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[gkryhewy]

So who's actually getting an improved picture with component cables and who isn't?

My friend just picked some up and says he's getting a "fuzzy" image

I get an improved picture in games, but I noticed right away that the menus became 'fuzzier' at 480p as opposed to when my TV was doing the deinterlacing.

 

[psy18]

Eh? RE4 is pretty much the single most dithered game on the Cube. Truly awful image quality.

Eh?

Notice the dithering from the lighting around her head etc. .. This is another game that actually looked much nicer in 480i because of this issue.

Whoa. Never realized it was that bad. Maybe I'll post screens from my 29" Sony EDTV for comparison when I have time later. (maybe at weekend)

 

[dark10x]

Eh?

The game is incredibly dithered, runs in fake widescreen (meaning that you have to blow it up on a 16:9 display), and has somewhat ragged edges. It's a very dirty looking game.

The actual content on screen looks incredible most of the time, but the actual image quality is really quite terrible. It's akin to viewing something beautiful through a dirty screen door.

 

[deepred]

Keep a SDTV for Wii as Nintendo may say. :lol I chuckled when people at work bothered to hook up the Wii devkits to our plasma thinking it'd look nicer.

TRUTH.

 

[psy18]

The game is incredibly dithered, runs in fake widescreen (meaning that you have to blow it up on a 16:9 display), and has somewhat ragged edges. It's a very dirty looking game.

The actual content on screen looks incredible most of the time, but the actual image quality is really quite terrible. It's akin to viewing something beautiful through a dirty screen door.

Did you run it on LCD/Plasma?

 

[dark10x]

Are you running it on LCD/Plasma?

I've played it on a Sony HD CRT and my old plasma (haven't tried it on my current plasma). I've seen it running on an LCD as well.

Regardless of which display you use, the image quality is significantly worse than your average Gamecube title. As I said, it's dithered (common on GC), but the fake wide screen requires you to zoom the image (which, of course, blows up the pixels).

I'm unable to understand your shock here. I suppose if you play it on a 27" 4:3 SDTV it would look just as nice as any other Cube title, though...

 

[LCGeek]

This IQ issue I learned is from developers stretching out the framebuffer abilities. Only way it goes away is if developers start using better forms of IQ the system allows.

 

[psy18]

I've played it on a Sony HD CRT and my old plasma (haven't tried it on my current plasma). I've seen it running on an LCD as well.

Regardless of which display you use, the image quality is significantly worse than your average Gamecube title. As I said, it's dithered (common on GC), but the fake wide screen requires you to zoom the image (which, of course, blows up the pixels).

I'm unable to understand your shock here. I suppose if you play it on a 27" 4:3 SDTV it would look just as nice as any other Cube title, though...

I used 29" Sony EDTV Tube. Played it on 480p. I'll take a real good look this weekend.

 

[dark10x]

I used 29" Sony EDTV Tube. Played it on 480p. I'll take a real good look this weekend.

Perhaps we have different standards or something. It was grainy, blurry, and filled with ugly pink/green color gradients in dark areas on each display. Much worse than your average Cube title.

 

[JRW]

Eh? RE4 is pretty much the single most dithered game on the Cube. Truly awful image quality.

Really? I didnt notice any dithering , banding perhaps? Ill have to fire it up later and get back to you.

 

[dark10x]

Really? I didnt notice any dithering , banding perhaps? Ill have to fire it up later and get back to you.

It has problems with both.

I can't imagine how anyone could NOT notice it. From the very first area, it's like a slap in the face.

As I said, if you are using a small SDTV or something, you may not notice it, but on a GC with component in 480p (using an HDTV), it's awful.

 

[LCGeek]

The banding in that game was my first noticeable gripe, so much so that I stopped stretching the game on my GDM-FW900 and just left it at it's natural aspect ratio.

 

[JRW]

It has problems with both.

I can't imagine how anyone could NOT notice it. From the very first area, it's like a slap in the face.

As I said, if you are using a small SDTV or something, you may not notice it, but on a GC with component in 480p (using an HDTV), it's awful.

Hrm well I played about 20 minutes into RE4 on Wii and didnt notice any dithering via 480P, I did see some minor vertical lines here and there but its NOTHING like the nasty dithering you see in Zelda TP / Eternal Darkness

Heres a few pics I took via 480P / Component cables (sorry they're not the best quality) I chose areas that I know would dither in Zelda & Eternal Darkness (Smoke effects / Light shining through windows etc.)

