Support NeoGAF

[SpartanForce]

I have been studying this for a time, but never I have a conclusive dependable proof. You see, goering, keitel and doritz were nazis, but what about the low soldier? I have some sources that study the matter in the recent tapes from British spies and letters; mostly are really nazi to the core in there. Also there were sexy slaves in poland for the soldiers, orders to kill commandos or red army officers, the army that got fucked in stalingrad made huge crimes against civilians. Maybe this notion of army without politics is the "true", because of the Cold War. I don't know, any thoughts? I used to think the wehrmacht was almost clean, but it looks now worse that the SS.

 

[JordanN]

Nazis were members of the government.

Actual Nazi Soldiers were called the Waffen SS

Waffen-SS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This was broken down to even more specific units. Like the SS-Totenkopf who were in control of the death camps.

SS-Totenkopfverbände - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Gestapo were the secret police.

Gestapo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But no, not every German soldier was a NASDAP member.

Some of them were also conscripts or forced to fight for the Germans.

Ostlegionen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

OP is Hitler's long lost son.

 

[Tesseract]

my grandpa sure enjoyed plunging his knife into their throats

 

[Prison Mike]

my grandpa sure enjoyed plunging his knife into their throats

Greatest respect to your grandfather

 

[SpartanForce]

Actual Nazi Soldiers were called the Waffen SS

I'm talking about the wehrmacht. And not every waffen-ss was nazi. Nordland comes to mind.

This was broken down to even more specific units. Like the SS-Totenkoph who were in control of the death camps.

3rd totenkopf not "totenkoph".

Gestapo were the secret police.

and...?

But no, not every German soldier was a NASDAP member.

You don't need to be a member to believe in nazi bs.

 

[Tesseract]

Greatest respect to your grandfather

he was the fucking best

monster pilot who got his shoulder blown off mid flight, still managed to stay conscious and land onto a cable carrier's arresting gear

the right stuff, that generation

 

[Prison Mike]

he was the fucking best

monster pilot who got his shoulder blown off mid flight, still managed to stay conscious and land onto a cable carrier's arresting gear

the right stuff, that generation

Jesus what a man you are right to see the generations coming through now makes you think we'd be royally fucked if the was a war

 

[Tesseract]

Jesus what a man you are right to see the generations coming through now makes you think we'd be royally fucked if the was a war

i'm kinda glad he's not around to see the clown world he fought for

we're supposed to be earning it (as the great tom hanks reminded us)

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

The real question is why does Europe always start World Wars like chill.

 

[Prison Mike]

The real question is why does Europe always start World Wars like chill.

We like to lull the enemy into a false sense of security haha

 

[Tesseract]

i blame the netherlands because i'm allowed to

 

[DonJimbo]

Yes they were members of the NSDAP they supported the ns Regime but After war they denied it

 

[Ma-Yuan]

This is all bullshit. I am German my grandfather was a farmer forced to join the army. He was in his late teens and for sure not nazi and I assume many others as well. He was lucky to avoid the east front. He never told me if he killed anybody and I didn't ask. I was to afraid I admit. He just told that he was lucky to get out alive and being in an allied prison camp. But what choice did u have in nazi Germany? You don't join you get shot. Does that make you a nazi? If you don't join and fight you get told your country is over run and everybody dies. It's a shit show. Fascism is a shit show. So is communism. What the red army did to my great grand father and to my great grand mother wasn't better then anything we did. In short it was rape and he died because of one of their camps. I am not sure if my grandmother was raped as well she never talked about it. So war brings out the worst in every human being but it doesn't make you a nazi automatically.

 

[-Arcadia-]

i'm kinda glad he's not around to see the clown world he fought for

we're supposed to be earning it (as the great tom hanks reminded us)

Amazingly, I read that as “Tom Honks”, and it was wonderful.

