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[Halo is Back]

Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."

So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.

They're even pretty far from the truth of their own argument. Like I said, there's been a lot made over Bonnie Ross's statements and that blog post about 343i (it's not clear what OP LeviJ1988 is referring to when starting the thread, "People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever," but this given the timing and also how quickly replies jumped to the Halo Infinite debacle, it seems like that's top of mind for clicks onto this thread...), but the image of a company run by somebody who says "diversity attracts diversity" and the reality of the staff make-up doesn't line up.

International Women's Day pic

General Staff pic

I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.

Diverse or not, 343 sucks balls

 

[Raonak]

Lol, do you actually believe employers are bypassing looking at skills/qualifications??? No, because turns out, diverse people can be talented too!


Talent + Diversity = win

 

[ihavezippers]

Seems like all the time we are having a whole slew of problems.
People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever.

Talent > Diversity

Diversity = a whole diversity of problems bound to happen if they aren't competent in their jobs.
When you compare games of the old when it was made out of passion and creativity, things worked.
Now people are exploiting games to push their political agenda and microtransactions.
People are being hired because they satisfy a checklist system and not because they adequately equipped for the job leading to mismanagement, bad reception, delays and overall quality.
Games are being outsourced cheaply and not making the quality as excellent.
SJW are modelling woman ugly and unattractive on purpose so they can ruin the image of the game eg) Ryder in Mass Effect Andromeda and Black Widow for Avengers until the backlash came from fan feedback.

/rant

I think the bigger issue is not lack of talent, but the hugely profitable industry that game publication is and unquenchable drive to maximize profits. When I was a kid, sure Nintendo and Sega console game publishers no doubt were profitable businesses, but the PC game industry was still relatively a niche market—-the people that made those games were not doing it to get rich. the pc games i grew up with (late 80s-mid 90s) were incredibly unique, there werent so many copycat games or even well-defined genres. it was the wild west

 

[JerryinSoCal]

Games are made all over the world, there is diversity in the industry. I get so fed up of people showing a team photo from a studio in America or a European country and pointing out how many people are white, what do they think a studio team photo from a Japanese dev looks like? lol We don't need checklists, the gaming industry needs talented and creative people and there are plenty of people that fit that description in ever ethnic group and gender, it's up to the people who want to work in the industry to go after those jobs.

 

[Virex]

So which minority are you targeting exactly because it sounds like it's all their fault which sounds like you're a part of the problem...

 

[MrJTeera]

It’s not just about the hiring, the director or the people at the helm needs to see past these diversity, and see a common ground for them to motivate forward. Find out their strengths and weaknesses determined by the vision you’re going for with your game.

Utilize your diversity. Don’t make it a bullet point in your PR keynote.

Maybe that’s why games nowadays are muddled mess, trying to pander to every mindset, and end up pleasing none.

 

[Reallink]

White, black, brown, man, woman, or xir, blame is equal opportunity, 343 is full of trash of every kind. Gut. It. Out. Phil.

 

[Shmunter]

Talent over superficial traits always.

One question remains however, a super progressive outfit like Naughty Dog is without peers. How do they do it, shallow virtue signalling?

I can’t imagine them taking anyone on off subpar talent. It is possible they have the advantage off a large pool to choose from with most wanting ND on their resume.

Second rate studios however get stuck with leftover diversity hires.

 

[shaddam]

Ugh op be careful sarkasian will cancel your entire bloodline

 

[Twinguistics]

Wow, think I better stay clear of this disgusting topic. You clearly don't understand diversity hiring at all.

It is about hiring the best person and not just the best white male person. If the best candidate is white male, hire them, if it's a black woman, hire them, and so on.

Do you honestly believe that men are inherently better at all aspects of making videogames?

Topics like this make me wish I wasn't banned at Ree. I do prefer it here but, wow, bigoted ideas do run rampant. It's disgusting to think about.

Think I shouldn't post in this one any more.

 

[Shmunter]

Wow, think I better stay clear of this disgusting topic. You clearly don't understand diversity hiring at all.

It is about hiring the best person and not just the best white male person. If the best candidate is white male, hire them, if it's a black woman, hire them, and so on.

Do you honestly believe that men are inherently better at all aspects of making videogames?

Topics like this make me wish I wasn't banned at Ree. I do prefer it here but, wow, bigoted ideas do run rampant. It's disgusting to think about.

