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[Emitan]

Getting a glass bottle thrown at your head is not justification to kill a person, even if they aren't good people. Escalation of violence is never the answer. But I don't know the whole story, maybe they had weapons? Or began actually jumping her?

I can see where you're going with that, but you're calm right now, you can look at it logically. But when someone is harassing you because of who you are, you're not going to think rationally. I'm definitely not happy this story ended with a death, but I think she was justified in defending herself.

But of course I do have a bias.

 

[Izick]

The guy seemed like a real asshole, but that's still murder.

 

[Valnen]

The guy seemed like a real asshole, but that's still murder.

Lot of anti self defense people here...

 

[Emitan]

The guy seemed like a real asshole, but that's still murder.

I think its only manslaughter if its self defense.

 

[Shurs]

I call that self-defense. She didn't walk up to some guy unprovoked and stab him.

Maybe you're right though, I should give the guy with the swastika tattoo the benefit of the doubt.

He allegedly had a swastika tattoo. Let's suppose he did, does that somehow justify his death?

He wasn't the one who threw the glass. There were witnesses who confirmed it was one of the women with him who did that. Had he pulled a knife or a gun out

This thing escalated, as fights can, but if you stab someone to death, there needs to be repercussions.

He was probably an asshole. He was probably a bigot. He was probably a terrible fucking person. Does that make it okay to kill him?

 

[lexi]

She pled guilty to manslaughter, not murder, she is NOT a murderer.

These people are murderers.

 

[empty vessel]

Getting a glass bottle thrown at your head is not justification to kill a person, even if they aren't good people.

As a matter of law it absolutely can be. It depends on the totality of the circumstances, however.

 

[Valnen]

Does that make it okay to kill him?

If you're defending yourself, yes.

 

[Shurs]

If you're defending yourself, yes.

Did he have a knife or a gun or something?

We know that he wasn't the one who threw the glass at CeCe.

 

[Jackson]

I can see where you're going with that, but you're calm right now, you can look at it logically. But when someone is harassing you because of who you are, you're not going to think rationally. I'm definitely not happy this story ended with a death, but I think she was justified in defending herself.

Oh totally. I get that. But being in the heat of the moment doesn't justify killing someone. And I'm sure she gets harassed a lot, which sucks, maybe she snapped because they took it too far? The way I see it is it still doesn't justify killing someone. Only truly, completely life threatening self defense justifies killing someone. And I'm not clear from the article presented whether it is, or isn't. And since the guy didn't throw the bottle at her, how did he threaten her life? It's unclear.

I've been harassed and been in fist fights with strangers, not because of who I am though, so I can't understand what she's gone through in her life. But those retaliation didn't justify killing someone as a response.

My position is I'm really unclear about her being truly life threatened or not from the facts presented. Since she got so little time for manslaughter, it's possible so was the prosecution.

I'm just anti-death more than anything else really. But if you poke a hornet's nest you're liable to get stung. They harassed her and one of them paid the ultimate price for it. If they had left her alone, nothing would have went down.

 

[EYEL1NER]

He was probably an asshole. He was probably a bigot. He was probably a terrible fucking person. Does that make it okay to kill him?

Well, he was allegedly using a number of slurs and derogatory words towards her.
But I thought I had learned from GAF that words are words and are never a justification for violence, so I guess that wouldn't be a good reason to kill him.

Did he have a knife or a gun or something?

We know that he wasn't the one who threw the glass at CeCe.

If she was afraid for her safety and life, her stabbing this dude certainly prevented the violent bottle-throwing woman from hurting her further.

 

[Orayn]

Oh totally. I get that. But being in the heat of the moment doesn't justify murder. And I'm sure she gets harassed a lot, maybe she snapped because they took it too far? The way I see it is it still doesn't justify murder, only true completely life threatening self defense. And I'm not clear from the article presented whether it is, or isn't.

I've been harassed and been in fist fights with strangers, not because of who I am though. But those retaliation didn't justify murder as a response.

My position is I'm really unclear about her being life threatened or not from the facts presented. Since she got so little time for murder, it's possible so was the prosecution.

The story says manslaughter several times. That's not the same thing as murder.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Hard to form a real opinion with such little details. If she had life threatening injuries that would justify self defense I would think the article would mention it.

 

[Jenga]

She pled guilty to manslaughter, not murder, she is NOT a murderer.

These people are murderers.

she is however, a manslaughterer

 

[Shurs]

If she was afraid for her safety and life, her stabbing this dude certainly prevented the violent bottle-throwing woman from hurting her further.

Oh, well then it's totally justified.

 

[Devolution]

Hard to form a real opinion with such little details. If she had life threatening injuries that would justify self defense I would think the article would mention it.

How much injury must one suffer before they can lash out at their attacker?

 

[Jackson]

The story says manslaughter several times. That's not the same thing as murder.

My mistake.