Perhaps your idea of "dithering" is differant.

 

[Naked Snake]

I love this shot, awesome looking wall texture. Such a great looking game (some technical issues aside).

I think the PS2 version of RE4 doesn't have the dithering issues, but it still looks inferior to the GC version IMO.

 

[dark10x]

Your snapshots do a fantastic job hiding it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there (and oh boy, is it bad). I'll snap some pics later (both from another Sony CRT and a plasma) if you'd like. Right from the very first area, the game is extremely grainy.

 

[JRW]

Your snapshots do a fantastic job hiding it, but that doesn't mean it isn't there (and oh boy, is it bad). I'll snap some pics later (both from another Sony CRT and a plasma) if you'd like. Right from the very first area, the game is extremely grainy.

Hrm im not seeing it , in person the picture is 5x cleaner than my snapshots and I dont see any dithering (shrug). I dont think you're realising what dithering actually is.

 

[plagiarize]

as i recall it's most apparent on the rolling fog in RE4, which i actually like. it's much nicer than the fog in the ps2 version even if it is dithered and is some of the best looking fog of last gen. really atmospheric.

no question about the fact that you're using zoom to fill the screen on a widescreen set though. if you compare the iq of re4 to f zero running in widescreen... well there isn't any comparison. not close.

JRW check out the fog in the grave yard. i remember it being pretty noticeable there

edit: not sure what IGN used to capture this, but you can see dithering really clearly on the streams of light coming into the room.

 

[big_z]

Hrm well I played about 20 minutes into RE4 on Wii and didnt notice any dithering via 480P, I did see some minor vertical lines here and there but its NOTHING like the nasty dithering you see in Zelda TP / Eternal Darkness

Zelda has the scanline effect and so does RE4. Only difference is that the line in RE4 are verticle like the picture above.

Im guessing these games were too much for the poor cube and so when nintendo ported TP to wii they didn't bother to fix the dithering. It's too bad too because the game would look tons better with a little AA and no dithering.

 

[dark10x]

Hrm im not seeing it , in person the picture is 5x cleaner than my snapshots and I dont see any dithering (shrug). I dont think you're realising what dithering actually is.

Of course I know what dithering is. What do you take me for?

That ED shot posted earlier demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about and it is highly visible throughout RE4.

I think the issue here is that you are using your television as the SOLE reference point. Larger HDTVs (though it's plenty bad on smaller Sony HDTV as well) really exentuate the dithering.

With as long as this argument has been going, it's starting to sound as if I am bashing the visuals in RE4...but I most certainly am not. The game still looks fantastic. I'm just surprised that you are unable to notice such an obvious flaw.

 

[Boerseun]

You really think GC had better graphics then Xbox?

Only multi platform game that does is BG&E

GC could match XBox in real world terms, but games had to specifically written for the GC's architecture in order to take advantage of its power. Xbox could outperform it in multi-platform titles simply because of its PC-centric architecture forming an easy base from which these games could be programmed and then ported to other platforms. In other words, it formed the primary development platform, and the primary platform usually gets the version of the game that is technically more impressive.

In my opinion, the GC versions of many multi-format games are preferable over the Xbox versions simply because of the GC's brilliant controller. While some titles like Beyond Good and Evil and Sphinx and the Cursed Mummy are much more impressive on GC all around. (Though neither title had earth shattering graphics.)

 

[Boerseun]

Zelda has the scanline effect and so does RE4. Only difference is that the line in RE4 are verticle like the picture above.

That's not dithering either.

Dithering will always be in the form of "dots".

See any number of N64 games running through S-video for an example. Or for that matter, if you have any late '90s 3D-accelerated PC games, you could switch them between 16-bit and 8-bit colour (or from 3D accelerated to software 3D mode). The effect should be immediately visible.

 

[big_z]

That's not dithering either.

Dithering will always be in the form of "dots".

See any number of N64 games running through S-video for an example. Or for that matter, if you have any late '90s 3D-accelerated PC games, you could switch them between 16-bit and 8-bit colour (or from 3D accelerated to software 3D mode). The effect should be immediately visible.

i know but when you see those scan lines it has to be some sort of dithering like effect to improve system performance. either way it sucks that they're there.

hopefully nintendo leaves the days of dithering/scanlines behind.

