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[DunDunDunpachi]

you are expecting people being strong minded and everyone is a hero. That is not the case. People have various mind sets and phychology. We are not all the same and many were also broken by their acts they had to do. I am not saying everyone is innocent. But most of them fighting as soldiers had no other choice. As for the stuff that did happen before. Hitler was a mastermind in terms of manipulation. Most people did not even noticed it while burning books. destroying jewish shhops etc. They were brainwashed and Hitler started this brainwashing with his Hitler jugend. which sole purpose was to train soldiers who follow his orders. Hitler went also for very communists believes and the killing of individualism in General.

Even if you say something like they had a choice. I wonder how you would have reacted. But in the end we never will know.

I'm literally agreeing with you that heroes are uncommon and making moral choices is a hard thing to do.

The thing with morals is that -- if you believe they are True -- then they should not bend. There is no moral justification for "just following orders". I also wonder how I would have reacted. Since some of my german heritage is mixed with jewish heritage, I'm not sure I would have been given much of a choice.

There is always a choice. You are wrong. Perhaps each of us would also have acted like cowards and would have caved, but that does not change whether it was right or wrong.

 

[SpartanForce]

I mean, Henning von Tresckow, part of the resistance to kill Hitler, did this:

"As Chief of Staff of the 2nd Army, Tresckow signed an order on 28 June 1944 to abduct Polish and Ukrainian children in the so-called Heu-Aktion (Hay Action). Between 40,000 and 50,000 Polish and Ukrainian children aged 10 to 14 were kidnapped for Nazi Germany's forced labour programme. The order read in part "In operations against gangs, any boys and girls taken between ages 10 and 13 who are physically healthy, and whose parents either cannot be located or who, as persons unable to work, are to be sent to the area earmarked for remaining families (the dregs are to be sent to the Reich)."

The kidnapped children were used as forced workers in the Todt organisation, Junkers factories and in German handicrafts as part of an operation to "lower biological strength" of the enemies of Nazi Germany.

Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany has been classified by the Nuremberg Tribunal as part of a systematic programme of genocide. Alfred Rosenberg, who also signed the documents for Heu Aktion, was found guilty by the Nuremberg Tribunal, and his signing of the document was mentioned in the final verdict"

What the fuck man. How come this guy and Stauffenberg are considered heroes?

 

[Halo is Back]

I mean, Henning von Tresckow, part of the resistance to kill Hitler, did this:

"As Chief of Staff of the 2nd Army, Tresckow signed an order on 28 June 1944 to abduct Polish and Ukrainian children in the so-called Heu-Aktion (Hay Action). Between 40,000 and 50,000 Polish and Ukrainian children aged 10 to 14 were kidnapped for Nazi Germany's forced labour programme. The order read in part "In operations against gangs, any boys and girls taken between ages 10 and 13 who are physically healthy, and whose parents either cannot be located or who, as persons unable to work, are to be sent to the area earmarked for remaining families (the dregs are to be sent to the Reich)."

The kidnapped children were used as forced workers in the Todt organisation, Junkers factories and in German handicrafts as part of an operation to "lower biological strength" of the enemies of Nazi Germany.

Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany has been classified by the Nuremberg Tribunal as part of a systematic programme of genocide. Alfred Rosenberg, who also signed the documents for Heu Aktion, was found guilty by the Nuremberg Tribunal, and his signing of the document was mentioned in the final verdict"

What the fuck man. How come this guy and Stauffenberg are considered heroes?

How do you not know he signed those papers out of peer pressure? It was know that Hitler wanted to ensure genetic superiority of the Arian race whatever Hitler wanted he enforced. I’m not justifying it but at LEAST he tried to atone for his sins and end the war by assassinating Hitler. Fun fact many people actually tried to assinate Hitler but it was not like it was an easy thing to do especially when their are also many other military officials who were die hard Nazis. They couldn’t just kill Hitler and call it a day they actually needed to gain back control of the government to surrender to the Allies.

 

[SpartanForce]

How do you not know he signed those papers out of peer pressure? It was know that Hitler wanted to ensure genetic superiority of the Arian race whatever Hitler wanted he enforced. I’m not justifying it but at LEAST he tried to atone for his sins and end the war by assassinating Hitler. Fun fact many people actually tried to assinate Hitler but it was not like it was an easy thing to do especially when their are also many other military officials who were die hard Nazis. They couldn’t just kill Hitler and call it a day they actually needed to gain back control of the government to surrender to the Allies.

