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[Flynn]

I think the point of being pissed off about the ending is that one of the key selling points of this picture is that it's been true to the vision of the book. That the filmmakers were dedicated to replicating the original story to an insane degree.

But this big, big change proves that they're only true to the book when it suits them. So they're using the same pretty colors you see on the pages.

Big thematic stuff. Not so much.

 

[karasu]

. People who've worked with him say he's a great director with a lot of passion (judging from behind the scene videos).

They say that in every behind the scenes video ever made.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Paul Thomas Anderson presents Maus.

Nah. Booster Gold.

"Michael Jon Carter was a football player in the future. When he returned to our time, he pretended to be dead and then created an alter ego: Supernova. This is not just one of those things. No, this cannot be that."

 

[wenis]

Watchmen had an impact on a lot more than just comics of its genre. Are you saying Watchmen will impact the filmmaking approaches of people like Paul Thomas Anderson and The Coen Brothers?

I'm not saying it will. We are playing the "what if" game because this movie isnt out, but the people that have seen it have only had positive things to say about it.

Of course do I think Zach Snyder can trump the work the Coen's and Anderson have done? Most likely not. He hasn't shown he has those kind of chops to pull something like that yet. What I wanted to bring up is that in the end it won't be us discussing whether or not this film is garbage because we are the small minority in it all. The mainstream press and audience will be the ones to really judge this film and what they say goes no matter how much we kick and scream.

thats how shit like the excorcist and jaws are considered the greatest horror films of all time.
or kevin smith is some kind of indie god still making good films.

 

[JayDubya]

better zach snydder interview. he's definitely a better public speaker than that last interview would lead you to believe.

99 Luftballons?

Inspired choice.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

I'm not saying it will. We are playing the "what if" game because this movie isnt out, but the people that have seen it have only had positive things to say about it.

Of course do I think Zach Snyder can trump the work the Coen's and Anderson have done? Most likely not. He hasn't shown he has those kind of chops to pull something like that yet. What I wanted to bring up is that in the end it won't be us discussing whether or not this film is garbage because we are the small minority in it all. The mainstream press and audience will be the ones to really judge this film and what they say goes no matter how much we kick and scream.

thats how shit like the excorcist and jaws are considered the greatest horror films of all time.
or kevin smith is some kind of indie god still making good films.

Well, I was just responding to a post about medium impact which turned out to be a larf anyways.

 

[JasoNsider]

From the trailer, it seems obvious the movie is going to be a better and more important work than the comic book. I have no doubt it will take the opportunity to address some of the comic's glaring flaws and bring it to a large mainstream audience.

Pretty sure this is just a bait. There is no possible way this could be real!

 

[Freshmaker]

Point being, you had one example, I had five.

It's not "crapping" on the source material if the project turns out good.

Really? Five great adaptions wipes away the 90% failure rate? V for Vendetta, Catwoman, Electra, Daredevil, The Two Towers, Return of the King, (people who claim these were improved can't read.) Batman Forever, Captain America, The Punisher (take your pick)... There's plenty more.

The numbers favor the crappatation of the source, not the improvement.

 

[fistfulofmetal]

The Two Towers, Return of the King,

Opinion invalidated.

 

[Freshmaker]

Opinion invalidated.

I qualified those. Changing stuff isn't so bad if the screenwriters retain the original's point. Jackson and crew consistently did not. If you think the new watered down LCD variations are improvements, you failed at reading the novels and your opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Flynn]

I'm not saying it will. We are playing the "what if" game because this movie isnt out, but the people that have seen it have only had positive things to say about it.

The farther we get from The Dark Knight the more I think this movie isn't going to be the second coming. It's not going to deliver the dunder-headed machismo that kept the frat boys and high schoolers buying tickets over and over again.

 

[Kikujiro]

Thinking like that leads to movies like Batman and Robin.

Don't take Cronenberg's statement so literally, he's only pointing the fact that movies and books are different.

Kubrick's Shining will be remembered for those:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t60oY0TbTU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVooUHN7j4&feature=related
Not because this or that character is the same as in the book.

