In Frank Miller's Batverse, it's no bloody secret.
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Was Frank Miller always secretly shit?
- Thread starter foxtrot3d
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In Frank Miller's Batverse, it's no bloody secret.
secret? lol
lol
Shamrock7r
Member
The problem with Frank Miller is he is a one trick writer. He writes the same personas in the same style with a different visual. At one time it was refreshing (Sin City, DKR), but it became tired and stale, and he was never able to adapt or grow as a writer.
shadyspace
Banned
It's not a secret in any universe. Miller understood that better than anyone.
The Dark Knight Returns eats a lot of shit for it's role in inspiring a lot of shit that came later. It's basically the Resident Evil 4 of comicbooks in that regard. I think it's a really good book, if hard to separate from Miller's politics at times. His Daredevil stuff is, as has already been said, pretty good as well.
So basically, no.
So basically, no.
fallengorn
Bitches love smiley faces
Say what you will about Frank Miller, but don't you dare besmirch Mazzucchelli.
CaptainofIndustry
Member
Born Again might be my favorite comic arc of all time. The story and artwork are phenomenal. Love his Daredevil work.
Naked Snake
Member
I thought this would be an MGS thread.
I don't find this to be true at all. Have you read any Martha Washington? 300? Ronin? Not everything he writes is gritty noir. He worked on a lot of "fun" Marvel comics back in the day.
Interesting.
I don't actually see another book that better compares to RE4 in terms of revolutionizing what came before while inspiring a controversial future in the medium.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I think he's speaking more broadly about the Dark/Iron Age of Comics, which TDKR (and Watchmen) basically kicked off.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
did you just say David Mazzuchelli's art is basic? what? those are fighting words. get back here and clarify.
Watchmen
It doesn't have enough crosshatcing or cool poses. Why can't he draw like Jim Lee?
BuddyJoeHooker
Member
Depends on what Batman you like.
It's more difficult to go back and read it after years of exposure to other Batman books, then to read it closer to it's release.
Poodlestrike
Banned
They both played a pretty big part, though.
I'm not denying it. He just didn't seem aware of its existence, tho
The thing is, his political bents were always really obvious, but everyone at the time assumed they were satire
Not really. I don't see how you reconcile The Dark Knight, especially its portrayal of Reagan, with Miller being a right wing loon.
shadyspace
Banned
Yup. I still don't know what the hell happened to the guy who wrote that stuff.
Time? Age? Crazy liberals breaking the poor man?
Like anybody at this point isn't aware of Watchmen.
I still hold that Dark Knight Returns fits the analogy better, though, because while Watchmen definitely set a bar with it's tone shift, Returns more directly influenced the DCU and it's characters.
Gambit 1138
Banned
Yes and so was Alan Moore
Oh really?
here we go
The analogy is pretty ridiculous any way you slice it. Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen changed the entire comics industry forever, and their influence is still felt today across all genres and even in other media. RE4 didn't have anywhere near that kind of impact industry-wide, let alone outside of it. I would argue that gaming is not old enough to have works comparable to TDKR and Watchmen, especially since the bulk of their impact was due to their deconstructions of decades-old industry conventions and archetypes. RE4 was a refinement of what preceded it, not a deconstruction of it.
XANDER CAGE
Member
I personally hold this as one of the greatest comic sequences of all times, so... no, I don't think so.
Everything with the intercutting of televisions in The Dark Knight Returns is incredible. His politics may be shitty, but I don't think that's a reason to write off all of his art as "always secretly shit." Like, of course Sin City is a right wing hardcore individualist fantasy. That's, for the most part, detective fiction and a lot of film noir for you.
Now, Holy Terror and a good decade or so or his Batman work? Yeah, that's shitty. Not even secretly, it's completely overtly terrible.
Everything with the intercutting of televisions in The Dark Knight Returns is incredible. His politics may be shitty, but I don't think that's a reason to write off all of his art as "always secretly shit." Like, of course Sin City is a right wing hardcore individualist fantasy. That's, for the most part, detective fiction and a lot of film noir for you.
Now, Holy Terror and a good decade or so or his Batman work? Yeah, that's shitty. Not even secretly, it's completely overtly terrible.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Year One and his work on Daredevil is still phenomenal. As for his artwork, I always thought his work was rather ugly except for Sin City. I LOVE his artwork and style on Sin City. Even if the writing is merely okay on it, his high contrast style of art on the book was a huge influence on me whenever I do my own art.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Miller's trying to take shots at everything in that book. Reagan is an idiot not because he's a right-winger, but because he's an ex-actor who can't think. Superman is stupid because he's following orders from a senile old ex-actor. Green Arrow is stupid because he's an idealistic burnout, just like Carrie Kelly's stupid parents.
Basically, he's lashing out at the people mishandling the right-wing power fantasy. It shouldn't be Reagan, or Superman. It should be Batman (i.e. Frank Miller/Marv).
c'mon now.
Alright, what I mean by "basic" has no bearing on the artistic value of the pictures. The pictures themselves along with the style is pretty fantastic, what I mean by basic is that they are used in a straightfoward "basic" fashion. It's not a critique of the art but the usage of the art by Frank Miller when combined with his words. Basically, a lot of the wordplay is made redundant by the art, the old "show don't tell adage." And them there are the times he fails to use the art to capitalize on the word play.
Barkley's Justice
Member
Was Stan Lee always secretly shit?
THINK ABOUT IT!
THINK ABOUT IT!
Poodlestrike
Banned
It's the combination of the two that's really potent, though; ultimately, those two comics basically shaped the next decade for the entire industry. Everybody wanted to emulate TDKR and Watchmen, and nobody had any idea how. Thus, the Dark Age, and the rise of Liefeld.
shadyspace
Banned
There's a more legitimate discussion to be had there than there is regarding Miller.
With you more or less until the last line. Miller doesn't have a particularly positive view of Batman, either. TDKR is a satire of the entire weird-ass superhero phenomenon as Miller saw it. He's always been a right-of-center individualist, but TDKR is not a very controversial book in that regard. It's not until he hits Sin City that something becomes very evidently wrong with the man's worldview, at least as related by his writing.
Kirby 4ever
Foreigners.
After the London massacre in Miracleman, violence in comics had nowhere to go but down into parody.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I dunno, I think he does. Marv is just a more indulgent version of the Batman from Dark Knight Returns. And I'm fairly certain he identifies with those two more than a little bit.
I think Daredevil resonates like it does because Miller is still young and figuring his shit out with these power fantasies. If he'd gotten that job even 5 years later, you'd have something that much more closely resembles The Goddamn Daredevil than what we actually ended up getting.
Gambit 1138
Banned
Yea there big claim to fame was writing cynical dark bullshit that appealed to the sensibilities of juvenile gen x'ers. They are not in the same league as real talent like Grant Morrison, Brian K Vaughn or even Jonathan Hickman
I see.
Edit: Man I like Hickman too but you can't compare him to Moore or even Morrison.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
stop
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