• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

What's wrong with libertarianism

Status
Not open for further replies.

FoneBone

Member
Originally posted by CharlieDigital (thanks!) in the PolitGAF thread, but really deserves its own discussion rather than being buried in there.

The whole article is long (hell, these excerpts are long as it is), but it deserves to be read in its entirety.

An introductory note:
If you--

* have never heard of (or don't think much of) Rothbard, Rockwell, Rand, and von Mises
* accept that the FDIC is a pretty good idea
* want a leaner, more efficient government, but don't dream of getting rid of it

...then this page isn't really addressed to you. You're probably more of what I'd call a small-government conservative; and if you voted against Bush, we can probably get along just fine.

On the other hand, you might want to stick around to see what your more fundamentalist colleagues are saying.


Academic libertarians love abstract, fact-free arguments-- often, justifications for why property is an absolute right. As a random example, from one James Craig Green:

This concept of property originated in some of those primitive tribes when individuals claimed possessions for themselves as against the collective ownership of their groups. Based on individual initiative, labor, and innovation, some were successful at establishing a separate, private ownership role for themselves. [...]

Examples of natural property in land and water resources have already been given, but deserve more detail. An illustration of how this would be accomplished is a farm with irrigation ditches to grow crops in dry western states. To appropriate unowned natural resources, a settler used his labor to clear the land and dug ditches to carry water from a river for irrigation. Crops were planted, buildings were constructed, and the property thus created was protected by the owner from aggression or the later claims of others. This process was a legitimate creation of property.

The first paragraph is pure fantasy, and is simply untrue as a portrait of "primitive tribes", which are generally extremely collectivist by American standards. The second sounds good precisely because it leaves out all the actual facts of American history: the settlers' land was not "unowned" but stolen from the Indians by state conquest (and much of it stolen from the Mexicans as well); the lands were granted to the settlers by government; the communities were linked to the national economy by railroads founded by government grant; the crops were adapted to local conditions by land grant colleges.

[snip]

Distaste for facts isn't merely a habit of a few Internet cranks; it's actually libertarian doctrine, the foundation of the 'Austrian school'. Here's Ludwig von Mises in Epistemological Problems of Economics:

As there is no discernible regularity in the emergence and concatenation of ideas and judgments of value, and therefore also not in the succession and concatenation of human acts, the role that experience plays in the study of human action is radically different from that which it plays in the natural sciences. Experience of human action is history. Historical experience does not provide facts that could render in the construction of a theoretical science services that could be compared to those which laboratory experiments and observation render to physics. Historical events are always the joint effect of the cooperation of various factors and chains of causation. In matters of human action no experiments can be performed. History needs to be interpreted by theoretical insight gained previously from other sources.

The 'other sources' turn out to be armchair ruminations on how things must be. It's true enough that economics is not physics; but that's not warrant to turn our backs on the methods of science and return to scholastic speculation. Economics should always move in the direction of science, experiment, and falsifiability. If it were really true that it cannot, then no one, including the libertarians, would be entitled to strong belief in any economic program.
At this point some libertarian readers are pumping their hands in the air like a piston, anxious to explain that their ideal isn't Rothbard or von Mises or Hayek, but the Founding Fathers.

Nice try. Everybody wants the Founders on their side; but it was a different country back then-- 95% agricultural, low density, highly homogenous, primitive in technology-- and modern libertarianism simply doesn't apply. (The OED's citations of the word for the time are all theological.)


All American political movements have their roots in the 1700s-- indeed, in the winning side, since Loyalist opinion essentially disappeared. We are all-- liberals, conservatives, libertarians-- against the Georgian monarchy and for the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You can certainly find places where one Founder or another rants against government; you can find other places where one Founder or another rants against rebellion, anarchy, and the opponents of federalism. Sometimes the same Founder can be quoted on both sides. They were a mixed bunch, and lived long enough lives to encounter different situations.

