Ohh I wanna see a YT video of World Driver Championship...brb.
Edit: You're quite right, it does seem to push more polys than most other N64/PS1 games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoGBZ60Wx3E
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Virtua Fighter 3. What a badass game!
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Ohh I wanna see a YT video of World Driver Championship...brb.
Edit: You're quite right, it does seem to push more polys than most other N64/PS1 games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoGBZ60Wx3E
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
Huh, didn't actually know that.
I guess that would explain why the game has a more PlayStation-esque look to it, when compared to other games.
It's probably something that should have been employed more frequently, as I'd say the PlayStation has a better average output overall.
True, which is far (exponentially) more reasonable than Model 3. I still think it's a (very) tall ask to find comparable PC software for that time period, especially able to run at those sorts of speeds.
Sega was porting Model 2 games to PC around that time, and they were still heavily compromised even at their maximum settings (though the Saturn versions probably served as the base for the graphics). They were also very difficult to run smoothly.
I guess we are doing this again after all...
Spladam
Member
Great visual theme they have over there at the Supermodel forums, hahaha. They really ran with the whole supermodel thing.
I was rather obsessed with mame for a good 5 or six years. I had the roms, cabinet art, and history files for a good 300 different cabinets, all set up with controls and proper settings. Mame just kept changing so much between revisions and Rom sets.
nkarafo
Member
Yeah there are very few developers that were willing to do their own thing with the console. BOSS games (Stunt race 64, World Driver Championship) and Factor-5 did this but i'm not sure about others. And yes, In WDC you can witness some seams between polygons (rare but it's there) and they don't seem to be as stable as in 99% of N64 games. Still, they don't warp as badly as the PS1 so that's good. That's how they managed to squeeze more polygons. But you should take my word with a grain of salt, this is only what i could gather from various discussions and interviews.
Mousnis, you may find this pretty interesting.
I found some HQ footage of IMSA Racing for the unreleased 3DO / Panasonic M2 console. This is beta or alpha footage of an unfinished, unreleased game from 1996-1997 before M2 was canceled.
https://youtu.be/iFfOR0b7J0g?t=9m25s
Notice the high-polygon models & lighting in the car select screen and pretty impressive game play graphics. 640 x 480 @ 30fps. Also note, this was meant to be more of a sim than an flashy arcade racer.
The M2 was somewhere between Nintendo 64 and Dreamcast in power.
I found some HQ footage of IMSA Racing for the unreleased 3DO / Panasonic M2 console. This is beta or alpha footage of an unfinished, unreleased game from 1996-1997 before M2 was canceled.
https://youtu.be/iFfOR0b7J0g?t=9m25s
Notice the high-polygon models & lighting in the car select screen and pretty impressive game play graphics. 640 x 480 @ 30fps. Also note, this was meant to be more of a sim than an flashy arcade racer.
The M2 was somewhere between Nintendo 64 and Dreamcast in power.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
That's likely due to them being Saturn ports and architecture differences.
Pcs were more than double the strength of consoles.
nkarafo
Member
Oh yeah, i remember M2. It was indeed going to be more powerful than the N64.
Spladam
Member
We had a detailed discussion about this in the "which is more powerful PS1 or N64" thread.
WDC and Factor 5's Rouge Squadron really pulled out all the stops, and there are some interviews and behind the scenes out there with the devs talking about the hacks and work they did to push the system to it's limit to achieve what they wanted. Both of those games are stand outs. Most of my favorite N64 games were not the prettiest ones, and it's a shame Turok 2 in "HD" and Perfect Dark ran as crappy as they did.
And here's that real-time Dolphin M2 demo which was 60fps (even though the video isn't).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpj9tGOmxg
Pretty impressive. Imagine a 3D platformer with that kind of quality.
If Nintendo 64 had at least 2X (maybe 3X) the polygon performance, 8MB RAM, larger texture cache and a CD-ROM drive, you'd have an M2.
Yea, but the arcade boards at the time were way more than double the consoles' spec. They weren't remotely in the same sphere. We were happy to have pretty much anything running, at 240p, with 2D backgroups, at 30fps, etc. So long as the game was recognisable and played somewhat alike, that was pretty much all we could hope for.
With that said, my knowledge of the PC landscape prior to 1997 is kinda spotty, so I'm not going to act as absolute as I was in our Model 3 discussion. Are there PC titles from say 1994-1996 that I should be aware of? I vaguely remember Screamer being relatively impressive at the time on PC, but looking back on it, it appears to be far more inline with what the consoles were doing than what Model 2 and System 22 were.
