between what Alberto said and this rumor, I'm starting to think its possible they are going for two GPU's to get a larger than expected generational leap. Then again perhaps IGN was more on point and its a mild increase, or perhaps something closer to the Orbis rumors. Something more traditional.

 

[Joni]

They want to get you sold on Xbox Live. If you're always logged in, it means you'll be more open to take part in online events. If the Xbox 3 becomes online-only, it is because they hold more value to the potential of extra Gold registrations than to an offline gamer which would be logical.

 

[dragonelite]

We’ve also been told that the next generation of Kinect will be built into the device as standard.

This makes it sounds like they co developed kinect 2 and reserved processing resources and bandwidth for kinect 2 standard. Not a kinect camera into the console or packaged in.

So 2013 release and wasn't there a rapport of microsoft terminating working together with prime soft in 2014.

 

[brain_stew]

Ok, cools. But say MS wanted a certain amount of performance. Let's say to get there it would require whatever number of whatever clusters. Altogether you need 6 billion transistors to get all the clusters you need. Do you make a single 6 billion transistor chip, or do you make two 3 billion transistor chips? Now, with traditional SLI and Crossfire you do not get a linear increase in performance (2 GPUs does not constitute a 100% performance increase), but perhaps with what they describe in the op, they are implementing something that gets closer to a 2 x increase?



The logical thing to do would be to create a very nice, very efficient brand spanking new GPU. But between what Alberto said and this rumor, I'm starting to think its possible they are going for two GPU's to get a larger than expected generational leap. Then again perhaps IGN was more on point and its a mild increase, or perhaps something closer to the Orbis rumors. Something more traditional.

Then we're looking at a console the size of an AV receiver with an $800 price tag. That's the reality of what you're proposing. I'd be game, a console with 6 teraflops+ of GPU power sounds fantastic to me. I don't think the mainstream or Microsoft's accountants will be too happy though.

 

[Pezking]

That sounds pretty horrible. :-(

Our living room is absolutely incompatible to Kinect. Our couch isn't that far away from the TV, and there's a table between them as well. For Wii, my wife and I always stand behind the couch. This isn't possible with Kinect, since it couldn't detect our legs and feet that way.

If I can completely ignore Kinect on the next XBox, everything's fine. But if it's mandatory for menus and most games - that would be a big problem.

Also: Always-on internet connection is just awful. As long as nobody explains to me how I can play my 720 games in 15 years, when all it's servers are long gone, I won't spend a dime on that system.

 

[mik83kuu]

This makes it sounds like they co developed kinect 2 and reserved processing resources and bandwidth for kinect 2 standard. Not a kinect camera into the console or packaged in.

So 2013 release and wasn't there a rapport of microsoft terminating working together with prime soft in 2014.

Who was the MC?

 

[sankt-Antonio]

Then we're looking at a console the size of an AV receiver with an $800 price tag.

Imokaywiththis.jpeg

 

[Log4Girlz]

Then we're looking at a console the size of an AV receiver with an $800 price tag.

True...but hey again, I'm not dismissing the idea its a more traditionally designed machine. Now out of curiosity, let's say Alberto was right and MS was going "batshit crazy", but we don't know any details at this moment. What do you think is the top of the line, maximum amount of tech a traditionally designed console could muster next gen? How much RAM would be "just barely" possible?

 

[Plinko]

Xbox 720 will require an always-on internet connection as an anti-piracy measure.

"Anti-piracy measure." RIGHT.

Of course, that's how MS will market it but this is CLEARLY the anti-used game measure every rumor has hinted at. With each successive rumor mentioning this, I have to believe it's a guarantee that MS is going this route, which is disappointing.

Although I'm 100% against the anti-used game policy (I completely disagree with them taking away a consumer's rights to re-sell their property), this extra cut of cash MS will receive from each used game activation actually allows MS to put out a more powerful console because they can probably afford to take a loss.

 

[mugurumakensei]

Anyone who doesn't have an internet connection in 2013 has bigger problems than whether or not they can buy an Xbox.

Not really, there's still a significant portion of the US that lacks a broadband provider.