But they wanted to kill Hitler and continue the war with the soviets. How the people involved are heroes? If Hitler was dead they should surrender asp not fight russia.

 

[Halo is Back]

But they wanted to kill Hitler and continue the war with the soviets. How the people involved are heroes? If Hitler was dead they should surrender asp not fight russia.

How do you know they wanted to continue the fight with Russia?

Also I said before they couldn’t just surrender ASAP. Other branches of the German government would have challenged them. They needed control of the government for a official political surrender. It’s not as easy as waving the white flag.

 

[SpartanForce]

How do you know they wanted to continue the fight with Russia?

Also I said before they couldn’t just surrender ASAP. Other branches of the German government would have challenged them. They needed control of the government for a official political surrender. It’s not as easy as waving the white flag.

"I. The Führer Adolf Hitler is dead!

An unscrupulous clique of party leaders alien to the front has attempted, under the exploitation of this situation, to betray the hard-struggling front and to seize power for their own selfish purposes.
II. In this hour of greatest danger, the government of the Reich has declared a state of military emergency for the maintenance of law and order and at the same time has transferred the executive power, with the supreme command of the Wehrmacht, to me.

III. With this, I order:

1. I transfer the executive power – with the right of delegation, to the territorial commanders – on the home front, to the commander of the army reserves under the simultaneous appointment to the supreme commander in the homeland war – in the occupied western area, to the supreme commander west – in Italy, to the supreme commander southwest – in the occupied eastern area, to the supreme commander of the army groups and the commander of the Wehrmacht eastern land for their respective area of command – in Denmark and Norway, to the Wehrmacht commander. 2. The holders of executive power have control over: a) all sections and units of the Wehrmacht, including the Waffen-SS, RAD and the OT, within their area of command; b) all public authorities (of the Reich, Germany, the states and the municipalities), especially the entire law enforcement police, security police and administrative police; c) all office bearers and subdivisions of the NSDAP and those of its affiliated associations; d) the transportation services and public utilities 3. The entire Waffen-SS is integrated into the army with immediate effect. 4. The holders of executive power are responsible for the maintenance of public order and security. They especially have to ensure: a) the protection of communications b) the elimination of the SD (Security Service).
Any opposition to the military power of enforcement is to be ruthlessly crushed.
In this hour of highest danger for the Fatherland, unity of the Wehrmacht and the maintenance of full discipline are the uppermost requirements.
That is why I make it the duty of all commanders of the army, the navy, and the air force to support the holders of executive power in carrying out their difficult task with all means at their disposal and to guarantee the compliance of their directives by the subordinate sections. The German soldier stands before a historical task. It will depend on his energy and attitude whether Germany will be saved."

I'm sorry to use wikipedia links but my books are more focus on the waffen-ss and its role. I do have books like I said of sonke neitz but they don't talk much about valkyrie.

 

[Halo is Back]

"I. The Führer Adolf Hitler is dead!

An unscrupulous clique of party leaders alien to the front has attempted, under the exploitation of this situation, to betray the hard-struggling front and to seize power for their own selfish purposes.
II. In this hour of greatest danger, the government of the Reich has declared a state of military emergency for the maintenance of law and order and at the same time has transferred the executive power, with the supreme command of the Wehrmacht, to me.

III. With this, I order:

1. I transfer the executive power – with the right of delegation, to the territorial commanders – on the home front, to the commander of the army reserves under the simultaneous appointment to the supreme commander in the homeland war – in the occupied western area, to the supreme commander west – in Italy, to the supreme commander southwest – in the occupied eastern area, to the supreme commander of the army groups and the commander of the Wehrmacht eastern land for their respective area of command – in Denmark and Norway, to the Wehrmacht commander. 2. The holders of executive power have control over: a) all sections and units of the Wehrmacht, including the Waffen-SS, RAD and the OT, within their area of command; b) all public authorities (of the Reich, Germany, the states and the municipalities), especially the entire law enforcement police, security police and administrative police; c) all office bearers and subdivisions of the NSDAP and those of its affiliated associations; d) the transportation services and public utilities 3. The entire Waffen-SS is integrated into the army with immediate effect. 4. The holders of executive power are responsible for the maintenance of public order and security. They especially have to ensure: a) the protection of communications b) the elimination of the SD (Security Service).
Any opposition to the military power of enforcement is to be ruthlessly crushed.
In this hour of highest danger for the Fatherland, unity of the Wehrmacht and the maintenance of full discipline are the uppermost requirements.
That is why I make it the duty of all commanders of the army, the navy, and the air force to support the holders of executive power in carrying out their difficult task with all means at their disposal and to guarantee the compliance of their directives by the subordinate sections. The German soldier stands before a historical task. It will depend on his energy and attitude whether Germany will be saved."