 

[-Arcadia-]

This is all bullshit. I am German my grandfather was a farmer forced to join the army. He was in his late teens and for sure not nazi and I assume many others as well. He was lucky to avoid the east front. He never told me if he killed anybody and I didn't ask. I was to afraid I admit. He just told that he was lucky to get out alive and being in an allied prison camp. But what choice did u have in nazi Germany? You don't join you get shot. Does that make you a nazi? If you don't join and fight you get told your country is over run and everybody dies. It's a shit show. Fascism is a shit show. So is communism. What the red army did to my great grand father and to my great grand mother wasn't better then anything we did. In short it was rape and he died because of one of their camps. I am not sure if my grandmother was raped as well she never talked about it. So war brings out the worst in every human being but it doesn't make you a nazi automatically.

Not taking sides, but yeah, war ends in all kinds of fucked up scenarios for everyone. What do you do when your entire country has gone crazy, and rebellion probably means capital punishment, or imprisonment? I don’t judge, because that had to be the hardest stuff to deal with. People today, can’t even imagine.

 

[V4skunk]

We like to lull the enemy into a false sense of security haha

If you are European you are the enemy.
Us British are starting to despise Europe.

 

[Prison Mike]

E

If you are European you are the enemy.
Us British are starting to despise Europe.

English born and bred here sir

 

[Starlight Lotice]

Nazis is the term used for Germans who believed in National Socialism (which is where we get the name Nazi). At first (way before Hitler became the leader), they were seen as a joke party with very little support.

The term is mostly used now to mean Hitler's ideals of the perfect race and eradication of another (in this case the Jews), he effectively changed how they saw things, which is why Nazism is associated with his views and ideals.

The soldiers were sadly forced to go with his regime because he did get the Country back on its feet through some very clever political and economical steps, and ripped up the rules placed upon Germany. Some did like his ideals but some didn't, especially if you were Christian/Gay/Black etc.

The SS/SA/Gestapo should be mentioned along with Nazism as they are mostly the ones who committed these war crimes out on behalf of Hitler.

Us British are starting to despise Europe.

Not all British people hate Europe (at least as a continent), and I have some German Blood in me (very small but there).

Politics wise, yes they are being harsh with the British.

Something to cheer the thread up. Hitler hating Valkyria Chronicles 2.



Kazza , you will love this

 

[O-N-E]

my grandpa sure enjoyed plunging his knife into their throats

Nice. I've been told my great-grandpa was machine-gunning Nazis on the front lines all the way to Berlin and took the Reichstag. Then was sent to the East to finish the fight with Japan.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Nazis is the term used for Germans who believed in National Socialism (which is where we get the name Nazi). At first (way before Hitler became the leader), they were seen as a joke party with very little support.

The term is mostly used now to mean Hitler's ideals of the perfect race and eradication of another (in this case the Jews), he effectively changed how they saw things, which is why Nazism is associated with his views and ideals.

The soldiers were sadly forced to go with his regime because he did get the Country back on its feet through some very clever political and economical steps, and ripped up the rules placed upon Germany. Some did like his ideals but some didn't, especially if you were Christian/Gay/Black etc.

The SS/SA/Gestapo should be mentioned along with Nazism as they are mostly the ones who committed these war crimes out on behalf of Hitler.



Not all British people hate Europe (at least as a continent), and I have some German Blood in me (very small but there).

Politics wise, yes they are being harsh with the British.

Something to cheer the thread up. Hitler hating Valkyria Chronicles 2.



Kazza , you will love this

Europe hates you though!

Nice. I've been told my great-grandpa was machine-gunning Nazis on the front lines all the way to Berlin and took the Reichstag. Then was sent to the East to finish the fight with Japan.

And now you are a weeb!

 

[O-N-E]

And now you are a weeb!

I often wonder how disappointed in me he would be and how fast I would die if I was put in the same position (front lines with 90% casualty rate).

 

[Starlight Lotice]

Europe hates you though!

They luv uz, m8.

