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[Sephzilla]

Fixed

Han Solo had a regression in character. Rey should have found Luke in the middle instead of at the end. There would have been a bigger focus on all three of the new leads.

That would be like the rebels blowing up the Death Star in the middle of A New Hope. The entire movie revolves around finding Luke Skywalker...

 

[ElFly]

It looked great in 2002. But I do remember being disappointed that there were no live action Clone Troopers. A lot of people said they couldn't tell, but it was obvious to me because I was really looking forward to them.

this did not look great, not even good, not even passable back in 2002

it looked like crap and we noticed

 

[Sorcerer]

Yeah, I have a hard time agreeing with the idea that Lucas and the prequels pushed CG forward when Toy Story, and Jurassic Park both predate The Phantom Menace by pretty decent chunks of time. It also does George no favors that Jurassic Park's CG has aged incredibly better than the CG in the prequels. You could also throw Titanic into the mix as well since there's a surprising amount of CG work done there too.

I like what was done in Spirits Within much better than Jar-Jar.

 

[Boney]

This is the Red Letter Media review excerpt that shows how the prequels borrow so much imagery in the worst ways possible.

https://youtu.be/Iq0wv2ossJU

Makes one so sad

 

[Nairume]

Yeah, I have a hard time saying that Lucas and the prequels pushed CG forward when Toy Story and Jurassic Park both predate The Phantom Menace by pretty decent chunks of time. It also does George no favors that Jurassic Park's CG has aged incredibly better than the CG in the prequels.

Even focusing it on Jar Jar as an all cg character existing alongside physical cast members doesn't even work as a risk since that same special effects team already successfully proved it was doable in a film that was released three years before TPM.

Edit: And considering the timing, it was probably the point at which ILM and Lucas thought they could make the Jabba scene added into ANH SE work.

 

[Forsaken82]

The LOTR trilogy is filled with horrendous CGI. There is a part in Fellowship specifically where legolas is running up and down the back of a troll that looks like its from a ps2 game.

The scene you are referring to doesn't look bad from a graphical point of reference... it just looks garbage because of poor Live vs CGI composition. PS2 wishes it could output that level of fidelity. Hell, the effects in all of the LOTR films still look better than stuff in PS4 and XB1 games. The composition between live action and CGI doesn't nearly hold up as well today however.

 

[Surfinn]

I think you could say that it was an interesting choice to move the Star Wars story from centering on scrappy rebels on backwater planets to actually showing what was going on in the corridors of power in the capitals of the galaxy. Interesting in theory anyway.

"Well that's the real trick, isn't it?"

The worst part about the prequels is not the product we got but the potential they squandered..

 

[Boney]

Fixed

Han Solo had a regression in character. Rey should have found Luke in the middle instead of at the end. There would have been a bigger focus on all three of the new leads.

How did Han received a regression character wise. After his horrible performance and role in Jedi where it's basically he hooked up with Leia some time ago and now he's not frozen anymore, it goes to abandoning his family because he couldn't face the fact that his son caused so much pain and that he rejected him as a father. Goes back at doing what he knows to survive but has the gravitas help out Rey and Finn because how much he went through with Luke so many years ago, it sparks his sense of responsibility, sees Leia due to the circumstances showing how they were split apart despite their affection and decides to take care of what he should've done and be a father and rescue his son.

He's great and doubted Ford had it in him after phoning it in for so many years.

 

[BocoDragon]

They took a risk trying to play this off as live-action.

It looked great in 2002.

Lies detected.

It really didn't. It looked bad when it was new.

CGI in general looked horrible in 2002, despite the fact that it was starting to do the heavy lifting in films. But there were certain areas where the audience would be willing to suspend their disbelief. For example, Gollum in The Two Towers or Spiderman swinging through the streets. Didn't look real, but it was showing us stuff we couldn't have had with practical effects.

But when it came to the clone troopers, it was widely thought to be a mistake to use CGI instead of practical suits. This was when Lucas was solidifying his reputation as being computer crazy and using the technology in inappropriate ways that people didn't really buy into.

