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Was Final Fantasy Tactics Matsuno's swan song?
- Thread starter Diablos
- Start date
Like I've said in another thread, Matsuno's FFXII is his biggest but not quite the best - I love it to bits but my disappointment with it's mostly that it's not a Vagrant Story 2 despite the six years gap, the VS like art style, introduction, sound effects, battle stances et al. His zenith is clearly Vagrant Story.
That said, I'd piece some soundbites from both sides that I agree:
A) FFXII is too ambitious and the man behind it was too perfectionist (for better or worse) - there is so much detail, extra work done to art style and world design that the story and/or gameplay ends up lacking. I see FFXII as Matsuno's Shenmue.
(aka Rich world detail and art style, new idea of gameplay and so much attention to detail versus tepid story, annoying at times control with boring bits in the middle and of course the fact that the titles seemed cut by half).
Of course, all that led to his downfall and he could be projecting himself as a vagrant now.
B) I'd say ego's played into it :- the famous designer's works usually start small and grow into greater expectations with each title till the bubble pops and the designer's bundled out of the company just to re-form into a 'small independent studio' where they're left to rot. This is when I laugh at them being a gamer and look forward to the next-generation designers who will take their mentors' ideas forward.
I'd take the easy route and use Sega, which used to be a hotbed of talent. Of course management didn't help one bit but there's the whole 'died into shit' kind of thing here...
Okamoto: Sonic -> Nights -> Sonic Adventure -> Artoon -> Blinx HAHA
Yuji Naka: Sonic -> Nights -> Sonic Adventure 2 -> Billy Hatcher -> Shadow the Hedgehog -> What company is he in again?
Yu Suzuki: Afterburner -> Outrun -> Virtua Fighter -> Shenmue -> Shenmue Online HAHA
Mizuguchi: Sega Rally -> Space Channel 5 -> Rez -> Q Entertainment -> Ninety Nine Nights and Lumines sellouts HAHA
Half of old AM2: Daytona -> Genki -> Botched Sega Rally port -> Tokyo Highway Racer (which isn't so bad, but what a detour!)
(I might as well drag the corpses out...)
UGA: Space Channel 5 -> Rez -> Rub Rabbits -> Astro Boy PS2 -> Sonic Riders OH NOES
Sonic Team: Sonic -> Nights -> Sonic Adventure 2 -> Shadow the Hedgehog -> Sonic X360 HAHAHA
Nagoshi: Daytona -> Spikeout -> Super Monkey Ball -> Yakuza -> ???
No, really, I shouldn't laugh, but as a gamer I'm quite demanding of my designers and I just feel like kicking Sega when it's down ;p
That said, I'd piece some soundbites from both sides that I agree:
A) FFXII is too ambitious and the man behind it was too perfectionist (for better or worse) - there is so much detail, extra work done to art style and world design that the story and/or gameplay ends up lacking. I see FFXII as Matsuno's Shenmue.
(aka Rich world detail and art style, new idea of gameplay and so much attention to detail versus tepid story, annoying at times control with boring bits in the middle and of course the fact that the titles seemed cut by half).
Of course, all that led to his downfall and he could be projecting himself as a vagrant now.
B) I'd say ego's played into it :- the famous designer's works usually start small and grow into greater expectations with each title till the bubble pops and the designer's bundled out of the company just to re-form into a 'small independent studio' where they're left to rot. This is when I laugh at them being a gamer and look forward to the next-generation designers who will take their mentors' ideas forward.
I'd take the easy route and use Sega, which used to be a hotbed of talent. Of course management didn't help one bit but there's the whole 'died into shit' kind of thing here...
Okamoto: Sonic -> Nights -> Sonic Adventure -> Artoon -> Blinx HAHA
Yuji Naka: Sonic -> Nights -> Sonic Adventure 2 -> Billy Hatcher -> Shadow the Hedgehog -> What company is he in again?
Yu Suzuki: Afterburner -> Outrun -> Virtua Fighter -> Shenmue -> Shenmue Online HAHA
Mizuguchi: Sega Rally -> Space Channel 5 -> Rez -> Q Entertainment -> Ninety Nine Nights and Lumines sellouts HAHA
Half of old AM2: Daytona -> Genki -> Botched Sega Rally port -> Tokyo Highway Racer (which isn't so bad, but what a detour!)
(I might as well drag the corpses out...)
