What is wrong with the IQ on Wii?

Bebpo

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This isn't meant to troll the system (PS2/GC/Xbox games still look great in 480), but rather a tech question for those who know more about this stuff like Dark10x.

For some reason, almost all the games I've played on Wii have terrible Image Quality/Picture Quality. The most obvious issue is that many of the games (Zelda, Excite Truck for instance) look like they have extreme dithering aka. the PSP. Now I've never really seen dithering on consoles so this strikes me as very strange. IIRC dithering is caused by using a (24?) color pallete? Is Wii running at a lower color pallete than GC? That makes no sense to me.

The other problem I'm seeing is that the games are all extremely jaggy. Rayman, Zelda, Excite Truck, etc...they're jaggy to the level of launch PS2 titles. Considering that of the three systems last gen, GC had the best IQ with great colors, smooth textures, and an overall pleasing picture...what the hell is happening?

While the games themselves have fairly good looking art-wise, and Zelda matches up to something like FFXII, because of the really bad IQ the games just come off as PS2 launch-era ish and nothing I've played on Wii is pleasing on the eye.

I'm using component cables at 480p and in 480i the dithering seems less noticable, but the jaggies seem about the same or worse. TV-wise I'm using a CRT HDTV so the 480 image is not being scaled or tampered with.

I mean if this is a Wii output problem and not a software issue, does that mean that Zelda GC will have great IQ with no jaggies or dithering? That would be a huge deal to me and I'd rather just stop where I am and wait for that version.

So what is wrong with the IQ on the Wii? Why do none of the games look like the screenshots?
 

Dragona Akehi

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Personally, I've found the Wii IQ to be about the same as GC... although it's possible that the fact that the component cables no longer have a DAC chip might be culprit...

Honestly though, I compared my GC and Wii running GC games at the same time (in 480p), and Wii is rendering them the same as far as I can see.

480p sure makes a hell of a difference though. I'm glad my console and cables arrived at the same time. I shudder to think of what the things would have looked like in composite.
 

SantaC

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krypt0nian said:
God, I was hoping it was because of my composite cables.

=(
it will still improve with component. The color bleeding with composite is just awful.


this is dithering.

 

Xdrive05

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It looks no different than the Gamecube and Xbox on my set. Usually dithering is a game-specific issue, like with the Gamecube. Twilight Princess has dithering in 480p but it's not nearly as bad as the dithering in Wind Waker @ 480p. Go to Dragon Roost island in WW sometime and check out how horrible the dithering is with the fog effects. You can tell Nintendo had cleaned them up some for TP.

Only other game I have is Wii Sports, and there's no dithering at all for me. In fact, Wii has the best IQ by far (considering the three last gen systems). (again, on my set - which has a rather crappy scaler)
 

Methodis

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SantaC said:
it will still improve with component. The color bleeding with composite is just awful.


this is dithering.


Ohhh i've seen that in PSP games and Okami...although in Okami it's intentional right?
 

Stinkles

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Dragona Akehi said:
I shudder to think of what the things would have looked like in composite.

it looks like OOT through a dirty fishtank.

Thanks god my cables are coming.
 

Dragona Akehi

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Stinkles said:
it looks like OOT through a dirty fishtank.

Thanks god my cables are coming.
Ewwwwwwwwwwww.

The difference from merely enabling 480p is incredible. The Wii Menu alone will make even the least IQ knowledgable do a double take once your TV flips over to 480p.

Great cables, just like GC.
 

Bebpo

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Az987 said:
You really think GC had better graphics then Xbox?

Only multi platform game that does is BG&E
Not graphics, image quality. Xbox may have been pushing more polygons and better textures, but GC games had a nicer image IMO.
 

FightyF

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Bebpo said:
Not graphics, image quality. Xbox may have been pushing more polygons and better textures, but GC games had a nicer image IMO.
Even with component on the Xbox the colors weren't as vibrant. And looked extra blurry on composite.

Nintendo has had a tradition of allowing you to use your older A/V cables with your newer console...is this true with the Wii? Ie. If I had GC component cables, could I use them for the Wii?
 

nightez

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Az987 said:
You really think GC had better graphics then Xbox?

Only multi platform game that does is BG&E
Metal Arms, which is an Xbox game ran better on Gamecube.



...
 

Angelcurio

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Stinkles said:
it looks like OOT through a dirty fishtank.

Thanks god my cables are coming.
Could you or someone post a comparison screenshots?

My tv only have composite inputs and since in the last days i have heard lots of times how big the difference is between component and composite i would really like to see it, since that would make me get a new tv before the end of the year.
 