 

[King of Foxes]

Both my grandfather's were in the Latvian legion, couldn't be prouder of them. They both said they knew nothing of the jews and that many joined the Germans because they promised to free the baltics as payment for baltic service

He once told a story about some soviets charging his trench and after he killed them he noticed they all had metal teeth.

Another time during a retreat he and two of his fellow soldiers noticed their coats had bullet holes in them. The three of them dodged 9 or 10 bullets from the holes in their coats

 

[Kusanagi2086]

Actual Nazi Soldiers were called the Waffen SS

I'm talking about the wehrmacht. And not every waffen-ss was nazi. Nordland comes to mind.

This was broken down to even more specific units. Like the SS-Totenkoph who were in control of the death camps.

3rd totenkopf not "totenkoph".

Gestapo were the secret police.

and...?

But no, not every German soldier was a NASDAP member.

You don't need to be a member to believe in nazi bs.

Nordland was a mix of anti communists form different nations including my own of Norway but they were traitors for the most part who in my opinion deserved a bullet to the head.

 

[Kusanagi2086]

Both my grandfather's were in the Latvian legion, couldn't be prouder of them. They both said they knew nothing of the jews and that many joined the Germans because they promised to free the baltics as payment for baltic service

He once told a story about some soviets charging his trench and after he killed them he noticed they all had metal teeth.

Another time during a retreat he and two of his fellow soldiers noticed their coats had bullet holes in them. The three of them dodged 9 or 10 bullets from the holes in their coats

Latvian Legion had members that was a part of the Arajs Kommando which was part of the infamous Einzatskommando which was squads with the responbility to kill jews and were partly involved in the Riga massacre, so the whole we did not know of the holocaust is a bold faced lie.

One of the German ministers responsible for the occupation of Latvia even said sometimes we did not even have do any work since the Latvians was more than eager to get rid of the Jews.

 

[Halo is Back]

Generally speaking I would probably say no. But lest be real here all sides of the war both Allies and Axis committed horrible war crimes especially the Russians and Germans mostly to each other. Part of the reason death camps were created because it was a moral destroyed to german troops. Not all german soldiers enjoyed the ruthless shootings of Jews. Also as you can see later in the war as the Allies moved closer to Germany troops surrendered in the hundreds of thousands, makes me believe not all of them followed the Nazi propaganda, they could see the writing on the wall more t a year before the war ended.

 

[highrider]

The real question is why does Europe always start World Wars like chill.

Honestly I kind of miss a strong Europe but obviously without the world wars. Nothing about my time in service in joint exercises with European military suggested to me that has any chance of ever happening again.

In regards to the OP, they were all Nazis. There were certainly some that were low key against what Hitler was doing, but clearly not against it enough to organize and oust him from power. And there’s really no way of knowing how many were true believers. What I can tell you is Germany has been so altered by it that it has pretty much turned them in to a nation that isn’t even capable of protecting itself, and are essentially slowly destroying themselves from the inside.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Latvian Legion had members that was a part of the Arajs Kommando which was part of the infamous Einzatskommando which was squads with the responbility to kill jews and were partly involved in the Riga massacre, so the whole we did not know of the holocaust is a bold faced lie.

One of the German ministers responsible for the occupation of Latvia even said sometimes we did not even have do any work since the Latvians was more than eager to get rid of the Jews.

Did they only kill Jews and not gays/gypsies though?

 

[Hudo]

While it is still debated and contested, there were at least a significant amount of soldiers in the Wehrmacht that weren't nazis and were just trying to not get killed and/or serve Germany. Many also felt like they needed to "rectify" what happened to Germany after WWI (Treaty of Versailles etc.). There is a lot of evidence or even proof (Letters of correspondence from soldiers, acts of desertation or insubordination, being involuntarily drafted and maybe disillusion after a certain time in combat, after being initially very excited and motivated by all the nazi pro-war propaganda) that there were soldiers who saw themselves as defenders/fighters for Germany and its population rather than defenders/fighters of the nazi ideal. One also has to stress that the Wehrmacht was not intended nor tasked with carrying out the holocaust. Their main purpose was to fight a war. Departments of the SS were tasked with this with Reinhard Heydrich being the "chief executive officer" of that whole process, until he was killed. Then Himmler took that over directly, if I remember correctly.

