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Was Hiroshima a war crime?

Were the nuclear attacks on Japan war crimes?

  • Yes

    Votes: 158 58.5%
  • No

    Votes: 92 34.1%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 20 7.4%

  • Total voters
    270

FunkMiller

Gold Member
And let us remember that the Hague Convention of 1899 already defined that the attack or bombardment of undefended towns or habitations was forbidden. The USA signed this convention.

But as already stated, Hague did not account for air attack. If arguing the US’s actions from a purely legal standpoint, they broke no existing laws or treaties regarding warfare. And it was, of course, the Germans and the Japanese who started major air bombings of civilians.
 

winjer

Gold Member
But as already stated, Hague did not account for air attack. If arguing the US’s actions from a purely legal standpoint, they broke no existing laws or treaties regarding warfare. And it was, of course, the Germans and the Japanese who started major air bombings of civilians.

Only because air planes didn't exist in 1899. But the concept of bombing civilian targets is valid, regardless of method.

Here is article 25, from the Hague convention, signed by the USA.

The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were clearly an attack and a bombing, on civilian towns.

Also, might I point to article 23, point e:

To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a nature to cause superfluous injury

It's plainly obvious that an attack on a civilian city is superfluous injury.
 
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The Nuremberg trials accounted for the mass killing of civilians as Crimes Against Humanity and saw those, relating to the Nazi treatment of foreign civilians, as war crimes. So in this context it’s difficult to justify the nukes against Japanese civilians as anything different.
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
Only because air planes didn't exist in 1899. But the concept of bombing civilian targets is valid, regardless of method.

And, as stated, the Germans and the Japanese started mass airborne bombings of civilian populations. And Hague Convention cannot be used to 100% state Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes, for many reasons too long to go into here.

I‘d like to see a little more analysis of the campaigns carried out by the Germans and the Japanese to be honest.

This entire thread seems geared to just criticising the morality of the US at the end of WW2, rather than even beginning to appreciate the context of why the atomic bombs were dropped.

There’s an awful lot of people in this thread who clearly have no idea what happened during the Second World War to lead up to the bombing of Hiroshima.

The whole damn thing was ugly, stupid, nasty, evil and horrific, with Hiroshima and Nagasaki being the bookmark. But the horrors inflicted by the Germans and the Japanese FAR outweigh any moral failings on the part of the western allies, including the use of atomic weapons.

That’s why we shouldn’t so easily judge that a war crime was committed. Context is everything, and this is the last time I’m going to try and remind everyone of that.
 
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winjer

Gold Member
And, as stated, the Germans and the Japanese started mass airborne bombings of civilian populations. And Hague Convention cannot be used to 100% state Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes, for many reasons too long to go into here.

I‘d like to see a little more analysis of the campaigns carried out by the Germans and the Japanese to be honest.

This entire thread seems geared to just criticising the morality of the US at the end of WW2, rather than even beginning to appreciate the context of why the atomic bombs were dropped.

There’s an awful lot of people in this thread who clearly have no idea what happened during the Second World War to lead up to the bombing of Hiroshima.

The Allied fought the Axis to end their tyrannical rule, not to try to overmatch their war crimes.

And no this thread is not about criticizing the morality of the USA as a whole.
Like I posted in a few posts before, the decision to use nuclear weapons was a political one, made mostly by Truman.
So if there was someone to sit in court for war crimes, it would be Truman. Not the whole of the USA and not even the military.

And yes, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are well within the crimes of war of the time.
The real reason why Truman wasn't held at court, was because he was the President of one of the major winning countries.
 

FunkMiller

Gold Member
And yes, the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are well within the crimes of war of the time.
The real reason why Truman wasn't held at court, was because he was the President of one of the major winning countries.

Look, I’ve already detailed why the use of the bomb was not in contravention of any war conventions. I’m not going to repeat myself. Hell, even the Japanese acknowledged this in the 60s.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Look, I’ve already detailed why the use of the bomb was not in contravention of any war conventions. I’m not going to repeat myself. Hell, even the Japanese acknowledged this in the 60s.

But you have several articles in a Convention, signed by the USA, clearly stating against attacks on civilians.
 
Look, I’ve already detailed why the use of the bomb was not in contravention of any war conventions. I’m not going to repeat myself. Hell, even the Japanese acknowledged this in the 60s.
Please add a link to read where the Japanese acknowledged in the 60s they deserve to be nuked twice
 

Heimdall_Xtreme

Jim Ryan Fanclub's #1 Member
There is something deeply disturbing about your constant blind adoration for the Japanese, and comments like this certainly prove it.

