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[Fandangox]

I am Venezuelan and came to the U.S.

I made sure to learn English first, and I practiced enough to the point that I think to myself in English and writing in spanish feels weird haha.

As long as one learns the customs of the Country and more importantly their language and laws and manages to contribute to the economy in some way I feel that's a "successful" integration. On the topic of hanging out with the same social circles (i.e more Venezuelans) I don't really do that, although that's mostly cause I am a nerd and I just don't hang out much lol. I don't frown it, but I do agree that one should try to expand their social circles if just for the many different perspectives one could learn.

 

[iceatcs]

Don't you think that those community's aren't sharing advice and information on how to best do things in a foreign country? I fail to see how throwing them in the deep end is going to better them without a support network.

aye, must have a support network with a mixed community for the successful integration.

 

[SkyOdin]

This brings to mind an interesting figure that came up in a college intro to sociology class I took. My instructor was a black professor whose work centered around the racism and discrimination that black people have faced in the US. One interesting tidbit that he brought up was the difference in definition between what white people and black people considered an integrated neighborhood.

To white people, an integrated neighborhood was one where black people made up 10 to 15 percent of the population, in line with their overall percentage of the US population.

To black people, an integrated neighborhood was one that was half black people and half white people.

This reflects a fundamental divide between how white people and minorities view the concept of integration. To the dominant majority, integration means minorities knowing their place and not causing waves. To minorities, integration means equality.

This difference has huge implications for societies, thanks to the phenomenon of "white flight". If too many minorities start moving into a neighborhood, white people get spooked and start moving away. That 12% ideal white people is actually closer to number of minorities in an area that white people will tolerate before they right off the neighborhood as a "ghetto" and flee in terror. Before long, the neighborhood ends up becoming almost 100% minority as all the white people leave.

So, the concept of "integration" isn't so straight forward.

 

[Nere]

Have they been arrested? No? Did they pay their taxes and do their government shit? Yes?

Successfully integrated. I would certainly consider learning English to be an extremely high priority; I'd say assistance should be available and encouraged but I don't like adding requirements beyond what's actually necessary.

Would I like it if all migrants spoke english, absorbed American values and respected the constitution etc? Hell fuckin' yeah! But 26% of American citizens showed they have no respect for America or the constitution by voting for Trump so that's clearly not an actual requirement to live here, is it.

Why does everyone automatically think every thread is about the USA?

 

[Hyperactivity]

Quoting myself from another thread:

Speaking from the outside here, but it's always seemed ridiculous to expect complete and total assimilation.

Maybe it's the word itself, which reminds me of a hive mind or cult.

I've just never really found the version of integration brought up in these conversations as fair. The idea of a sub-community being formed that's integrated and accustomed to the culture of the host country? Yeah, that's appealing. But the way I see it described is as if immigrants should drop everything from their past and their culture to act just like the other residents of their new residence.

Ideally, integration should involve a degree of cultural exchange: the Indian-American community has many of its own unique attributes that distinguish it, but members going to India aren't suddenly up to date with everything there (this was a random example, I'm not sure how good it is). But conversations that I see come up seem to defend this pre-set notion of what being German or Dutch or Swedish or French should mean, when ideally that should be fluid. Tbh, I don't care for whatever pre-set definition of these cultures is.

The opposite of "assimilation" seems really dumb too. "Leave them alone" types of approaches, or putting immigrants in isolated communities, both seems extremely naive and lazy.

Integration should happen, but it will happen in a more welcoming and accepting environment that tries to mix things up. The existence of sub-cultures within a culture shouldn't really be frowned upon for not being like the rest of the culture. If anything, those sub-cultures can add variety and appeal to culture as a whole. Same with the act of new immigrants joining or moving into similar communities (newsflash: when you're in a strange new country you're going to be living in, you want a degree of familiarity in your surroundings both for practical purposes and homesickness). Ideally, if your country hasn't fucked up the integration and available interactions for these smaller communities, other members can act as a springboard into interacting more with the host country's culture.