Think I shouldn't post in this one any more.

Sorry, you are arguing against yourself. Nobody cares what sex or skin colour you are in a meritocracy.

Diversity hires implies ratio for hire based on sex and race as a goal. Common now.

This topic, nor Neogaf as a whole ever supports sexism, or racism. Indeed the belief is that everyone is to be treated equally irrespective of their immutable characteristics. This is the opposite to what far left proponents suggest where superficial identity determines everything.

 

[Soodanim]

The premise of this thread is that measurably worse people are being hired throughout the industry because of an controllable characteristic, leaving waves of company saviours in the form of white men without a dev to call home.

That seems flawed to me. A dev who’s out to create good games that sell well isn’t doing that.

What if they are? They’re the architect of their own demise, and that would be a shame. That’s obvious, and the righteous defenders of that truth aren't onto some magically insightful discovery. Quotas are a problem, but what’s important to remember is that someone felt the need to do something about it because in companies people were getting turned away for not being a white male. I guarantee it happened in the games industry just like every other, and if people weren’t like that in the first place it wouldn’t be an issue. Blame them.

 

[Nico_D]

It is not games industry only where factors other than talent are used when choosing employees and I think that can be a problem sometimes. I understand that the more talented some one is, the more difficult he/she can be to work with when he/she is working with less talented people. And working with less talented people can be tough for those who have more of it.

Honestly - and I have been thinking this for some time - I think one of the problems is that we have schools for everything now. You can become an artist of any kind by going to a spesific school regardless of whether you have any/much talent or not. Naturally there are some elite schools which won't let you in unless you have that thing but I'm talking more about non-elite schools which keep pushing out artists who get the artistic jobs thanks to their connections from the school. Because knowing people means quite a bit more than actual talent.

The lack of talent shows in the products today, be it games or movies.

 

[Shmunter]

The premise of this thread is that measurably worse people are being hired throughout the industry because, leaving waves of company saviours in the form of white men without a dev to call home.

That seems flawed to me. A dev who’s out to create good games that sell well isn’t doing that.

What if they are? They’re the architect of their own demise, and that would be a shame. That’s obvious, and the righteous defenders of that truth aren't onto some magically insightful discovery. Quotas are a problem, but what’s important to remember is that someone felt the need to do something about it because in companies people were getting turned away for not being a white male. I guarantee it happened in the games industry just like every other, and if people weren’t like that in the first place it wouldn’t be an issue. Blame them.

Yet laws preventing such discrimination have recently been abolished in California. Sounds crazy doesn’t it, but it is precisely to allow discrimination against the best candidate if they don’t suit the quota. This is what it’s coming to, and it won’t end well.

Forcing equality of outcome over providing opportunity at the grassroots to level the playing field will never work.

 

[UnNamed]

What people don't understand is diversity should means we give opportunities to diverse people and not we include you because you are diverse.

 

[llien]

Diversity

Talent

I'm scared to ask, but I need to clarify it before I can go to sleep: where does the "diverse" team in the first picture work?

 

[Twinguistics]

Sorry, you are arguing against yourself. Nobody cares what sex or skin colour you are in a meritocracy.

Diversity hires implies ratio for hire based on sex and race as a goal. Common now.

This topic, nor Neogaf as a whole ever supports sexism, or racism. Indeed the belief is that everyone is to be treated equally irrespective of their immutable characteristics. This is the opposite to what far left proponents suggest where superficial identity determines everything.

So it's been a meritocrascy until recently then? As in you believe that white straight males are the most talented and so that's why they hold most of the well paying jobs. Hiring has been done on merit, right? Ergo without diversity hiring you believe that white people are just better at these jobs and that's why they have the majority of them.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Now, let's talk about unconscious bias that has permiated hiring culture and the fact (yes scientific fact) that subconsciously people will look to hire people that they think "fit the mould' even if they aren't the best candidate. They might over look the women to hire the poorly interviewing man because they think 'he must have had an off day and will be safer in the long run'.

We both seem to want the same thing - hires based on merit. I don't think the current culture achieves that. My understanding of diversity hiring is that it is trying to address the inherent bias that has led to workplaces filled with men that aren't necessarily the best at their job.

And lastly, there's no evidence that any of this is contributing to poor videogames. That's possibly the most ridiculous aspect of the whole thread. We have no idea what the make up of the team is.