Excuse me, but I do esteem the Japanese very much and I defend them, because through their teachings and values, as well as their discipline and perseverance...

They have contributed a lot to the world in a positive way.

And if you think I'm wrong...

The one who's wrong is you. So respect people's thinking.
 
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Civilians targeted and died so probably yes.

edit: but just like Putin is responsible for his war crimes those in charge back then are responsible. I do not hold Americans or Russians responsible for their leaders criminal choices.
 
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FunkMiller

Gold Member
Please add a link to read where the Japanese acknowledged in the 60s they deserve to be nuked twice

“In 1962 and in 1963, the Japanese government retracted its previous statement by saying that there was no international law prohibiting the use of atomic bombs.[178]

***

I’m ducking out of this thread, largely because there seems to be a lot of you that have made up your minds about this, without actually researching the Second World War, and the context around which the bombs were dropped.

In any analysis of whether these bombings were war crimes or not, you cannot judge against the modern standards of the world we live in. Too many of you are doing this, and that rather ruins any constructive conversation.

Have fun!
 
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jason10mm

Gold Member
But not using the bomb and dragging out the war for much longer, either starving or invading Japan would have been even worse. For everyone.

We'd have a topic here arguing not using the bomb was a war crime.
If Japan had gotten totally wiped out then there would be no nintendo or Sony, thus no console wars, only Xbox.

Still think it was a war crime????

[that's a terrible joke, I apologize]
 
“In 1962 and in 1963, the Japanese government retracted its previous statement by saying that there was no international law prohibiting the use of atomic bombs.[178]

***

I’m ducking out of this thread, largely because there seems to be a lot of you that have made up your minds about this, without actually researching the Second World War, and the context around which the bombs were dropped.

In any analysis of whether these bombings were war crimes or not, you cannot judge against the modern standards of the world we live in. Too many of you are doing this, and that rather ruins any constructive conversation.

Have fun!
Of course there was no international law prohibiting nuclear weapons when hiroshima and nagasaki happen...they were the first, and again, one Last time

BOMBING CITYS FULL OF CIVILIANS ITS ILEGAL SINCE THE XIX CENTURY
 
It was a race to build the atomic warheads, USA simply crossed the line first. If Japan or Germany had built atomic bombs before us, you can 100% be assured that they would have used them.
 

winjer

Gold Member
It was a race to build the atomic warheads, USA simply crossed the line first. If Japan or Germany had built atomic bombs before us, you can 100% be assured that they would have used them.

Yes, if the Axis got nukes before the Allies, they probably would have used them against the US. This would also be a war crime, if used on civilian population.
But the fact is that neither Japan nor Germany had nukes, and the USA knew that. And still, Truman decided to use nukes on 2 civilian targets, committing a war crime.

Might I remember that the USSR also got nukes, and never used it to nuke civilian targets, while doing their wars. And the USSR did invade a good amount of countries, so there was plenty of opportunity.
 
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IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
A difficult topic, and one that historians have debated for decades. There are valid points for both arguments, but for me it was an unnecessary action on a foe who was already effectivity defeated.

People say that the bombs prevented a land invasion that would have killed more people. This is true, but even a land invasion would have been unnecessary. The Japanese were on the brink of surrender with the blockade and bombings with conventional weapons. There wasn't any need to nuke them, let alone do it twice.

My great grandfather was a POW in Japan. He was in a camp that was close to Hiroshima. The Japanese treated him appallingly. Daily beatings, lack of food and to top it off an accident in a mine he was forced to work in took his sight.

However, after all that he never blamed the Japanese. He didn't hate them afterwards. He always told me that it was war and war made men do horrendous things to each other. Although he was thankful to be liberated by the Americas, he also felt the atomic bombs were a step too far and were unnecessary.

Anyway, this debate will never go away and will never be settled on GAF.
 

winjer

Gold Member
A difficult topic, and one that historians have debated for decades. There are valid points for both arguments, but for me it was an unnecessary action on a foe who was already effectivity defeated.

People say that the bombs prevented a land invasion that would have killed more people. This is true, but even a land invasion would have been unnecessary. The Japanese were on the brink of surrender with the blockade and bombings with conventional weapons. There wasn't any need to nuke them, let alone do it twice.

My great grandfather was a POW in Japan. He was in a camp that was close to Hiroshima. The Japanese treated him appallingly. Daily beatings, lack of food and to top it off an accident in a mine he was forced to work in took his sight.