Spladam
Member
Gorby Gorby Gorby, I want sources, I want you to show me the white papers that show which GPU's had more power than the Model 2, Model 3, or what ever. I'm a PC nut, I love them, going back to the C64 and the Intel 8088 machines, but dude... Consoles and Arcade boards were MADE to play games, with minimal buses and hardware directly linked and clocked together (what we call timing) on the PCB. PC's of the 90's had archaic Front side buses, that use a SEPARATE clock in the North Bridge to time everything together, it was a timing circuit called a PLL, phase lock loop, that would sync square waves together. This made PC's very hard to optimize for games, and made them weaker than the direct comparison of their CPU's and GPU's would seem. Even WITH direct comparison...
The Model 3 had T&L in 96, something you would not see on PC GPU's for another 2 1/2 to 3 years, and it's specs were better on paper than the 3Dfx 2. When the N64 launched, there was no home PC that could do what it did, Mario 64 would have been IMPOSSIBLE.
I can provide you with links for most of this, or you can use google.
nkarafo
Member
Yes, Screamer isn't that much better looking than an early PS1 game... It does have nice backgrounds but the pop-up is about as bad as early Saturn racers.
At the time, the state of the art for PCs was Quake. Which does have some very complex looking levels but the 3D models and objects were amazingly bad, low poly and jerking around the screen like some kind of stop motion monstrosities.
Model 2 was still a more advanced system, let alone Model 3...
Spladam
Member
Holy Shit the M2, I had no idea it was this powerful. Wow.
Some more footage of the IMSA racing beta in action. That music is killing me.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
You lost me when you said pc could not do Mario 64 in 1996 when the n64 could barely run quake.
As for the model TWO I think it's reasonable to say that the pc matched it. Heck bad ports aside the fact sega ported model 2 games is testament to that.
Also c64 isn't a pc.
Spladam
Member
Dude... How do you figure the c64 is not a PC, and why do you say things without any intelligent explanation? Show me the specs? Give me some links? Do something besides just say things. Did you read the rest of what I said? What do you have to say about the prehistoric buses that all perifials had to go through. What PC's are you talking about? What GPU's? Be specific. BE SPECIFIC. What CPU and GPU matched the Model 2?
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
You said pc couldn't do what the n64 could in 1996 and you're saying IM not using an intelligent explanation?
And if you really used computers back in the day as you claim you would no why I said c64 isn't a pc. Because it isn't. Heck even now in game Data bases they are separated.
Do I need to do a history lesson? I think you should no the difference between a pc, an atari, a c64, and a Amiga.
Pc even got model 2 PORTS and you are saying they can't run near model 2, holy...
I mean the m2 was comparable to the model 2 and the pc was much stronger than that.
Yea, Quake is pretty much where my knowledge of PC gaming begins, and the point where I feel PCs first made a real case for themselves over the 32bit-era consoles (DooM having done the same against 16bit consoles imo). Even then, it wouldn't be until GL Quake the following year, when Quake would actually look the way it would be remembered.
Sega porting Model 2 games to PC isn't really any sort of testament that it matched the arcade hardware. The same games were all also ported to the Saturn remember? (and games like Virtua Fighter 2 were nigh-impossible to get running as consistent as the Saturn version)
Plus the N64 didn't "barely run Quake". The Saturn barely ran Quake. The PlayStation apparently ran Quake really well when Lobotomy ported their Saturn engine over to test it. The N64 ran the original Quake really well, even having additional lighting that didn't exist in the PC original. Remember that in 1996, you're talking about Quake in software rendering. GL Quake was 1997.
The N64 (and PlayStation) did a pretty admirable job of running Quake 2.
nkarafo
Member
To be fair, Quake 1 on the N64 was quite a bad port. Even Quake 2 was a better port than this and that was a more demanding game. And even that wasn't a great port either considering how awesome the PS1 version was.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
Yes but to act like the n64 was more powerful than pc in 1996 is silly. The pc would have hit the m2 up as well, which is why I think that it's not far-fetched to say pc was better or on par with model 2.
Just emphasising I'm not talking about model 3 1996. But model 2
Spladam
Member
I don't know how to deal with you man. I ran BBS's on C64, 128 and the x86 8088's. You don't know how to intelligently express what you want to say. What you mean to say is that a C64 is not an IBM Compatible PC. What does PC stand for Gorby?
From the wiki page for PC:
Commodore PET in 1983 (at American Museum of Science and Energy), an early example of a personal computer.