Warm Machine

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nightez said:
Metal Arms, which is an Xbox game ran better on Gamecube.



...
Didn't the developers actually get on a forum and say that the Xbox version is better due to higher frame rate and better textures. The only negative I know of with the Xbox one is that there is minor screen tearing.
 

RuGalz

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Bebpo said:
This isn't meant to troll the system (PS2/GC/Xbox games still look great in 480), but rather a tech question for those who know more about this stuff like Dark10x.

For some reason, almost all the games I've played on Wii have terrible Image Quality/Picture Quality. The most obvious issue is that many of the games (Zelda, Excite Truck for instance) look like they have extreme dithering aka. the PSP. Now I've never really seen dithering on consoles so this strikes me as very strange. IIRC dithering is caused by using a (24?) color pallete? Is Wii running at a lower color pallete than GC? That makes no sense to me.

The other problem I'm seeing is that the games are all extremely jaggy. Rayman, Zelda, Excite Truck, etc...they're jaggy to the level of launch PS2 titles. Considering that of the three systems last gen, GC had the best IQ with great colors, smooth textures, and an overall pleasing picture...what the hell is happening?

While the games themselves have fairly good looking art-wise, and Zelda matches up to something like FFXII, because of the really bad IQ the games just come off as PS2 launch-era ish and nothing I've played on Wii is pleasing on the eye.

I'm using component cables at 480p and in 480i the dithering seems less noticable, but the jaggies seem about the same or worse. TV-wise I'm using a CRT HDTV so the 480 image is not being scaled or tampered with.

I mean if this is a Wii output problem and not a software issue, does that mean that Zelda GC will have great IQ with no jaggies or dithering? That would be a huge deal to me and I'd rather just stop where I am and wait for that version.

So what is wrong with the IQ on the Wii? Why do none of the games look like the screenshots?
Games might be using 16 bit frame buffer for performance reason and/or the need to support 480p/576p + widescreen with just 3M of vram...
 

papercut

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I've been playing Zelda with composite 'cause I can't find component cables anywhere, but so far it looks pretty good. I miss the component-y look of my GC games but I was surprised by how decent the Wii games look using composite.

And I don't have the patience to avoid Zelda until component cables are back in stock.
 

Durante

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It's just because Nintendo was so f'ing cheap that developers still chose to use a "high" color framebuffer. In 2006! We already suspected as much at Beyond3D when the first Mario Galaxy shots appeared and showed very obvious dithering on some flame effects. Component cables won't fix Nintendo's blatant disregard for any advancement in the art of 3D rendering in the past 5 years, I fear.
 

Bebpo

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Durante said:
It's just because Nintendo was so f'ing cheap that developers still chose to use a "high" color framebuffer. In 2006! We already suspected as much at Beyond3D when the first Mario Galaxy shots appeared and showed very obvious dithering on some flame effects. Component cables won't fix Nintendo's blatant disregard for any advancement in the art of 3D rendering in the past 5 years, I fear.
ah. Thanks for the info. It's too bad as it really hurts the look of the games IMO :\
 

Y2Kev

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Stinkles said:
it looks like OOT through a dirty fishtank.

Thanks god my cables are coming.
It seriously does. :lol

I'm at my parents' house and it looks a lot like OOT. Very peculiarly like OOT.
 

RuGalz

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Bebpo said:
It's too bad as it really hurts the look of the games IMO :\
Keep a SDTV for Wii as Nintendo may say. :lol I chuckled when people at work bothered to hook up the Wii devkits to our plasma thinking it'd look nicer.
 

Dragona Akehi

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Durante said:
It's just because Nintendo was so f'ing cheap that developers still chose to use a "high" color framebuffer. In 2006! We already suspected as much at Beyond3D when the first Mario Galaxy shots appeared and showed very obvious dithering on some flame effects. Component cables won't fix Nintendo's blatant disregard for any advancement in the art of 3D rendering in the past 5 years, I fear.
This has nothing to do with the fact that he's complaining the IQ is apparently worse than GameCube. It's the same level. Still a horrible shame that Nintendo can't get with the times and all, but as I said, I'm discerning little difference between 480p signals here.
 

