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What is freedom & liberty ?

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Burger

Member
Every time I see your American president on the news, or in the news, he is constantly spouting on about how he will do all he can to ensure that America remains a bastion of Freedom and Liberty.

My question is, what is he talking about? As Americans, what do you interpret him to be talking about ?

What makes America more freedom loving than my country ? My country was the first in the world to give woman the right to vote in elections, does my country have more freedom than yours ?

Why does Bush want to give other nations freedom ? Does he think that if other nations are not free, then he too in the end will loose his own freedom ?

What about China ? I'd say it's the largest non freedom loving country in the world. Why are they not signing up for Bush's "School of Freedom" ?

I don't mean to sound condescending, I just want to know what you think.
 

NLB2

Banned
When the president says "Freedom" or "Liberty" he is using them as a key word the way a hypnotist does. They have no real meaning to the president, nor do they to the people, however the people understand that they are something we should want to have and that the president fights to protect them for us.

However freedom and liberty are two words that mean the same thing and that is a free will or volition.
 

TheQueen'sOwn

insert blank space here
You just reminded me of this:

with the noise in the background from the televised war
and in the deafening pleasure I thought I heard someone say
if we walk away they'll walk away
but greed is a bottomless pit
and our freedom's a joke we're just taking a piss
and the whole world must watch the sad comic display
if you're still free start running away!
cause we're coming for you!


Landlocked Blues off the Bright Eyes cd.
 
If you are asking me, I don't buy any of it as a legitmate idea. To me it is all code speak for saying that we are going to invade/over throw every regime in the middle east. To what end, I can only imagine that it all ties back up to the ideals expressed by PNAC. (http://www.newamericancentury.org/)

I'm unfrotunately not following everything that is being said anymore, as I've kind of lost my motivation after this last election. But in general I distrust anything this administration says, and when they trot out Freedom! and Liberty! I just start thinking about INVASION! and WAR!
 

Tarazet

Member
Bush, as dumb as he is, can speak in the highest possible terms about democracy while simultaneously, systematically emasculating the entire American population, with the help of his filthy rich friends, and many people are gullible enough to believe they're being served. That takes talent. But for myself, I have no respect for the man, or any other American politician.
 

Jim Bowie

Member
QUESTIONS WILL NOT BE TOLERATED

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU

ALERT! TERRORIST IN VIOLATION OF MIND CODE 3! APPREHEND SUBJECT DEAD OR ALIVE!
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Burger said:
My question is, what is he talking about? As Americans, what do you interpret him to be talking about ?

They're empty soundbites. He's spouting off on America's founding principles, which are not unique in the world. What should be noted is that current U.S. foreign policy doesn't "spread" freedom equally, it hasn't for a very long time.

What makes America more freedom loving than my country ? My country was the first in the world to give woman the right to vote in elections, does my country have more freedom than yours ?

I don't expect you to have first-hand knowledge of political bases in the United States. But to put it simply, the President's most devout supporters really get off on the flag-waving.

Why does Bush want to give other nations freedom ? Does he think that if other nations are not free, then he too in the end will loose his own freedom ?

I think it's within the interest of most "free" countries to see "freedom," or more accurately, democracy spread. The manner in which this happens varies from one political school to another. The one the President and the majority of his cabinet subscribe to, unfortunately, prefers spreading it through military prowess rather than simply leading by example.


What about China ? I'd say it's the largest non freedom loving country in the world. Why are they not signing up for Bush's "School of Freedom" ?

It's kind of a pretty jarring, cold, slap across the face by reality. China produces shit for us on the cheap. They could literally have slavedrivers there, and the U.S. wouldn't blink. Double standards suck, and us having them certainly isn't helping spread "peace," you don't need to convince me of that. It's the politicians that don't seem to care.
 

Burger

Member
There must be SOMEONE here who believes ? Did 9/11 reduce the level of freedom within the U.S ? Do you have to fight for it ?

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I hear soundbites all the time about freedom & liberty, but I've never heard what it actually means to the people, and what it means to have it imposed on you in the case of Iraq.
 

kumanoki

Member
I think that the concepts of freedom and liberty on which most democracies (not just ours) are based vastly differ from the word our President is using. The words themselves have become overused and stigmatized. Just like 'Eat my shorts!' or 'Doh!' on the Simpsons. You hear it once, you've heard it one hundred times.

In the case of the President, Americans hear what they want to hear, and disregard the rest. They hear all the buzzwords- 'freedom', 'liberty', 'God', 'sovereign'- and immediately assume the rest.

I feel strongly about the concepts of freedom and liberty. I couldn't care less how many times our Prez says these words.