 

[wenis]

Watchmen's 'Squid' Probem? Zack Synder Opens Up

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Watchmen's 'Squid' Probem? Zack Synder Opens Up

which for the unfamiliar involves a giant squid-like monster decimating New York City, designed to appear like an alien invasion, with the intended effect of uniting the World Community on the brink of nuclear war against a common enemy.

This summation of it gets to the core of why changing it bothers me so much. The whole point of it was that was a completely new arrival, something no one expected, and thus they were forced to stop all the shit they were doing. The film's reinterpretation of that completely undercuts its intent.

 

[bogg]

The new ending doesn't make any sense. Fuck you hollywood.

 

[border]

So what happens in the new ending? Something with Dr. Manhattan?

The new ending doesn't make any sense. Fuck you hollywood.

The comic book's ending didn't make much sense either. Shit, most of Ozymandia's plans are shaky and nonsensical.

 

[8bit]

As to reports from the test screening

Spoiler

that the squid has been replaced by multiple nuclear explosions?

"I won't say exactly," hinted Synder, "but... Dr. Manhattan has a certain energy signature, it's clearly his thing...so you know."

I can't begin to imagine where you start to deviate from the book to paint this as the major threat,

Spoiler

having the smartest man in the world tricking/enraging a god just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[JayDubya]

As to reports from the test screening

Spoiler

that the squid has been replaced by multiple nuclear explosions?

"I won't say exactly," hinted Synder, "but... Dr. Manhattan has a certain energy signature, it's clearly his thing...so you know."

I can't begin to imagine where you start to deviate from the book to paint this as the major threat,

Spoiler

having the smartest man in the world tricking/enraging a god just doesn't sit well with me.

Spoiler

Veidt wouldn't have to trick Osterman into blowing anything up in order to make it look like Osterman blew up shit.

It could work. /shrug

 

[8bit]

Spoiler

Veidt wouldn't have to trick Osterman into blowing anything up in order to make it look like Osterman blew up shit.

It could work. /shrug

That's a good point, I didn't think of it that way.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Spoiler

Veidt wouldn't have to trick Osterman into blowing anything up in order to make it look like Osterman blew up shit.

It could work. /shrug

Which makes even less sense. It escalates global conflict instead of alleviating it.

Spoiler

If it was or looks like it was Dr. Manhattan, who used to be a soldier for the US IIRC, it's going to set off a Superhero Arms Race to replace the Nuclear one.

Moore's ending works because it flattens any possibility for any future conflict. Period.

 

[JayDubya]

That's a good point, I didn't think of it that way.

It also puts a whole new angle on Osterman leaving.

 

[Flynn]

This summation of it gets to the core of why changing it bothers me so much. The whole point of it was that was a completely new arrival, something no one expected, and thus they were forced to stop all the shit they were doing. The film's reinterpretation of that completely undercuts its intent.

Yeah, the idea of an alien utsider unifying warring nations is key to the book. If Ozy slaps the blame on Dr. Manhattan then Russia still has a reason to keep the cold war going -- Dr. Manhattan is an American and works for the American government.

 

[JayDubya]

Yeah, the idea of an alien utsider unifying warring nations is key to the book. If Ozy slaps the blame on Dr. Manhattan then Russia still has a reason to keep the cold war going -- Dr. Manhattan is an American and works for the American government.

But obviously doesn't anymore if he makes NYC go all kablookey.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Yeah, the idea of an alien utsider unifying warring nations is key to the book. If Ozy slaps the blame on Dr. Manhattan then Russia still has a reason to keep the cold war going -- Dr. Manhattan is an American and works for the American government.

This was my point exactly. Even if he doesn't anymore, there's no possible way Russia wouldn't be suspicious but, WAY more importantly, Dr. Manhattan is potentially replicatable. An alien invasion is a singular threat that unifies every human on the planet. A superhero going rogue is just going to lead to a new arms race to replace the old one.

 

[border]

Moore's ending works because it flattens any possibility for any future conflict. Period.

Until no more aliens show up, at which point nations go back to their normal squabbling. Or until Rorschach's published journal unveils the truth. It seemed to me like Moore's ending left plenty of room for future conflict.

If indeed the film features Manhattan being framed, that mostly leaves me wondering what it is that turned The Comedian (in that scenario).

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Until no more aliens show up, at which point nations go back to their normal squabbling. Or until Rorschach's published journal unveils the truth. It seemed to me like Moore's ending left plenty of room for future conflict.