 

[JRW]

Of course I know what dithering is. What do you take me for?

That ED shot posted earlier demonstrates exactly what I'm talking about and it is highly visible throughout RE4.

I think the issue here is that you are using your television as the SOLE reference point. Larger HDTVs (though it's plenty bad on smaller Sony HDTV as well) really exentuate the dithering.

With as long as this argument has been going, it's starting to sound as if I am bashing the visuals in RE4...but I most certainly am not. The game still looks fantastic. I'm just surprised that you are unable to notice such an obvious flaw.

I can see it clearly in the IGN shot above and thats actualy the effect I was describing in my previous post (when I mentioned "some vertical lines") but for some reason this effect is hardly noticable on my hdtv (Sony 34XBR960), Yet the dithering in Zelda sticks out like a sore thumb even if im sitting 5+ feet away to the point I switched it to 480i mode just to get rid of it.

 

[VultureDude]

as i recall it's most apparent on the rolling fog in RE4, which i actually like. it's much nicer than the fog in the ps2 version even if it is dithered and is some of the best looking fog of last gen. really atmospheric.

no question about the fact that you're using zoom to fill the screen on a widescreen set though. if you compare the iq of re4 to f zero running in widescreen... well there isn't any comparison. not close.

JRW check out the fog in the grave yard. i remember it being pretty noticeable there

edit: not sure what IGN used to capture this, but you can see dithering really clearly on the streams of light coming into the room.

it's simple, you never actually see dithering that bad when the game is in motion

i never even knew what dithering was before this thread, so i went the entire gamecube generation without noticing it enough to have it impact my gaming experience.

 

[plagiarize]

it's simple, you never actually see dithering that bad when the game is in motion

i never even knew what dithering was before this thread, so i went the entire gamecube generation without noticing it enough to have it impact my gaming experience.

it's my favourite game ever, and i think one of the most graphically impressive games of last gen, but if we're just talking image quality, i have to agree with dark10x here. f-zero gx stomps re4 to a bloody pulp when it comes to IQ.

 

[usea]

640x480 is not 'fake' widescreen, it is just widescreen with rectantular pixels. Pixels do not have to be perfectly square and many graphic modes on many devices use non-square pixels.

Would it be nice if the Wii games output in 720x480, 852x480, or any other higher resolution? Sure, it would be nice.

I only have a casual understanding of what goes on behind the scenes with display hardware, but when I take screen grabs from my wii, they're always 720x480 regardless of widescreen settings on the wii or my display devices. Is this just a result of the way the software I'm using displays the video, or is it really displaying that resolution?

 

[psy18]

OK, I've tried Eternal Darkness, RE4.
Didn't notice any dithering at all.... wait, let me take a closer look... ah yes... there is some... My eyes are about 50-75 cm from the 29" TV (too close).... It's still not as bad as the screen posted here... Damn crappy camera... can't take pictures... oh well, back to zelda... aaaahhh.... beautiful.

 

[Surfheart]

SO, I picked up Red Steel from EB last night (I know, what was I thinking)

The image quality in this game is terrible. Similair to the Wii interface and Zelda on my PAL system, and identical to that screen shot up there of RE4, I get those horrible vertical lines, except they seem to be 10x more obvious.

I mean WTF Nintendo, it's preset in even your bloody frontend? Im fine with SD resolutions, alot of cube games on my setup look perfectly fine, what I'm not fine with are these artifacts.

I paid $100 AUD less than a new 360 for my Wii, which is not alot, and not only am I limited to SD resolutions, I have to put up with shitty looking Image quality.

On the other hand, supermonkeyball looks flawless, possibly some aa?, some nice depth of field and none of the colourdepth artifacts


I hope this is a launch game issue.. its very dissapointing

 

[omaremad]

Dithering is heaven compared to banding, i would rather have dithering any day.

See horrible banding patterns on red steel's doors, and other shiny objects.

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

Personally, I've found the Wii IQ to be about the same as GC... although it's possible that the fact that the component cables no longer have a DAC chip might be culprit...

Honestly though, I compared my GC and Wii running GC games at the same time (in 480p), and Wii is rendering them the same as far as I can see.

480p sure makes a hell of a difference though. I'm glad my console and cables arrived at the same time. I shudder to think of what the things would have looked like in composite.

Ewwwwwwwwwwww.

The difference from merely enabling 480p is incredible. The Wii Menu alone will make even the least IQ knowledgable do a double take once your TV flips over to 480p.