Put it alongside the kung fu battle in Blade 2 as early over-reaches of CGI that the audience rejected.

 

[Sephzilla]

He's great and doubted Ford had it in him after phoning it in for so many years.

I just want to take a second to give some love towards Ford in TFA. After Crystal Skull I really thought Ford was going to phone it in with TFA (especially when you factor in how much Ford seemed done with the Han Solo character)

 

[Schlorgan]

I just want to take a second to give some love towards Ford in TFA. After Crystal Skull I really thought Ford was going to phone it in with TFA (especially when you factor in how much Ford seemed done with the Han Solo character)

TFA was some of the best acting I've ever seen him do.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

Yeah, I have a hard time agreeing with the idea that Lucas and the prequels pushed CG forward when Toy Story, and Jurassic Park both predate The Phantom Menace by pretty decent chunks of time. It also does George no favors that Jurassic Park's CG has aged incredibly better than the CG in the prequels. You could also throw Titanic into the mix as well since there's a surprising amount of CG work done there too.

I acknowledge those films having an impact with furthering CG. But I also acknowledge to me at least that the Prequels CGI is still great to this day. For me, I find that Attack of the Clones had some stuff that looks outdated. Jurassic Park might look great at times, but when it's in the full daylight, the dinosaurs looked outdated. But hey just giving my two cents.

That would be like the rebels blowing up the Death Star in the middle of A New Hope. The entire movie revolves around finding Luke Skywalker...

Somehow this guy had a part of this map that he somehow came across. Than he hands it off to BB-8 which during the whole movie he carries. But that's not all. For some reason R2D2 get robot depression and turns off and power back on after the Starkiller Base blew up. The movie focusing on Luke Skywalker is what I didn't like about it. Hey, if she found him sooner like in the middle, there would have been a focus on her, Finn, and Poe. That's why Micheal Ardnt ended up not working on the final script. He wanted Rey to meet him halfway so the focus could be more on her and the later characters. That's one of my main problems.

 

[Trigonometrize.]

I just want to take a second to give some love towards Ford in TFA. After Crystal Skull I really thought Ford was going to phone it in with TFA (especially when you factor in how much Ford seemed done with the Han Solo character)

I'm sure Ford would've completely phoned it in had the script not been exactly how it was: Solo sacrifices himself to serve the story. Ford doesn't hate the character, he hated the character's plot armor and lack of anything to do in jedi.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

How did Han received a regression character wise. After his horrible performance and role in Jedi where it's basically he hooked up with Leia some time ago and now he's not frozen anymore, it goes to abandoning his family because he couldn't face the fact that his son caused so much pain and that he rejected him as a father. Goes back at doing what he knows to survive but has the gravitas help out Rey and Finn because how much he went through with Luke so many years ago, it sparks his sense of responsibility, sees Leia due to the circumstances showing how they were split apart despite their affection and decides to take care of what he should've done and be a father and rescue his son.

He's great and doubted Ford had it in him after phoning it in for so many years.

Not only is it a regression but kind of out of character. Its like they wanted him to go back to the old Han before they killed him off. I know this is not canon, but in the expanded universe he had shit like that happen to him, but he doesn't abandon his wife. It just to me felt like a flaw I couldn't exactly overlook.

 

[Sephzilla]

Somehow this guy had a part of this map that he somehow came across. Than he hands it off to BB-8 which during the whole movie he carries. But that's not all. For some reason R2D2 get robot depression and turns off and power back on after the Starkiller Base blew up. The movie focusing on Luke Skywalker is what I didn't like about it. Hey, if she found him sooner like in the middle, there would have been a focus on her, Finn, and Poe. That's why Micheal Ardnt ended up not working on the final script. He wanted Rey to meet him halfway so the focus could be more on her and the later characters. That's one of my main problems.

Luke would have completely overshadowed Rey and Finn had he been in the entire second half of the movie.

Not only is it a regression but kind of out of character. Its like they wanted him to go back to the old Han before they killed him off. I know this is not canon, but in the expanded universe he had shit like that happen to him, but he doesn't abandon his wife. It just to me felt like a flaw I couldn't exactly overlook.