I can't believe I have to explain this to you. You have ZERO technical knowlege of this, you just go by what you read on a gaming website or some shit.
I didn't say they couldn't run Model 2 ports. Dude, what is wrong with you?
Virtua Fighter 2 was not ported to PC until 97
Dude, check out this review of the *late 1997* PC port of Virtual On, a 1995 Model 2 game:
http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/virtual-on-cybertroopers-review/1900-2531777/
the review said:
I don't know what to tell you, man.
Why don't you ever just post something to back up the claims you make?
Everyone else brings you scans, youtube videos, screenshots, whatever they need to illustrate their point. You won't even give the name of the hardware components that you claim are/were Model 2 tier, let alone any games that we can go and then pit against Model 2 games. This is some of the worst arguing I've ever seen anyone do online, to the point where I'm starting to suspect it may just be attention.
If you know the PC was capable of these feats, then you must also know the names of something that will demonstrate them. It's time to put up tbh.
7DollarHagane
Banned
I think the PC eventually catches up to model 2 during the time when model 2 is still being put in new arcade cabs.
But at the time of Daytona USA and VF2, nothing on PC even comes close.
Virtua Fighter 2's arcade release was December 1994.
FX Fighter was a PC 3D one on one fighter released in June of 1995.
This may look laughable, but full 3D rendered characters with animation were actually not super common in PC games at the time, so it's hard to find a direct comparison with PC software in very early 1995. Quake didn't come out until late 1996.
It would be very hard to argue that at the time of VF2's release on Model 2 in arcade, that anything on the PC even came close to the quality of its models, textures, and its speed at 60fps matching the medium resolution arcade monitor.
Mechwarrior 2 is probably a decent example but the environments are super simple.
VF2 received a windows port but not until 1997 and it was the saturn version.
But at the time of Daytona USA and VF2, nothing on PC even comes close.
Virtua Fighter 2's arcade release was December 1994.
FX Fighter was a PC 3D one on one fighter released in June of 1995.
This may look laughable, but full 3D rendered characters with animation were actually not super common in PC games at the time, so it's hard to find a direct comparison with PC software in very early 1995. Quake didn't come out until late 1996.
It would be very hard to argue that at the time of VF2's release on Model 2 in arcade, that anything on the PC even came close to the quality of its models, textures, and its speed at 60fps matching the medium resolution arcade monitor.
Mechwarrior 2 is probably a decent example but the environments are super simple.
VF2 received a windows port but not until 1997 and it was the saturn version.
nkarafo
Member
Honestly, i have no idea how much powerful a PC could be in 1996. I suppose if you were rich enough to buy a MMX chip at the time, sure. But most people in 1996 had a non MMX Pentium 133-166 at best, without a decent 3D accelerator. A friend of mine had a PC at the time, a P133, and i remember vividly how jealous he was when he played Wipeout on the PS1.
Unfortunately, the N64 was very late in Europe, i got it in 1997 so i couldn't compare it. So yeah, PCs were more powerful then since the voodoo cards became the standard for PC gamers during that year.
Ninja Scooter
Member
I remember when FX Fighter was supposed to come to the N64 (called "Fighting Polygon" IIRC). Can't imagine how poorly that must have looked/ran.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
I think the PC eventually catches up to model 2 during the time when model 2 is still being put in new arcade cabs.
But at the time of Daytona USA and VF2, nothing on PC even comes close.
Virtua Fighter 2's arcade release was December 1994.
FX Fighter was a PC 3D one on one fighter released in June of 1995.
This may look laughable, but full 3D rendered characters with animation were actually not super common in PC games at the time, so it's hard to find a direct comparison with PC software in very early 1995. Quake didn't come out until late 1996.
It would be very hard to argue that at the time of VF2's release on Model 2 in arcade, that anything on the PC even came close to the quality of its models, textures, and its speed at 60fps matching the medium resolution arcade monitor.
Mechwarrior 2 is probably a decent example but the environments are super simple.
VF2 received a windows port but not until 1997 and it was the saturn version.
I'm talking about 1996, and fx fighter wasn't the best looking pc game when it came out as well.
In 1994 I think another home computer was still more powerful than pc. Iirc. But I'm talking 1996.
7DollarHagane
Banned
and 3D graphics technology was moving incredibly fast then.
The difference between early 1995 and late 1996 is the difference between Dark Forces/Duke 3D and Quake/ Mario 64.