However, after all that he never blamed the Japanese. He didn't hate them afterwards. He always told me that it was war and war made men do horrendous things to each other. Although he was thankful to be liberated by the Americas, he also felt the atomic bombs were a step too far and were unnecessary.

Anyway, this debate will never go away and will never be settled on GAF.

The mistreatment of POWs was a war crime, even by the XIX century. The Hague Convention of 1899 also has provisions on that.
Unfortunately, WW2 was fertile in this type of crime, especially among the German, Russian and Japanese.
 

Thaedolus

Gold Member
As Hollywood has taught us, Americans are the good guys, so they're not capable of commiting war crimes. Everything they do is somehow justified.
Well that’s a silly counter argument. 50 million people died in WWII. The prospects were: keep this meat grinder going and add some millions more to the total, or wipe out two cities in such an awesome way there could be no doubt of the final outcome should the war continue.

At the end of the day, it was a horrific thing to do and a human catastrophe and tragedy. And that was the least bad option.
 

IDKFA

I am Become Bilbo Baggins
The mistreatment of POWs was a war crime, even by the XIX century. The Hague Convention of 1899 also has provisions on that.
Unfortunately, WW2 was fertile in this type of crime, especially among the German, Russian and Japanese.

Agree it was a war crime. My great grandfather never talked much about it, but he did say he didn't hold a grudge against the Japanese, even though his mistreatment cost him his sight.
 
The Nuremberg trials accounted for the mass killing of civilians as Crimes Against Humanity and saw those, relating to the Nazi treatment of foreign civilians, as war crimes. So in this context it’s difficult to justify the nukes against Japanese civilians as anything different.
No one at Nuremberg was convicted for bombing citiies. The Blitz, Rotterdam, Warsaw, all were considered not in itself crimes but rather the war of agression they were part of. In the whole bodycount of the Axis it was the killings done after the countries or troops surrendered which accounted for the vast majority. And in the case of Allied bombings, no German or Japanese civilians were sent to the gas chambers after surrender by the millions.
 

RJMacready73

Simps for Amouranth
Fuck if I was in charge I would've nuked all their cities and not stopped at 2, then again I've read a few books on the imperialist Japanese Army and ho boy, they where a naughty bunch of lads
 

lachesis

Member
Japanese soldiers were literally eating American POWs for meat.
and let's not forget Unit 731 as well on their horrific human experimentations on various political prisoners, men, women, unborn baby alike.
Any war is a crime against humanity, no matter what the reason is. That much I agree.

But atomic bomb of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it's not a war crime.
Both cities had military bases and HQs and essential navy ports.

Basically Japanese government tried to use their civilians as human shield literally, and many people died because of it.
That itself is war crime of the Japanese government. Once they realized there were within reach of U.S. bombardment, they should have surrendered.
 

Razvedka

Banned
Based on the Hague conventions, general principles of international law, jus cogens etc..., i can safely say that the indiscriminate bombing of the city was indeed a war crime. But that doesn't seem to resonate with a lot of people.

And don't come give me the "b-but it was total war!" crap. Everyone knows that in a war, you don't attack civilians on purpose.

You tell me that THIS isn't a war crime?

Nagasaki_1945_-_Before_and_after_adjusted.jpg


Had the Germans won, wouldn't they have put some people on trial on the allies side for war crimes?
1. Only the losers are tried for war crimes. Victors rarely hold themselves to the same 'standard' as those who lost. Speaking personally I hold the conception of war crimes as being both idealistic & noble as well as ridiculous when I see its historical applications.

2. It's hard to feel bad for the Japanese given the sheer brutality they displayed during the war. The butchery that occurred in China, their cruelty to PoWs, their attack on Pearl Harbor without a formal declaration of war, etc.