However, it can't be denied that there were also a significant amount of soldiers in the Wehrmacht who probably agreed (or at least partially agreed) to the nazi ideology. But it is certain that you'll find more "believers" among the SS departments as it was a strict requirement (among others) for being recruited in the first place.

TL;DR: No. It's not as black and white. However the exact ratio of how many soldiers of the Wehrmacht weren't nazis and how many were (or agreed partially with the ideology) is unclear.

As a side note. There's also correspondence of commanders and generals (like for example Erwin Rommel) that question the war itself (or at least certain motives or aspects). And of course the infamous flight of Rudolf Heß to the UK to try to get some agreement between the UK and Nazi Germany. One could even make a conjecture: That most of the nazi regime and its generals/commanders were in agreement that Russia and the Bolshevists were the real enemy, not really the western world (except for France, which many Germans felt like it abused Germany via the Treaty of Versailles and the occupation of the Ruhr Gebiet).

That's all I remember from my history classes in School (Note: I am German, so I don't know if I was subjected to certain biases in the curriculum).

 

[Kusanagi2086]

Did they only kill Jews and not gays/gypsies though?

Well the Einzatskommandos was specifally designed as a task force to hunt for jews but homosexuals were arrested as well as gypsies but it was Jews that were the main target.

But yes they also targeted other minorities when they found them but the directive from the Nazi government were directed at Jews as described in the Wansee protocols (meeting of Nazi officals in suburb outside of Berlin called Wannsee) they made a movie about that meeting were they finalized the plans for the final solution.

 

[Kusanagi2086]

Generally speaking I would probably say no. But lest be real here all sides of the war both Allies and Axis committed horrible war crimes especially the Russians and Germans mostly to each other. Part of the reason death camps were created because it was a moral destroyed to german troops. Not all german soldiers enjoyed the ruthless shootings of Jews. Also as you can see later in the war as the Allies moved closer to Germany troops surrendered in the hundreds of thousands, makes me believe not all of them followed the Nazi propaganda, they could see the writing on the wall more t a year before the war ended.

The German army could have ended the war in 1944 during the failed assassination it was the Wehrmacht that kept Hitler in power and every soldier in the Wehrmacht swore an allegiance to Hitler.

And German soldiers surrendered to the allies (western allies) because after their murder spree across the soviet union they knew what would happen if the Russians caught them.

Not condoning what the Russians did after the war but the anger the Russian soldiers had was understandable the Wehrmacht also burned down villages and towns and was responsible for the scorched earth tactics hell even in my country of Norway they used that tactic were they burned down every village as they retreated.

And that was committed by the German Army

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid,
daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes
Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht,
unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will,
jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."

The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934

"I swear to God this sacred oath
that to the Leader of the German Reich and people,
Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces,
I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared
to give my life for this oath."

 

[King of Foxes]

Latvian Legion had members that was a part of the Arajs Kommando which was part of the infamous Einzatskommando which was squads with the responbility to kill jews and were partly involved in the Riga massacre, so the whole we did not know of the holocaust is a bold faced lie.

One of the German ministers responsible for the occupation of Latvia even said sometimes we did not even have do any work since the Latvians was more than eager to get rid of the Jews.

Yes im sure every single soldier in the legion had to kill a jew to get in. How silly of me to forget.