Actually, I think it would be funny to replace every Presidential buzzword with Homer Simpson shouting 'Doh!'. That would make the speeches tolerable, at the very least.
 

Burger

Member
xsarien said:

Thanks, that was interesting.

What do you think the current Administrations long term goal is this term ? I mean, has anyone asked "What do you hope to achieve most of all this term" ?

Do you think you would get something back like "I hope to spread freedom and liberty wherever possible, and work towards peace in nations, including our own, where there has previously been terror." ?? Because that's pretty ambiguious, and thats all I ever hear from your President. Ambiguity (except for WMD's).
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Burger said:
There must be SOMEONE here who believes ? Did 9/11 reduce the level of freedom within the U.S ? Do you have to fight for it ?

The shrill right will say that the PATRIOT Act will insure our security; the shrill left will say that it completely intrudes on our basic rights laid out in our founding documents.

The truth is that both sides are right. Deciding, ultimately, which way to push is the only fight going on. Where does the line between security and freedom get drawn? I don't even think anyone in the U.S. can answer that one.

Burger said:
Thanks, that was interesting.

What do you think the current Administrations long term goal is this term ? I mean, has anyone asked "What do you hope to achieve most of all this term" ?

Do you think you would get something back like "I hope to spread freedom and liberty wherever possible, and work towards peace in nations, including our own, where there has previously been terror." ?? Because that's pretty ambiguious, and thats all I ever hear from your President. Ambiguity (except for WMD's).

Thankfully, his plan for the second term seems to be focused on easily reversible domestic policies. I think, after the complete embarrassment of Iraq, our foreign policy will be much more restrained. The warmongers in the administration wanted to use Iraq as a test case, a sort of petri dish for someone's thesis, likely titled "Transforming a Region." The hardened supporters of this policy will tell you "Just wait 30 years!"

I think, given the deaths incurred by our invasion and occupation alone, that's a horrifying, cynical, and just plain sick thing to say.
 
Iraqi Elections will be seen as vindication that the freedom and liberty Bush talks about are real and not just rheteoric.
From what I gather most of the American people and her allies will believe this. Something I agree in part with too (in part).
 

Socreges

Banned
On this day, prescribed by law and marked by ceremony, we celebrate the durable wisdom of our Constitution, and recall the deep commitments that unite our country. I am grateful for the honor of this hour, mindful of the consequential times in which we live, and determined to fulfill the oath that I have sworn and you have witnessed.

At this second gathering, our duties are defined not by the words I use, but by the history we have seen together. For a half century, America defended our own D'oh! by standing watch on distant borders. After the shipwreck of communism came years of relative quiet, years of repose, years of sabbatical - and then there came a day of fire.

We have seen our vulnerability - and we have seen its deepest source. For as long as whole regions of the world simmer in resentment and tyranny - prone to ideologies that feed hatred and excuse murder - violence will gather, and multiply in destructive power, and cross the most defended borders, and raise a mortal threat. There is only one force of history that can break the reign of hatred and resentment, and expose the pretensions of tyrants, and reward the hopes of the decent and tolerant, and that is the force of human D'oh!.

We are led, by events and common sense, to one conclusion: The survival of D'oh! in our land increasingly depends on the success of D'oh! in other lands. The best hope for peace in our world is the expansion of D'oh! in all the world.

America's vital interests and our deepest beliefs are now one. From the day of our Founding, we have proclaimed that every man and woman on this earth has rights, and dignity, and matchless value, because they bear the image of the Maker of Heaven and earth. Across the generations we have proclaimed the imperative of self-government, because no one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave. Advancing these ideals is the mission that created our Nation. It is the honorable achievement of our fathers. Now it is the urgent requirement of our nation's security, and the calling of our time.

So it is the policy of the United States to seek and support the growth of democratic movements and institutions in every nation and culture, with the ultimate goal of ending tyranny in our world.

This is not primarily the task of arms, though we will defend ourselves and our friends by force of arms when necessary. D'oh!, by its nature, must be chosen, and defended by citizens, and sustained by the rule of law and the protection of minorities. And when the soul of a nation finally speaks, the institutions that arise may reflect customs and traditions very different from our own. America will not impose our own style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own D'oh!, and make their own way.

The great objective of ending tyranny is the concentrated work of generations. The difficulty of the task is no excuse for avoiding it. America's influence is not unlimited, but fortunately for the oppressed, America's influence is considerable, and we will use it confidently in D'oh! cause.

My most solemn duty is to protect this nation and its people against further attacks and emerging threats. Some have unwisely chosen to test America's resolve, and have found it firm.