Moving past cynicism and 'who is more bad' (based on my approximation of your moral belief system), there's an additional two factors worth considering for the use of the atomic bomb:

3. Oppenheimer, US military, and US civilian leadership (e.g. president) were not actually expecting the bombs to be as devastating as they were. This isn't to say they didn't appreciate it was going to be a big explosion, but the real world uses constantly floored them when their math proved too conservative. Someone can correct me here if I'm mistaken here, but I don't think that I am.*

See here:
Such numbers were large, and appear to have had a sobering effect on President Harry S. Truman. After the August 9 Nagasaki raid (which he had no apparent foreknowledge of), he would put a stop to further bombing, telling his cabinet that “the thought of wiping out another 100,000 people was too horrible,” according to an August 10, 1945, diary entry by then-Secretary of Commerce Henry A. Wallace. It is not clear that Truman had any real sense of how many casualties there would have been prior to the attacks. The only pre-Hiroshima estimate on record is the recollection from Arthur Compton that at a May 31, 1945, meeting of the Interim Committee, J. Robert Oppenheimer had suggested that an atomic bomb dropped would kill “some 20,000 people” if exploded over a city. This is not recorded in the meeting minutes, nor in any other report or correspondence, so it does not seem that this estimate had any special weight to the participants. (Compton amended that this estimate had assumed people would seek shelter; given that no warning was issued for the attacks, this did not occur.)

Oppenheimer would comment obliquely on this variance in before-and-after estimates during the hearing on his security clearance in 1954:
oppenheimer-hearing-quote.png.webp

4. The invasion of Japan was slated to require millions of allied troops (US, UK, etc) and the casualties on both sides were projected to be absolutely horrific. By this point in the war, the Japanese had demonstrated a fanatical resolve and unwillingness to surrender and this fact was included in the calculus of the Allies. Millions of Japanese civilians alone would have died.*

See here:
In practice, authors and reports seem to cluster around two numbers, which I will call the “low” and the “high” estimates. The “low” estimates are those derived from the estimates of the 1940s: around 70,000 dead at Hiroshima, and around 40,000 dead at Nagasaki, for 110,000 total dead. The “high” estimates are those that derive from the 1977 re-estimation: around 140,000 dead at Hiroshima, and around 70,000 dead at Nagasaki, for a total of 210,000 total dead. Given that the “high” estimates are almost double the “low” estimates, this is a significant difference. There is no intellectually defensible reason to assume that, for example, an average (105,000 dead at Hiroshima, 55,000 dead at Nagasaki) would be more accurate or meaningful.

My qualitative sense is that historians who want to emphasize the suffering of the Japanese (and the injustice of the bombing) tend to prefer the “high” numbers, while those who want to emphasize the military necessity of the attack tend to prefer the “low” numbers. And therein lies the real question: What do these estimates do for us, rhetorically? It is clear that numbers, stripped from their technical contexts, are deployed primarily as a form of moral calculus. And this should not surprise us, given that so much of the argument defending the atomic bombs relies on another casualty estimate: how many people might have died in a full-scale land invasion of Japan (numbers that have been similarly contested for decades, ranging from tens of thousands of casualties, to the more imaginative millions).

Separately, the number of dead at Hiroshima and Nagasaki have also been explicitly compared to the estimated dead from the devastating firebombing attacks against both Germany (notably Dresden) and Japan (notably Tokyo) that preceded them. This argument is again part of the justification of atomic bombings, an attempt to show that they were not “special” in any particular moral sense when put up against “conventional” Allied activity. Whether this is or isn’t a strong argument is out of scope for this article, but it is just worth keeping in mind what work the “low” numbers do, for they pale in comparison with the highest estimates of the Tokyo bombing dead, and with the estimates for a land invasion of Japan.

Given that there is no satisfactory way to decide whether the “low” or “high” estimates are more accurate, it is fairly clear there is no “neutral” choice to be made. It ultimately comes down to which sort of authority one wishes to go with: the official estimates of the United States military in the 1940s, or the later estimates by a group of anti-nuclear weapons scientists, largely spearheaded by Japan. Both made legitimate points in making their estimations; neither show any apparent perfidy or obvious intellectual dishonesty.

Neither these 'low' or 'high' estimates eclipse 1 million dead. To me, in terms of the raw body count, it was the move which cost fewer lives vs the conventional invasion being planned.

So dropping the two atomic bombs ultimately saved more lives than it cost.

*Source: https://thebulletin.org/2020/08/counting-the-dead-at-hiroshima-and-nagasaki/
 
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EverydayBeast

thinks Halo Infinite is a new graphical benchmark
Nuclear warheads was apart of WW2, you ever play Cold War? Japanese torture was horrible.
 
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Go_Ly_Dow

Member
Lived in central Nagasaki for several years, about a 20min walk from the epicentre.

It's quite amazing just how beautiful, vibrant and lively the city and surrounding area is, interwined with the mountains, forests, harbour and the surrounding ocean. One of the most beautiful places and well worth a visit.