It cannot have escaped those who have attended with candor to the arguments employed against the extensive powers of the government, that the authors of them have very little considered how far these powers were necessary means of attaining a necessary end. --James Madison

Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. --Thomas Jefferson

All the Property that is necessary to a man is his natural Right, which none may justly deprive him of, but all Property superfluous to such Purposes is the property of the Public who, by their Laws have created it and who may, by other Laws dispose of it. --Benjamin Franklin

The Constitution is above all a definition of a strengthened government, and the Federalist Papers are an extended argument for it. The Founders negotiated a balance between a government that was arbitrary and coercive (their experience as British colonial subjects) and one that was powerless and divided (the failed Articles of Confederation).

The Founders didn't anticipate the New Deal-- there was no need for them to-- but they were as quick to resort to the resources of the state as any modern liberal. Ben Franklin, for instance, played the Pennsylvania legislature like a violin-- using it to fund a hospital he wanted to establish, for instance. Obviously he had no qualms about using state power to do good social works.

It's also worth pointing out that the Founders' words were nobler than their deeds. Most were quite comfortable with slave-owning, for instance. No one worried about women's consent to be governed. Washington's own administration made it a crime to criticize the government. And as Robert Allen Rutland reminds us,

For almost 150 years, in fact, the Bill of Rights was paid lip service in patriotic orations and ignored in the marketplace. It wasn't until after World War I that the Supreme Court began the process of giving real meaning to the Bill of Rights.

The process of giving life to our constitutional rights has largely been the work of liberals. On the greatest fight of all, to treat blacks as human beings, libertarians supported the other side.
Why are they trouble?

[snip]

At least some libertarians have understood the connection. Rothbard again, writing in 1994:

The truth is that since we have been stuck with a two-party system, any electoral revolution against big government had to be expressed through a Republican victory. So it is certainly true that Newt Gingrich and his faction, as well as Robert Dole, have ridden to power on the libertarian wave.


Can you smell the compromise here? Hold your nose and vote for the Repubs, boys. But then don't pretend to be uninvolved when the Republicans start making a mockery of limited government.
What about the social side?

The Libertarian Party has a cute little test that purports to divide American politics into four quadrants. There's the economic dimension (where libertarians ally with conservatives) and the social dimension (where libertarians ally with liberals).

I think the diagram is seriously misleading, because visually it gives equal importance to both dimensions. And when the rubber hits the road, libertarians almost always go with the economic dimension.

The libertarian philosopher always starts with property rights. Libertarianism arose in opposition to the New Deal, not to Prohibition. The libertarian voter is chiefly exercised over taxes, regulation, and social programs; the libertarian wing of the Republican party has, for forty years, gone along with the war on drugs, corporate welfare, establishment of dictatorships abroad, and an alliance with theocrats.


For the purposes of my critique, however, the social side of libertarianism is irrelevant. A libertarian and I might actually agree to legalize drugs, let people marry whoever they like, and repeal the Patriot Act. But this has nothing to do with whether robber baron capitalism is a good thing.

The problem with markets

[snip]

Libertarian responses to such lists are beyond amazing.
* "Businesses would be stupid to do those things." Then they're stupid, because they do them. Private racial discrimination, for instance, lasted a hundred years; and it wasn't ended by businessmen changing their minds, but by blacks and liberals organizing. The Libertarian Party platform actually hopes to legally re-enable private discrimination.
* "The market will correct those problems." In a few cases it will-- if you wait long enough. But very often it's simply impossible: e.g., the monopolist has made sure no alternatives exist. (One of the railroad tycoons, for instance, was careful to buy up steamship lines.) And though it was sometimes possible to break a monopoly by starting a well-bankrolled competing business, that was no consolation to (say) an oil producer who saw Rockefeller consolidating all the refineries. He could hardly start up his own refinery, and he'd be bankrupt before anyone succeeded in doing so.)

Slavery is another example: though some hoped that the market would eventually make it unprofitable, it sure was taking its time, and neither the slave nor the abolitionist had any non-governmental leverage over the slaveowners.

(Libertarians usually claim to oppose slavery... but that's awfully easy to say on this side of Civil War and the civil rights movement. The slaveowners thought they were defending their sacred rights to property and self-government.)
* "We believe in laws too." And they do, rather touchingly; they just don't believe in enforcing them. Enforcement of the laws passed by democratic legislatures is called "men with guns" or "initiating force" in libertarian ideology. And without enforcement, laws are just pretty words. You can see this today in Latin America, which often has very progressive laws. The business and landowning elite just ignores them.
* "So what do you want, state-run movie theaters?" The single-villain ideology is so strong that the only response some people can make to a market failure is to invent a statist response and criticize that. Sometimes the best solution to these problems is to use the market-- once it gets a good liberal kick in the pants to go find one.

