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[MagiusNecros]

Super Castlevania 4 successor is all I ask.

 

[demidar]

No they aren't.

I got started on SoTN so that's what I most like, but I wouldn't say they are the true Castlevanias. Haven't played the linear stage-by-stage games before so I don't really have an opinion on them.

 

[QisTopTier]

I got started on SoTN so that's what I most like, but I wouldn't say they are the true Castlevanias. Haven't played the linear stage-by-stage games before so I don't really have an opinion on them.

SotN is shit compared to those imo I fucking hate what the whole Metroidvania shit did to the series

 

[Thrakier]

WHAT IS A MAN???

 

[demidar]

SotN is shit compared to those imo I fucking hate what the whole Metroidvania shit did to the series

You know the reason why they essentially switched genres?

 

[@MUWANdo]

Konami's too lazy to do new sprites. Hell, don't the DS vanias still use sprites from SotN? And didn't SotN use sprites from even older games, too, like Rondo of Blood?

It's not that IGA and his team wouldn't do it if they could, it just wasn't cost-effective, especially given the budgets they were allotted. SOTN established a standard in terms of content/volume that they couldn't afford to let slip if they wanted to continue making games in that style.

Seriously, I hear this "sprite based graphics are so expensive" argument all the time. What does this argument even stand for? What does it mean? That no one should EVER do sprite based graphics again?!

I'd also like to know HOW expensive they are. How much did games like Metal Slug cost? I don't know.

SoTN was a sprite based game, so a sprite based efford to evolve it in the right direction makes a lot of sense. Especially since 2D Platformers are celebrating a sort of comeback (through improved technology) and lot's of people are longing for 2D Castlevanias.

I just can't believe that a hypotetical 2D high-quality sprite/animation based SOTN 2 would cost THAT MUCH, or much more than a midtier game.

Also, we're in the year 2012 - there must be ways of producing sprite graphics cheaper and faster.

The amount of effort and manpower required to draw a SOTN-esque amount of sprites/BGs/etc in HD is massive and would easily dwarf that of the prettiest 2DHD games around like Rayman Origins, let alone twenty-year-old games like Metal Slug or whatever. It's not that no-one wants a proper 2DHD CV game, it's just that people have accepted that Konami won't even put up the relatively tiny budgets for another game with Rondo sprites, let along something of that magnitude, so we've all given up hope.

Harmony of Despair and Hard Corps Uprising were Konami's way of testing the waters for that sort of thing, I think. I guess we all know how that turned out.

 

[Midou]

SotN is shit compared to those imo I fucking hate what the whole Metroidvania shit did to the series

I hate what it did to the series, but I still love SOTN. I played it for the first time after going through 1,3,SCV4 and Rondo, and I do love the originals, but the feel of SOTN was pretty great and it flowed nicely. I couldn't stand any of the handheld ones though, they felt far more janky to me. Though if no SOTN meant we got more like Rondo of Blood, I'd be happy to give it up.

 

[Triple Da G.O.D!]

Something, Something, Sonia Belmont Retcon, Something, Something, ONORE IGA!!!

 

[Pyrrhus]

I think the thing I don't like about the reboot series is there's no undercurrent of weirdness. It's all very conventional even if it is well done. Where are my french maids using a vacuum cleaner made of skull and bones, gravekeepers who know martial arts and fire spells, flying skeletons cosplaying as angels, gigantic multi-skulled skulls that have tentacles coming out of their mouths, undead WW1 infantry squads, Salem witches, a floating mass of swords, spears and shields, jiang shi, Jersey devils (which exist despite America not even being founded maybe?) and huge animated armours who uses razor sharp yo-yos?

And who can forget Legion, that lovable fellah.

I agree with this. But really, LoS didn't work for me for a number of reasons. I can't decide if the greater crime was the frame rate, the reduction of the gameplay to a poor man's God of War, or the complete loss of funky, eclectic soundtracks in favor of that boring, repetitive "God, I wish I was Hans Zimmer" try-hard movie style orchestral soundtrack. So they're going to stop after LoS2? They promise?