My take is that yes it was a war crime, but may have been the only way to quickly end the war. However, maybe they could have dropped the bomb on a much less densley populated area, let's say closer to the capital cities to send a powerful message to the ruling elite at the time.
 
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Jsisto

Member
War is incredibly ugly, and the primary goal of any nation is to win to preserve it's sovereignty and the lives of its civilians and soldiers. These were obviously horribly catastrophic attacks, but it's far too easy for us to sit here with all our modern comforts and luxuries and suggest it was an unnecessary attack. Perhaps there was a better, less violent way, I sure don't know. But I'm sure we all would be feeling very different right now if we lost the war.
 
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My take is that yes it was a war crime, but may have been the only way to quickly end the war. However, maybe they could have dropped the bomb on a much less densley populated area, let's say closer to the capital cities to send a powerful message to the ruling elite at the time.

LeMay and the American's firebombed 67 cities in just over 6 months. See my post here for details. There was, realistically, very little else left.
 

daveonezero

Banned
Like all war it was unnecessary.

Excellent point. There is a lot of bizzare logic and looped thinking going on in here with many people who are active in the Ukraine thread. Very enlightening.
Haha that’s why trI was banned from that thread. Pointing out inconsistencies is not allowed. You can’t be for some wars and against others. You either think they are ok or don’t.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Of course, anyone Who is OK to NUKE 2 citys full Of civilians are fucking evil

Just because WW2 ended almost 80 years, dont change the fact the american continent is almost imposible to conquest, thats why the US was ever invaded in the first place, even before WW2, the danger Of conquest was irreal, in fact the only time the US was hit in their own terrotory was because of terrorism, not by a fleet or an army, The geography Of América offer full protection, starting with an ocean

And how exactly América help his allies exactly? Taiwan is in danger Of China, its an ally Of the usa, and at the same time, the US denies Taiwán existence and acept the policy Of 1 china

Or Israel, US Long ally, but never help them in war, even when the country was in real danger, in fact the us Just give money to the Iron dome and other project in exchange Of technollgy and Intel, Just quid pro quo

And when that happens, the us is ally Of saudí arabia and even sell them weapons, the country Who give money to terrorist organizations for decades, to destroy Israel, the usa ally...

So yeah i fail to see how the US help the World and allies, when he help both sides to have a bigger and longest conflict

And im not even starting all the proxy wars the US have for decades

And to finish, Germany and Italy alredy lost the war and finish fighting WEEKS before the nukes, so its kind Of stupid to claim if it was for nukes we saved ourself Of speaking Germany Or japanese, and btw América enter the war in europe when the tide alredy changed, The USSR and the british alredy weakened the Nazis and the Facist.

And to add a little extra, in 1973,the yom kipur war, when Israel was attacked by surprise by 2 countrys, they refuse to use nukes, on the sinai desert, because it was a stupid idea

In fact please remove your Ukraine avatar and replace it with the Z logo. You alredy stated you dont care about geneva conventions when you claim everything is fair in war, like the russians, and thanks to the nukes, the otan cant help ukraine thanks to the threat Of nukes by the kremlin
Your longwinded post answered nothing I said. But thanks for trying. lol

At the end of the day your, "Well, the US could had demonstrated a bomb on an island to make Japan surrender that way" didnt happen. As I said, you have zero proof if the US did that the Japanese would surrender. But the double bombs did fast.

As I said before, fighting an enemy tit for tat in a back and forth attrition is a waste of time. Just because it looks good on paper as equal forces trying to fight in an honourable way for ages in history books like Rocky vs. Apollo in 15 rounds isn't logical in real life. Given how stubborn Japan was, best course of action was to obliterate them to make it stop. And it did.

If the US had to resort to landings on Japanese soil, who knows how long it would take to end.

Lucky for Japan, the US isn't a conquest kind of country. I'm sure they could had kept bombing them if they felt like it and simply take over their island like Russia trying to take over Ukraine, or Germany trying to take over Europe. But the US stopped there.

You can be a US hater all your want, but when it comes to war sometimes you got to give the enemy a steel toe kick to the face to get them to stop.
 
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akimbo009

Gold Member
And endless debate, and reasonable people can have very different point of views.

In context, and the amount of violence already on display through fire bombings - which killed more civilians both in Europe and Japan - I tend to toss it into the "they taught the world what war crimes were" not what they were at the time. If done again, as with fire bombing, POW treatment, etc, they should be seen as war crimes with full prosecution (which really means the winner cause, losers don't get a chance to argue).