I'm sorry to use wikipedia links but my books are more focus on the waffen-ss and its role. I do have books like I said of sonke neitz but they don't talk much about valkyrie.

I don't see any mention of continuing the fight against Russia and continuing the war in general.

 

[Halo is Back]

Also if Hitler was really Dead Russia would have kept fighting anyways. The supreme commander of germans forces would have to physically meet with both the Russian and Americans to sign an unconditional surrender. Even when Hitler DID commit suicide Stalin continued the fight in Germany until the official unconditioned surrender of all german forces (which was something not any german commander could do)

 

[SpartanForce]

wiki again

"On D-Day, 6 June 1944, the Allies had landed in France. Stauffenberg, like most other German professional military officers, had absolutely no doubt that the war was lost. Only an immediate armistice could avoid more unnecessary bloodshed and further damage to Germany, its people, and other European nations. However, in late 1943, he had written out demands with which he felt the Allies had to comply in order for Germany to agree to an immediate peace. These demands included Germany retaining its 1914 eastern borders, including the Polish territories of Wielkopolska and Poznań. Other demands included keeping such territorial gains as Austria and the Sudetenland within the Reich, giving autonomy to Alsace-Lorraine, and even expansion of the current wartime borders of Germany in the south by annexing Tyrol as far as Bozen and Meran. Non-territorial demands included such points as refusal of any occupation of Germany by the Allies, as well as refusal to hand over war criminals by demanding the right of "nations to deal with its own criminals". These proposals were only directed to the Western Allies – Stauffenberg wanted Germany only to retreat from western, southern and northern positions, while demanding the right to continue military occupation of German territorial gains in the east."

I don't think Stalin would allow that.

 

[Halo is Back]

wiki again

"On D-Day, 6 June 1944, the Allies had landed in France. Stauffenberg, like most other German professional military officers, had absolutely no doubt that the war was lost. Only an immediate armistice could avoid more unnecessary bloodshed and further damage to Germany, its people, and other European nations. However, in late 1943, he had written out demands with which he felt the Allies had to comply in order for Germany to agree to an immediate peace. These demands included Germany retaining its 1914 eastern borders, including the Polish territories of Wielkopolska and Poznań. Other demands included keeping such territorial gains as Austria and the Sudetenland within the Reich, giving autonomy to Alsace-Lorraine, and even expansion of the current wartime borders of Germany in the south by annexing Tyrol as far as Bozen and Meran. Non-territorial demands included such points as refusal of any occupation of Germany by the Allies, as well as refusal to hand over war criminals by demanding the right of "nations to deal with its own criminals". These proposals were only directed to the Western Allies – Stauffenberg wanted Germany only to retreat from western, southern and northern positions, while demanding the right to continue military occupation of German territorial gains in the east."

I don't think Stalin would allow that.

That just means they wanted to retain lands in the East not continue the war. But yes of course Stalin wouldn’t allow that and neither would the Allies. This surrender would have been shot down by both parties.

 

[Kusanagi2086]

That just means they wanted to retain lands in the East not continue the war. But yes of course Stalin wouldn’t allow that and neither would the Allies. This surrender would have been shot down by both parties.

Fun fact when the allies crossed into Germany in 1945 some artillery units used against the western allies was turned around against Russians while buying time for their units to cross the Allied lines and surrender.

It was less than a days walk from the western front to the eastern front at that point.

 

[Halo is Back]

Fun fact when the allies crossed into Germany in 1945 some artillery units used against the western allies was turned around against Russians while buying time for their units to cross the Allied lines and surrender.