Regardless we fought for our own freedom

I found it curious you knew so much about our legion so i checked the wiki and your info is indeed there...funny you forget to mention Latvian legionaries being guards at the Hauge for the trials

 

[poppabk]

he was the fucking best

monster pilot who got his shoulder blown off mid flight, still managed to stay conscious and land onto a cable carrier's arresting gear

the right stuff, that generation

My great uncle drove military trucks all over europe. Never saw any action, - never got shot at, never fired a shot.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

My great-grandpa fought for the kaiser in WW1 and was decorated with the iron cross (probably 2nd class). When he saw the rise of nazism he fled to the USA with his family and here we are.

The soldiers in the german army knew what they were getting into. They had time to say no. Perhaps they didn't believe every single bit of the nazi propaganda (which was often shifting and changing depending on the circumstances) but they definitely believed in the rise of the Motherland.

 

[Starfield]

Ofc the Wehrmacht Generals and higher ups knew what was going on and there's no doj t that some of the Wehrmacht soldiers shared the same naze sympathy but no, in general the Wehrmacht was just your regular army.

There were even some cases (for example in Austria) where Wehrmacht soldiers fought against Waffen SS aka the real nazis and defended the locals from them

 

[Kusanagi2086]

Yes im sure every single soldier in the legion had to kill a jew to get in. How silly of me to forget.

Regardless we fought for our own freedom

I found it curious you knew so much about our legion so i checked the wiki and your info is indeed there...funny you forget to mention Latvian legionaries being guards at the Hauge for the trials

Yes so did the Norwegian SS volunteers claim they fought for our freedom they said, up until the point we locked them up for treason.

Some were even executed and the rest recieved their pensions from the German government after the war since that's the country the fought for.

 

[King of Foxes]

Yes so did the Norwegian SS volunteers claim they fought for our freedom they said, up until the point we locked them up for treason.

Some were even executed and the rest recieved their pensions from the German government after the war since that's the country the fought for.

Our experience under Soviet occupation proves fighting for the Germans to keep the Russians out was justified

 

[Kamina]

You don't need to be a member to believe in nazi bs.

Individual soldiers sharing the nazi ideology doesn’t collectively make the whole Wehrmacht Nazis.
My gandfather had to join the Wehrmacht to fight in France, where he was taken into custody by the british soldiers who took him to England where he served prison time. And he was far way from being a Nazi.

The soldiers in the german army knew what they were getting into. They had time to say no. Perhaps they didn't believe every single bit of the nazi propaganda (which was often shifting and changing depending on the circumstances) but they definitely believed in the rise of the Motherland.

You should reread some facts from WWII, because what you say so simple was infinitely more difficult in reality.

And yes: most soldiers believed in the Fatherland but that was natural and understandable back in the day, since they were protecting their home, the only land they knew, with their families and friends in it.

 

[Foamy]

I did nazi this interesting thread till now.

 

[Kusanagi2086]

Our experience under Soviet occupation proves fighting for the Germans to keep the Russians out was justified

Forgetting the fact that the Germans had no problem letting Latvia be occupied by the Russians in 1940 after the Ribbentrop agreement.

You guys got handed a bad deal I will grant you that but the Germans were the ones that put you in that position to begin with, when they allowed the Russians to occupy the Baltic's, basically they are the sole reason you and the other Baltic states got dragged into the war to begin with.

The Ribbetropp agreement would be broken in 41 following the invasion of the soviet union but before then they had no problem handing over the baltics and parts of Poland to the Russians.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

You should reread some facts from WWII, because what you say so simple was infinitely more difficult in reality.

And yes: most soldiers believed in the Fatherland but that was natural and understandable back in the day, since they were protecting their home, the only land they knew, with their families and friends in it.

Moral choices tend to be both simple and difficult. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

[nikolino840]

There was partisans or some kind of rebels in germany?
In Italy many roads are named After some partisans death or there Is signs in Memory Who fall becouse their are against the fascists rules and soldiers

 

[SpartanForce]

I would like to recommend this documentary:



Some did serve for prussian ideals of carrer but come on. Hitler's book was widespread and the wehrmacht wanted the "living space" (kill all "jewish-bolcheviques") since the start in 1941.
If people read sonke neitzel books you can clearly see the mentality of the germans. Helping the SD with massive killing or rape was normal.