 

[Augemitbutter]

Harmony of Despair and Hard Corps Uprising were Konami's way of testing the waters for that sort of thing, I think. I guess we all know how that turned out.

HC: U is a great game. i don't know how that could have turned out better.

can't comment on HoD, but it always looked like a low budget game.

 

[pa22word]

You know the reason why they essentially switched genres?

Because the Super Metroid derivatives Iga made were cheap to produce and made a quick profit even with low sales compared to something like Super Castelvania IV and Rondo of Blood that took years to make and were much more costly to develop.

I assume when they finally stopped being profitable they stopped making them. Which I think is for the best, as the game's were starting to become rather run of the mill affairs. The last one I played was PoR, and I left it feeling content in it being the last game in his series that I played. The same level design problems were there, the same rehashed assets from the the 16-bit era were there, and by and large the game felt like nothing more than a retreaded retread with a new gimmick of the week with the partner AI.

 

[demidar]

I agree with this. But really, LoS didn't work for me for a number of reasons. I can't decide if the greater crime was the frame rate, the reduction of the gameplay to a poor man's God of War, or the complete loss of funky, eclectic soundtracks in favor of that boring, repetitive "God, I wish I was Hans Zimmer" try-hard movie style orchestral soundtrack. So they're going to stop after LoS2? They promise?

Ah yes, the music is also a big part of the allure of the games. The soundtrack covers a lot of different genres, funky, electronic, metal(?), orchestral, tribal for lack of a better term. The variety goes a long way to fighting against the monotonous atmosphere. The music is simply not what one would expect.

Because the Super Metroid derivatives Iga made were cheap to produce and made a quick profit even with low sales compared to something like Super Castelvania IV and Rondo of Blood that took years to make and were much more costly to develop.

I assume when they finally stopped being profitable they stopped making them. Which I think is for the best, as the game's were starting to become rather run of the mill affairs. The last one I played was PoR, and I left it feeling content in it being the last game in his series that I played. The same level design problems were there, the same rehashed assets from the the 16-bit era were there, and by and large the game felt like nothing more than a retreaded retread with a new gimmick of the week with the partner AI.

That's odd, I would assume the original Castlevania formula would be easier to make since they don't need to be as long/big as a metroidvania, no need to make loot tables, secret rooms, familiars or other extraneous systems, stat/enemy balancing and level design is fairly straightforward since the game can ONLY move forward at a linear pace.

 

[Nocturnowl]

That's odd, I would assume the original Castlevania formula would be easier to make since they don't need to be as long/big as a metroidvania, no need to make loot tables, secret rooms, familiars or other extraneous systems, stat/enemy balancing and level design is fairly straightforward since the game can ONLY move forward at a linear pace.

On the other hand even though straightforward the stages themselves have to be very tightly designed, everything from platform positioning, enemy placement and even sub weapon drop positions, they arguably need to be more carefully handled than in a Metroidvania in which the many options you have as well as a levelling system can allow more freedom so to speak for better and for worse.
Since the tool set you have from stage 1 is the same throughout you have to get more creative with how you increase the difficulty without veering off into becoming cheap.
The platforming itself is going to need various gimmicks and variations throughout to keep it fresh as the game progresses, a metroidvania game can get away with more basic pathways and limited platforming in a way as exploration itself is the main draw, a linear game though always needs a lot more going on in each screen i'd say to prevent the action from slowing down.
This isn't to say that all the Metroidvania games are careless or lack thought with their stage design.

Though i'm probably just rambling nonsense, I imagine both styles present similar levels of challenge to create.

 

[pa22word]

That's odd, I would assume the original Castlevania formula would be easier to make since they don't need to be as long/big as a metroidvania, no need to make loot tables, secret rooms, familiars or other extraneous systems, stat/enemy balancing and level design is fairly straightforward since the game can ONLY move forward at a linear pace.