It was less than a days walk from the western front to the eastern front at that point.

True the Allies knew Russia would claim most of Eastern Europe to themselves so there was a “race” to take Berlin first.

 

[Kamina]

Moral choices tend to be both simple and difficult. They are not mutually exclusive.

Its nice that you call them “choices”, however, everyone who didnt comply would also recieve a one way ticket to the nearest concentration camp.
In truth, its was a matter of choosing to fight to survive or certain death.

 

[appaws]

The real question is why does Europe always start World Wars like chill.

I've always argued that what we call "world wars" are really just the ideological civil wars of western civilization. That includes the cold war.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Its nice that you call them “choices”, however, everyone who didnt comply would also recieve a one way ticket to the nearest concentration camp.
In truth, its was a matter of choosing to fight to survive or certain death.

Sounds like an excuse for wrongdoing. That's the nature of morality: yours is meaningless if you bend your morals when faced by ultimate evil. We can shrug and say "well they were put into a tough spot" or ask ourselves "would I have done it differently or gone along?" but that is not in any way an answer to whether the choice is right or wrong.

Survival is not an inherent good. Western civilization was built upon the idea of a noble sacrifice (among other ideals).

 

[Kamina]

Sounds like an excuse for wrongdoing. That's the nature of morality: yours is meaningless if you bend your morals when faced by ultimate evil. We can shrug and say "well they were put into a tough spot" or ask ourselves "would I have done it differently or gone along?" but that is not in any way an answer to whether the choice is right or wrong.

Survival is not an inherent good. Western civilization was built upon the idea of a noble sacrifice (among other ideals).

That might be morally and philosophically correct, however far from reality if you consider the inherent will to survive most humans have, as well as the fact that people needed to protect their families.

In the end its very easy to live in this time and judge about the shortcomings of the past. Experiencing the past however, with all the pressure, brainwashing, threats, and systematic mental manipulations is a complete different thing.

 

[Halo is Back]

I've always argued that what we call "world wars" are really just the ideological civil wars of western civilization. That includes the cold war.

Sure that true for WW1 but not WW2 most people forget the conquest of Japan is the East. They crushed all opposition including China

 

[Tesseract]

it's tough to know what kinda mettle you have until you are fire tested (everyone wants to be the guy)

a craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. and we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. how easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. yet soon or late in every man's life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose.

 

[TheContact]

The army was not Nazi at all. Band of Brothers even brings this up. A lot of the soldiers in the Army were no different than the soldiers in the alliance. It was just the elites, the SS, and the Nazi Youth. Even then, many in the Nazi party didn't agree with Hitler. He had so many assassination attempts and survived each one by miracles.

 

[SpartanForce]

The army was not Nazi at all. Band of Brothers even brings this up. A lot of the soldiers in the Army were no different than the soldiers in the alliance. It was just the elites, the SS, and the Nazi Youth. Even then, many in the Nazi party didn't agree with Hitler. He had so many assassination attempts and survived each one by miracles.

No. Großdeutschland division for example was way more important that any Waffen-SS division. This myth of the first SS divisions and the HJ division being elite is propaganda. But hell, I do give credits for saving the heer like the 3rd totenkopf did at Demyansk. That was some crazy shit.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

That might be morally and philosophically correct, however far from reality if you consider the inherent will to survive most humans have, as well as the fact that people needed to protect their families.

It's not far from reality at all. It is why I referenced a meek Lutheran pastor/author (Bonnhoeffer) who put his comfort and his religious convictions to the test for the sake of resisting Hitler's regime.

In the end its very easy to live in this time and judge about the shortcomings of the past. Experiencing the past however, with all the pressure, brainwashing, threats, and systematic mental manipulations is a complete different thing.

Of course it's a completely different thing. It doesn't alter the morality of the choices made, however.

 

[Kamina]

Of course it's a completely different thing. It doesn't alter the morality of the choices made, however.

Moral is alway a matter of the point of view though. At least for the person to make the decision.
If your picture shows you only certain options you are inclined to take the path that seems best for you.
So what might seem morally wrong (or not the best option) for us was just the only acceptable path to be seen by the person in question.