We will persistently clarify the choice before every ruler and every nation: The moral choice between oppression, which is always wrong, and D'oh!, which is eternally right. America will not pretend that jailed dissidents prefer their chains, or that women welcome humiliation and servitude, or that any human being aspires to live at the mercy of bullies.

We will encourage reform in other governments by making clear that success in our relations will require the decent treatment of their own people. America's belief in human dignity will guide our policies, yet rights must be more than the grudging concessions of dictators; they are secured by free dissent and the participation of the governed. In the long run, there is no justice without D'oh!, and there can be no human rights without human D'oh!.

Some, I know, have questioned the global appeal of D'oh! - though this time in history, four decades defined by the swiftest advance of D'oh! ever seen, is an odd time for doubt. Americans, of all people, should never be surprised by the power of our ideals. Eventually, the call of D'oh! comes to every mind and every soul. We do not accept the existence of permanent tyranny because we do not accept the possibility of permanent slavery. D'oh! will come to those who love it.

Today, America speaks anew to the peoples of the world:

All who live in tyranny and hopelessness can know: the United States will not ignore your oppression, or excuse your oppressors. When you stand for your D'oh!, we will stand with you.

Democratic reformers facing repression, prison, or exile can know: America sees you for who you are: the future leaders of your free country.

The rulers of outlaw regimes can know that we still believe as Abraham Lincoln did: "Those who deny D'oh! to others deserve it not for themselves; and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."

The leaders of governments with long habits of control need to know: To serve your people you must learn to trust them. Start on this journey of progress and justice, and America will walk at your side.

And all the allies of the United States can know: we honor your friendship, we rely on your counsel, and we depend on your help. Division among free nations is a primary goal of D'oh! enemies. The concerted effort of free nations to promote democracy is a prelude to our enemies' defeat.

Today, I also speak anew to my fellow citizens:

From all of you, I have asked patience in the hard task of securing America, which you have granted in good measure. Our country has accepted obligations that are difficult to fulfill, and would be dishonorable to abandon. Yet because we have acted in the great liberating tradition of this nation, tens of millions have achieved their D'oh!. And as hope kindles hope, millions more will find it. By our efforts, we have lit a fire as well - a fire in the minds of men. It warms those who feel its power, it burns those who fight its progress, and one day this untamed fire of D'oh! will reach the darkest corners of our world.

A few Americans have accepted the hardest duties in this cause - in the quiet work of intelligence and diplomacy … the idealistic work of helping raise up free governments … the dangerous and necessary work of fighting our enemies. Some have shown their devotion to our country in deaths that honored their whole lives - and we will always honor their names and their sacrifice.

All Americans have witnessed this idealism, and some for the first time. I ask our youngest citizens to believe the evidence of your eyes. You have seen duty and allegiance in the determined faces of our soldiers. You have seen that life is fragile, and evil is real, and courage triumphs. Make the choice to serve in a cause larger than your wants, larger than yourself - and in your days you will add not just to the wealth of our country, but to its character.

America has need of idealism and courage, because we have essential work at home - the unfinished work of American D'oh!. In a world moving toward D'oh!, we are determined to show the meaning and promise of D'oh!.

In America's ideal of D'oh!, citizens find the dignity and security of economic independence, instead of laboring on the edge of subsistence. This is the broader definition of D'oh! that motivated the Homestead Act, the Social Security Act, and the G.I. Bill of Rights. And now we will extend this vision by reforming great institutions to serve the needs of our time. To give every American a stake in the promise and future of our country, we will bring the highest standards to our schools, and build an ownership society. We will widen the ownership of homes and businesses, retirement savings and health insurance - preparing our people for the challenges of life in a free society. By making every citizen an agent of his or her own destiny, we will give our fellow Americans greater D'oh! from want and fear, and make our society more prosperous and just and equal.

In America's ideal of D'oh!, the public interest depends on private character - on integrity, and tolerance toward others, and the rule of conscience in our own lives. Self-government relies, in the end, on the governing of the self. That edifice of character is built in families, supported by communities with standards, and sustained in our national life by the truths of Sinai, the Sermon on the Mount, the words of the Koran, and the varied faiths of our people. Americans move forward in every generation by reaffirming all that is good and true that came before - ideals of justice and conduct that are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

In America's ideal of D'oh!, the exercise of rights is ennobled by service, and mercy, and a heart for the weak. D'oh! for all does not mean independence from one another. Our nation relies on men and women who look after a neighbor and surround the lost with love. Americans, at our best, value the life we see in one another, and must always remember that even the unwanted have worth. And our country must abandon all the habits of racism, because we cannot carry the message of D'oh! and the baggage of bigotry at the same time.