And those are the better responses. Often enough the only response is explain how nothing bad can happen in the libertarian utopia. But libertarian dogma can't be buttressed by libertarian doctrine-- that's begging the question.
Government costs money

Perhaps the most communicable libertarian meme-- and one of the most mischievous-- is the attempt to paint taxation as theft.

First, it's dishonest. Most libertarians theoretically accept government for defense and law enforcement. (There are some absolutists who don't even believe in national defense; I guess they want to have a libertarian utopia for awhile, then hand it over to foreign invaders.)

Now, national defense and law enforcement cost money: about 22% of the 2002 budget-- 33% of the non-social-security budget. You can't swallow that and maintain that all taxes are bad. At least the cost of those functions is not "your money"; it's a legitimate charge for necessary services.

Americans enjoy the fruits of public scientific research, a well-educated job force, highways and airports, clean food, honest labelling, Social Security, unemployment insurance, trustworthy banks, national parks. Libertarianism has encouraged the peculiarly American delusion that these things come for free. It makes a philosophy out of biting the hand that feeds you.


[snip]

Finally, it hides dependence on the government. The economic powerhouse of the US is still the Midwest, the Northeast, and California-- largely liberal Democratic areas. As Dean Lacy has pointed out, over the last decade, the blue states of 2004 paid $1.4 trillion more in federal taxes than they received, while red states received $800 billion more than they paid.

Unacceptable morality

Ultimately, my objection to libertarianism is moral. Arguing across moral gulfs is usually ineffective; but we should at least be clear about what our moral differences are.

First, the worship of the already successful and the disdain for the powerless is essentially the morality of a thug. Money and property should not be privileged above everything else-- love, humanity, justice.

(And let's not forget that lurid fascination with firepower-- seen in ESR, Ron Paul, Heinlein and Van Vogt, Advocates for Self-Government's president Sharon Harris, the Cato Institute, Lew Rockwell's site, and the Mises Institute.)

I wish I could convince libertarians that the extremely wealthy don't need them as their unpaid advocates. Power and wealth don't need a cheering section; they are-- by definition-- not an oppressed class which needs our help. Power and wealth can take care of themselves. It's the poor and the defenseless who need aid and advocates.

Second, it's the philosophy of a snotty teen, someone who's read too much Heinlein, absorbed the sordid notion that an intellectual elite should rule the subhuman masses, and convinced himself that reading a few bad novels qualifies him as a member of the elite.

Third, and perhaps most common, it's the worldview of a provincial narcissist. As I've observed in my overview of the 20th century, liberalism won its battles so thoroughly that people have forgotten why those battles were fought.

It's hard to read libertarians without concluding that they've never been out of the country-- perhaps never out of the suburbs. They don't know what Latin American rule by the elite looks like; they don't know any way of running an industrial economy but that of the US; they don't know what an actually oppressive government looks like; they've never experienced a depression; they've never lived in a slum or experienced racial discrimination. At the same time, they have a very American sense of entitlement: a gut feeling that they've earned the prosperity they were born into, that they owe the community nothing, that they deserve to have whatever they want, that no one should stand in their way.

In short, they're spoiled, and they've evolved a philosophy that they should be spoiled.
The bottom line

"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." --Franklin D. Roosevelt

I have my own articles of faith. I think a political philosophy should

* benefit the entire population, not an elite of whatever flavor
* offer a positive vision, not just hatred for another philosophy
* rest on the best science and history can teach us, rather than science fiction
* be modified in the light of what works and what doesn't
* produce greater freedom and prosperity the closer a nation comes to it.

On all these counts, libertarianism simply doesn't stack up. Once people are able to be rational about politics, I expect them to toss it out as a practical failure and a moral mess.

Also relevant, but I'll leave it to someone else to excerpt (that, or just quote Charlie's excerpting): the same author on the 20th century and liberalism.
 
I just want to add that Mark's got a bunch of really good essays/editorials on his site. Lots of insight into the downfall of liberalism and the rise of conservatism. His writing is full of wit and easy to digest. Be sure to peruse them.