 

[Plinko]

Also: Always-on internet connection is just awful. As long as nobody explains to me how I can play my 720 games in 15 years, when all it's servers are long gone, I won't spend a dime on that system.

15? In a week they're taking down the XBLA servers for Hasbro Family Game Night, which only came out THREE years ago.

 

[kingkaiser]

Xbox 720 will require an always-on internet connection as an anti-piracy measure.

Well, if this turns out to be true than it will be interesting to see how they will handle connection failures with live during singleplayer gameplay. At best it will be like having dead batteries now and the game just pauses, at worst you will be kicked out of the game completely...oh fuck that shit

 

[drugstore_cowboy]

That sounds pretty horrible. :-(

Our living room is absolutely incompatible to Kinect. Our couch isn't that far away from the TV, and there's a table between them as well. For Wii, my wife and I always stand behind the couch. This isn't possible with Kinect, since it couldn't detect our legs and feet that way.

Similar problem here, the room is too small and the screen too large, motion controls just don't work.

 

[Plinko]

Anyone who doesn't have an internet connection in 2013 has bigger problems than whether or not they can buy an Xbox.

More than 20% of households don't even have access. Unless the government steps in and implements the nationwide broadband plan (which is highly doubtful) that number really isn't changing.

That doesn't mean they don't choose to have it--they don't even have the option. Sorry--you're wrong.

 

[Psychotext]

15? In a week they're taking down the XBLA servers for Hasbro Family Game Night, which only came out THREE years ago.

That would be EA surely... and it's not like it's anything other than par for the course for them. Hell, haven't they killed the servers for games only TWO years old?

 

[McHuj]

I could see a dual gpu setup when one is an integrated GPU inside an SOC.

Perhaps this is where the rumored xbox lite comes in. Both tiers of xbox shared the same SOC and can run live arcade games, but only the higher tier one has an extra GPU.


Also, I would say that people shouldn't judge this as equivalent to two PC GPU's. Maybe MS is creating some sort of exotic GPU like Xenos but taken to another level (more GPU functionality in the daugther die).


This is the third time this rumor has come up now.

 

[Hazaro]

But between what Alberto said and this rumor, I'm starting to think its possible they are going for two GPU's to get a larger than expected generational leap. Then again perhaps IGN was more on point and its a mild increase, or perhaps something closer to the Orbis rumors. Something more traditional.

It's more power efficient to run single GPU. New consoles are not going to be faster than a 7970 so there is no need for two. It's only worse.

 

[Darklord]

Net required? LOL no.

 

[Durante]

2 GPUs seems like a very strange choice for a console. More likely possibilities:

- the dev kit uses 2 GPUs to approximate the final performance (but that would mean that the expected final performance is above a GPU available when the devkit was designed)

- they somehow count "dual-core" stupidly, like the "quad-core" SGX GPUs

- they are really going with 2 separate dies, for some esoteric hardware design reason (better heat dissipation, less localized mb complexity, or something like that -- just throwing stuff out there, it doesn't make much sense to me either)

 

[Brad Grenz]

They want to get you sold on Xbox Live. If you're always logged in, it means you'll be more open to take part in online events. If the Xbox 3 becomes online-only, it is because they hold more value to the potential of extra Gold registrations than to an offline gamer which would be logical.

People also have to realize that just because a console isn't online doesn't mean it can't be connected to the internet. With the 360 there was the problem of no WiFi being built in as a barrier, that combined with a lack of motivation probably keeps a large number of those console offline. If WiFi becomes standard from day one and systems are sold as requiring an internet connection, the vast majority of users will make the needed adjustments. The number that literally can't, or won't, may be seen as insignificant.

 

[iceatcs]

With Kinect 2.0 as standard. There is no way it will be cheaper than other 2 systems.

 

[DonMigs85]

That would be EA surely... and it's not like it's anything other than par for the course for them. Hell, haven't they killed the servers for games only TWO years old?

I wonder when they'll finally take down Burnout Paradise? Maybe when the next Burnout releases?

 

[Brimstone]

What lol.