 

[Chun Swae]

SJW are modelling woman ugly and unattractive on purpose so they can ruin the image of the game eg) Ryder in Mass Effect Andromeda and Black Widow for Avengers until the backlash came from fan feedback.

/rant

Talent and diversity aren't mutually exclusive so I'm going to just highlight this part of your post. A lot of gamers get irrationally upset when they can't sexualize the women in their games. You never see outrage about the mountains of average looking male characters that have been present in video games all the time. Not every human being in real life looks like a super model, male or female. If you want to watch women who are to your personal liking go to a cam site and not video games.

 

[-Arcadia-]

I'm scared to ask, but I need to clarify it before I can go to sleep: where does the "diverse" team in the first picture work?

Looks like the brilliant creative team behind Craig, reinforcing the point even more.

 

[Bodomism]

I'm scared to ask, but I need to clarify it before I can go to sleep: where does the "diverse" team in the first picture work?

343i - Current Halo game developer despite their hate for the franchise.

 

[Kev Kev]

Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."

So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.

They're even pretty far from the truth of their own argument. Like I said, there's been a lot made over Bonnie Ross's statements and that blog post about 343i (it's not clear what OP LeviJ1988 is referring to when starting the thread, "People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever," but this given the timing and also how quickly replies jumped to the Halo Infinite debacle, it seems like that's top of mind for clicks onto this thread...), but the image of a company run by somebody who says "diversity attracts diversity" and the reality of the staff make-up doesn't line up.

International Women's Day pic

General Staff pic

I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.

 

[Shmunter]

So it's been a meritocrascy until recently then? As in you believe that white straight males are the most talented and so that's why they hold most of the well paying jobs. Hiring has been done on merit, right? Ergo without diversity hiring you believe that white people are just better at these jobs and that's why they have the majority of them.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Now, let's talk about unconscious bias that has permiated hiring culture and the fact (yes scientific fact) that subconsciously people will look to hire people that they think "fit the mould' even if they aren't the best candidate. They might over look the women to hire the poorly interviewing man because they think 'he must have had an off day and will be safer in the long run'.

We both seem to want the same thing - hires based on merit. I don't think the current culture achieves that. My understanding of diversity hiring is that it is trying to address the inherent bias that has led to workplaces filled with men that aren't necessarily the best at their job.

And lastly, there's no evidence that any of this is contributing to poor videogames. That's possibly the most ridiculous aspect of the whole thread. We have no idea what the make up of the team is.

The only bias here is you constantly raising Straight White Men

I’m calling unconscious bias, micro aggression and all that stuff a scam. We’re not robots and we will always have bias, brunettes, thick chicks, red cars. Whatever.

The issue is so insignificant in the workforce that it’s almost comedic making it an issue. It’s a tool for ideological interests because it has no end and will not be solved, the gift that keeps on giving.

You will agree people that hire the good looking secretary over the competent secretary are just as bad as hiring an incompetent white man over a competent black man. People that do that themselves are incompetent. This stuff has a way of sorting itself out by the merit of competition based on outcome.

The above is in turn equivalent to hiring based on quota and affirmative action. All result in a poor outcome in the end and are simply two sides of the same coin.

 

[Kev Kev]

white straight males are the most talented

you are the only one saying this

inherent bias

unconscious bias

subconsciously

fuck off with your make believe fairy tale land. none of this stuff is substantiated or true, theyre just buzz words you and your woke warriors throw around to posture in a sad attempt to make yourself look more progressive than everyone else

We both seem to want the same thing - hires based on merit.

you so obviously do not want this. youre the only one causing seperation here

They might over look the women to hire the poorly interviewing man because they think 'he must have had an off day and will be safer in the long run'.

no respectable business man is going to do that

lol ok ok or business woman

 

[KormaChameleon]

You think it would be the case but it isn't in 2020. Forced diversity is cancer in this society.

 

[Alx]

Lol, do you actually believe employers are bypassing looking at skills/qualifications??? No, because turns out, diverse people can be talented too!


Talent + Diversity = win

Yeah, while I'm all for using only skill/talent as a recruiting criteria, blaming all failures on forced diversity is just silly. At worst it would lead to a sub-optimal scenario, where you would dismiss someone who's better for the job for someone who's not as good but checks a "diversiy" rule. But in the end you're still supposed to select skillful people, otherwise you'd be claiming that there's no skill to be found in the "diversity" categories.

