Bigotry is obviously terrible, but I don't think it justifies taking another human's life.
More on the story:
http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/149864755.html
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What happens when a black trans woman 'stands her ground'
- Thread starter lexi
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Bigotry is obviously terrible, but I don't think it justifies taking another human's life.
More on the story:
http://www.startribune.com/local/minneapolis/149864755.html
She was in a mens jail awaiting trial so.... It's no secret that trans women are treated as men by the legal system.
Femmeworth
Banned
Unfortunately, yes.
Devolution
Member
I don't think she should be given a full pardon but I'd say the fear factor was well established given how transpeople are generally treated and that she was already battered with something.
mercenar1e
Member
if you go to trial and your found guilty take the original deal and multiply it by 2-4x and that's what your looking at
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
RiskyChris, is that you?
Gentleman Jack
Member
If I thought I had a case for my own defense I would never take the plea deal in her shoes. Any amount of time in prison for an LGBT person is likely to be crippling if not lethal.
ChocolateCupcakes
Member
So she awaited trial in a men's jail. Are there no laws that cover this or were they being mean-spirited?
Gentleman Jack
Member
The laws have gone unwritten, which gives wardens and law enforcement a lot of latitude.
Apparently she was in solitary for the eleven months she was being held, which sounds like a nightmare.
The court system really does have to figure something out when it comes to our transgendered brothers and sisters.
mercenar1e
Member
i don't think there's a law that covers a situation like hers.. anyone in her shoes will always get sent to a male prison, i don't see that changing anytime soon.
OJdaKiller
Member
"McDonald allegedly admitted that she took out a pair of scissors to scare Schmitz, and that Schmitz ran into them during the fight"
So it wasn't a stabbing...It was running into scissors...Considering the nature of the incident, unless GAF were ruling on this case, no one is going to buy that. I guess she must have ran into the glass that was flying in front of her then?
So it wasn't a stabbing...It was running into scissors...Considering the nature of the incident, unless GAF were ruling on this case, no one is going to buy that. I guess she must have ran into the glass that was flying in front of her then?
1) She plead guilty....I don't get it. Do people believe that she felt pressured to plead that way?
2) 3 years in prison for 2nd degree manslaughter? Isn't that a little low? Or maybe I have that confused with 2nd degree murder....
3) "DICKS" is the word that got censored in that article?
mercenar1e
Member
yeah i don't buy her story lol.. can you imagine trying to convince a jury that someone ran into your scissors? it screams guilty, that's prob why she didn't take it to trial
I no case do I want to defend her stabbing someone (it still was a human being that died after all), but what get me most about this story is the fact that she has been the victim of both racism and sexism, where the latter continues even during and possibly after trial (chances of being put in an all-male prison).
(Hello society, wake up call!)
(Hello society, wake up call!)
ChocolateCupcakes
Member
Thanks for clearing this up. I'm really surprised there are no laws for this. I definitely feel for her.
mercenar1e
Member
getting 3 years for 2nd degree manslaughter is the best possible deal she can get, she served 11 months so she'll be out in 2
aren't trans and gay inmates usually separated from the general population? although that doesn't mean she wouldn't have a hard time anyway because i'm sure there are still predatory trans and gay inmates in prison that wouldn't think twice about messing with her.
Devolution
Member
Also guards who look the other way or are predators themselves.
Femmeworth
Banned
mercenar1e
Member
yes, she was placed into solitary confinement, she might stay in confinement for the rest of her sentence! think about it alone in a cell for 20+ hours with nothing to do for the next 2 years
Indrid Cold1
Member
Give me a break. I simply pointed out that 3 years in jail, potentially 18 months, is hardly "the full weight of the law" for stabbing a man to death in the street with a pair of scissors, and certainly not the maximum penalty a court could impose for 2nd degree manslaughter.
Your insinuation that by making said point I am subsequently ok with this person being raped and murdered is astoundingly absurd.
...
Sorry, I get a bit worked up when I read things like this, I take back what I said.
It's really upsetting that black trans women face such ridiculous discrimination and violence, most tragically end up like this. All I see here is an already extremely vulnerable member of society get punished for being in a situation she wanted nothing to do with.
CrocMother
Banned
If I were trans, I'd seriously consider moving to Scandinavia. It'd take a lot of work though, that's for sure.
empty vessel
Member
Whether you had a defense available had you used lethal force would depend on more than just whether you had a bottle slash your face. For example, if you did anything to provoke the throwing of the bottle, or if you had "manned up" to the thrower before it happened, then the law might not permit you to use lethal force even if you not only feared but actually suffered grievous bodily injury. But for a person who was not an aggressor in any way and who did not, essentially, start or consent to be in a fight, the law gives him or her fairly wide latitude to use lethal force to defend himself/herself from grievous bodily injury. Even the duty to retreat imposed by most states (except so-called "stand your ground" states) would not necessarily defeat a defense here, because the bodily injury was already actualized. The person here not only feared grievous bodily injury (the difficult cases), it was factually inflicted upon her. That doesn't mean the defense can definitely be established, but the law would likely give her wide latitude to use lethal force here provided the evidence showed she did not provoke it.