But if the communities themselves are already isolated and withdrawn, then the solution needs to focus on fixing that, not trying to remove these communities entirely. That means not alienating them and not creating laws or an atmosphere that decreases the chances of interactions outside the community.

tl;dr

A. Assimilation is a terrible word to use there
B. Integration means the immigrants should get to keep or mix their previous culture, and the host culture takes some of the new one. It doesn't mean everyone that moved to France should suddenly act according to some definition of the french.

C. Sub-communities are good and can act as springboards for integration, but only if they're not isolated
D. Every time an isolated or discriminated community is alienated, it will just cause said community to be more withdrawn, and decreases chances of external interaction and integration.

EDIT: And no, cultural exchange doesn't and won't (for the paranoid ones of you out there) mean that everyone will be out wearing burqas and oppressing women, nor that that should be accepted. But if you're gonna act like everything in these immigrant cultures is reprehensible or backwards, that maybe voting far-right makes sense for you

 

[Linkark07]

Helping those people, giving them a hand whenever you can, guide them to be helpful in the community and trying to live peacefully and with respect to each other.

 

[Ishan]

Some bits of India actually . The Hindus and Muslims still keep at each other's throats like idiots but the culturally India is such a mix of influence from both . And also the british influence . America seemed on agood path under Obama but now well who knows what the hell will happen now .

 

[dreamcastmaster]

Why does everyone automatically think every thread is about the USA?

Gafs a predominantly American forum.

 

[ZoltanXerxes]

Living peacefully in my general area

This. Also getting a job and contributing, whatever the job maybe. I would love more doctors, or anyone with medical or education but it's totally up to them.

Edit: as an note, I should say I love different cultures. I think it's cool to learn how people around the world live and think so I would also say they have total religous and cultural freedom. The more cultures the better. That's one of the reasons why I love Canada.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Why does everyone automatically think every thread is about the USA?

Cause no one reads the OP.

 

[KillLaCam]

Be peaceful, make friends, teach people about your culture, learn about the local culture.

Basically the things that any human should want to do

 

[Kreed]

I'm from the UK and live in France. Not a million miles away but still different enough.

Learning the language, respecting my host countries customs and making an effort to fit in for me was the normal thing to do.

All immmigrants should respect their host countries principles, language and customs. It's THEM that should be making the effort. Not the locals. If can't do that, then fuck off to somewhere that you want to be.

"Living peacefully" =/= Being a outcast. To live peacefully with others, obviously that would require adapting to your new environment, local laws/etc..., and you respecting your neighbors and vice versa on a basic level where you can be at peace with everyone around you.

But this is also true if immigrants are "forming" and/or being "pushed" into "immigrant communities"/areas designated for immigrants where there is nothing but people like them around vs spreading them out in the general populous. Why would these immigrants adjust to a different culture if they are surrounded by nothing but people like them from where ever they came from?

 

[Knuckle Sandwich]

Just live here in peace.

I don't really give a shit if you learn English if you don't wanna but it makes things a lot easier if you do. The apartment complex I work at has mostly Mexican farm workers and we have english programs in the office on the weekends so I've seen people pick up the language and go on to get real good paying jobs.

 

[SkyOdin]

Why does everyone automatically think every thread is about the USA?

Cause no one reads the OP.

While the OP is European, nothing about the issue of integration nor the question posed by the OP is unique to Europe. The issue of absorbing immigrants with unfamiliar cultures is something remains an issue in the US. So I am surprised that you seem so taken aback that you are getting US perspectives on a question that is being asked to an audience that includes Americans.

 

[Faiz]

Living peacefully in your chosen area is a great way to put it. That's really the only requirement.

I do think it would only benefit everyone to learn at least some of the predominant language. I had a friend in high school whose family came from Poland. He spoke decent English, and always complained how his mother refused.

Don't interpret this as me thinking you should stop speaking your native tongue. I work with lots of people who speak spanish, Farsi, and Bengali with each other and I have no issues with that whatsoever.

 

[Kai Dracon]

You go somewhere, live there, and don't harm anyone.

A lot of hang-wringing over "integration" and "assimilation" is from people who are insecure about vague concepts such as "culture". "But what will happen to my CULTURE if these people who aren't like me take over?!"

Now, mind you, "don't harm anyone" includes not imposing on the fundamental rights of others where you go. If the "culture" you bring with you is incompatible with a particular human right, that is the extent to which you will have to integrate and adapt.