 

[empty vessel]

Oh totally. I get that. But being in the heat of the moment doesn't justify murder. And I'm sure she gets harassed a lot, maybe she snapped because they took it too far? The way I see it is it still doesn't justify murder, only true completely life threatening self defense. And I'm not clear from the article presented whether it is, or isn't.

That may be your opinion, but it isn't the law in any state.

I've been harassed and been in fist fights with strangers, not because of who I am though. But those retaliation didn't justify murder as a response.

Depending on the circumstances, they may well as a legal matter justify homicide. Although "harassment" isn't the best word to describe an actual physical assault. Whether the woman acted in a way before the assault that disallows self-defense by lethal force is another matter.

 

[Shurs]

How much injury must one suffer before they can lash out at their attacker?

He wasn't the one who threw the glass.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

How much injury must one suffer before they can lash out at their attacker?

By stabbing them in the chest with a sharp weapon? Gotta be something pretty substantial imho.

 

[empty vessel]

He wasn't the one who threw the glass.

That may or may not matter. Since there was not a trial, we don't have any evidence about what happened and never will. The legal legitimacy of self-defense depends upon what it was reasonable for the accused to believe under the circumstances. This would be true even if Schmidt were a completely innocent by-stander who had nothing to do with anything.

 

[Subprime]

I know were supposed to be moral or something, but who fucking cares. He was a nazi. He started a physical confrontation. What do we gain as society by imprisoning her? We lose a bunch of tax dollars and we put someone into a potentially dangerous situation. Will she regret what she did? Not fucking likely.

 

[Conciliator]

I'm not sure what kind of sentence second-degree manslaughter nets you, but can you get out with going to prison for that? I get there's a fuzzy line there where it's not self-defense(I guess she would have had to move toward the 'victim' to stab him), but then at the same time if someone is throwing genuinely threatening shit at you, and you don't have a way to get away easily, I would say moving toward the attacker and attacking yourself in order to get them to stop throwing shit at you is self-defense. Ugh, I don't know, hope she gets a light sentence though.

 

[Slavik81]

How much injury must one suffer before they can lash out at their attacker?

It's irrelevant how much injury they have already suffered. They can only lash out if it would defend them from further harm. Revenge is never a justification.

 

[daffy]

America is one of the best countries if you're a cis white straight male, I agree with this.

I think it's one of the best countries in general. Hate speech is protected in America, that is its major fault. I don't know why most Americans can't see the dangers, as evidenced by this woman being egged into murder. But this woman is not infallible. There is no way to kill with scissors without intending to kill. She took a plea deal because she knew that. Regardless of her struggles, she is still a human and knows right from wrong.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

What is this "Stand your ground"-thing mentioned in this thread?
Is it just another term for self-defense or... ?

 

[Dead Man]

The guy seemed like a real asshole, but that's still murder.

No, it's still homicide. Which can be completely justifiable.

 

[Dram]

What is this "Stand your ground"-thing mentioned in this thread?
Is it just another term for self-defense or... ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

 

[Baconsammy]

Murder is murder, and even if Minn had Stand Your Ground, I doubt this would apply. Maybe I'm a horrible person, but I'm glad the Nazi shithead is dead.

 

[lexi]

Here is something that provides much more information on the case and other details. Cece will likely serve around 20-21 months in total, having 1/3 reduced and including time already served.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

A stand-your-ground law states that a person may use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat, without an obligation to retreat first. In some cases, a person may use deadly force in public areas without a duty to retreat. Under these legal concepts, a person is justified in using deadly force in certain situations and the "stand your ground" law would be a defense or immunity to criminal charges and civil suit.

Hm, I must admit that I kinda like this law. I see a bunch of issues with it, especially if implemented in a state or nation where people on an average do not retreat - as that, even if it can be considered cowardly, is the safest (and imho, the best) way of dealing with threats.

 

[Emitan]

Where in Texas do you live?

Maybe it's time to move to Austin.

Do be vigilant wherever you are. Most people are fine; the few who aren't can hurt you badly. My father's best friend was a lesbian mistaken for a gay man and was beaten unconscious by three drunk idiots, in liberal little Iowa City. She ended up with a skull fracture but recovered fine thank god. Just please, be careful around bar-heavy areas and at parties and such. Drunk prejudiced people can do some horrible things.

I don't really hang out near bars and haven't even started transitioning so I don't really have anything to worry about...yet. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Ponn]

Sounds a lot like a bar fight. That clarified article posted said she was with a group. Doesn't sound like she was surrounded. Bar fights start for a lot of reasons, but don't usually end in some one dying. I'm certainly not going to feel bad for the racist/bigot but if they were in a group I can't see the whole group being held hostage outside. It also mentioned a "melee" which sounds a lot like bar fight to me.

 

[Onemic]

I wonder how Fox News will spin this if they ever run this story. I bet it will be the polar opposite of another self defense story going on around now...

 

[Emitan]

I wonder how Fox News will spin this if they ever run this story. I bet it will be the polar opposite of another self defense story going on around now...

"Trannies mobilizing MURDER SQUADS to indoctrinate your children or KILL THEM"