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What Is The Future of 3D Mario?
- Thread starter apana
- Start date
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Pretty much. In the context of platforming gameplay the Galaxy levels are unarguably superior. If you like the exploration and open-endedness of the 64 type levels then that's your opinion, but they're different beasts.Peru said:
To Far Away Times
Member
NTom64 said:
Wait, what?
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Nintendo really jumped the shark with Galaxy, but most people will be perfectly content with a more down-to-earth setting as long as the platforming and world-building is there. As a completely random example, Mario's Toy Box! Bowser has turned everybody into toys, now Mario must traverse Toy Land to save the land... again. The mindspace of "Toy Land" has just as many possible bizzare, fantastical worlds as Galaxy did, and that's just in terms of setting -- think of all the possible gameplay gimmicks "toys" brings to mind.thcsquad said:
I mean hell Super Mario 64 had Mario jumping into painting worlds that were less related to works of art than randomly jumbled environs so "how do you out-grandeur Galaxy" is a moot problem.
AceBandage
Banned
Epcott said:
That would make an awesome download.
Build your own levels and have a Mario AI try and run it.
Different color blocks make different obstacles.
RockmanWhore
Member
I preferred the Mario 64/Sunshine formula, I liked exploring levels, especially when the controls are so good. The Galaxy games are great, but I feel like it's such a waste to make such linear levels with so little to do. Anyway, I hope that they'll keep making 3D Mario games, linear or not. With the insolent success of the vastly inferior New Mario games, I'm a little worried 
AceBandage
Banned
RockmanWhore said:I preferred the Mario 64/Sunshine formula, I liked exploring levels, especially when the controls are so good. The Galaxy games are great, but I feel like it's such a waste to make such linear levels with so little to do. Anyway, I hope that they'll keep making 3D Mario games, linear or not. With the insolent success of the vastly inferior New Mario games, I'm a little worried
I wouldn't worry at all.
If Nintendo only made games that sold insanely well, we'd never see Metroid games, and we certainly wouldn't be getting a new Kid Icarus.
I am a huge fan of open-ended Worlds in Platformers,that's why Banjo-Tooie is my favorite Platformer,closely followed by the first Jak and Daxter.
However,I could find some advantages with linear levels-they are more action-orientated and fast-paced.However,there is nothing better for me then to explore a big level and to collect various things to advance,and discovering new paths.
The next Mario should have more explorable levels than linear levels (somewhat like SM64) and less like more linear levels than explorable ones (SMG).With Toad Town from the SMG intro as the hub and many parts of Mushroom Kingdom as the levels.However,I don't mind if the next game will be pretty linear again,it still will be a masterpiece.
However,I could find some advantages with linear levels-they are more action-orientated and fast-paced.However,there is nothing better for me then to explore a big level and to collect various things to advance,and discovering new paths.
The next Mario should have more explorable levels than linear levels (somewhat like SM64) and less like more linear levels than explorable ones (SMG).With Toad Town from the SMG intro as the hub and many parts of Mushroom Kingdom as the levels.However,I don't mind if the next game will be pretty linear again,it still will be a masterpiece.
Pizza Luigi
Member
Mario Epic Yarn 3DS
AceBandage
Banned
Pizza Luigi said:
Really only works as a one off, sadly.
Unless it was for a different genre.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
It's kind of unfortunate that the platformers fanbase has been split between those who like adventure-platformers and those who prefer action-platformers, because to add more characteristics of one type you really have to sacrifice a lot from the other. Hence you can't please everybody no matter what the next 3D Mario game is going to be.Myriadis said:
There hasn't really been a AAA adventure-platformer on consoles in a long time, so if you want me to make an arbitrary prediction what the next "Mario game" is going to be I guess it'd be nice if they went that direction?
abstract alien
Member
I said holy shitEpcott said:
To Far Away Times
Member
Super Mario Galaxy 3DS. Make it happen.
Cygnus X-1
Member
Peru said:
Yeah, that's true.
I think from now on it will be difficult to find really fresh new game mechanics. And let me add that I really want to see Galaxy 3 with 1080p resolution.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It seems like a content issue. If you had the time and resources to create a freeform explorable world in which every direction had challenges the quality of Galaxy...the problem is that if you allow the player to go wherever they want then you don't have the time to make sure that wherever they want to go is a tight fun experience.Cosmo Clock 21 said:
AceBandage
Banned
apana said:
Probably run better on it, actually.
