SolidusDave
Member
(<only> means the last surviving species on this planet)
I would like to set this thought experiment in a more grounded setting, by using the fact that this actually already happened not that long ago.
In case you don't know, let's back up a bit first and see what actually (probably) happened:
Homo genus species distribution:
left=Asia; middle = Europe; right = Africa
Timescale is in million years.
Homo erectus deserves a special mention for sticking around longer than probably any other human species, clocking a couple million years or so. Though they were still too primitive to be relevant today (i.e. their brain likely didn't have the potential that allows us to do what we do today, if only in size).
So let's start with Homo heidelbergensis, our direct ancestor. Already pretty human-esque, almost the same brain capacity and they managed to spread to most of Africa, Europe and Asia.
This is where it gets interesting, because in each of these regions Homo heidelbergensis evolved into a separate species of humans. Actually, "group of humans" is probably the better terms due to being to similar, but it's still nowhere as close as e.g. the groups of people we define as races (so I will just call them different species in this post).
All three were seemingly superior to their ancestor, as Homo heidelbergensis was replaced by them in all regions.
(note: the little river in the top right stands for possible unknown archaic African hominins that may or may not interbred with humans)
Bonus mention of Homo floresiensis, that managed to survive until very recently (10.000 years ago) while being Hobbit-sized!
Anyway, let's check out our direct competitors for the place of the most dominant species on Earth:
Neanderthals:
Early Neanderthals existed as early as 600.000 years ago, but you would place distinct Neanderthals around 250.000 years ago. They never left Eurasia and went extinct a mere 40.000 years ago.
They had a larger brain than us and seemingly the same mental capacity, in fact, their tools could even be described as being better. Red haired and white skinned. They were much more bulky while a bit shorter than Humans. It seems particular their arms and hands were much stronger than ours. Apparently they were also better adapted to the cold.
Humans arrived 45.000 years ago in Europe and were a competing force, with neanderthals gaining back ground during cold periods. However, an extremely cold period, change in environment and the increased competition (including possible diseases) drove them into extinction. It probably was not an active genocide/specicide (which would not be very surprising for humans TBH), but the fact that Neanderthals stuck only to local communities instead of pulling regional resources like we did. Their bodies needed also more energy than any other humanoid so lack of food sources hit them particularly hard.
It's important to note that there were direct interactions between Neanderthals and Humans, even inter-breeding as we still have parts of their DNA in our genome (all humans apart from Modern humans whose ancestors stayed in Africa. Sorry white supremacists, the original/pure human is black and the rest is a kinky interspecies mix). However, it's not much and it seems that only human female + Neanderthal male could even produce viable offspring.
Denisovans:
Not going to talk much about them as there's not really much known apart from DNA analysis. It seems they were closer related to Neanderthals than to us and probably had a similar stocky build as Neanderthals, although it seems Denisovans were dark skinned (with brown eyes etc.). The time scale of their rise&fall more or less fits with the one for the Neanderthals (so both started a bit earlier than humans did).
They interbred with humans who were expanding from Africa all the way to Australia. That's why Melanesians and Aboriginal Australians (and native Americans, but much less so) share DNA with the Denisovans, a bit more even than the amount all non-African humans share with the Neanderthals. We don't know enough but it could be that they went extinct by being assimilated into humans.
Fun fact: Tibetans earned their gene that helps with living in high altitudes.
Humans (existing since ca. 100.000-200.000 years) you should know
But if you are wondering about the first human migrations, this image will probably confuse you a bit more:
So, ignoring the details: first from Africa to Asia with a non-stop move to Australia. Then Africa to Europe. Asia to North and then South America America was last.
Ok actually that's already pretty cool, so my actual intention for this thread may be misplaced, but here we go:
In an alternative reality, how would our world look like if at least the Neanderthals had survived as a distinct species?
This is not what-if-Aliens-visit territory, we already had Neanderthals and humans living next to each other, each with their own culture, art, tech etc.
All it needs is Neanderthals surviving a few thousands years longer (till they have agriculture etc.) and/or humans being less of an invasive species.
So, GAF.
Would you fight this guy?
Or would you date him, specifically searching with the help of the species setting in Occupid?
I would like to set this thought experiment in a more grounded setting, by using the fact that this actually already happened not that long ago.
In case you don't know, let's back up a bit first and see what actually (probably) happened:
Homo genus species distribution:
left=Asia; middle = Europe; right = Africa
Timescale is in million years.
Homo erectus deserves a special mention for sticking around longer than probably any other human species, clocking a couple million years or so. Though they were still too primitive to be relevant today (i.e. their brain likely didn't have the potential that allows us to do what we do today, if only in size).