 

[llien]

So it's been a meritocrascy until recently then?

I'm not sure what you are asking.
Is it "didn't we care only about people of of male gender who were heterosexual"?
No, I don't think we ever did.

Now, let's talk about unconscious bias that has permiated hiring culture and the fact (yes scientific fact) that subconsciously people will look to hire people that they think "fit the mould' even if they aren't the best candidate.

Scientifically, only women (and even them, mostly when hiring someone they'd work in a group with... which, on the other hand, is the most typical scenario anyway) give own gender advantage when hiring, but regardless, there have been ultimate tests: BLIND hirings.
And they didn't end in the way they would, had the said discrimination been real.
E.g. in Australia only white men got (slightly) better chances of being hired, when anonymized.
In orhcestras... you can't make this up:

To Make Orchestras More Diverse, End Blind Auditions (Published 2020)

If ensembles are to reflect the communities they serve, the audition process should take into account race, gender and other factors.

www.nytimes.com

My understanding of diversity hiring is that it is trying to address the inherent bias that has led to workplaces filled with men that aren't necessarily the best at their job.

You preach "this dude looks to be better than that other candidate of different gender and/or skin color/or sexual preferences.... but someone told me I'm biased, so to make up for it, let me pick up that other candidate".
Which is exactly what discrimination is.

As for games go, it isn't the first time in recent years, remember that other diverse (but, of course, totally merit based, sure thing):

A Compilation of Hilarious Animations in Mass Effect Andromeda

Disclaimer One: This thread and these examples do not mean that the animators in Bioware did a bad job or aren't talented. Animation is super difficult, especially in a game like this with hundreds if not thousands of cutscenes and dialogue sequences. It's not the fault of animators at Bioware...

www.neogaf.com

 

[Pippelipeikko]

Well, I did consider it. You even quoted me, "If somebody who has managed a team at 343 or a place like it and says differently about the way things went for them, then their experiences would be interesting to hear..."

So, it would help if you shared your experience in staffing that has led you to guarantee set-asides. Because right now, I'm actually the only person on this thread who's talked about first-hand experience hiring in the current job market, so my experience may be limited, but it's the only real "experience" here so far. I'm not really interested in representing myself as the "expert" on the topic, but so many posts here are just hearsay and frankly bullshit false equivalencies about Halo Infinite being a fuck-up because Bonnie Ross went on TV talking about valuing diversity (there's about 55 women in that International Women's Day picture that's been referred to here; the company has something like 500 employees,) and I figured some actual insight from somebody who has hired people and also happens to know some 343i staffers might be worth including in the conversation. I'm not saying I'm right or that unfair shit doesn't happen, but I've heard all the attacks and jokes on diversity consideration in the work place, and in my experience, they're all pretty far from the truth.

They're even pretty far from the truth of their own argument. Like I said, there's been a lot made over Bonnie Ross's statements and that blog post about 343i (it's not clear what OP LeviJ1988 is referring to when starting the thread, "People should be hired for their talent and not because they are the minority gender or whatever," but this given the timing and also how quickly replies jumped to the Halo Infinite debacle, it seems like that's top of mind for clicks onto this thread...), but the image of a company run by somebody who says "diversity attracts diversity" and the reality of the staff make-up doesn't line up.

International Women's Day pic

General Staff pic

I'm not sure how you can look at the second picture and still think of it as a company flying a No White Dudes Allowed flag. It's a "diverse" office, but it's also a whole lot of white guys sharing the blame with all the women being called out on this thread as being not-talent.

I wonder where they got the hot Star Trek alien from (centre right)

 

[B-universe]

So which minority are you targeting exactly because it sounds like it's all their fault which sounds like you're a part of the problem...

The OP says merit should be the criterion for hiring people.
You read that as him targeting a minority.

There's a problem alright, and it lies in your inability or unwillingness to understand and/or accurately represent the position of the people you disagree with.

I don't get why people are so butt hurt over stuff like Halo and somehow because the game has women working on the team all the sudden that's why the game shaped up the way it has. There are plenty of very talented female artists/programmers/composers working in the industry and tbh I've been seeing this over and over lately and it's super disingenuous to anyone working in the industry which is already tough enough to get into. I've worked on a few projects and have worked with plenty of talented female artists and they're just as talented and deserving to be working in the industry as anyone else and tbh the image above is pretty shameful to post.