RockmanWhore
Member
If it up to me, I'll do it this way Mario for the adventure/plateform and Donkey Kong for the
pure plateforming. I always thought that DKC feels pretty close to Crash Bandicoot and Mario Galaxy and that it would work great it 3D with this kind of linear level design. They tried the adventure genre with DK64 and it didn't worked that well.
pure plateforming. I always thought that DKC feels pretty close to Crash Bandicoot and Mario Galaxy and that it would work great it 3D with this kind of linear level design. They tried the adventure genre with DK64 and it didn't worked that well.
redbarchetta
Banned
The_Technomancer said:
The only thing unarguable are facts. It's very possible to prefer the platforming of Mario 64 to that of Galaxy, whether it's due to the pacing, its non-linear nature, or something else entirely. With that said, I do agree Galaxy is better from a pure platforming standpoint, but that isn't really saying much provided there was much more to the Mario 64 experience.
Ultimately, both are among my favorite games ever made.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I think people need to keep in mind that Nintendo doesn't usually make a series of linear sequels. They consider their games "evergreen" so that a new entry doesn't invalidate the value or sales potential of a previous entry.
Due to this, even Galaxy 2, while a more direct sequel to a game than they've made in years outside of Pokemon installments, mixes up its interface, formula, and progression system so that it's not a simple iterative update that obsoletes the previous game.
The upshot is that you shouldn't assume Galaxy is "the future" of 3D Mario. Nintendo will take design concepts and lessons learned and apply it to the next game but the theme of the next game won't be dictated by the Galaxy duology. (Galaxy 2 only happened because they had a massive overflow of design elements from Galaxy 1 ready to use.)
It'll be whatever they decide would balance interest and surprise by fans /at that point in time/. Not what people are feeling like today, arguing over Mario.
Personally, I like the Galaxy games because the "magical cosmos" theme resonates as being very Super Mario to me and not just random or disconnected. Mario has always had a whiff of that, starting with his association with power stars and magical fantasy elements. The Galaxy games just take Mario and have him go explore the skies around the planet the Mushroom Kingdom is on. Also, folks should bear in mind that the theme of the Galaxy series is that Bowser is trying to create his kingdom in space since he can't have it on the ground, so is ripping up and placing stuff from the familiar Mushroom Kingdom.
I'd like to see a 3D Mario with another setting, such as a better 3D look at the traditional Mario location, though not because I think Galaxy is "wrong". It's just its own thing and we've seen two games with it. If by some odd chance they do make a Galaxy 3 I'll withhold judgement until we see what spin they put on it.
Due to this, even Galaxy 2, while a more direct sequel to a game than they've made in years outside of Pokemon installments, mixes up its interface, formula, and progression system so that it's not a simple iterative update that obsoletes the previous game.
The upshot is that you shouldn't assume Galaxy is "the future" of 3D Mario. Nintendo will take design concepts and lessons learned and apply it to the next game but the theme of the next game won't be dictated by the Galaxy duology. (Galaxy 2 only happened because they had a massive overflow of design elements from Galaxy 1 ready to use.)
It'll be whatever they decide would balance interest and surprise by fans /at that point in time/. Not what people are feeling like today, arguing over Mario.
Personally, I like the Galaxy games because the "magical cosmos" theme resonates as being very Super Mario to me and not just random or disconnected. Mario has always had a whiff of that, starting with his association with power stars and magical fantasy elements. The Galaxy games just take Mario and have him go explore the skies around the planet the Mushroom Kingdom is on. Also, folks should bear in mind that the theme of the Galaxy series is that Bowser is trying to create his kingdom in space since he can't have it on the ground, so is ripping up and placing stuff from the familiar Mushroom Kingdom.
I'd like to see a 3D Mario with another setting, such as a better 3D look at the traditional Mario location, though not because I think Galaxy is "wrong". It's just its own thing and we've seen two games with it. If by some odd chance they do make a Galaxy 3 I'll withhold judgement until we see what spin they put on it.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
The issue with having both in a single game is that you'll get parts that fans of one type will absolutely hate. See this thread, and the polarization of opinions on the Secret levels in Sunshine and the open-world areas in Galaxy for examples.apana said:
CoffeeJanitor
Member
SM64 has not aged well. I would strongly advise those who are saying it's better than the Galaxies to go back and play it once more.
And I have no idea what is in store for Mario. Only Nintendo knows.
And I have no idea what is in store for Mario. Only Nintendo knows.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
redbarchetta said:
Some people are also arguing that Galaxy "inherently" has better platforming without considering that Galaxy 2 is the result of not just /three/ 3D Mario games, but /every 3D game Nintendo has made to date/. And every 3D platformer (and their mistakes) everyone else has made.
Mario 64 was almost the first game of its kind.
You can bet that if Nintendo had made Mario 64 today, after all that experience, it'd be far more refined (how could it not be?) at everything it tried to do.