In the end it is as i said: judging about the past is way to easy from our point of view.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Moral is alway a matter of the point of view though. At least for the person to make the decision.
If your picture shows you only certain options you are inclined to take the path that seems best for you.
So what might seem morally wrong (or not the best option) for us was just the only acceptable path to be seen by the person in question.

In the end it is as i said: judging about the past is way to easy from our point of view.

I agree that judging the past might be easier from our point of view, but that is irrelevant. Either their choice to go along with tyranny was right or it was wrong. I do not believe in moral relativism or situational morality because it results in feel-good morality without any teeth.

 

[petran79]

you are expecting people being strong minded and everyone is a hero. That is not the case. People have various mind sets and phychology. We are not all the same and many were also broken by their acts they had to do. I am not saying everyone is innocent. But most of them fighting as soldiers had no other choice. As for the stuff that did happen before. Hitler was a mastermind in terms of manipulation. Most people did not even noticed it while burning books. destroying jewish shhops etc. They were brainwashed and Hitler started this brainwashing with his Hitler jugend. which sole purpose was to train soldiers who follow his orders. Hitler went also for very communists believes and the killing of individualism in General.

Even if you say something like they had a choice. I wonder how you would have reacted. But in the end we never will know.

Germany had a much tighter grip on the population, perhaps even more than Franco's Spain and Mussolini's Italy, who had met much more resistance. The military and industrial complex supporting Nazism was on a whole other league compared to other fascist countries. While rest of Europe had military dictators but without that strong of an ideology. Hitler was also inspired by Turkey's Kemal Pasha and the whole regime admired him, hence the recent Turkish sports salutes alluded to those dark times

 

[Kamina]

I agree that judging the past might be easier from our point of view, but that is irrelevant.

I don’t think it is irrelevant. We judge based on what we know now from a morally elevated point of view, while people back then barely had a glimpse of the whole picture.
I am certain that many people would have decided in different ways if they knew what we know now.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I don’t think it is irrelevant. We judge based on what we know now from a morally elevated point of view, while people back then barely had a glimpse of the whole picture.
I am certain that many people would have decided in different ways if they knew what we know now.

You make it sound as though the germans in the 1930s and 1940s didn't have enough information to make a moral decision. That's untrue, since there were plenty of people who made a moral objection and a moral resistance to what the Nazis were doing. There were thousands, tens of thousands, millions, even, who resisted the Nazi's ideology and their plans for the world.

I don't think many people would have acted differently if they had today's knowledge, based on the Milgram shock experiments. Rather, it is the individual's moral fortitude that keeps them from committing an immoral act. This moral fortitude comes from providence and from culture, and the german culture was not so far gone that they were without their religious roots.

 

[Dev1lXYZ]

You make it sound as though the germans in the 1930s and 1940s didn't have enough information to make a moral decision. That's untrue, since there were plenty of people who made a moral objection and a moral resistance to what the Nazis were doing. There were thousands, tens of thousands, millions, even, who resisted the Nazi's ideology and their plans for the world.

I don't think many people would have acted differently if they had today's knowledge, based on the Milgram shock experiments. Rather, it is the individual's moral fortitude that keeps them from committing an immoral act. This moral fortitude comes from providence and from culture, and the german culture was not so far gone that they were without their religious roots.

Hitler restored the pride of the German people. That’s what overcame that moral fortitude. Pride and greed are very, very powerful motivators.

 

[MacReady13]

he was the fucking best

monster pilot who got his shoulder blown off mid flight, still managed to stay conscious and land onto a cable carrier's arresting gear

the right stuff, that generation

Fucking legend he was. I can guarantee you that generation of hard asses never worried about safe spaces and trigger warnings (no pun intended)...

 

[Gifmaker]

I don't think that everyone fighting or working for the Nazis was happy about it or agreed with their philosophies. Thinking that each and everyone was 100% an evil badguy is a fool's mindset. But from what I learned about various aspects of the Nazi government, it looks like the regime was exceptionally good at awakening the darkest sides in even the lowliest people. Like "wilde Euthanasie", where doctors and nurses literally murdered thousands of patients with starving, freezing and wrong treatment to free up space in hospitals for the coming war. The regime excelled in manipulating such people to bring out their very worst character traits in everybody, and that was a frightening talent of the NS government.

 

[Kenpachii]

Hitler restored the pride of the German people. That’s what overcame that moral fortitude. Pride and greed are very, very powerful motivators.