Why is it shameful to post an image that has, supposedly, been made available to the public for explicit PR purposes?

Why?

The OP doesn't mention Halo. Yes, it's incumbent upon the OP to show Diversity hires have led to mismanagement, lower standards and poor art direction. He has yet to do so. Theoretically speaking, though, he has a point in the sense that Diversity, as a value, contradicts Meritocracy, as a value. One has got to give, for the other to reign.

If the most competent candidates are all women, hire them. Don't hesitate. If they're men, do so. If they're black, likewise. If they're pansexual, welcome them to the team. Always hire the best possible people, irrespective of traits that are irrelevant to the job description.

To misconstrue this position as an attack on women in the industry, to view it as an attempt to alienate and segregate this or that minority is not just propagating a lie, but also maintaining the truly bigoted stance. It essentially betrays the feeling that women can't compete on a level playing filed, that minorities can't make it if merit alone is the discerning factor, and, as such, artificial top-down countermeasures have to be setup.

How tremendously ironic.
Evidently, the stock comeback will involve Unconscious Bias.

I know about couple people who work or recently worked for 343i, and they're all men, and it's their game that's fucked, so...

Just imagine. Imagine me coming in on here and claiming I know people who work at Bioware and they're all women and it's their games that "fucked up".
I can predict what you would have posted. But since your sitting duck is men in general, you felt you could escape unscathed.

Either way, that's not really how "diversity hiring" works, that you just set a quota and throw away all the resumes of white dudes if you're over the white line and just pick the one that extends your rainbow the farthest. (That said, quotas did exist in the "Affirmative Action" period and there are still some industries that check its numbers when they're heavily lopsided.) If you've ever been in a hiring cycle at a big company, you'd see it's more about extending your invite pool and looking at extenuating values that could be brought to the team in all qualified applicants verifying in conversation with HR that you've done due diligence with the range of applicants.

In a 2017 article about Australia's gaming industry Brooke Megs, said:

I believe that companies, event organisers and education institutions should adopt quotas to ensure women are more evenly represented among their staff, speakers, teachers and students. (source)

Another article from 2018 dedicated to the US tech industry opens with the following paragraph:

Setting clear diversity targets has become a common practice in tech, whether it’s to ensure that women of color make up half of the speakers at a conference, or that 25% of a company's interviews be with black and latinx candidates.

When it comes to hiring, many companies are implementing diversity quotas. (source)

The article goes on to pose the question of whether quotas should be implemented or not. Here's what four experts in the Diversity Industry repleid:

Quotas and targets can be a part of an effective strategy, but will have limited effect if done in isolation

I later learned about affirmative action plans for federal contractors and realized that quotas in some instances are actually required

Agree [with the notion of quotas]. If you don't have some type of goals in place, whether it's at the top of the funnel, bottom, or both, you will default to what is easiest and/or in greatest supply.

I agree that companies need to make a real effort and be held accountable to goals and metrics that you’re reporting on

(source)

Yes, clearly, Diversity quotas are a figment of GAF's imagination.

i don't get the point of these threads the other side is never going to see it the same way and it just divulges into shit throwing contest

I agree. None of these posts will likely change anything. Then again, that would apply to the entire forum, wouldn't it?

 

[llien]

But in the end you're still supposed to select skillful people, otherwise you'd be claiming that there's no skill to be found in the "diversity" categories.

You are missing the point.
The narrative goes "there are many qualified people, they are just not being hired".
Reality is: there are very small numbers of them and, note that "them" is not really minorities, you can find plenty of Asians (24% of google employees are, I was told, they are only 6% of the population).

So HR is facing "you are not hiring more women/etc, because you are racist/sexist!" combined with "girls do not feel like sitting next to a computer and messing with code is even remotely reasonable activity".

So to artificially fill the quotas, you lower the bar.

Google, not very long ago, just had to officially say "we won't be trying to hire more than available at job market" to address that.

 

[Coolwhhip]

I disagree. When I was playing the first Mario many years ago as a kid I already told my mum that I hoped it was created by a diverse team of developers.

 

[joe_zazen]

The only bias here is you constantly raising Straight White Men

I’m calling unconscious bias, micro aggression and all that stuff a scam. We’re not robots and we will always have bias, brunettes, thick chicks, red cars. Whatever.