If indeed the film features Manhattan being framed, that mostly leaves me wondering what it is that turned The Comedian (in that scenario).

The thing is, I think they could have kept the same ending's intent and just did it in a more visually dynamic way, if that's what their problem was. There are plenty of ways to replicate an alien invasion if you can't be bothered with lingering on still shots of day glo alien for seven minutes.

 

[AlexMogil]

But obviously doesn't anymore if he makes NYC go all kablookey.

Why would that stop Russian aggression? If anything they'd keep pushing, wouldn't they?

 

[border]

Why would that stop Russian aggression? If anything they'd keep pushing, wouldn't they?

If all nations are nuked, then everyone has a common enemy.

 

[8bit]

Until no more aliens show up, at which point nations go back to their normal squabbling. Or until Rorschach's published journal unveils the truth. It seemed to me like Moore's ending left plenty of room for future conflict.

If indeed the film features Manhattan being framed, that mostly leaves me wondering what it is that turned The Comedian (in that scenario).

The

Spoiler

Rameses II

secret files, maybe. It's a shortcut that drops the

Spoiler

island scenario

, but he is the wrong person to discover that.

 

[JayDubya]

Why would that stop Russian aggression? If anything they'd keep pushing, wouldn't they?

Clearly, the scope of destruction would need to be wider than just NYC, then.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

If all nations are nuked, then everyone has a common enemy.

I still think the potential replicatability, along with suspicion of an ex-US operative ("How do we know he really left?" "He really did! Trust us! You heard him!") means it will immediately escalate hostility. The nations will be working separately to protect themselves as opposed to working collectively to help the planet.

 

[fallengorn]

Yeah, the idea of an alien utsider unifying warring nations is key to the book. If Ozy slaps the blame on Dr. Manhattan then Russia still has a reason to keep the cold war going -- Dr. Manhattan is an American and works for the American government.

If I'm not mistaken

Spoiler

Multiple cities go up in flames around the world, that point to Dr. Manhattan.

The "loophole" in this logic is Ozymandias would have to put some effort into creating the impression that Dr. Manhattan is still around (after he tries to kill him) in order to continue global unity. Otherwise things will just spillover again.

 

[JayDubya]

If I'm not mistaken

Spoiler

Multiple cities go up in flames around the world, that point to Dr. Manhattan.

The "loophole" in this logic is Ozymandias would have to put some effort into creating the impression that Dr. Manhattan is still around (after he tries to kill him) in order to continue global unity. Otherwise things will just spillover again.

True, but he'd need to do the same thing with the "aliens from another dimension," too.

And as someone else said, Veidt's plan is already doomed thanks to a fat redheaded assistant at a right-wing newspaper.

 

[Prime crotch]

If I'm not mistaken

Spoiler

Multiple cities go up in flames around the world, that point to Dr. Manhattan.

The "loophole" in this logic is Ozymandias would have to put some effort into creating the impression that Dr. Manhattan is still around (after he tries to kill him) in order to continue global unity. Otherwise things will just spillover again.

But

Spoiler

Dr. Manhattan would still be perceived as a US weapon, that "missfired" but still a sort of US made weapon.

 

[border]

The nations will be working separately to protect themselves as opposed to working collectively to help the planet.

The "loophole" in this logic is Ozymandias would have to put some effort into creating the impression that Dr. Manhattan is still around (after he tries to kill him) in order to continue global unity. Otherwise things will just spillover again.

You could have said the same things about the squid scenario, really.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

You could have said pretty much the same things about the squid scenario, really.

You keep skipping over the core of my argument though. An alien is an alien entity. Dr. Manhattan is a guy who got stuck in a proton collider or whatever. The soviets could just work to make their own.

 

[fallengorn]

True, but he'd need to do the same thing with the "aliens from another dimension," too.

In the book the psychic shockwave that emanated from the squid included images and thoughts from the alien species that were supposed to linger the psyche of humans. Or something like that.

 

[fallengorn]

But

Spoiler

Dr. Manhattan would still be perceived as a US weapon, that "missfired" but still a sort of US made weapon.

I'm not doubting that. Using a squid is definitely a more clearcut way to get nations to unify against an external threat. Using Dr. Manhattan, an already known political/strategic variable muddles the situation.