Great cables, just like GC.

This from someone who supposedly can't tell the different between 360/PS3 and last-gen?

 

[Pud]

This from someone who supposedly can't tell the different between 360/PS3 and last-gen?

There is a large difference between "image quality" and the amount of polys/effects/pixels on the screen. And she's right.

 

[My Arms Your Hearse]

There is a large difference between "image quality" and the amount of polys/effects/pixels on the screen. And she's right.

Well, you'd imagine that if going to 480p makes such an astounding difference, 720p would be even better! Though there might have been some disclaimer about "besides improved resolution" or something, I don't really remember. The comments just kind of surprised me.

(and right about what? The component cables make a difference? Definitely. Or that there isn't much difference between this and last gen graphically? Definitely no )

 

[tetsuoxb]

My Wii is developing a sparkling problem. It is not drawing pixels correctly and otherwise making things look like ass with a weird shimmering effect. At first I thought the LCD controller in my TV was going on the fritz (has happened before) but all other inputs and resolutions are not experiencing this shimmering. I'm going to take the wii with me on vacation and try it on a different tv, but I suspect this one is headed to warranty repair sooner rather than later.

Forgot to mention - I am using component cables.

 

[Tchu-Espresso]

This from someone who supposedly can't tell the different between 360/PS3 and last-gen?

Exactly. Its bullshit.

Its far easier to notice a generational leap in graphics than it is noticing the difference between 480i/p.

But it is coming from the same uncoordinated person who cant play wii zelda so yeah.

 

[the thoroughbred]

I always thought jaggies was to do with the quality off the interlacer on the TV. My TV is really bad, its not HD and so only displays 576i, equivalent to american 480i, If I am not wrong Europe or definately UK is 576i. But I get a very jagged picture on E4 and only on E4 and some of the film channels. But I can't figure out why. It doesn't happen on anything else. I was playing TP on a 4:3m Sony around 17 years old TV, and it looked very good. I didn't realize the whole non widescreen issue, I forgot to mention its a GC version. Now I am playing it on a 6 year old widescreen and yeah it looks better in 4:3. The stretch ain't worth it. But it just doesn't look that good. I don't know why, and its 100hz tv whereas the sony is 50 hz.

 

[dark10x]

There is a large difference between "image quality" and the amount of polys/effects/pixels on the screen. And she's right.

No, that's not true at all.

The difference between 480i and 480p is so incredibly minute that only the worst TVs actually demonstrate a difference.

I'm actually pretty surprised too.

 

[nightez]

You really think GC had better graphics then Xbox?

Only multi platform game that does is BG&E

And Metal Arms which was an Xbox game.

 

[lyre]

Exactly. Its bullshit.

Its far easier to notice a generational leap in graphics than it is noticing the difference between 480i/p.

But it is coming from the same uncoordinated person who cant play wii zelda so yeah.

Let's not restart this bullshit again. In the end, image quality has nothing to do with hardware or even resolution. Afterall the original grey brick GameBoy has better image quality than the PS2 hooked up with anything that's not component cables. Whereas seeing 'next gen graphics' is still purely opinion. If something just looks like last gen graphics but in HD with bigger brighter explosions and nothing else, that's their problem.

Spoiler

And the GCN version is the superiour version in the end. 8.9!!

No, that's not true at all.

The difference between 480i and 480p is so incredibly minute that only the worst TVs actually demonstrate a difference.

I'm actually pretty surprised too.

I noticed quite a difference between the two resolutions on a 34" Panasonic Tau CRT running some GC games, and I don't think that's considered to be one that falls in line with 'worst TVs'.

Edit: why the eff aremy last lines spoilered when it's not!??!

 

[nightez]

Hrm well I played about 20 minutes into RE4 on Wii and didnt notice any dithering via 480P, I did see some minor vertical lines here and there but its NOTHING like the nasty dithering you see in Zelda TP / Eternal Darkness

Heres a few pics I took via 480P / Component cables (sorry they're not the best quality) I chose areas that I know would dither in Zelda & Eternal Darkness (Smoke effects / Light shining through windows etc.)

Perhaps your idea of "dithering" is differant.

Damn looks a generation beyond all the Wii launch titles. Does it run better on Wii?

 

[dark10x]

I noticed quite a difference between the two resolutions on a 34" Panasonic Tau CRT running some GC games, and I don't think that's considered to be one that falls in line with 'worst TVs'.