From the perspective of a single day, including this day of dedication, the issues and questions before our country are many. From the viewpoint of centuries, the questions that come to us are narrowed and few. Did our generation advance the cause of D'oh!? And did our character bring credit to that cause?

These questions that judge us also unite us, because Americans of every party and background, Americans by choice and by birth, are bound to one another in the cause of D'oh!. We have known divisions, which must be healed to move forward in great purposes - and I will strive in good faith to heal them. Yet those divisions do not define America. We felt the unity and fellowship of our nation when D'oh! came under attack, and our response came like a single hand over a single heart. And we can feel that same unity and pride whenever America acts for good, and the victims of disaster are given hope, and the unjust encounter justice, and the captives are set free.

We go forward with complete confidence in the eventual triumph of D'oh!. Not because history runs on the wheels of inevitability; it is human choices that move events. Not because we consider ourselves a chosen nation; God moves and chooses as He wills. We have confidence because D'oh! is the permanent hope of mankind, the hunger in dark places, the longing of the soul. When our Founders declared a new order of the ages; when soldiers died in wave upon wave for a union based on D'oh!; when citizens marched in peaceful outrage under the banner "D'oh! Now" - they were acting on an ancient hope that is meant to be fulfilled. History has an ebb and flow of justice, but history also has a visible direction, set by D'oh! and the Author of D'oh!.

When the Declaration of Independence was first read in public and the D'oh! Bell was sounded in celebration, a witness said, "It rang as if it meant something." In our time it means something still. America, in this young century, proclaims D'oh! throughout all the world, and to all the inhabitants thereof. Renewed in our strength - tested, but not weary - we are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of D'oh!.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Fresh Prince said:
Iraqi Elections will be seen as vindication that the freedom and liberty Bush talks about are real and not just rheteoric.

Protip: The Iraqi elections will not magically stop the insurgents.
 
xsarien said:
Protip: The Iraqi elections will not magically stop the insurgents.
Protip: Most people don't care as long as Iraq's are seen to elect a leader then it would up to that leader to make peace (America would play a role but the main emphasis would be on the Iraqi Government). America can ride out into the Sun Set.
 

kumanoki

Member
Burger said:
There must be SOMEONE here who believes ? Did 9/11 reduce the level of freedom within the U.S ? Do you have to fight for it ?

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I hear soundbites all the time about freedom & liberty, but I've never heard what it actually means to the people, and what it means to have it imposed on you in the case of Iraq.

What do you think the current Administrations long term goal is this term ? I mean, has anyone asked "What do you hope to achieve most of all this term" ?

Do you think you would get something back like "I hope to spread freedom and liberty wherever possible, and work towards peace in nations, including our own, where there has previously been terror." ?? Because that's pretty ambiguious, and thats all I ever hear from your President. Ambiguity (except for WMD's).

I believe fully in the concepts of freedom and liberty set forth by our founding fathers.

I believe that 9/11 did give Americans a fleeting glimpse at the shittiness of our global situation, but that view was quickly obscured by a fervor for retribution that our government officials have been glutting on ever since.

Freedon and liberty, to me, means that I could live out the rest of my life, secure in the knowledge that I can provide for my family, raise my children, with minimal threats to my enaliable rights. Isn't that what all people want? Where our Prez has the idea to force this ideal on people, I believe we should leave everyone well enough alone.

In my opinion, using these words to push a military operation flies in the face of everthing I've been taught about the greatness of my country and people. I love my fellow countrymen, and my homeland, but my President makes me hate the hell out of my government.

No one can seem to pinpoint exactly what this administration is poised to do, although it seems to me that we're looking at a lot of quick-fix solutions to long standing problems. It's easy for me to make a crass comment about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, investors, lobbyists, etc, etc. Perhaps ten years from now we'll all be able to look back on this Presidency and give one of those half-hearted laughs.

I would never trust anything my President says, even if he said my ass was on fire and it actually was. I would rather have a burned ass.
 

Burger

Member
Fresh Prince said:
Iraqi Elections will be seen as vindication that the freedom and liberty Bush talks about are real and not just rheteoric.
From what I gather most of the American people and her allies will believe this. Something I agree in part with too (in part).

I'm not so sure I agree with all of that. I agree that a change of leadership in Iraq would have eventually been necessary, and would have eventually occured regardless of what the US did. Hell I don't even believe that the removal of Saddam only would have changed the overall regieme much at all. I don't believe fundamentally what the U.S. did was wrong, but the scale, and way they did it was abhorent. I also believe that the reasons they gave the U.S. public (you) and the world (me) for the invasion were fabricated and untrue. I'm not 100% sure of the real motive behind the 'liberation' of Iraq, but I'm sure it wasn't for freedom & liberty, and it definatley wasn't because Saddam posed a threat to anyone.