The issue is so insignificant in the workforce that it’s almost comedic making it an issue. It’s a tool for ideological interests because it has no end and will not be solved, the gift that keeps on giving.

You will agree people that hire the good looking secretary over the competent secretary are just as bad as hiring an incompetent white man over a competent black man. People that do that themselves are incompetent. This stuff has a way of sorting itself out by the merit of competition based on outcome.

The above is in turn equivalent to hiring based on quota and affirmative action. All result in a poor outcome in the end and are simply two sides of the same coin.

you sir, need to be re-educated and write letters of repentance for your internalized white supremacy and/or model immigrant brown privilege and/or sexist misogyny and give them to HR so they can put them on file.

 

[B-universe]

Wow, think I better stay clear of this disgusting topic.

So your opening sentence is directly contradicted by the fact you're posting here?
Great start.

You clearly don't understand diversity hiring at all.

Yes, where would the world be without your enlightened guidance?

It's is about hiring the best person and not just the best white male person. If the best candidate is white male, hire them, if it's a black woman, hire them, and so on.

No, that's the stance the OP and I are advocating, among other people. That's not Diversity at work. Diversity, as a value, directly contradicts Meritocracy, as a value.

If, for example, you hired 100 canadines, first choices, and they all happened to be Asian males, under Diversity you would argue that Unconscious Bias had played a crucial role and the situation would need to be rectified in order to conform to the aprioristic premise that at all points in time relevant talent is uniformly distrusted among all demographics.

Do you honestly believe that men are inherently better at all aspects of making videogames?

Quote the person who said that.

Topics like this make me wish I wasn't banned at Ree. I do prefer it here but, wow, bigoted ideas do run rampant. It's disgusting to think about.

If you want your irrational ideas to go unchallenged - Oh, the shock, the horror! - buy yourself VPN and create a new account there.

Clearly, you've been there long enough for strange ideas to grow on you. You seem to think that by simply accusing your opponent of being a bigot you're somehow magically and instantly winning the debate.

You haven't debated in a long while, have you?

Think I shouldn't post in this one any more.

Come back when you have something of value to contribute.
Get this through your head: Simply accusing others of being bigots is not going to cut it. The standards here are typically higher. I could play that trick on you just as easily and claim you're an Antifa member and therefore you're wrong by default and thus proclaim victory.

Learn to make a point.

 

[Tschumi]

24% of developers are women according to this. That link might be dogshit but it's a number.

Games were still shit when they number was far lower.

Considering how many of that 24% are probably in decision making decisions (I'm gonna guess not many) i don't think we can blame them for ruining games.

I disagree entirely with blind generalisations, especially ones based on gender. I'm no feminazi - i open doors for women every chance i get - but I'm offended by dumbass generalisations.

 

[Damigos]

Diversity used to mean we need less shooting and more art in games.
Diversity now means all women must be ugly and there has to be a representative from all people in every game.

 

[martino]

False dilemma : the thread.
you can have both or none of it and everything in between
and when you think a studio is bad because of it because of some ideology and no real detailed information of how those bad studios work/take decisions you're just doing confirmation bias.

 

[M1chl]

Some educational video, how it works.

 

[FunkMiller]

The stupidity of this entire topic is that it completely undermines and hides the real problem:

People of diverse backgrounds do not receive the quality of education and training that straight, white people do. If they did, diversity hiring wouldn't be a thing, because everyone would be on an equal playing field.

No fucking point in making a point to hire people based on the colour of their skin, gender, or ethnicity, if the talent pool is smaller, thanks to inherent racism and bigotry in the state education and welfare system.

Some dickhead video games company hiring people based on their diversity isn't go to solve the problem, no matter what the SJW crowd believe. It's just a far easier thing to do than actually get down into the mud and shit, and tackle the problems at a more basic, fundamental level in our society.

This is why I hate the way the far left wing operate - they virtue signal, wave flags, and create hashtags - while sitting comfortably in their white privilege, doing absolutely fuck all to help solve the actual problem, because that might actually require a lot of hard work, and inconvenience them. Far easier just to bitch and moan about other white people, who aren't as gloriously WOKE as they are. Much easier, and much less of an inconvenience.

 

[notseqi]

I disagree. When I was playing the first Mario many years ago as a kid I already told my mum that I hoped it was created by a diverse team of developers.