 

[8bit]

In the book the psychic shockwave that emanated from the squid included images and thoughts from the alien species that were supposed to linger the psyche of humans. Or something like that.

The artists and writers were on the island to seed the psychic bomb with human created horrific images that would kill many of them.

 

[border]

The soviets could just work to make their own.

Why would they make their own atomic superman, after witnessing one backfire to the detriment of its creators (and most likely to other countries)?

At this point in the story, Manhattan has been around for decades has he not? If something were as easily replicated as that you'd think it would have happened already.

 

[Blader]

This was my point exactly. Even if he doesn't anymore, there's no possible way Russia wouldn't be suspicious but, WAY more importantly, Dr. Manhattan is potentially replicatable. An alien invasion is a singular threat that unifies every human on the planet. A superhero going rogue is just going to lead to a new arms race to replace the old one.

Like I wrote earlier, in the book,

Spoiler

the squid just attacks New York. There's no reason for the whole world to feel threatened if it was just one city that was attacked, especially if you're in Russia, and your greatest enemy was just dealt a huge blow.

But if every major city in the world is being attacked, instead of just one city in one country, then it creates more of an impression of a global threat.

 

[Count Dookkake]

Really? Five great adaptions wipes away the 90% failure rate? V for Vendetta, Catwoman, Electra, Daredevil, The Two Towers, Return of the King, (people who claim these were improved can't read.) Batman Forever, Captain America, The Punisher (take your pick)... There's plenty more.

The numbers favor the crappatation of the source, not the improvement.

90% of everything is shit. If that's your standard, then stop worrying about Watchmen.

90% of original material is shit.

90% of remakes are shit.

90% of sequels are shit.

This is not a special case.

 

[my name is ed]

I think framing Dr. Manhattan and blowing up famous cities could work. I dont think the USSR would think Dr. Manhattan was still with the US after killing millions of Americans.

 

[AlexMogil]

Clearly, the scope of destruction would need to be wider than just NYC, then.

Ah.

Do we know this to be true in the movie? Has it been mention (and have I just not been paying attention)?

 

[border]

The artists and writers were on the island to seed the psychic bomb with human created horrific images that would kill many of them.

The more I hear people recap the Squidpocalypse, the more I like the movie-ending. When you think about it, the squid stuff just throws a bunch of random crazy crap in at the end...into a world that is mostly pretty well grounded. Up until that point there's no mention of psychic stuff in this universe.

I like that the movie keeps Manhattan as the film's only real fantastic element. I worry if they are going to keep the anticlimactic "I just did it 35 minutes ago" bit though.

 

[Blader]

Maybe a mod should put a spoiler warning in the thread title? If I hadn't already read the comic and found out about the new ending, I'd be pretty pissed off.

 

[fallengorn]

Ah.

Do we know this to be true in the movie? Has it been mention (and have I just not been paying attention)?

Yeah, there have been reports from an early screening.

The more I hear people recap the Squidpocalypse, the more I like the movie-ending. When you think about it, the squid stuff just throws a bunch of random crazy crap in at the end...into a world that is mostly pretty well grounded. Up until that point there's no mention of psychic stuff in this universe.

The whole reason for the squid was because it is random and crazy. That's what makes it work.

 

[border]

Point being that the squid doesn't work - it's a goofy deus ex machina that introduces random bizarre twists that the reader had no hope of deducing. All of a sudden people in this world can synthesize life forms, make psychic bombs, teleport crap. None of that was set up at all.

 

[Flynn]

Point being that the squid doesn't work - it's a goofy deus ex machina that introduces random bizarre twists that the reader had no hope of deducing. All of a sudden people in this world can synthesize life forms, make psychic bombs, teleport crap. None of that was set up at all.

What was Ozy doing on that island the whole time? Don't forget that this is a world, where thanks to Dr. Manhattan, cold fusion was realized.

 

[DKehoe]

Point being that the squid doesn't work - it's a goofy deus ex machina that introduces random bizarre twists that the reader had no hope of deducing. All of a sudden people in this world can synthesize life forms, make psychic bombs, teleport crap. None of that was set up at all.

You aren't meant to see it coming. That's kinda the point.