My question stands because this clean wehrmacht myth needs to end for good.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

Nazis were members of the government.

Actual Nazi Soldiers were called the Waffen SS

Waffen-SS - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Read that as "WaffleSS" Way too early in Cali, rn.

 

[petran79]

Generally speaking I would probably say no. But lest be real here all sides of the war both Allies and Axis committed horrible war crimes especially the Russians and Germans mostly to each other.

Brits were as ruthless as the Germans. They bombed Athens in 1944 and sold the belongings of Greek refugees that had abandoned some islands to the bazaars of the Middle East and Cyprus

 

[Dunki]

The real question is why does Europe always start World Wars like chill.

It was bascially always Germany not Europe^^

My great-grandpa fought for the kaiser in WW1 and was decorated with the iron cross (probably 2nd class). When he saw the rise of nazism he fled to the USA with his family and here we are.

The soldiers in the german army knew what they were getting into. They had time to say no. Perhaps they didn't believe every single bit of the nazi propaganda (which was often shifting and changing depending on the circumstances) but they definitely believed in the rise of the Motherland.

Yeah that is not as easy as you make it to be. NBot following orders meant death. You could be excuted on the spot for not following orders. Especially in War times this is in extreme situations still the case. Nomal soldiers had no choice but to fight. It was fighting, jail or death. As for the Higher ranks. Of course they knew what was going on but in the end if they believed it or not. They also had not much choice on the matter. People like Himmler or Goebels were fuill into it of course.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Yeah that is not as easy as you make it to be. NBot following orders meant death. You could be excuted on the spot for not following orders. Especially in War times this is in extreme situations still the case. Nomal soldiers had no choice but to fight. It was fighting, jail or death. As for the Higher ranks. Of course they knew what was going on but in the end if they believed it or not. They also had not much choice on the matter. People like Himmler or Goebels were fuill into it of course.

Pacifist religious leaders like Bonnhoeffer found ways to resist and fight against the Nazis. He was executed for it.

There's no point in watering down morality and saying "they had no choice". Heroes are heroes because they are uncommon. If the german people had resisted the war en masse and chosen not to fight, Hitler would've never risen up and we could've saved ourselves a few million deaths.

I never once said it was "easy". I said it was a simple choice.

 

[Dunki]

Pacifist religious leaders like Bonnhoeffer found ways to resist and fight against the Nazis. He was executed for it.

There's no point in watering down morality and saying "they had no choice". Heroes are heroes because they are uncommon. If the german people had resisted the war en masse and chosen not to fight, Hitler would've never risen up and we could've saved ourselves a few million deaths.

I never once said it was "easy". I said it was a simple choice.

you are expecting people being strong minded and everyone is a hero. That is not the case. People have various mind sets and phychology. We are not all the same and many were also broken by their acts they had to do. I am not saying everyone is innocent. But most of them fighting as soldiers had no other choice. As for the stuff that did happen before. Hitler was a mastermind in terms of manipulation. Most people did not even noticed it while burning books. destroying jewish shhops etc. They were brainwashed and Hitler started this brainwashing with his Hitler jugend. which sole purpose was to train soldiers who follow his orders. Hitler went also for very communists believes and the killing of individualism in General.

Even if you say something like they had a choice. I wonder how you would have reacted. But in the end we never will know.

 

[Halo is Back]

Brits were as ruthless as the Germans. They bombed Athens in 1944 and sold the belongings of Greek refugees that had abandoned some islands to the bazaars of the Middle East and Cyprus

They were the ones that invented carpet bombing but at the same time I also understand their hate towards Germany since they started bombing their civilians early in the war. But like a user said before it was a really fucked up war no Nation’s hands were clean. In the end the civilians were the ones who suffered the most.