Doesn't Han basically do something close to this after Chewie died in the old expanded universe? He goes into a complete drunk depression and basically abandons his family for a bit.

 

[Boney]

Oh shit how did chewie die in the EU? Before the release of TFA I was betting on Chewie being the first to bite the dust as a warning that the old guys are going to go down and that they wouldn't have the balls to kill Han or Luke in the first movie. I'm glad I was wrong.

Not only is it a regression but kind of out of character. Its like they wanted him to go back to the old Han before they killed him off. I know this is not canon, but in the expanded universe he had shit like that happen to him, but he doesn't abandon his wife. It just to me felt like a flaw I couldn't exactly overlook.

It goes both ways and I can see your point of view, which is exactly why Solo is so ashamed of his cowardice. Empire for example shows him risking his life for a small chance of finding Luke in the ice storm due to the incompetence of others. It shows incredible commitment to his friend.

Which is why letting down everybody and blaming himself what happened to Ben seems believable. His life took a hard turn and we as the audience root for him to get his shit together instead of Jedi Solo that does whacky stuff in Endor

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

Luke would have completely overshadowed Rey and Finn had he been in the entire second half of the movie.

That's a good point but it would have been interesting to say the least if he was found in the middle of the movie. I just didn't like how that was wholly set up.


Doesn't Han basically do something close to this after Chewie died in the old expanded universe? He basically goes into a complete drunk depression.

Yeah but he doesn't abandon his family. I might not like The New Jedi Order but that's something I clearly remember. Unless I remember wrong since I read those books long time ago.

 

[Nairume]

Luke would have completely overshadowed Rey and Finn had he been in the entire second half of the movie.



Doesn't Han basically do something close to this after Chewie died in the old expanded universe? He goes into a complete drunk depression and basically abandons his family for a bit.

Yup. He also pretty much destroyed his relationship with his youngest son, who was the main target of all his grief, before fucking off to space to be on his own.

So, you know

 

[Sephzilla]

I don't think what happens to Han between ROTJ and TFA is a regression of character. Han's character arc in the OT is him going from a greedy smuggler to a brave rebel who helps his friends. Having something he helped create, his son, end up slaughtering an entire school of Jedi being trained by his brother-in-law and then seeing his son become one of the commanders of something Han helped destroy was probably completely devastating to him and Han probably felt like he betrayed his friends and also betrayed everything he thought he stood for. What happens to Han in between movies is extremely personal and devastating, and we never really see anything personal or devastating happen to Han in the OT so we don't really have any baseline to see how he would react. Plus, lets be honest, Han and Leah was always a marriage destined to end with them breaking up.

 

[shiftplusone]

I think han in TFA was an easy, logical way to take his character after what happened to him with ben and whatnot. Especially with leia still running a resistance force and ren being a big leader in the group she's fighting against, han peacing out because he feels like a failure is something I can understand

something I clearly remember.

Unless I remember wrong

 

[QuantumZebra]

Being blatantly shitty and going to theaters with that knowledge?

Spoiler

seriously... watch the behind the scenes of Episode 1... some of the production team was straight out looking at George like he was insane

 

[BocoDragon]

That would be like the rebels blowing up the Death Star in the middle of A New Hope. The entire movie revolves around finding Luke Skywalker...

I think ideally they would have found Luke in the final act. Maybe like how they found the Knight at the end of The Last Crusade. I want to see some interaction with him, just a little, so that you really care about seeing him in action in the next movie.

I just didn't care for the ending introduction of Luke. I don't think it could have been a lazier introduction. An R2-powered deus ex machina kicks in, and we go to a setting where it's like "yup, there he is. You unlocked "Old Luke" action figure. See you next movie".

That's not a proper character introduction for a film. It's a corporate teaser for a future product.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

Being blatantly shitty and going to theaters with that knowledge?

Spoiler

seriously... watch the behind the scenes of Episode 1... some of the production team was straight out looking at George like he was insane

I don't know what you saw, but I just saw the crew giving normal reactions.