My view, which from what I hear is the view of alot of people outside the U.S. is that overall, Iraq is in no better a place than it was before the invasion. Is there any less torture or death than before ?? No way. All I can see is the destruction of alot of valuable infrastructure (valuable because of U.N sanctions) and lives lost. Is the average law abiding Iraqi family any better off now ?? I doubt it. Some are, most are not I think.
 
xsarien said:
Now you're just dreaming, we're going to be there for years.
Maybe I should be more articulate: The current American Administration can ride out into the sunset.

Yeah I'm not American- but the thing is IMO that the majority of Americans (that voted for Bush) will feel and the the USA's allies (mainly politicians and conservatives) feel that Bush to an extent is a man of his word. But he is being manipulative Iraq went from WMD's to Freedom and Liberty- but now I think most of his supporters don't mind.
 

AntoneM

Member
Burger said:
Every time I see your American president on the news, or in the news, he is constantly spouting on about how he will do all he can to ensure that America remains a bastion of Freedom and Liberty.

My question is, what is he talking about? As Americans, what do you interpret him to be talking about ?
He would more or less be talking about democracy and capitalism.

What makes America more freedom loving than my country ? My country was the first in the world to give woman the right to vote in elections, does my country have more freedom than yours ?
nothing. why do you feel threatened?

Why does Bush want to give other nations freedom ? Does he think that if other nations are not free, then he too in the end will loose his own freedom ?
to put it shortly he subscribe to an ideology that considers freedom and liberty good things and he will do what he can to spread each to as many people he can.

What about China ? I'd say it's the largest non freedom loving country in the world. Why are they not signing up for Bush's "School of Freedom" ?
don't ask me why China does what it does. The question: Why does Agrentina do what it does? Is just as relevant to this discussion.

I don't mean to sound condescending, I just want to know what you think.
that's cool, hope I helped you
 

Burger

Member
max_cool said:
nothing. why do you feel threatened?

I don't feel threatened. I was asking why your president uses these words so often, when other world leaders, save maybe Tony Bliar, don't feel the need. I guess it's because Americans need to constantly feel that Americas foriegn policy is the right way, what xsarien was saying. I guess also that my countries foriegn policy is not important enough anyway, like alot of other countries.

This is a discussion, not an argument.

max_cool said:
don't ask me why China does what it does. The question: Why does Agrentina do what it does? Is just as relevant to this discussion.

Of course it is. China was an example.
 

FightyF

Banned
Freedom and Liberty are just catchwords and catchphrases used to make people feel that they are in the right, and the "enemy" is wrong.

In reality, both concepts have taken a hit in recent years. Americans in many cases don't have rights anymore.

But of course, no one is calling Bush out on this...
 
Fresh Prince said:
Protip: Most people don't care as long as Iraq's are seen to elect a leader then it would up to that leader to make peace (America would play a role but the main emphasis would be on the Iraqi Government). America can ride out into the Sun Set.

Protip: The Iraq elections aren't even to elect a leader, that happens later down the road.
 

Saturnman

Banned
Burger said:
Every time I see your American president on the news, or in the news, he is constantly spouting on about how he will do all he can to ensure that America remains a bastion of Freedom and Liberty.

My question is, what is he talking about? As Americans, what do you interpret him to be talking about ?

It doesn't mean gay marriage or a lack of censorship from the FCC. :p
 

Triumph

Banned
Freedom is the warm feeling that George W. Bush inexplicably gets when another Iraqi dies. Liberty is the dollar signs in his eyes at every barrel of oil that comes out of Iraq.
 
Do you guys honestly believe the stuff you're posting in this thread? I mean, seriously, stop a moment and think about what you're writing and you'll realize how patently ridiculous it is. I think the Comintern was more conservative.
 

FightyF

Banned
In reality, both concepts have taken a hit in recent years. Americans in many cases don't have rights anymore.

Let's see you debate this GreenPanda.

Oh wait, judging from your avatar, you are a Bush supporter, which means concepts such as "facts" and "knowledge" are completely foreign to you...
 
Greenpanda said:
Do you guys honestly believe the stuff you're posting in this thread? I mean, seriously, stop a moment and think about what you're writing and you'll realize how patently ridiculous it is. I think the Comintern was more conservative.

which comments are ridiculous? i'd like you to point them out and give valid arguments as to why you think that's the case. *looks at avatar* cause this oughtta be fun.....
 
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