Pretty much lots of people also hated the jews and saw anything right from germany the people as animals ( also something most of those documentairy's won't talk about because not the fibe they want to create ), then with propaganda being spread and people being extremely young in general it was easy to get stuff to go the way it did.

Like those soldiers in that documentairy said, i grew up with that guy i fought with and then he got rained with bullits from top to bottom, that guy will no longer have any "moral problems" against his enemy. And start to push boundaries further and further which creates more and more disgusting environment which people then start to follow just to not be on the other side of the line. Because turning on people in that area was incredible easy. U don't align with us? traitor, hidden jew etc.

The whole moral discussion about "well morally u shouldn't do it" is all stuff people try to reflect on now and how things where or not. If you where not visiting the book burning crusades in your town in a full hitler outfit u would be seen as a hidden jew or a traitor and shot the next day. It's easy talk now when u sit behind a PC and nothing happens to you.

Also good luck making a stance, when your commander throws baby's into a ditch, hammers pregnant woman to death and shoot and hangs kids as national sport. WIth a wasp of traumatized soldiers that only want to fight and would cull u the next day if needed. U even see the turning on eachother in politics all day long now imagine if you had to gamble with your life and get no stage in a backyard, yea good luck with that.

There was a reason why that kid runned as german soldier over towards swiss i believe. If he complained he would be in the ditch next towards them.

It's like standing in a black life matters group of people, and say n word endlessly and that they all need to die. But they all are loaded with guns and are busy already executing woman and children like its national sport day the entire day, u will join them into that mass grave 10 seconds later. Specially when there is nothing to judge or stop them even remotely. Easy talk. There is a reason why solders fled and deserted instead of confront.

Even those commanders that got recorded didn't dare to speak even under there own commanders while in jail anything critical because they where afraid of the backslash it would create for them and there family's which would be next in line to be culled. Also something people don't realize. A tactic even left starts to use in the US now, if they can't harass the target person they will go towards there kids.

And this is what is mostly wrong with the modern day of looking at how things are, we look it through the eyes of current generations views where killing a bunny in the woods is already seen as unhuman ( yea this is not a joke, most people don't make the elite squats in militairy because they can't kill a animal for food ).

While when u are in a war invested enviroment with nothing to eat, u will eat freaking worms and grass and kill whatever has 4 legs to roast it even if its a rat a cat or a neighbor dog. Lots of them where sick and tired of everything that happened in that area with deep depressions, zero pride and zero way forwards. U will bite on whatever comes your way.

Most of the documentairy's do not align up much with what people really think. You think they would interview a german and say the jews deserved it? ofcourse not because he's on the culling list the next day and the documentary will be called white nazi supremacist material and the writer will be culled.

Even today we got people deadly afraid to say there opinion. Go stand in china next toward the president and his death squad that shoot woman and children and harvest organs all day long that u think those people are disgusting and china needs freedom. Yea do you honestly think u will walk outside still alive? lol nope.

 

[appaws]

Germany had a much tighter grip on the population, perhaps even more than Franco's Spain and Mussolini's Italy, who had met much more resistance. The military and industrial complex supporting Nazism was on a whole other league compared to other fascist countries. While rest of Europe had military dictators but without that strong of an ideology. Hitler was also inspired by Turkey's Kemal Pasha and the whole regime admired him, hence the recent Turkish sports salutes alluded to those dark times

Germans are inherently easier to control than Italians or Spaniards. Mediterranean types are not as well behaved.

 

[Kamina]

You make it sound as though the germans in the 1930s and 1940s didn't have enough information to make a moral decision. That's untrue, since there were plenty of people who made a moral objection and a moral resistance to what the Nazis were doing. There were thousands, tens of thousands, millions, even, who resisted the Nazi's ideology and their plans for the world.

I don't think many people would have acted differently if they had today's knowledge, based on the Milgram shock experiments. Rather, it is the individual's moral fortitude that keeps them from committing an immoral act. This moral fortitude comes from providence and from culture, and the german culture was not so far gone that they were without their religious roots.