LCGeek

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JoshuaJSlone said:
Wii being essentially GCN 1.5 I'd think the image quality would be as close to the same as any two systems could be. Have you tried playing a GCN game you thought had good image quality on your Wii to see if that still looks right, Bebpo?
Which it's not if you knew anything about the architecture (Wii). The dithering is a disappointment but it's not in all games I've read the WGPU thread at b3d and not all games sport the dithering just some and it's most likely because most Wii games were started on GC based kits not Wii kits
 

dark10x

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I haven't seen many Wii titles, but Zelda seems to run in 16-bit color. This was a problem shared by numerous Gamecube titles as well. RE4, Zelda WW, MGS-TTS, and plenty of others all had serious dithering problems. I was quite surprised and disappointed when I saw the Wii producing the same results. I was hoping it was due to the fact that Zelda is basically a GC game, but it seems as if other games suffer as well.

I can also say that image quality may appear worse due to the fact that these games are 16:9 while most Nintendo GC titles were 4:3 only. The resolution remains the same (640x480), but the TV stretches out the image to fill the screen. Despite people suggesting that Wii would display WVGA resolutions, that is not the case. So, really, the image quality is very much the same as GC, but the addition of 16:9 will give the impression that it has decreased.

The difference from merely enabling 480p is incredible.
Did you finally get a new TV, Dragona? If so, what did you go with?
 

Dragona Akehi

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dark10x said:
Did you finally get a new TV, Dragona? If so, what did you go with?
I was lucky and found one of these for what was basically a fire sale. Not the absolute best in teles, I know, but for the price it was perfect along with being brand new.
 

dark10x

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Dragona Akehi said:
I was lucky and found one of these for what was basically a fire sale. Not the absolute best in teles, I know, but for the price it was perfect along with being brand new.
My younger sister has that model back home and I have a smaller version in one of my rooms here. It's one of the better CRTs out there (with only the super fine pitch tube standing superior).

Good choice. :)
 

Matt

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My problemis that I seem to be getting horizontal, stationary lines in all of my Wii games (and the menus, etc.) I don't know what's causing this, as nothing else I hook up to my TV does it. I'm using an LCD HDTV with Wii hooked up via component.
 

RuGalz

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Matt said:
My problemis that I seem to be getting horizontal, stationary lines in all of my Wii games (and the menus, etc.) I don't know what's causing this, as nothing else I hook up to my TV does it. I'm using an LCD HDTV with Wii hooked up via component.
Are those lines only apparent and appear to come off of bright/white color pixels on the screen? And do you get it with other systems?
 

Matt

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Are those lines only apparent and appear to come off of bright/white color pixels on the screen? And do you get it with other systems?
Nope, I can see them when the screen is both dark and light (though it can very as to how easy they are to see).

And I haven't ever used another system on this TV, but I don't got them though cable, antenna, or DVD (via HDMI).
 

LCGeek

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dark10x said:
I haven't seen many Wii titles, but Zelda seems to run in 16-bit color. This was a problem shared by numerous Gamecube titles as well. RE4, Zelda WW, MGS-TTS, and plenty of others all had serious dithering problems. I was quite surprised and disappointed when I saw the Wii producing the same results. I was hoping it was due to the fact that Zelda is basically a GC game, but it seems as if other games suffer as well.

I can also say that image quality may appear worse due to the fact that these games are 16:9 while most Nintendo GC titles were 4:3 only. The resolution remains the same (640x480), but the TV stretches out the image to fill the screen. Despite people suggesting that Wii would display WVGA resolutions, that is not the case. So, really, the image quality is very much the same as GC, but the addition of 16:9 will give the impression that it has decreased.


Did you finally get a new TV, Dragona? If so, what did you go with?
WVGA?, weird way of putting it since most WXGA formats are labeled like that instead of vga. The Ramdac wasn't changed for Wii so those claiming it would output the correct amount of pixels for 16:9 were full of it. RE4 by far had a host of usses I got over it, but it remains fresh in my mind.
 

Speevy

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I guess my S-video cable (only thing my TV does) is going to show the Gamecube version as well as I'm ever going to see it.

I'm disappointed that Nintendo didn't at least pull out all the stops to make this system the pinnacle of current gen. visuals. So many games look worse than what we were seeing from the Xbox and PS2 as early as 2002.
 

Bebpo

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Dragona Akehi said:
This has nothing to do with the fact that he's complaining the IQ is apparently worse than GameCube. It's the same level. Still a horrible shame that Nintendo can't get with the times and all, but as I said, I'm discerning little difference between 480p signals here.
Yeah. It may be because I haven't turned on a GC game for like 9 months that my memory is a little hazy on how the GC looked. Too lazy to rehook mine up and do comparisons though :\

dark10x said:
I haven't seen many Wii titles, but Zelda seems to run in 16-bit color. This was a problem shared by numerous Gamecube titles as well. RE4, Zelda WW, MGS-TTS, and plenty of others all had serious dithering problems. I was quite surprised and disappointed when I saw the Wii producing the same results. I was hoping it was due to the fact that Zelda is basically a GC game, but it seems as if other games suffer as well.