I don't think you really understand how basic, completely simplistic, and repetitive the level design and enemy layout is in the iga games compared to the linear action titles... The second stage in Rondo alone features enemy layouts vastly more complex than anything you'll see in the IGA games.

This isn't even getting into the fact that the number of assets reused got into the uncomfortable stage in SotN, and got downright laughable by Dawn of Sorrow.

 

[border]

So there was to SOTN sequel planned? It was just sort of pitched and immediately shot down?

 

[demidar]

I don't think you really understand how basic, completely simplistic, and repetitive the level design and enemy layout is in the iga games compared to the linear action titles... The second stage in Rondo alone features enemy layouts vastly more complex than anything you'll see in the IGA games.

This isn't even getting into the fact that the number of assets reused got into the uncomfortable stage in SotN, and got downright laughable by Dawn of Sorrow.

Oh yes, there is a lot of rehashed sprites since development was pared down.

Level design and enemy layout is a design problem. As long as the assets are created, they can be placed in a way conducive to giving the player an interesting challenge. Assets can be reused in differing configurations to further level design and enemy layout. Building more assets isn't needed most of the time. Considering that, old-style Castlevania probably would be pared down as well if it took the same amount of resources as a Metroidvania and then people will start hating it.

 

[BadWolf]

Sad stuff, Alucard is easily my fave Castlevania character.

 

[Pyrrhus]

They stopped making the traditional games because it was harder to get the level design right. I think that's true. But it seems like another major factor was because the audience they cultivated by ripping off Malice Mizer's look for Alucard and Dracula didn't want to play a balls hard game.

 

[Host Samurai]

I don't care if its a classic castlevania game or a metroidvania game, all I want is a HD 2D vania game on the PSN/XBLA

 

[@MUWANdo]

HC: U is a great game. i don't know how that could have turned out better.

can't comment on HoD, but it always looked like a low budget game.

I didn't like Uprising much--slow load times, inconsistent visuals, terrible, TERRIBLE sound effects... the list goes on. (probably, I haven't played it in a while so I'm forgetting the million little things that irked me about that game.)

Because the Super Metroid derivatives Iga made were cheap to produce and made a quick profit even with low sales compared to something like Super Castelvania IV and Rondo of Blood that took years to make and were much more costly to develop.

SCV4/Rondo didn't take that long to make--months, sure, but certainly not years. I don't doubt they cost more than the handheld IGA games to develop but that'd have more to do with them being new games on cutting-edge hardware than anything else.

On the other hand even though straightforward the stages themselves have to be very tightly designed, everything from platform positioning, enemy placement and even sub weapon drop positions, they arguably need to be more carefully handled than in a Metroidvania in which the many options you have as well as a levelling system can allow more freedom so to speak for better and for worse.
Since the tool set you have from stage 1 is the same throughout you have to get more creative with how you increase the difficulty without veering off into becoming cheap.
The platforming itself is going to need various gimmicks and variations throughout to keep it fresh as the game progresses, a metroidvania game can get away with more basic pathways and limited platforming in a way as exploration itself is the main draw, a linear game though always needs a lot more going on in each screen i'd say to prevent the action from slowing down.
This isn't to say that all the Metroidvania games are careless or lack thought with their stage design.

Though i'm probably just rambling nonsense, I imagine both styles present similar levels of challenge to create.

These differences are definitely all real but I don't think the choice to stick with the SOTN formula was dictated by budget or development time, necessarily. The team loved making them, reviewers loved them, the audience loved them (even if they slowly stopped buying them... lord knows how many just pirated them).

Contrast that with IGA's attempts to test the waters with more old-school games (CV Chronicles for PSX, Dracula X Chronicles for PSP)--worse sales, worse critical reception. It's easy to see why they pursued the SOTN style for so long.

OOE was a decent first step in bringing back a little old-school sensibility, I thought, and Harmony of Despair was a huge leap in the right direction and a good merger between IGA-style combat and old-school progression.