Past that, it's all relative. So-called culture becomes stronger with synthesis of ideas from many people and different origins. Cultures which attempt to stay "pure" by keeping all others out or demanding some kind of total assimilation become brittle and weak. And the people who defend them become weak-minded, fearful, and vulnerable to the worst of human behavior.

 

[Skellig Gra]

While the OP is European, nothing about the issue of integration nor the question posed by the OP is unique to Europe. The issue of absorbing immigrants with unfamiliar cultures is something remains an issue in the US. So I am surprised that you seem so taken aback that you are getting US perspectives on a question that is being asked to an audience that includes Americans.

It's certainly applicable but things like "they should learn English" don't really help a broader discussion.

 

[Ottaro]

Enclaves of people from an immigrant's home country can be a tremendous source of openness and support for an immigrant's transition to an unfamiliar place. They help each other navigate language barriers and the new legal system, they bond over a shared struggle, it allows people to maintain an emotional connection to their home cultural, etc. I would never tell a migrant to avoid living in enclaves of their own people.

Forced economic/cultural segregation is another thing, but if someone feels more comfortable moving into neighborhoods that remind them of home, more power to them.

Living peacefully in my general area

This is it.

Our customs and language ain't anything. Those evolve and morph so quickly anyways it's hard to get upset about someone not bothering with them. Just be a good human being that treats others as you would want to be treated and we'll be alright.

Living peacefully around others, being inclusive in the culture while sharing some of your own, learning the language and using it to communicate with your neighbors (Expecting others to adapt to you is where problems occur).

Groups that form culturally walled sections of the community are a huge problem. We've seen it in Central Illinois and in North Texas where a community of immigrants take over a whole sub division and don't interact or communicate with anyone outside of that sub division. They don't adapt or care to, they just form a pocket where they keep all their cultural customs, language and habits and avoid the outside world.

Sorry man but I have to call you out on this one. Where in north Texas are you referring to?

 

[Blueingreen]

What part of "living peacefully" don't you understand?

Living peacefully is common human decency it shouldn't even be a request, integration is a request and the key to a functional society.

If I was to migrate to Japan I would be expected to learn the language and adopt the customs as a BARE MINIMUM I would be considered extremely rude otherwise.

 

[Frozenprince]

Living peacefully in my general area

Man that sure was hard.

 

[Nester99]

Living peacefully in my general area

99% there, let me help just a tiny bit.

Living peacefully and lawfully in my general area

 

[EMT0]

99% there, let me help just a tiny bit.

Living peacefully and lawfully in my general area

Whooboy, I know where this one goes

 

[weepingangelz]

going to school with my kids and all our kids playing together; adults are the ones who fuck these things up.

 

[Shadynasty]

The Bosnian immigration to St. Louis to me is a great example of successful integration. Many of the older Bosnian's cannot speak english, but get by while their children are indistinguishable from an everyday American. They kept their culture while assimilating into ours nicely. I honestly couldn't imagine my city without them.

So while Slayven answer is 100% correct there is more to it than that obviously. A potential migrant community must be given every opportunity to thrive and in doing so will give way to living peacefully in the host nation.

 

[Sunster]

people have been moving around for 100's of thousands of years and culture has been changing constantly because of it. just be peaceful and have respect on both sides.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I'm from the UK and live in France. Not a million miles away but still different enough.

Learning the language, respecting my host countries customs and making an effort to fit in for me was the normal thing to do.

All immmigrants should respect their host countries principles, language and customs. It's THEM that should be making the effort. Not the locals. If can't do that, then fuck off to somewhere that you want to be.

What? I was born in Germany and I don't do half the shit you expect actual immigrants to do. Successful integration is accomplished when immigrants are indistinguishable from the native population in terms of employment, education, income, crime etc. Assimilating to their white overlords is certainly not part of it lmao get a grip.

 

[echoshifting]

I would say at least modest upward mobility across a period of three generations is probably the strongest indicator of successful integration

As long as you provide people with valuable opportunities for their children and the resources they need to get them there, all the other stuff people worry about seems to happen naturally, if not for the initial arrivals, certainly for their children and especially their children's children

 

[Toxi]

All immmigrants should respect their host countries principles, language and customs. It's THEM that should be making the effort. Not the locals. If can't do that, then fuck off to somewhere that you want to be.