UGA: Space Channel 5 -> Rez -> Rub Rabbits -> Astro Boy PS2 -> Sonic Riders OH NOES
Sonic Team: Sonic -> Nights -> Sonic Adventure 2 -> Shadow the Hedgehog -> Sonic X360 HAHAHA
Nagoshi: Daytona -> Spikeout -> Super Monkey Ball -> Yakuza -> ???
No, really, I shouldn't laugh, but as a gamer I'm quite demanding of my designers and I just feel like kicking Sega when it's down ;p
charlequin
Banned
Diablos said:
Uh... yes?
I don't mean Nintendo literally bringing him in as an employee of EAD as some sort of Mistwalker/Crystal Chronicles-esque deal where Nintendo brokers him into a position of developing a game using the staff of one of the numerous B-list development houses in Japan and Nintendo funding/publishing. This is the most likely scenario that could result in him working on a Wii game (as he apparently is now) and is not in any particular way unbelievable -- Nintendo's shown interest in setting up these kinds of deals in the past, and Matsuno is a great opportunity to get an almost-A-list game director at a bargain basement price.
charlequin
Banned
KyanMehwulfe said:
I'm not that bugged by Vayne's characterization. I don't think he really needs more motivation -- his family situation and ambition is sketched out fine for my purposes. I think he just needed to be on screen more. All the successful past FF villains are confronted multiple times, stay in the forefront of your mind. I like that XII mixes it up a little bit, but the party has almost no experience with him in person before the end -- it'd have been nice to find ways to bring him on more.
To me Vaan and Ashe needed a little kick to really work. Vaan's small-r relationship to Ashe is clearly the most important reason for him to be in the party but I felt like they needed an extra heart-to-heart and maybe a little more casual development -- actually I think it would've been really nice to have them interact consistently awkwardly in the full party but have these interesting deep conversations in private.
This following paragraph has only FFX spoilers and no FFXII spoilers whatsoever, if anyone cares.
We actually know a ton of subtle character stuff about Lulu: she grew up as an orphan and became Yuna's de facto older sister. She had a weird relationship with Wakka both because he was kind of Yuna's other surrogate sibling but also because she started dating his brother Chappu at a young age only to have him die as a Crusader. She's a goth both because her boyfriend died and because she lost a previous summoner. All of that is established textually but also supported by character scenes that show her acting out those feelings before the player learns about it. Kimahri's kind of a throwaway, but that's because he's just a Klingon.
I think the most disappointing thing about FFXII is pretty much what you talked about, Charlequin. I don't agree with people that say, "THERE IS NO STORY LOL," or, "IT'S BAD BECAUSE THERE IS NO MAIN CHARACTER LOL," but I definitely see major problems with (particularly) Penelo's development. She
I think Basch might have been intentionally one dimensional. Even in the ending
Obvious attention was paid to Balthier and Fran, though I think Fran has some mystifying characteristics intentionally left vague. I think Ashe is pretty well done. I don't really see a major problem with Vaan other than I think his motivation is a little shaky-- I would have been fine with him just being all, "Hey, I'm coming too because I want to see the world," but that scene with him and Ashe (lol Vasche for three character mix. Vaschieranelo for the entire party omg lol) just doesn't make sense to me.
Vaschieranelo is a much looser group than Tidyunakkaluhrion, but I'm not sure I necessarily see a problem with that...I just think you need to keep things consistent if you are planning on what Matsuno plans on.
I still think it is by far the most interesting story even if it is not necessarily the most directly engaging (of FF).
serves little purpose in the story. She could have been replaced with anyone and there would be little difference.
I think Basch might have been intentionally one dimensional. Even in the ending
he seems extremely devoted to that same particular cause that he had been going on and on about throughout the entire game.
Obvious attention was paid to Balthier and Fran, though I think Fran has some mystifying characteristics intentionally left vague. I think Ashe is pretty well done. I don't really see a major problem with Vaan other than I think his motivation is a little shaky-- I would have been fine with him just being all, "Hey, I'm coming too because I want to see the world," but that scene with him and Ashe (lol Vasche for three character mix. Vaschieranelo for the entire party omg lol) just doesn't make sense to me.
What answers are you trying to find? Your ****ing problem is never really explained ANYWAY, you nitwit.