 

[Boney]

Being blatantly shitty and going to theaters with that knowledge?

Spoiler

seriously... watch the behind the scenes of Episode 1... some of the production team was straight out looking at George like he was insane

The guy telling George what a disaster the entire finale for PM I'd after the first showing the crew had, and that due to how it was shot it was not going to be possible to edit around the mess that it was.
Even George starts to panic

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

The guy telling George what a disaster the entire finale for PM I'd after the first showing the crew had, and that due to how it was shot it was not going to be possible to edit around the mess that it was.
Even George starts to panic

I thought that entire finale was fine. It worked for me.

 

[Nairume]

I don't know what you saw, but I just saw the crew giving normal reactions.

 

[Sephzilla]

I think ideally they would have found Luke in the final act. Maybe like how they found the Knight at the end of The Last Crusade. I want to see some interaction with him, just a little, so that you really care about seeing him in action in the next movie.

I just didn't care for the ending introduction of Luke. I don't think it could have been a lazier introduction. An R2-powered deus ex machina kicks in, and we go to a setting where it's like "yup, there he is. You unlocked "Old Luke" action figure. See you next movie".

That's not a proper character introduction for a film. It's a corporate teaser for a future product.

Yeah, I can understand this complaint. Introducing Luke is kind of tricky when you want to keep the focus on the new characters. If you introduce Luke midway through the movie he's going to overshadow Rey and Finn and then you need to figure out a way to give Kylo Ren some plot armor because Luke would otherwise dumptruck him probably. But if you introduce him too late it feels like a next movie stinger.

I don't know what you saw, but I just saw the crew giving normal reactions.

Stunned silence and reactions along the lines of realizing it's a mess are not normal reactions. Even George basically admits it got away from him.

 

[Surfinn]

Lol yup. The documentary is filled with people giving sideways looks at George. I've seen them a number of times.

This is what happens when you don't have a collaboration.

Lol that's one person really.

Edit

I seen that photo used so many times

Watch again. There are a NUMBER of people who look like their either confused or in complete disagreement with George.

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

Lol that's one person really.

Edit

I seen that photo used so many times

 

[Sephzilla]

Lol that's one person really.

Edit

I seen that photo used so many times

Between the behind the scenes stuff and the Clone Wars TV show, there's a pretty big paper trail of people all basically saying George makes some really crazy decisions.

 

[Nairume]

Lol that's one person really.

Edit

I seen that photo used so many times

That is the producer of the movie.

That is not the look of a positive reaction to years of effort finally being finished, nor is that someone who should have that reaction.

 

[Schlorgan]

That is the producer of the movie.

That is not the look of a positive reaction to years of effort finally being finished, nor is that someone who should have that reaction.

The editor that tries to explain pacing and then just gives up is a pretty great moment.

"I may have gone too far in a few places" is the best line of dialogue to come from the prequels. :3

https://youtu.be/KseqzmcqQBQ

 

[BlueDogAnchorite]

That is the producer of the movie.

That is not the look of a positive reaction to years of effort finally being finished, nor is that someone who should have that reaction.

Whatever you say bossman. I thought the movie was fine.

 

[brandonh83]

Rick looks like he's... watching a movie.

I look that way when watching movies a lot of the time, even if I'm enjoying it. I'll do that if I'm thinking or analyzing something.

People sure do like to take things completely out of context to bash the movies or whatever.

 

[Raptor]

The fact you're praising that horrendous clownish Sidious vs. Yoda scene that drained away all of Palp's awesome sinister gravitas tells me all I need to know.

If safe means I don't have to watch one of the most memorable villains of all time humiliated with physical gags, give me safe.

Oh you will have safe, safe crap that will make trillions baby!!

 

[Schlorgan]

All of the defenders in this thread and I don't think anyone actually answered the question posed in the OP.

 

[Nairume]

People sure do like to take things completely out of context to bash the movies or whatever.

Well it's a good thing the context of that image is that's him immediately after they finished screening the movie for the first time.

 

[Nairume]

Whatever you say bossman. I thought the movie was fine.