If folks really like this topic (and the debate won't be solved here - and the veering towards "what about Putin" stuff isn't helping) I would recommend listening to Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast on this.. Supernova in the East. It's ~36 episodes across 6 episodes.. but the final episode sets up the context of the use of atomic weapons. Doesn't settle the debate, but provides a far more nuanced understanding within the context of such a deviating war.

Edit: link for episode 6, https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-67-supernova-in-the-east-vi/
 
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JusticeForAll

Gold Member
Off course it was. Just like the bombing of Dresden was as well. War is always grey and terrible things are done by both sides. That doesn't mean there isn't a good and a bad side, just that a lot of bad stuff has been done in the name of good.
 
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IFireflyl

Gold Member
Here is article 25, from the Hague convention, signed by the USA.

The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited.

The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were clearly an attack and a bombing, on civilian towns.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't civilian towns though.

Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. To quote a Japanese report, "Probably more than a thousand times since the beginning of the war did the Hiroshima citizens see off with cries of 'Banzai' the troops leaving from the harbor."

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great war-time importance because of its many and varied industries, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. The narrow long strip attacked was of particular importance because of its industries.

Source: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/mp06.asp

Were there civilians in these cities? Absolutely. But Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targets because of their military importance. The U.S. did not violate the Hague treaties by bombing these two cities. These bombings were not a war crime. That doesn't mean they weren't terrible.
 
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StreetsofBeige

Gold Member
Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't civilian towns though.





Source: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/mp06.asp

Were there civilians in these cities? Absolutely. But Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targets because of their military importance. The U.S. did not violate the Hague treaties by bombing these two cities. These bombings were not a war crime. That doesn't mean they weren't terrible.
I think what some people in modern day want is old ass wars to have pinpoint targeting like current military where you got satellites, drones, and all that stuff which can rocket a house 1000 miles away with pure accuracy.

So what they see in old wars (carpet bombing a city to destroy enemy military and instill fear into civilians) is something barbaric.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't civilian towns though.


Source: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/mp06.asp

Were there civilians in these cities? Absolutely. But Hiroshima and Nagasaki were targets because of their military importance. The U.S. did not violate the Hague treaties by bombing these two cities. These bombings were not a war crime. That doesn't mean they weren't terrible.


Maybe we should remember that the bombing in Nagasaki killed 110.000 people, but only 20.000 were Japanese combatants.
In Nagasaki, 30.000 people died. Of these, only 150 Japanese combatants.
As you can see, it was a massacre of civilians. Some military were there, but they were the minority.

And let us not forget that the civilian population continues to suffer because of the nuclear radiation.
This was not just a normal bombing that killed civilians, it poisoned the whole area for centuries.
If we include people that died after the bombing, there are studies that estimate another 62.000 dead in Hiroshima. In Nagaraki, this number rises up 80.000 dead.

Regarding precision bombing, might I remind you that the US air force spent a lot of resources in the Norden Bombsight, one of the first effective devices to enable bombers to do precision bombings.
And the Sperry S-1 Bombsight was even better, although less used.
 
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akimbo009

Gold Member
Maybe we should remember that the bombing in Nagasaki killed 110.000 people, but only 20.000 were Japanese combatants.
In Nagasaki, 30.000 people died. Of these, only 150 Japanese combatants.
As you can see, it was a massacre of civilians. Some military were there, but they were the minority.

And let us not forget that the civilian population continues to suffer because of the nuclear radiation.
This was not just a normal bombing that killed civilians, it poisoned the whole area for centuries.
If we include people that died after the bombing, there are studies that estimate another 62.000 dead in Hiroshima. In Nagaraki, this number rises up 80.000 dead.

There is on going suffering across Asia, even today, from Japan's imperialism. Not sure your point here. I think you're staying the ongoing effects are way worse than other ongoing effects. Perhaps on a message board that primarily speaks English you'll have a lot of sympathy to that position, though I suspect those that speak Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, etc would feel way different.

It's really hard to put into perspective the shear scale of violence happening daily in this war - not just in the Pacific theater but as the war continued to be prosecuted in China and other areas - largely still successful comparatively. Even the large numbers from the bombs are really small numbers when measured against the fire bombing of Tokyo, or the regular death totals in China against military and civilian as Japan either counter attacked or retreated.

I'd encourage you to listen to the resource I shared. Nothing needs to be justificated or not - clearly the US isn't about to drop another bomb and lessons were learned by humanity from this war and these bombs. There is no "told you so" to this debate, I hope you realize.
 
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