You make it sound like everyone knew exactly what was going on, while that is simply not true.
Yes there were plenty of people who knew and rejected the regime, it might have even been the majority, who knows, but that doesn’t mean that they knew enough to actively resist.
Remember that it was forbidden to listen to foreign radio so how would people know when nobody told them?
Many only knew what was happening in front of their eyes or what the propaganda machine told them.
Sure, that was enough to make certain moral decisions, but was it enough to put your own life at risk?
Obviously it wasn’t because it didn’t happen.

Look, my point is that we seem to think that the population should have risen against the regime like we see it nowadays. But the times were different, information wasnt as readily available, and people had different mindsets.
An uprise not happening doesn’t make everyone a nazi or nazi-supporter.

 

[SpartanForce]

You make it sound like everyone knew exactly what was going on, while that is simply not true.
Yes there were plenty of people who knew and rejected the regime, it might have even been the majority, who knows, but that doesn’t mean that they knew enough to actively resist.
Remember that it was forbidden to listen to foreign radio so how would people know when nobody told them?
Many only knew what was happening in front of their eyes or what the propaganda machine told them.
Sure, that was enough to make certain moral decisions, but was it enough to put your own life at risk?
Obviously it wasn’t because it didn’t happen.

Look, my point is that we seem to think that the population should have risen against the regime like we see it nowadays. But the times were different, information wasnt as readily available, and people had different mindsets.
An uprise not happening doesn’t make everyone a nazi or nazi-supporter.

Sry to break you, but the major population of Germany knew about the holocaust. Einsatzgruppen and Totenkopfverbände members send tons of letters about what was going on. Some with pride, some with remorse.

[...] Almost certainly, the canvas containing this single but extraordinary portrait will enlarge in size and significance, as the enormous and rapidly growing public interest in the Holocaust continues to stimulate and strengthen the scope and the caliber of scholarship devoted to the SS.

There can also be little doubt that the last paragraph of suggestion in the Afterword to the original edition of this book resonates now with a volume and clarity scarcely anticipated then. What Professor Gerhard L. Weinberg defined fifteen years ago as "the National Socialist consensus" was in fact, and is in history, a phenomenon of many dimensions. Among those who sought to build the Hitlerian New Order atop the graveyard of civilization, a most powerful and dynamic convention was the accepted belief, or shared assumption, in the absolute incompatiibility of the Nazi Millennium and Jewish survival in it.

For each agency and unit, and for all the officers and men, thoroughout the immense ideological conglomerate that was the wartime Nazi SS and police. [...] welding together in a community of consensus as "the executive instrument of the Fuhrer's will" - the wartime SS, the single most important institution of the Hitlerian age.

W. Sydnor Jr., C. Soldiers of Destruction: Revised ed. Edition. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, pg. 350, 1990.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust

 

[petran79]

Germans are inherently easier to control than Italians or Spaniards. Mediterranean types are not as well behaved.

Only inside their own country. Outside they go wild. Opposite goes for Mediterraneans going to Germany

 

[Kamina]

Sry to break you, but the major population of Germany knew about the holocaust. Einsatzgruppen and Totenkopfverbände members send tons of letters about what was going on. Some with pride, some with remorse.

[...] Almost certainly, the canvas containing this single but extraordinary portrait will enlarge in size and significance, as the enormous and rapidly growing public interest in the Holocaust continues to stimulate and strengthen the scope and the caliber of scholarship devoted to the SS.

There can also be little doubt that the last paragraph of suggestion in the Afterword to the original edition of this book resonates now with a volume and clarity scarcely anticipated then. What Professor Gerhard L. Weinberg defined fifteen years ago as "the National Socialist consensus" was in fact, and is in history, a phenomenon of many dimensions. Among those who sought to build the Hitlerian New Order atop the graveyard of civilization, a most powerful and dynamic convention was the accepted belief, or shared assumption, in the absolute incompatiibility of the Nazi Millennium and Jewish survival in it.

For each agency and unit, and for all the officers and men, thoroughout the immense ideological conglomerate that was the wartime Nazi SS and police. [...] welding together in a community of consensus as "the executive instrument of the Fuhrer's will" - the wartime SS, the single most important institution of the Hitlerian age.

W. Sydnor Jr., C. Soldiers of Destruction: Revised ed. Edition. Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, pg. 350, 1990.

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust

Its one thing to read, but another to see, experience and understand.

 

[SpartanForce]

Its one thing to read, but another to see, experience and understand.