It's all groovy mate. I'm just giving my honest full opinion about all these things that the movie was not fine in my opinion

 

[DragonSworne]

A lot of this essentially. It tried to actually expand the universe, show how it worked and make it more of a real place. TFA followed a framework and seemingly went out of it's way to shrink the universe. The seat of the Republic that the OT spent fighting for gets blown up casually to raise the stakes and "go back to its roots", while the PT at least really tried to present a world that could lead to the OT. I mean, these were ostensibly kids movies filled with politics and romance and the heroes making huge mistakes.

We didn't need an expanded universe. We needed a meaningful and impactful story of how Anakin became Darth Vader.


No one was asking for any of the stuff Lucas thought was more important than Vader's story.

 

[Nairume]

We didn't need an expanded universe. We needed a meaningful and impactful story of how Anakin became Darth Vader.


No one was asking for any of the stuff Lucas thought was more important than Vader's story.

To be more accurate, it's not that nobody was asking for that stuff (because people were totally asking for a lot of things that did end up in the movies). It's that nobody was asking for it to get so excessive that it came at the expensive of Anakin's story (which it did).

 

[kopitarrulez_11]

I've always wondered about Maul you think originally was he supposed to be Dookus spot because the Revenge plot for obi wan would have been much sweeter and more satisfying

 

[Nairume]

I've always wondered about Maul you think originally was he supposed to be Dookus spot because the Revenge plot for obi wan would have been much sweeter and more satisfying

Or if not that, then him being Grievous would have made sense.

 

[Gavin Darklighter]

Nostalgia pandering in the prequels

Clone Troopers (who, just as a reminder, are comprised entirely of Boba Fett clones) still fly around in Star Destroyers, only they have a stripe of paint on them, just like their armor is just Stormtrooper armor with a couple of colors on them. Lets also not forget that Revenge of the Sith had proto-A Wings and proto-X Wings, the latter came complete with "Lock S Foils in attack position". And the movie opens with Palpatine sitting in the not-throne room from Return of the Jedi.

Two wrongs don't make a right

 

[platakul]

The incredible racism in The Phantom Menace was a risk that paid off if you ask me

 

[DavidDesu]

The Phantom Menace was shit. I was there, I was as hyped as a 14/15 year old me could possibly have been. It was shit. The pod race was cool as fuck (helped I was into F1 and George literally ripped off much of the pod race sequence from the Monza race in the Formula One movie Grand Prix made in the 60's - seriously go check it out and compare, the entire beginning of the pod race, even down to individual shots was ripped off from that scene). The podrace and the final lightsaber stuff was probably the only stuff that kept me engaged and pretending to like the film for as long as I did.

AOTC ruined so much of Star Wars for me, and ROTS just put the boot in, the final nail in the coffin. Whiney Anakin with such poor, almost non existent, motivation to become a child murdering cunt. Even Obi Wan was a dick. Padme one minute a ball busting hero, the next a whimpering mother-to-be who for some unknown reason finds Anakin someone to be attracted to.

The films were shite. Utter fucking shite. Even if you dislike TFA surely, SURELY you realise it was actually a competent film, beyond competent actually. Great characters you can find endearing and route for. Well filmed and framed, with some really clever camera work. Great pacing (too fast at first but on multiple viewings it's perfect). Looks gorgeous. The prequels were none of these. All this talk of risk taking or not is just uber-fan bullshittery to try and mask the fact that these films were plain fucking awful in every way. Amateur hour, CGI laden, acting devoid, character devoid pieces of crap. Nobody neeeded these films, stop legitimising and excusing them, they were fucking trash.

Can't wait for more of the new Star Wars, from people who actually seem to have a clue on how to make a decent film.

 

[crackhead_bob]

Between the behind the scenes stuff and the Clone Wars TV show, there's a pretty big paper trail of people all basically saying George makes some really crazy decisions.