Vaschieranelo is a much looser group than Tidyunakkaluhrion, but I'm not sure I necessarily see a problem with that...I just think you need to keep things consistent if you are planning on what Matsuno plans on.
I still think it is by far the most interesting story even if it is not necessarily the most directly engaging (of FF).
KyanMehwulfe
Member
re: charlequin
On a related note, even though I just finished a hard-core first playthrough with tons of grinding, I'm finding it really hard to ignore all of that on my new fast 2nd playthrough. I keep wanting to hunt or sit around and grind, even though my goal is to chain together story scenes as quickly and seemlessly as possible. I figure that's sort of a testament to the gameplay (for those of us that like it at least).
Yeah Basch is likely more akin to Kimahri. He has some strong development in the first few hours, but after that he's really just a sort of "Guardian" (like Kimahri) until the very end, where again he has a couple awesome scenes. Sadly not much in between though. Still nice quality for when he does get more involved, but otherwise he's just there for the odd piece of wisdom or such.
Something else that I'm enjoying more now on my 2nd [quick] playthrough is Vaan's dry humor of being a sort of... newbie, for lack of a better word. Whether using Basch's name with Larsa right after they said "no names", the "We never knew you were a Princess"-"I noticed" scene in Sochen, or "Don't interupt me Vaan" scene at Pharos - he always seems to be making unexperienced and blunt mistakes that oddly sort of makes him a bit more likable.
Also, in regards to Vayne, the one thing I did like was that he was not a certain villain for the whole story. There was always a question of his true motives and whether he really was evil. Perhaps that gave him less time to be hated than, say, Kefka or Luca Blight (Suiko2) who we got to brew our hate over for most of the game, and in that regard, it would be hard for Vayne to compare to the emotions those 2 evoke. But at the same time, he had a level of intrigue that few villains seem to have. Definitely more akin to a... Dycedarg, maybe? There were always those little hints like the smirk at the end of his Rabanastre speak, but because of events like that speech, there was a nice level of uncertaintity. Even more so with the small teasers about his brothers (in the scenes with his father or the Judges) and how he was involved with their deaths.
Speaking of which, those scenes were likely some of my favorite in the game. The Emperor's room with the beautiful vista out the window was quite stunning. The scene with Gabranth having to kill to prove his loyalty was one I found especially powerful.
Something else that I'm enjoying more now on my 2nd [quick] playthrough is Vaan's dry humor of being a sort of... newbie, for lack of a better word. Whether using Basch's name with Larsa right after they said "no names", the "We never knew you were a Princess"-"I noticed" scene in Sochen, or "Don't interupt me Vaan" scene at Pharos - he always seems to be making unexperienced and blunt mistakes that oddly sort of makes him a bit more likable.
Also, in regards to Vayne, the one thing I did like was that he was not a certain villain for the whole story. There was always a question of his true motives and whether he really was evil. Perhaps that gave him less time to be hated than, say, Kefka or Luca Blight (Suiko2) who we got to brew our hate over for most of the game, and in that regard, it would be hard for Vayne to compare to the emotions those 2 evoke. But at the same time, he had a level of intrigue that few villains seem to have. Definitely more akin to a... Dycedarg, maybe? There were always those little hints like the smirk at the end of his Rabanastre speak, but because of events like that speech, there was a nice level of uncertaintity. Even more so with the small teasers about his brothers (in the scenes with his father or the Judges) and how he was involved with their deaths.
Speaking of which, those scenes were likely some of my favorite in the game. The Emperor's room with the beautiful vista out the window was quite stunning. The scene with Gabranth having to kill to prove his loyalty was one I found especially powerful.
On a related note, even though I just finished a hard-core first playthrough with tons of grinding, I'm finding it really hard to ignore all of that on my new fast 2nd playthrough. I keep wanting to hunt or sit around and grind, even though my goal is to chain together story scenes as quickly and seemlessly as possible. I figure that's sort of a testament to the gameplay (for those of us that like it at least).
jarrod said:ROX! Nagoshi's simply untouchable, while Naka, Suzuki and Miz all went down the toilet.
Also, I think you mean Oshima (not Okamoto) being Sonic's creator who formed Artoon. Artoon's on the upswing too with Yoshi's Island DS and Blue Dragon fwiw.
Yes, that's whom I was referring to, Oshima. However, my ??? indicates that he'll take the fall for a future title that's even more ambitious than Yakuza having had a good bite out of the cherry.