Funny you say that...

I had a Panasonic Tau 27" HD CRT a while back, and did a HORRIBLE job with 480i. There was a massive difference between 480i and 480p with that set.

I've since upgraded to a Sony CRT (back room) and a Pioneer plasma (living room). Both do an excellent job with 480i leaving virtually no difference between 480i and 480p (sometimes tipping it in favor of 480i due to the extra processing).

That Panasonic wasn't a bad TV, but its internal scaler was GARBAGE.

I think Dragona is now using a Sony CRT, however, and I honestly don't know how anyone could suggest that there is a HUGE difference between 480i and 480p while not seeing a difference between last generation consoles and 360/PS3 (which is a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH larger difference - and I'm talking about both visual content AND image quality). It's baffling.

 

[lyre]

I'm not a tv expert, hell I don't even do my proper share of home console gaming nowadays but having a crappy internal scaler explains that part.

And I don't really see the jump either. I was watching a kiosk of the Motorsport or whatever PS3 racing game it was and it wasn't something that jumped out at me. Am I bitter and/or jaded? Maybe but I don't really see a ZOMG makes last gen horribly inferiour graphics wise that the PS2 (eventually) did to PS1. Maybe in a few years I'll notice it but right now, I don't.

 

[Alex]

Oh good, I'm so glad Dark said that. I can't tell much of a different in the picture quality, if any, on my new HD set between 480i and 480p I thought I was going crazy.

So um, if there's so little difference, why is there all the clamoring for it?

 

[shpankey]

Reading these threads make me so happy to know that I'm not a graphix whore.

being a graphics whore and caring about image quality are not the same. one can care about the latter and not the former.

 

[gkryhewy]

So um, if there's so little difference, why is there all the clamoring for it?

Isn't it true that for 60 FPS games, you really do get twice the picture information at 480p? There's only so much that a deinterlacer can do, right? Otherwise why would anyone bother with progressive scan DVD players?

 

[LCGeek]

I honestly don't know how anyone could suggest that there is a HUGE difference between 480i and 480p while not seeing a difference between last generation consoles and 360/PS3 (which is a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH larger difference - and I'm talking about both visual content AND image quality). It's baffling.

Some of the posts in this thread easily show why someone could make the suggestion. IQ or texturing filtering is not the same improving on shaders, polygons or type of effects in game. Most people can't spot or tell the difference between lighting, bump mapping, or shadowing techniques. Though something like filtering or color depth is much more noticeable if you can easily change between various levels. My friend faf is exactly someone like you're describing and most people I know not into graphics like I am pretty much are the same.

 

[Alex]

Anyone who cant notice the beyond staggering difference between last gen and this gen has to be borderline blind. I have no idea what any of the terminology means, I just got my HD set a month ago, but the difference is psychotic.

 

[dark10x]

Isn't it true that for 60 FPS games, you really do get twice the picture information at 480p? There's only so much that a deinterlacer can do, right? Otherwise why would anyone bother with progressive scan DVD players?

Yes, it's true, 60 fps material will suffer a bit...but much less so than you'd think (to the point that, once again, you won't be able to detect a difference).

Progressive scan DVD players only exist to aid lower quality televisions (or those with poor processing). My TV decimates pretty much any 480p progressive DVD player on the market (with only the ultra high end units offering potentially more).

Some of the posts in this thread easily show why someone could make the suggestion.

No, flat out, no. On a good television, people simply won't be able to notice a difference between 480i and 480p. Any difference that could be observed will be so incredibly minor next to 720p rendering.

 

[Demigod Mac]

Depends on your TV, really. If your TV has a good de-interlacer built in, 480i and 480p will look very similar.

if your TV has a poor de-interlacer or none at all, 480p will look much better.

 

[JRW]

Damn looks a generation beyond all the Wii launch titles. Does it run better on Wii?

Yea RE4 is a fantastic looking game , It doesnt run or look any better on Wii but it already ran great on Cube. I believe PS2s version had random framerate issues.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

This from someone who supposedly can't tell the different between 360/PS3 and last-gen?

Image Quality is something entirely different to graphics themselves. I can certainly notice the extra resolution -- there's nothing strange about that.

As for the 480p bit, there is a staggering difference in the menu of the Wii alone when you've just enabled 480p. Much clearer.