Instead, it was only one person.

Spoiler

Because the japanese all look the same. Get it?

Some dickhead video games company hiring people based on their diversity isn't go to solve the problem, no matter what the SJW crowd believe. It's just a far easier thing to do than actually get down into the mud and shit, and tackle the problems at a more basic, fundamental level in our society.

That's it. Rather take a hit in terms of quality work and pissing off your talented staff because others can't carry their weight, right?

 

[SoraNoKuni]

I'll probably have to raise my flame shield, I consider myself as a true leftist(I don't even consider American left as left wingers, you guys have really different views in politics than the rest of the world) but choosing a diverse staff/team just for the sake of it isn't forward thinking, people should be valued for their skills/creativity regardless of color, ethnicity etc.

If someone can deliver greatness, I don't care even if he is a a non binary terratomorphous alien with a dick on it's forehead.

 

[Saruhashi]

Meh.

In all honesty I would say that for the majority of games I have absolutely no idea who made them.
I recognize certain developers produce content that I tend to enjoy but that's where it stops, mostly.

The truth is that I think diversity can be a good thing and this is especially good in a videogame context because you can really infuse different styles and philosophies into your game.

When it comes to coding for sure you want the best people on it but outside of that I would say projects can gain a lot by thinking outside the box.
Of course, they won't all be hits so there is an element of risk there.

Where it all starts to come apart is when political activists get involved and it seems like developers are making decisions to appease those activists.

It's kind of funny to think that in my early teens I was enjoying so many videogames that were, completely unbeknown to me, made by some much older guys in offices on the other side of the world.

The differences between myself and the developers who made the games I loved could hardly have been greater.

Nowadays though people act as though those game developers of old were actually just like me and now what I need is a game made by some chick who is of a similar age, cultural background and social class to me with probably many of the same interests cos that's the only way I'll learn to be different.

Like as if I'm going to be sitting here enjoying being in a happy marriage, to an awesome woman, but suddenly because the newest AAA shite had some chick doing the character designs and the story is "about women" I'm gonna be like "holy shit after all these years I finally get women."

Diversity in the gaming industry is good. Let's have more of it.
Diversity in the content of games is good. Let's have more of that too.

This idea that we somehow NEED it so that us awful gamers can finally see the error of our ways is bullshit.
These constant attempts to defend games from criticism by branding the critics bigots is bullshit.
Attempts to correct the balance by telling players "white men have owned video games for long enough give someone else a turn" is bullshit.
Constantly attacking games that fail to live up to SJW standards is bullshit.

At the end of the day we just need to take responsibility for our own purchases.
I've always felt that if there ever comes a day when the modern games are just not for me and the industry has moved on from catering to dudes like me then I'll just play old games. No problem.

If you see a game and don't like the character designs then just go ahead and don't buy it.
If, like BFV for example, the developers are acting like dickheads then just don't buy their game.
Reward developers who are doing the things that you like by buying their games instead.

 

[llien]

People of diverse backgrounds do not receive the quality of education and training that straight, white people do.

So girls, who outnumber boys at college for decades (it's just, now the gap has grown, oh, and we have discovered it by examining who owes more student debt) somehow are still not getting "the quality of education and training" that some abstract bad white heterosexual men do (unless they are Asian).

How does that work, exactly?

 

[llien]

In retrospect, there were warning signs of what was to come. A year before my troubles began, my department met to discuss the two new faculty positions we were filling. Our chair opened the meeting by announcing that “we will be in deep shit if we don’t hire two women.” In response, I pointed out that we all agreed on the goal: greater faculty diversity would attract students and contribute to our departmental life. But that shouldn’t be our sole criteria. For one, only 27 percent of new PhDs in philosophy were women, and many places wanted to hire them. If two candidates were close in our evaluation, I suggested, we ought to hire the woman or person of color. But our central goal should be to hire the best candidates.

The looks around the room made it clear that these remarks had not been well received. Other attempts to introduce divergent viewpoints into discussions drew a similar response. It was announced that an upcoming departmental workshop on feminism would only be open to female faculty and students. Was this desirable? I asked. Or even legal? Would it be acceptable to hold a workshop that was limited to men?

Inconvenient inquiries like these have traditionally been central to the philosopher’s trade. Questioning ought to be non-denominational, and I ask equally pointed questions in conversation with liberals and conservatives, theists and atheists. My colleagues, however, now viewed matters differently. A growing list of issues was no longer open to debate, and my questions stamped me as a defender of repudiated points of view.