And of course, I'd like to make the point that there are other talented individuals that really need to have their light shined on them, so that's why although it may be harsh, I'm not too sad Matsuno's gone since it gives another designer, perhaps Ito, a bigger chance to shine. Nagoshi for Sega's a good example - by stepping out of Yu Suzuki's shadow and becoming his own man, he's redefined badass-ness.
In FF's case I'd say that the Nomuras, Kitases and Hamazus have re-done, and out-done then Amanos, Sakaguchis and Uematsus (before I get shirtfronted this is the truth if you follow FF fandom these days.)
But back to FFXII - I have no problems with the story. I like it a lot. Unfortunately for myself I needed to play through the story twice (JP/US) to catch little details and side events that I didn't notice the first time around - this made me appreciate what's there even more.
So, guys, whatever happened to a summary of events, people and etc. aka FFT? I really loved how that was structured (sans FFT translation, which is crap) so I was disappointed to see the beastiry instead. Not sure if the plot summary would have taken away much of the nuance in the Matsuno title.
Sort of - we get to see the Judges' rise to power after defeating them and having them appear in the beastiry, the more you beat the game the more its world opens...
KyanMehwulfe
Member
It's not quite that slow. Those numbers seemed high so I just went and double checked. Most every world map load (Army, Shops, etc) takes 4-5 seconds, and the longest load I could find was about 7 seconds for the load between Dispatch Units and the actual Battle Map. It's inflated a bit by the aesthetic presentation of the map name or the view of the map, but that's technically not loading time - the game as a whole suffers from that sort of creative design (especially spells).Cedille said:
Also, if you turn your Disc Speed option to Fast (PS Drivers menu), it takes about 1-2 seconds off all the times, so about 3-4 seconds for most loads and 6 seconds being the highest I could time.
charlequin
Banned
Y2Kevbug11 said:
I think these things go together.
Vaan's issue is supposed to be that he feels like he doesn't have a purpose in life after his brother dies and he's torn between running away to an unrealistic life as a sky pirate and taking revenge on the Empire. He gets a good taste of both in XII and what should be happening is that we get scenes between him and Penelo thinking about his desire for revenge and whether adventuring or returning to a quiet life in Rabanastre is in his future. It wouldn't take much -- maybe two or three scenes in the whole game -- but these missing makes both characters feel more pointless than they really are, I think.
This is another thing I think would've been shown off better by knocking him up against someone else. Again, there's a great bit right at the beginning with him and Vaan but instead of seeing other people react to how wooden and driven he is (and
potentially exploring the contrast between him and Gabranth in more detail[/spoiler.)
Both come off better in a second viewing of the story (seeing their subtle references to things revealed later on) but again there were bits I wanted to see more of --
It's got the best plot, I think. X wins for best plot-integration-with-character-development. Basically every one of my problems with XII's story is of the form "I like what I know about this a lot and wish I could experience a more in-depth version of it."
KyanMehwulfe: I agree with pretty much everything you said. I like those choices in developing both Vaan and Vayne.
Ah. I ripped it to my hard drive and (started) playing it with ePSXe, that seemed to improve that aspect quite a bit.
Both come off better in a second viewing of the story (seeing their subtle references to things revealed later on) but again there were bits I wanted to see more of --
more about how Balthier actually relates to others in Archadia, more about Fran's reasons for leaving and meeting up with Balthier, etc.
It's got the best plot, I think. X wins for best plot-integration-with-character-development. Basically every one of my problems with XII's story is of the form "I like what I know about this a lot and wish I could experience a more in-depth version of it."
KyanMehwulfe: I agree with pretty much everything you said. I like those choices in developing both Vaan and Vayne.
Cedille said:
Ah. I ripped it to my hard drive and (started) playing it with ePSXe, that seemed to improve that aspect quite a bit.
charlequin said:
I can't believe how Fran and Penelo had like absolutely no role in the story whatsoever. And this is a Matsuno game. Other FF's have had weak main chars, but they ended up doing at least something memorable, even if it doesn't hold that much weight. FFXII takes useless chars to a brand new low.
Shouta
Member
charlequin said:
While Kimahri doesn't have any huge development (you do get some) for himself, you do get a great look at his people in both FFX and FFX-2. In a way, that is a part of his character development. It's atypical development IMO and a lot of folks don't really see it right away.