So all historians should have emotional empiricism to tell what went down? Or yet, german civilians with a collective guilt? I don't believe it. But hey, it's a free world...

 

[Kamina]

So all historians should have emotional empiricism to tell what went down? Or yet, german civilians with a collective guilt? I don't believe it. But hey, it's a free world...

WTF? We are talking about what the people back then knew and not the people now. And dont tell me reading about the corps piles in the concentration camps is as bad as actually seeing the corps piles in person.
Don’t lift off with weird assumptions.
The point was that people seem to think that the germans should have completely understood the situation and stopped Hitler there and then by collectively resisting, by stating that they “had all the information” and “knew exactly what was going on”, so they “could have made a noble sacrifice” (at least that is what came through).
They surely knew some things and that they weren’t good, but it apparently wasn't enough to go and actively resist while putting their lifes and the ones of their families at risk.
We are talking from a moral high ground here, but we have no clue what it really is like to live in those times, with the past’s mindset, brainwashing propaganda, pressure and imminent danger.

 

[SpartanForce]

Well, think what you will. Not my problem.
The thread is about the wehrmacht, anyway.

 

[Kamina]

Well, think what you will. Not my problem.

Sure, whatever

The thread is about the wehrmacht, anyway.

To answer your thread the second time:
No the Wehrmacht was not “nazi” as it was not part of the National Socialistic German Workers Party, but under the command of the German Reich.
There might have been individual soldiers who were members of the party though.
Apart from that, we can only speculate on the soldier’s individual believes.

 

[SpartanForce]

Your source is...?

 

[Kamina]

Your source is...?

History books? A Nazi is someone who is part of the party, be it official back then or unofficial nowdays (NSDAP is forbidden in Germany and Austria)
Someone isnt a Nazi just because Reee trolls call people that.

 

[SpartanForce]

Cool. History books. One of these books were "Lost Victories" by Erich von Manstein? Because you sound just like him.

 

[Kamina]

Cool. History books. One of these books were "Lost Victories" by Erich von Manstein? Because you sound just like him.

What kind of mushrooms are you on? I am talking about school books mostly. The type we study with here in Austria.
If you believe that every german having served in the Wehrmacht is/was a nazi then you are an ignorant fool.

 

[Gargus]

the right stuff, that generation

 

[Hudo]

I can actually recommend a German-made three-part movie "Generation War (Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter)" (I don't know whether there's an English dub or just subtitles) that's about young people getting into the Wehrmacht and experiencing war. I think it might help to get a feeling of what it might have felt like from the German point of view.



I can also recommend the famous movie "Das Boot", which also give a bit of an impression on how the German Navy thought and felt about the war. And of course, "Der Untergang", which portrays the last couple of days of the people in the Führerbunker, including Hitler himself. Also goes to show the "Stockholm Syndrom"-like behaviour some exhibited, where they were still loyal to Hitler even playing along with his delusions, knowing that he was spouting bullshit and that the war is already lost. It's obviously less "common soldier"-centric, I would argue. It's more about the higher-ranking Nazis, the SS and civilians. Bruno Ganz' perfomance as Hitler is very impressive, IMHO. And the actor portraying Goebbels was unsettling just from his looks alone.

 

[poppabk]

What kind of mushrooms are you on? I am talking about school books mostly. The type we study with here in Austria.
If you believe that every german having served in the Wehrmacht is/was a nazi then you are an ignorant fool.

They were soldiers. The American soldiers in Vietnam were fighting a war to prop up a corrupt evil regime in a proxy war with the USSR. Even if they knew, they were told to fight for their country so they fought for their country. Some did some evil shit in their countries name. Does that mean every soldier in Vietnam was evil? Of course not, they were doing their duty, that is how war works.

 

[Clear]

The German Navy were the least Nazi-fied of the services despite nominally being under Hitler's direct control, most of the admiralty being old school aristocrats loyal primarily to Hindenburg. Conversely the Luftwaffe were the most heavily radicalized as it was under Göring's command. There was constant infighting between the two services which led to situations where air support to the Kriegsmarine was denied out of personal spite.

I always found it an ironic retort to the whole idea of Nazi Germany as a smooth-running war machine that this long running spat hampered their efforts throughout the war, particularly during the Barbarossa campaign against the Soviet Union.