Ordeal by Title IX

This approach has been greeted with hostility by many colleagues. This is understandable, for it challenges humanists to climb down from the ivory tower and make their research directly relevant to the public.

quillette.com

 

[FunkMiller]

So girls, who outnumber boys at college for decades (it's just, now the gap has grown, oh, and we have discovered it by examining who owes more student debt) somehow are still not getting "the quality of education and training" that some abstract bad white heterosexual men do (unless they are Asian).

How does that work, exactly?

If you think there's no misogyny in our society then I'm sure as hell not going to bother arguing with you. Most white heterosexual men are decent, honourable and just want to do the best thing they can for them and theirs. But there are some absolute cunts out there too. Clear those fuckers out of their positions of power, and we might be getting somewhere - instead of, you know, just putting little disclaimers on the front of our crappy open world video games telling everybody how the team behind this game comes from a variety of diverse backgrounds...

 

[Ellery]

I am not worried. It will sort it out eventually. (I agree that talent should be much more important than any quotas). But we have seen in the past that stuff gets called out very quickly if people hate it. See Mass Effect Andromeda, Halo Infinite, etc.

For anyone that is afraid that your games or gaming in general is taken away then just vote with your wallet. Buy the games that meet your personal requirements in terms of quality. Money is the most important thing for them.

What can I say though. In my opinion gaming is extremely good right now and recently (especially in 2020) we have been treated with some real gaming gems and the outlook for the future is promising.

In my opinion "the real enemy" is microtransactions, soulless bland money grab games, Gaming as a service, games being designed around having lots of hours of playtime so they get more money on gamepass or other digital subscription services and in general "long term greed". I have seen what has happened to Blizzard since Bobby was involved.


TL;DR : Judge the final product. Vote with your wallet if you don't like something. Be vocal about what you dislike about a game in a mannered fashion. Don't be a toxic idiot that blames things on the background of the developers. You look like a fool if you say "Halo Infinite is bad because they have 20 women working for them". Just say "Yo Phil the Technical and Visual Quality of Halo Infinite is disappointing and it hurts my excitement for the title".

 

[notseqi]

If someone can deliver greatness, I don't care even if he is a a non binary terratomorphous alien with a dick on it's forehead.

Also true. I don't care how woke/coloured/gendered somebody is if they make a good game and keep their politics either out of it or don't make it a pivotal part with heavy handed lectures.
Should there already be some games like that I applaud the developers efforts because I didn't notice.

 

[llien]

if you think there's no misogyny in our society

I don't want to switch subjects, thank you very much.

But there are some absolute cunts out there too.

Let me try to paint the full picture.
The statement:
Not all man are very bad, but there are some very bad men.
And those very bad men are (obviously?) the main reason why girls/women are under-represented in certain areas.

The data at hand:
Since women/girls are actually majority at college, and obviously it is mathematically impossible for them to be under-represented in all fields, we have subject where women are vastly outnumbering men, and vice versa

The conclusion:
Number of bad man in certain fields (engineering, math, IT, medicine: surgeon) fending off women/girls is much higher than number of bad men in other fields (literature, biology, psychology, medicine: veterinarians)

All good so far. May I add regional differences into the picture, or is it just US (some other country?) local theory?

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't want to switch subjects, thank you very much.


Let me try to paint the full picture.
The statement:
Not all man are very bad, but there are some very bad men.
And those very bad men are (obviously?) the main reason why girls/women are under-represented in certain areas.

The data at hand:
Since women/girls are actually majority at college, and obviously it is mathematically for them to be under-represented in all fields, we have subject where women are vastly outnumbering men, and vice versa

The conclusion:
Number of bad man in certain fields (engineering, math, IT, medicine: surgeon) is much higher than a number of bad men in other fields (literature, biology, psychology, medicine: veterinarians)

All good so far. May I add regional differences into the picture, or is it just US (some other country?) local theory?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

 

[sublimit]

Just give bigger budgets to Japanese developers and let them go nuts.

 

[Night.Ninja]

Unfortunately the country has gone insane and hires based on your skin color or lgbt etc.

So wait were they not hiring based on gender and skin color before?

 

[llien]

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

I'm trying to understand your point of view.