So let's start with Homo heidelbergensis, our direct ancestor. Already pretty human-esque, almost the same brain capacity and they managed to spread to most of Africa, Europe and Asia.
This is where it gets interesting, because in each of these regions Homo heidelbergensis evolved into a separate species of humans. Actually, "group of humans" is probably the better terms due to being to similar, but it's still nowhere as close as e.g. the groups of people we define as races (so I will just call them different species in this post).
- Africa -> Homo sapiens (that will become us Modern humans, Homo sapiens sapiens)
- Europe -> Homo neanderthalensis (= Neanderthals)
- Asia -> the Denisovans (we don't know much about these guys)
All three were seemingly superior to their ancestor, as Homo heidelbergensis was replaced by them in all regions.
(note: the little river in the top right stands for possible unknown archaic African hominins that may or may not interbred with humans)
Bonus mention of Homo floresiensis, that managed to survive until very recently (10.000 years ago) while being Hobbit-sized!
Anyway, let's check out our direct competitors for the place of the most dominant species on Earth:
Neanderthals:
Early Neanderthals existed as early as 600.000 years ago, but you would place distinct Neanderthals around 250.000 years ago. They never left Eurasia and went extinct a mere 40.000 years ago.
They had a larger brain than us and seemingly the same mental capacity, in fact, their tools could even be described as being better. Red haired and white skinned. They were much more bulky while a bit shorter than Humans. It seems particular their arms and hands were much stronger than ours. Apparently they were also better adapted to the cold.
Humans arrived 45.000 years ago in Europe and were a competing force, with neanderthals gaining back ground during cold periods. However, an extremely cold period, change in environment and the increased competition (including possible diseases) drove them into extinction. It probably was not an active genocide/specicide (which would not be very surprising for humans TBH), but the fact that Neanderthals stuck only to local communities instead of pulling regional resources like we did. Their bodies needed also more energy than any other humanoid so lack of food sources hit them particularly hard.
It's important to note that there were direct interactions between Neanderthals and Humans, even inter-breeding as we still have parts of their DNA in our genome (all humans apart from Modern humans whose ancestors stayed in Africa. Sorry white supremacists, the original/pure human is black and the rest is a kinky interspecies mix). However, it's not much and it seems that only human female + Neanderthal male could even produce viable offspring.
Denisovans:
Not going to talk much about them as there's not really much known apart from DNA analysis. It seems they were closer related to Neanderthals than to us and probably had a similar stocky build as Neanderthals, although it seems Denisovans were dark skinned (with brown eyes etc.). The time scale of their rise&fall more or less fits with the one for the Neanderthals (so both started a bit earlier than humans did).
They interbred with humans who were expanding from Africa all the way to Australia. That's why Melanesians and Aboriginal Australians (and native Americans, but much less so) share DNA with the Denisovans, a bit more even than the amount all non-African humans share with the Neanderthals. We don't know enough but it could be that they went extinct by being assimilated into humans.
Fun fact: Tibetans earned their gene that helps with living in high altitudes.
Humans (existing since ca. 100.000-200.000 years) you should know
But if you are wondering about the first human migrations, this image will probably confuse you a bit more:
So, ignoring the details: first from Africa to Asia with a non-stop move to Australia. Then Africa to Europe. Asia to North and then South America America was last.
Ok actually that's already pretty cool, so my actual intention for this thread may be misplaced, but here we go:
In an alternative reality, how would our world look like if at least the Neanderthals had survived as a distinct species?
This is not what-if-Aliens-visit territory, we already had Neanderthals and humans living next to each other, each with their own culture, art, tech etc.
All it needs is Neanderthals surviving a few thousands years longer (till they have agriculture etc.) and/or humans being less of an invasive species.
- Would Neanderthals develop separately from humans or would they start sharing tech early on?
- Would there be more interbreeding to the point where we would have Neanderthals controlling Europe, pure Homo sapiens living in Africa and more evenly mixed offspring of the two living on the borders?
- No Roman Empire etc., but would comparable early civilizations of each species fight more viciously for control?
- Would we see overall less racism because it's now a "us vs them" on a bigger scale? On the other hand, the dominant species will enslave the other one(s) (especially if it's us).
- Assuming a similar tech level, would Neanderthals with their stronger bodies dominate wars that still depend on physical warfare?
- Would religions be set up differently as they can't really ignore that humans aren't the special snowflake that popped into existence?
- Neanderthals never seemed to care much about exploring the world nor forming big social networks, would they even built big civilizations at all? Even if so, they might not care about gaining more land like the expanding humans did/do (would this result in less wars?)
- Now throw in alliances with Denisovans to have even more fun!
So, GAF.
Would you fight this guy?
Or would you date him, specifically searching with the help of the species setting in Occupid?