As for FFXII's story on the whole, I'm much like you. I do like some of the elements and concepts presented in the game. I felt it was marred by poorly developed characters, awful plot structure, plot events, and, on occassion, lack or misplaced emphasis though. I felt the same thing about FFT. The only Matsuno game that I've felt handled the story well was Tactics Ogre.
charlequin
Banned
Shouta said:
This is true. I was implicitly leaving X-2 out for this argument since were Matsuno directing a XII-2 all bets would be off in terms of how developed the cast would be at the end of it.
I actually don't have almost any problems with the plot. Like, the outline of events (and intended resonances and themes connected to them) works fine for me, I even like the
script-flipping Occuria turn
Shouta
Member
charlequin said:
As I mentioned in the offical thread, I thought the plot had too many events that were too disconnected to the main purpose of the story. The concept of the plot is not bad and fairly typical for a FF game but it comes out of left field and doesn't really relate what occurs up to that point because there are no events that foreshadow or really lead to it. There was also a distinct lack of active events that the party was involved in. There's a lot of stuff that just occurs to fill the void rather than to advance the story IMO.
AdmiralViscen
Banned
I've got FF12 in shrink wrap right next to me, this is the first I've heard of the plot falling apart. ****, the hope of an awesome plot is what made me pick it up after the horrible demo.
You guys better be wrong.
You guys better be wrong.
Cedille said:
Matsuno was too busy working on FF11 and FF12 to concentrate on the overall development of FFTA. Just because he created the law system doesn't mean he has to be credited for how much of a failure the execution of it was in the final product.
In the end, only the director or game designer should be credited for a game if you are looking at giving the credit to one single person. Giving Matsuno credit for FFTA is like giving Sakaguchi credit for FF7.
Story quality is subjective, especially if you only base it on cut-scenes which some GAFers tend to do. I will go on the record now and say that you will likely not have any issues with the story, and if you do, they will likely be very near the end of the game. But what does that matter if you've enjoyed the first 70-80 hours?
JayDubya said:
Erm Ogre Battle (GBA)? Even if you are refering to Tactics Ogre: Knights of Lodis, Matsuno had no hand in that game as it was developed by Quest.
Pellham said:
I didn't say we should give Matsuno credit for FFTA. I just wanted to say Matsuno was more involved in FFTA than you might think. Maybe my quotation or something is wrong.
Btw, it's a small thing, but Matsuno didn't work on FF11. He worked on the Playonline viewer and a MMORPG which became a basis of FF12 later.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
I believe it's not that the plot falls apart but rather that it concludes too sharply. "Falls apart" implies a mess, and I'd disagree that it becomes that - it still makes understandable and logical sense. It's just that the plot gets to a certain point and it tries to conclude in too few events (the events themselves are still of the same quality of the rest of the game).
Furthermore, the effect that the sharp climax and conclusion have isn't on the plot design itself per se - I still think the plot is sound - but rather it affects how the gamer perceives the plot because of the pacing. We go from the story pacing of a 80 hour RPG to that of a 10 hour RPG. So that's why those whom are fond of the plot can still remain positive, yet those who don't care for the plot are left without the storytelling and pacing that may of been their savior thus far.
Stronger pacing and more relentless storytelling is what would of improved the climax and conclusion. The plot was solid enough that any improvements in the plot still would of been affected by the pace in which it was being told at that point in the game.
Furthermore, the effect that the sharp climax and conclusion have isn't on the plot design itself per se - I still think the plot is sound - but rather it affects how the gamer perceives the plot because of the pacing. We go from the story pacing of a 80 hour RPG to that of a 10 hour RPG. So that's why those whom are fond of the plot can still remain positive, yet those who don't care for the plot are left without the storytelling and pacing that may of been their savior thus far.
Stronger pacing and more relentless storytelling is what would of improved the climax and conclusion. The plot was solid enough that any improvements in the plot still would of been affected by the pace in which it was being told at that point in the game.
Fady K said:Good to hear, being 70% through the game, im loving the plot, though the gaffers tell me im at a point where it starts to fall apart! I hope i end up loving it
Don't worry about it "falling apart."
When I was playing, the gaf hate squad said it fell apart like 10 hours before I even went into the thread to ask. Enjoy.
TheJollyCorner
Member
does anyone else imagine "Stairway to Heaven" playing while reading this song? Especially the flute part?