That said, this case would be difficult for a defense lawyer even assuming all the circumstances show legitimate self-defense. Given her status as a black trans woman who killed a white man, she would have a much harder time in front of a jury (who would likely view her as a black man) than, say, a non-trans white woman who killed a black man.
For those interested, here is Minnesota law: "The rule requires (1) the absence of aggression or provocation on the part of the slayer; (2) the actual and honest belief of the slayer that he was in imminent danger of death, great bodily harm, or some felony and it was necessary to take the action he did; (3) the existence of reasonable grounds for such belief; and (4) the duty of the slayer to retreat or avoid the danger if reasonably possible."
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17429424961952688633&q=152+N.W.2d+529&hl=en&as_sdt=2,44
(The linked case grants a new trial in circumstances that the court seems to have thought warranted self-defense, and no bodily injury was ever even actualized.)
Dreams-Visions
Member
justified.
Hey, relax a bit. Nobody in here is disagreeing with you. I think we all pretty much agree that discrimination is bad. If that is what happened here, then it's horrible. And if she winds up in a men's prison, that's also horrible.
But not every horrible thing that happens to a transgendered person is because of discrimination. This situation sounds like it was in self-defense, but she was the one who decided to plead guilty instead of self-defense. Maybe she had her reasons that she didn't think she could win that case.
Since she didn't plead self-defense, three years is a pretty light sentence for killing someone. It could have been much worse. It sounds to me like the judge acknowledged the situation and specifically did not throw the book at her.
It sucks. The whole thing sucks. She found herself in a horrible situation thanks to a group of intolerant jackasses, and she's suffering for it - not just with jail time, either, but with the knowledge that she killed someone, which will undoubtedly fuck with any sane person's head, no matter how horrible that person was. But it sounds to me that, other than the intolerant jackasses, there wasn't the discrimination that you see here.
Why are people citing 'stand your ground' in this situation at all? There wasn't an indication either way whether retreat was even viable, and based on the brief description ... it doesn't sound like it.
This sounds like a traditional self-defense situation, which exists as a defense in all States (though the details vary).
This sounds like a traditional self-defense situation, which exists as a defense in all States (though the details vary).
Femmeworth
Banned
She plead guilty to second degree manslaughter, which is basically self-defense. I'm not a legal expert, though.
Manos: The Hans of Fate
Banned
That is not the case at all.
https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.205
It's more like negligent homicide.
Let's get out of this state, possibly this country.
We should research this. Fuck this country. It's the 21st century and people can just look the other way when LGBT people get fucked over? That's not right.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
You think its just LGBT people? Wake up.
Minorities and the impoverished get screwed all the time in the legal system.
The sky is also blue.
Why don't you try to help change things for the better instead of saying, "F this country, let's leave!"
This is not the time or place to have a "who has a shittier life?" contest.
obviously
What the literal fuck are you talking about. I see a thread full of people discussing this. She plead guilty for murder and got 3 years ! Maybe get off your soapbox, study criminal justice, and change the way people think instead of bitching about the same freaking habitat you thrive in. America is one of the best countries, you sound ungrateful as hell to be quite honest.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Sadly, that's all these threads ever are.
Femmeworth
Banned
Yeah, yeah. I shouldn't open my trap about things I don't understand. I know. >_>
Sad thing is, she should be getting a medal, not going to jail.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Totally. The judge should have high-fived her, not slapped the cuffs on.
It is too bad that people only hope for vigilantism in these cases and not justice/mercy. A society that hopes for the death of perpetrators and roots for the death penalty is a sick one, indeed.
For real?
I'm not defending bigotry, but we don't know shit about this dude.
I'm guessing that at least a few of the people celebrating this dude's death are against the death penalty.
Edit: Didn't see the post above mine.
America is one of the best countries if you're a cis white straight male, I agree with this.
She took a plea deal for 2nd degree manslaughter, likely fearing what a jury is going to think of a black transgendered woman charged with murder.
She killed someone with a pair of scissors.
childplease
Banned
No no no the guy ran into them. Lol
I call that self-defense. She didn't walk up to some guy unprovoked and stab him.
Maybe you're right though, I should give the guy with the swastika tattoo the benefit of the doubt.
While fearing for her life.
Based on the article, it's too hard to say if it she was using self defense or not. The article doesn't make it look like her life was in real danger. But there could be more to the story. However, killing someone, whether they are a racist, a bully, a bigot or not is still a big deal. They're gone forever from this world. Death should never be treated lightly.
Getting a glass bottle thrown at your head is not justification to kill a person, even if they aren't good people. Escalation of violence is never the answer. But I don't know the whole story, maybe they had weapons? Or began actually jumping her?
3 years is a very light sentence for murder. So it seems like she was smart to strike a plea. She's young. She'll be 27 when she gets out. Though then she'll be a convicted murderer, that doesn't look good on your resume. The whole thing sucks.
Getting a glass bottle thrown at your head is not justification to kill a person, even if they aren't good people. Escalation of violence is never the answer. But I don't know the whole story, maybe they had weapons? Or began actually jumping her?
3 years is a very light sentence for murder. So it seems like she was smart to strike a plea. She's young. She'll be 27 when she gets out. Though then she'll be a convicted murderer, that doesn't look good on your resume. The whole thing sucks.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
The guy was actually Edward Norton's character after jail. Where is your Nazi straw man now??!?!
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