The Clone Wars TV series was actually good, this despite the fact that Lucas was on board in the creative development of Clone Wars as well. That being said, I have to wonder if anyone on the writing staff had some notion that the prequels were turds. There had to be some tipping point in the creative process for CW to turn out as decent as it did, otherwise you'd have had the same crap coming out of the TV show that you had in the films. And indeed there were some episodes in the first season that seemed like it could have headed in that direction. Ahsoka Tano was really annoying in season one. And she was a character created by Lucas to appeal to young girls.

But the character now seems more tethered to Dave Filoni. He seems to have a huge investment in the character at least more so than what Lucas seemed to have in mind for her.

What I'm wondering is if there was some measure of awareness of how divisive the prequels were among the CW writing staff or if they were working in a bubble and by sheer luck happened to deliver a decent product. The behind the scenes videos of the prequels seem to paint a portrait of some who were out of touch and others who had their hands tied behind their backs.

 

[brandonh83]

Well it's a good thing the context of that image is that's him immediately after they finished screening the movie for the first time.

So you can read his mind. Alrighty. As producer he saw it all coming together. It's not like this was him just watching it for the first time. But whatever narrative people want to spin in order to fulfill their opinions.

You really think they're going to include footage of him negatively reacting to the movie on the bonus features? Give me a break.

 

[Nairume]

You really think they're going to include footage of him negatively reacting to the movie on the bonus features? Give me a break.

We're talking about the same bonus features where George Lucas very clearly struggles to find a way to admit he fucked up after seeing the reactions to the screening.

I don't have to read McCallum's mind to see that he wasn't happy with it, nor am I surprised it made it in the bonus features. Not everything that makes it in the bonus features of films are of people glowing about the movies 100% of the time.

 

[TheXbox]

The Clone Wars TV series was actually good, this despite the fact that Lucas was on board in the creative development of Clone Wars as well. That being said, I have to wonder if anyone on the writing staff had some notion that the prequels were turds. There had to be some tipping point in the creative process for CW to turn out as decent as it did, otherwise you'd have had the same crap coming out of the TV show that you had in the films. And indeed there were some episodes in the first season that seemed like it could have headed in that direction. Ahsoka Tano was really annoying in season one. And she was a character created by Lucas to appeal to young girls.

But the character now seems more tethered to Dave Filoni. He seems to have a huge investment in the character at least more so than what Lucas seemed to have in mind for her.

What I'm wondering is if there was some measure of awareness of how divisive the prequels were among the CW writing staff or if they were working in a bubble and by sheer luck happened to deliver a decent product. The behind the scenes videos of the prequels seem to paint a portrait of some who were out of touch and others who had their hands tied behind their backs.

Yes, they were aware the prequels were divisive, but I don't think anyone working at Lucasfilm then would've fallen on the sour side of that debate. Dave Filoni stans hard for Lucas and the prequels. Clone Wars itself has a lot of the tonal dissonance that plagues the prequels. We've got baby droid episodes for toddlers followed by Apocalypse Now shit with clone troopers slaughtering each other. It's fucking ridiculous. It features some of the best characters in Star Wars (Ahsoka) and the worst (Jar Jar, Ziro the Hutt). The show is like the best and the worst of Lucas' tendencies, only we see more of the good stuff in CW than we do in the prequels.

 

[Gavin Darklighter]

Yes, they were aware the prequels were divisive, but I don't think anyone working at Lucasfilm then would've fallen on the sour side of that debate. Dave Filoni stans hard for Lucas and the prequels. Clone Wars itself has a lot of the tonal dissonance that plagues the prequels. We've got baby droid episodes for toddlers followed by Apocalypse Now shit with clone troopers slaughtering each other. It's fucking ridiculous. It features some of the best characters in Star Wars (Ahsoka) and the worst (Jar Jar, Ziro the Hutt). The show is like the best and the worst of Lucas' tendencies, only we see more of the good stuff in CW than we do in the prequels.

Ashoka was horrible. We are expected to believe that Anakin had an apprentice when we never hear about her at all in any of the films and when Anakin himself is in training and in Episode III is specifically told "we do not grant you the rank of master!" like its a major plot point in ROTS for why Palpatine was able to recruit him.