This attitude is why so many people in the United States think learning a new language is beneath them. "Why can't everybody else just speak English?"

Son boludos.

 

[shintoki]

This attitude is why so many people in the United States think learning a new language is beneath them. "Why can't everybody else speak English?"

Son boludos.

I don't think the issue is not them learning English, but the US' refusal to incorporate a second language into the educational plan like every other school does. Cough, Spanish.

2nd is how few citizens leave the country and realize not everyone speaks English.

Having one desired language for the country isn't the issue, no different than why Windows become the go to PC system. It's easier and it does make sense. But the refusal to acknowledge other languages is the issue.

 

[Toxi]

I don't think the issue is not them learning English, but the US' refusal to incorporate a second language into the educational plan like every other school does. Cough, Spanish.

2nd is how few citizens leave the country and realize not everyone speaks English.

Having one desired language for the country isn't the issue, no different than why Windows become the go to PC system. It's easier and it does make sense. But the refusal to acknowledge other languages is the issue.

Beyond that, learning the language of immigrants means you can communicate with them easier. Which means you can interact with them easier. Which means they will integrate better.

The isolation of immigrants is not just because they have to switch to the local language. It's also because few of the locals are even bothering (or able) to talk to them during that process.

 

[hobozero]

Whooboy, I know where this one goes

So do I. Honor killings are OK in your country? That's illegal, don't do that here. Beating your spouse is OK in your culture? Against the law here, don't do it. Women can drive here; let them. Your country has different legal statuses for persons of different religions? Leave that shit at the border. You married a 12 year old back home? We are going to have issues when you move here.

"Lawfully" isn't a bad word. Generally speaking, a country's laws are a representation of what is deemed acceptable by it's culture. Culturally assimilating means at minimum abiding by the new country's laws.

It works the other way too. Want to have more than one kid? Go nuts. Want to leave your religion for another or (gasp) none? Fine, no one will stone you. We have bacon in abundance and you can call our Prime Minister a piece of shit TO HIS FACE and no one will imprison you. Because the law protects those rights.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Beyond that, learning the language of immigrants means you can communicate with them easier. Which means you can interact with them easier. Which means they will integrate better.

The isolation of immigrants is not just because they have to switch to the local language. It's also because few of the locals are even bothering to talk to them in that process.

You can communicate with them easier if they learn English. And it makes more sense for the country as a whole.

 

[APF]

Successful integration means behaving like people who were born here: not always speaking the same language, not always respecting American customs and traditions, not always following our laws or living peacefully...

 

[Toxi]

You can communicate with them easier if they learn English. And it makes more sense for the country as a whole.

If you've ever interacted with someone learning a language, it's far easier to communicate when both of you have some knowledge of the others' languages.

I'm not arguing that immigrants shouldn't try to learn English. I'm arguing we should also expect locals to at least try to learn languages besides English, because it makes integration more efficient (and it's just plain useful).

We're instead in a situation where Americans are proud of their own ignorance because nationalism.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

If you've ever interacted with someone learning a language, it's far easier to communicate when both of you have some knowledge of the others' languages.

I'm not arguing that immigrants shouldn't try to learn English. I'm arguing we should also expect locals to at least try to learn languages besides English, because it makes integration more efficient (and it's useful).

Well yeah, but it's pretty unrealistic to expect people to learn a dozen languages just so they can help new people from other countries conversate easier when they get here.

 

[Toxi]

Well yeah, but it's pretty unrealistic to expect people to learn a dozen languages just so they can help new people from other countries conversate easier when they get here.

I'm not expecting Americans to learn a dozen other languages. I'm expecting them to bother learning one.

People all over the world do that. Why can't we?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I'm not expecting Americans to learn a dozen other languages. I'm expecting them to bother learning one.

I mean, they try teaching Spanish in schools here, but I don't think anyone keeps up with it because there is so little necessity to use it because needing to speak Spanish as a means of communication is so rare.