I think Galaxy's theme is particularly /kind/ to making linear, abstract platforming and that's what a lot of people are latching onto; but I doubt its theme is a prerequisite to designing platforming on the level they achieved with it.
redbarchetta
Banned
Epcott said:
This is brilliant, and is something I had considered when writing the 3DS Target Shooting demo. It would be fantastic to have these bite-sized worlds that you had complete camera control over--able to position it any which way to better make a jump or sniff out secret treasures. I imagine something like this is entirely plausible, while giving you full control over Mario, independent of the camera.
That truly would be fantastic. Hopefully Nintendo capitalizes on ARG beyond the mere tech demos already displayed.
CoffeeJanitor said:
Although I completely disagree with you on SM64's aging (it's still very fun today), Nintendo is not about going back to previous games (when they do, they either remake the whole thing for a handheld, or just port it for anniversaries), but always bringing new stuff in.
No matter where Nintendo takes Mario, we can all expect that it's going to be good.
redbarchetta
Banned
CoffeeJanitor said:
I have and replay it frequently (once a year or so). Short of graphics (and to me, that's all part of the charm), it holds up perfectly fine, and is just as fun today as the day it was released, much as Super Mario Bros. still holds appeal.
Cosmo Clock 21
Banned
Then... don't make challenges the quality of Galaxy in your freeform platformer? I'd wager that making a good pure adventure platformer is a extremely daunting and difficult task for game designers.The_Technomancer said:
Rare did a pretty good job on that end with Banjo-Kazooie and DK64. Some people loved how new areas opened up in old worlds once you acquired a specific ability. I think the games were full of tedious backtracking bullshit. The first two Metroid Prime games skewed in this direction also, while Corruption took more of an action route. The change in focus caused a couple of people to wax philosophical about it on the internet, if you were around to witness that period in time.
Cosmo Clock 21 said:
Maybe "hate" is too strong a word. I think Mario 64 is the best 3D Mario game but I still absolutely love the Galaxy games. Taking the best worlds from both games sounds really appealing to me. Most people in this thread seem to at least like both types even if they favor one over the other.
Banjo-Tooie is a marvel of level design. Just how huge and interesting the worlds are, no matter how many times you explore them, you always find a nook and cranny you didn't know was there.
Same with DK64. The main problem with those games were that they were simply too big to hold people's attention, but that's what makes them so impressive to me.
Same with DK64. The main problem with those games were that they were simply too big to hold people's attention, but that's what makes them so impressive to me.
abstract alien
Member
I think Mario 64 has aged incredibly well, especially for a 3D game. The controls are still better than 90% of what's on the market today even.
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
it's better than whatever you imagine.
Setvan2734
Member
makingmusic476
Member
Put me in the SM64 > SMG camp. I like the more open-ended nature of SM64. It was more adventure-y. Within the castle there'd be toads to chat with all over the place and lots of hidden stars to find. You could access most of an entire level on your first playthrough, and could often get the stars out of order - intentionally or by accident. Each level allowed quite a bit of exploration, and often required exploration to track down each star.
Galaxy was a far more linear experience. It was simply a matter of selecting a galaxy and selecting the next star. Each star was set at the end of a streamlined obstacle course, and the course would often change considerably with each star you selected, despite being in the same "galaxy" as a previous star. The levels never felt complete quite like SM64.
They had the platforming nailed to a T, and in that area the game is much better than SM64 (as it should be, it came out 14 years later!), but the overarching design of the game wasn't as enjoyable, imo.
Honestly, I'd like to see a Sunshine 2. Return to Isle Delfino or another similar island, but nix the Fludd Pack and throw in SMG's controls. Incorporate Yoshi a bit more, but make Yoshi easier to get. Maybe have them wandering around or something. Aside from that, focus on making awesome SM64/SMS-ish open-ended levels.
Maybe something like Yoshi's Island 3D + Super Mario Sunshine, incorporating everything learned in Galaxy 1/2 while adding whatever new and awesome gameplay elements they can come up with.
Galaxy was a far more linear experience. It was simply a matter of selecting a galaxy and selecting the next star. Each star was set at the end of a streamlined obstacle course, and the course would often change considerably with each star you selected, despite being in the same "galaxy" as a previous star. The levels never felt complete quite like SM64.
They had the platforming nailed to a T, and in that area the game is much better than SM64 (as it should be, it came out 14 years later!), but the overarching design of the game wasn't as enjoyable, imo.
Honestly, I'd like to see a Sunshine 2. Return to Isle Delfino or another similar island, but nix the Fludd Pack and throw in SMG's controls. Incorporate Yoshi a bit more, but make Yoshi easier to get. Maybe have them wandering around or something. Aside from that, focus on making awesome SM64/SMS-ish open-ended levels.
Maybe something like Yoshi's Island 3D + Super Mario Sunshine, incorporating everything learned in Galaxy 1/2 while adding whatever new and awesome gameplay elements they can come up with.