Yet Model 2 hardware was doing what you see above in December 1994. Daytona released before VF2 in August 1993, so the hardware itself was probably set in mid 1993. Around the same time we were enjoying Secret Of Mana on SNES and PC had Doom and Day of the Tentacle.
nkarafo
Member
And in that year, the state of the art for PCs was Quake 1. You needed a top of the range PC to play this at 30 fps. In a lower resolution than 640x480.
A Model 2 could push more polygons than that, at higher resolution, at 60fps.
The PCs got a nice boost in 1997 though, with voodoo cards becoming the standard.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
If people are saying pc was stronger than the m2 and sega ported model 2 games on pc I'm curious what more info you need for pc being better or on par model 2 in 1996.
It's like telling me to post links if I claimed pc was more powerful than naomi in 2001 with people admitting the pc was stronger than the dreamcast in 2001. Makes no sense.
BTW you seem to still think I'm talking about the model 3.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
This entire argument is based on 1996 so not sure what you're saying?
7DollarHagane
Banned
so your argument is that top of the line 1996 PC hardware beat 1993 top of the line arcade hardware?
I guess you might be right?
Yea, if you take into account stuff like Dead or Alive hitting at the end of 96, or Moto Raid in 97, then it's reasonable to claim that the PC with a 3dFX card contends with Model 2. That seems like a pretty hollow point to grasp onto though, when you consider that Model 3 had already been sitting in the arcades for months by that point. It's like cheering that the Switch is more powerful than the PS3 and 360.
Model 2 first hit the arcades in 1993 with Daytona USA, and over the next few years wouldn't be replicable at home at all.
VF2 received a windows port but not until 1997 and it was the saturn version.
Whilst VF2 on PC was based on the Saturn version, characters based more on the Model 2 character models were a graphical option (as shown in your screenshot). The Saturn models were far simpler.
Actually enabling those models on any PC hardware of the time would bring the game's performance crashing to embarrassing levels though. I remember trying with like an Athlon and a TNT2 and it still made my PC scream.
nkarafo
Member
Yea. I'd put the start somewhere around GL Quake.
There's literally nothing I can think of prior that would qualify.
Spladam
Member
In 94, I had a 468DX2 @66Mhz that I built myself with a Diamond Stealth 3D-3000 S3 Virge (awful accelerator)
In 96 I had a Pentium 200 I bought off the shelf with a Diamond Monster 3D Voodoo II, I spent an embarrassing amount of money on that machine before it was done. That machine was BOSS. I got an N64 on launch day, and it blew my mind. I think you are talking out of your ass Gorby.
Here are the specs for the N64
I can't find the specs for my Diamond, but I happen to know the N64 blows them away, as does it's CPU, which was capable of 64 bit floating point, in addition to all being on the same bus and not having to go through the embarrassing FSB on the Pentuim socket 5. Which had like an 86Mhz PLL timer.
nkarafo
Member
Are you sure it wasn't a voodoo 1? The voodoo 2 was released much later afaik. A voodoo 2 would crush the N64.
Spladam
Member
Yeah, I think you're right, it must have been.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
I didn't say top of the line but ok
Have you played these ports? I have. They aren't on-par, even on far later PC hardware.
With each post, he pretty much just clarifies how little he knows about the arcade hardware at the time. Like... if you need to ask about a PS1 or N64 versus System 22, then you just don't know what you're talking about, and shouldn't be discussing the subject.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
Most of them are Saturn ports which the pc is more powerful then.
Also later pc hardware? By then pc was tagging the dreamcast. You don't think it best the model 2.???
Oh boy.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
Literally Saturn ports with the pc much more powerful, but cant run with model 2? Heck even you said your pc knowledge is limited. Do you understand the pc was ahead of the Saturn by a good margin? Look at some of the gs reviews of pc games in 1996 and you will see graphics that imo are on par though pc has some weaknesses.
Virtual On is not a Saturn port. Read the 1997 PC Virtual On review linked above for an actual contemporary account of running the game on high-end PC hardware.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
TheGorby still at it?
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
Anyway the original point was consoles were no were close to pc and if you wanted to get as close as possible to arcade hardware at home pc was your only option. That was the original point pages ago.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
It's like the great console war of 1996 never ended.
The Gorby Congressmanz
Banned
On an unaccelerated card.
Anyway the point was PC was the closest one could get to arcade hardware at the time. That was the whole point of comparing pc to the arcade. Consoles were no in the same league as pc.
Spladam
Member
Truth. A time warp has put me back on Usenet in 2017.