I can also say that image quality may appear worse due to the fact that these games are 16:9 while most Nintendo GC titles were 4:3 only. The resolution remains the same (640x480), but the TV stretches out the image to fill the screen. Despite people suggesting that Wii would display WVGA resolutions, that is not the case. So, really, the image quality is very much the same as GC, but the addition of 16:9 will give the impression that it has decreased.
One thing this doesn't explain though is why games look so jaggy. I keep my games in 4:3 as, like you said, the 16:9 is fake and only hurts the image quality by pulling the same amount of pixels over a wider area. Yet games like Rayman are as jaggy as the jaggiest PS2 games :(
 

Linkup

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Speevy said:
I'm disappointed that Nintendo didn't at least pull out all the stops to make this system the pinnacle of current gen. visuals.
They did. It's can do graphics better than an xbox. It's up to the devs as usual.
 

TheWolf

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Pachinko said:
so what, the much touted 16:9 mode for Wii zelda isn't even anamorphic? It's just skinny 4:3 stretched? ugh.
not really. it's the same thing you'd find in widescreen Xbox, GC, PS2 games. it's fine.
 

RuGalz

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Matt said:
Nope, I can see them when the screen is both dark and light (though it can very as to how easy they are to see).

And I haven't ever used another system on this TV, but I don't got them though cable, antenna, or DVD (via HDMI).
So those lines just stays there all the time at the same place and don't go away?
 

Lee N

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SantaC said:
this is dithering.

Yeah, but that's Floyd-Steinberg Error Dispersion Dithering, PSP titles uses ordered dither which makes it look alot worse.

Not sure about the Wii as I havn't gotten mine yet.

edit: I changed the images in the picture to use ordered dither.. for comparison, it is really more apparent on coloured texture surfaces like it would be in a game though.

 

Bebpo

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A_Lee_N said:
Yeah, but that's Floyd-Steinberg Error Dispersion Dithering, PSP titles uses ordered dither which makes it look alot worse.

Not sure about the Wii as I havn't gotten mine yet.

edit: I changed the images in the picture to use ordered dither.. for comparison, it is really more apparent on coloured texture surfaces like it would be in a game though.

Yeah, Wii uses the latter kind or at least Zelda does. It's like you're looking at the entire game through a net.
 

Particle Physicist

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Durante said:
It's just because Nintendo was so f'ing cheap that developers still chose to use a "high" color framebuffer. In 2006! We already suspected as much at Beyond3D when the first Mario Galaxy shots appeared and showed very obvious dithering on some flame effects. Component cables won't fix Nintendo's blatant disregard for any advancement in the art of 3D rendering in the past 5 years, I fear.

so what exactly did they do?
 

BenT

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TheWolf said:
not really. it's the same thing you'd find in widescreen Xbox, GC, PS2 games. it's fine.
And what is that, then? 640x480 stretched? Something else? (I think I'm missing something in my understanding of widescreen HDTV resolutions.)

I assumed the Wii could do 852x480. I guess not, huh, from what you guys are saying.
 

Warm Machine

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BenT said:
And what is that, then? 640x480 stretched? Something else? (I think I'm missing something in my understanding of widescreen HDTV resolutions.)

I assumed the Wii could do 852x480. I guess not, huh, from what you guys are saying.
Yeah, 640x480 stretched. Actually more like 16:9 frame compressed into a 640x480 4:3 framebuffer.
 

Bebpo

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BenT said:
And what is that, then? 640x480 stretched? Something else? (I think I'm missing something in my understanding of widescreen HDTV resolutions.)

I assumed the Wii could do 852x480. I guess not, huh, from what you guys are saying.
AFAIK none of the 480i/p games on any system show >640x480 pixels in 16:9 mode. The games just reshape the aspect ratio so when you stretch out the 640x480 image to fit a 16:9 screen everything is in the correct proportion.

But that means you have the same amount of pixels spread over a larger space. IMO it always looks worse than the 4:3 image with black bars on the side.

I played almost all the "16:9" PS2 games like Yakuza, Valkyrie Profile 2, etc... in 4:3 and I'm playing Zelda in 4:3 as well. I think the only game that I've gone with 16:9 was SoTC because the game was more about atmosphere than looking good resolution/pixel-wise.
 

civilstrife

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I'm not quite sure what is going on in this thread, but when my component cables arrive tomorrow, the image quality on my plasma HDtv will be better than Composite would look on a SDTV, right? RIGHT?