 

[Damaniel]

The only thing I'd expect from a successfully integrated migrant is at least a basic level of conversational ability in the predominant language of the area. Lacking that ability is probably the single largest cause of being/feeling isolated in a new place. Someone shouldn't need to give up their culture, religion or customs unless they directly violate the law (and, just as importantly, natives of the country shouldn't try to preemptively modify the law to ban any of those things 'just because' without legitimately good cause).

 

[Victarion]

Basically grow blond hair, change your skin color to white and eye color to blue. Otherwise you are not integrated enough and your presence can be seen as threatening cause you don't look "normal".

 

[Megalosaro]

Living peacefully in my general area

Yup.

If they have employment and can find a place to live and aren't causing trouble, I'd consider that integration.

I don't really think they need to learn english. It wouldn't hurt and would certainly help them, but depending if they can survive without it, so be it. It's not like I need to talk to them. And they certainly don't need to talk to me.

 

[Geist-]

Living peacefully in my general area

Not much else to say.

 

[Zen Aku]

Living peacefully in my general area

Yup, as long as they are able to find a job that support them and living peacefully that's something I consider successful. We should want that for everyone.

 

[One Eyed Willy]

Living peacefully in my general area

This but add in obey the laws of the land (unless you meant that already).

 

[Messofanego]

What do we do about the British expats living in other countries who don't speak the local language? Nor bother to integrate with local customs?

 

[EMT0]

So do I. Honor killings are OK in your country? That's illegal, don't do that here. Beating your spouse is OK in your culture? Against the law here, don't do it. Women can drive here; let them. Your country has different legal statuses for persons of different religions? Leave that shit at the border. You married a 12 year old back home? We are going to have issues when you move here.

"Lawfully" isn't a bad word. Generally speaking, a country's laws are a representation of what is deemed acceptable by it's culture. Culturally assimilating means at minimum abiding by the new country's laws.

It works the other way too. Want to have more than one kid? Go nuts. Want to leave your religion for another or (gasp) none? Fine, no one will stone you. We have bacon in abundance and you can call our Prime Minister a piece of shit TO HIS FACE and no one will imprison you. Because the law protects those rights.

I'm not gonna debate that. In America, 'M-M-Muh Law' is the dogwhistle people use against undocumented immigrants, which is where I'm used to that always going.

 

[SkyOdin]

This but add in obey the laws of the land (unless you meant that already).

Where is all of this nervous hand-wringing about immigrants not obeying the law of the land come from? Native citizens don't necessarily obey the laws of the land. They are plenty of native US Citizens, British people, French people, etc. who are criminals and break laws. Does that mean those people are not integrated?

I find the idea of attaching the concept of law-abiding to integration to be somewhat troubling, since it seems to presume that by default immegrants are not law-abiding.In other words, it is built on the notion that all immigrants are criminals by default. Furthermore, it feels like judging the many for the crimes of the few. When one immigrant commits a crime or does something shocking, all immigrants take the blame for it.

 

[catbird]

I would just say to live peacefully and respectfully. I don't see much of a problem with migrants interacting socially with those from the same background; we all do it. Preferably, there will be cross-cultural interaction - but don't force it, just leave the lane open for use.

I guess I just find it more problematic when groups become large and powerful enough to infringe on the rights and well-being of another group. Examples could be gentrification in cities. Or, for a local example, the influx of Orthodox Jewish communities in Lakewood, NJ. In both scenarios there is nothing wrong in theory with the "outsider" groups moving in to new neighborhoods, it's just the un(?)intended damage done to the existing communities through entirely legal means. Does this make sense?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Living peacefully in my general area

That first post... Perfect.

 

[Peltz]

Living peacefully in my general area

 

[mrhyderager]

Living peacefully in my general area

Agreed. I think at least some understanding of the default language and customs should be involved, but honestly as long as we can live peacefully among one another that's what matters.

And honestly I think the language and customs thing is far more important for folks immigrating to countries other than the US. The US is supposed to be multicultural, multireligious (or, non-religious, depending on your POV), etc. If I'm moving to a country that primarily practices Buddhism, for example, I think it would behoove me to be respectful of that religion even if I don't practice it, and to be able to converse(or get my point across at least) with the citizens.