I'm really curious how Libertarians respond to it after reading and digesting his points in full. Personally? It crystallized why I feel a connection with the Obama campaign: the idea that we're not on this planet to do right for ourselves.

edit: Kind of sucks that JayDub is banned. His response would have been epic :lol
 

ATF487

Member
I really don't think Libertarians even think that most of their goals are even remotely possible. They just want change in that direction.

For the purposes of my critique, however, the social side of libertarianism is irrelevant. A libertarian and I might actually agree to legalize drugs, let people marry whoever they like, and repeal the Patriot Act. But this has nothing to do with whether robber baron capitalism is a good thing.

And that's the whole reason I ever considered myself to be a Libertarian. I don't really anymore, after realizing how terribly unlikely its economic scenario is, but I just want those freedoms he listed. Sadly, both major parties would never probably get any of those done

To me, the economic end of it is essentially "I don't want to pay taxes because it seems like I get very few tangible benefits for doing so."
 

delirium

Member
It seems to me, his definition of libertarianism is more in like with anarchy.

One of his points was a libertarian wants to dream of ridding of government. I doubt many libertarian wish the gov't away completely.
 
delirium said:
It seems to me, his definition of libertarianism is more in like with anarchy.

One of his points was a libertarian wants to dream of ridding of government. I doubt many libertarian wish the gov't away completely.

He said as much that those types of Libertarians are at the extremes.
 
CharlieDigital said:
edit: Kind of sucks that JayDub is banned. His response would have been epic :lol
wait what? how did this happen? he may be at odds with almost everybody at politics but he was hardly ever rude enough to be banned.
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
delirium said:
It seems to me, his definition of libertarianism is more in like with anarchy.

One of his points was a libertarian wants to dream of ridding of government. I doubt many libertarian wish the gov't away completely.

To an extent he does argue against a strawman; but he acknowledges it and quickly moves to attack examples of libeterianism in the 19-20th century.

Even a partial move towards libertarianism is not a move towards an optimal progressive society that betters the situation of the majority (while not leaving the minority behind!)
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
If you go to the logical end of any parties supposed base precepts, they are insane. :p

Libertarianism has had a problem of way too many whack-jobs making headlines though. Its really hurt the party.



Their current offering, Bob Barr, is pretty normal though, quite moderate. If anything, he's advocating real change (unlike Obama, who for the most part is really just advocating change from Bush - which certainly IS needed - but isn't really straying very far from traditional Democrat ideas imo).

He actually used to be a republican, but got sick of the direction the party was going in. In reality, the main changes he wants to make are simply involving true fiscal conservatism, which has obviously completely dissolved in the current republican party.



I don't know that much about him, but he certainly has some decent ideas. Its ridiculous he isn't invited to the debates. Obviously he has no chance in winning, but its always good to have alternative voices heard. People should bitch more about this, otherwise we will ALWAYS be stuck with a 3-party system.
 

FoneBone

Member
Hazmat said:
Feel safe making this while JayDubya is banned, eh?

Why, because DIRTYSOCIASLISTLIBRUL GAF is so thoroughly pwn3d every time he posts? What are you talking about? I wish he were around (well, I'm sure he is "around," but able to post) for this.
 
my name is ed said:
wait what? how did this happen? he may be at odds with almost everybody at politics but he was hardly ever rude enough to be banned.

Trust me, it got ugly. Total meltdown of his usual level headed self in the previous PoliGAF thread after the Obama speech.

I suspect he's torn and maybe part of him sees some promise in Barack; but maybe I'm just overanalyzing :D
 

Hazmat

Member
FoneBone said:
Why, because DIRTYSOCIASLISTLIBRUL GAF is so thoroughly pwn3d every time he posts? What are you talking about? I wish he were around (well, I'm sure he is "around," but able to post) for this.

Heh, didn't mean any offense. Count me among DIRTYSOCIASLISTLIBRUL GAF, It's just funny that he's banned when a thread called "What's wrong with libertarianism" gets made.
 

FoneBone

Member
Hazmat said:
Heh, didn't mean any offense. Count me among DIRTYSOCIASLISTLIBRUL GAF, It's just funny that he's banned when a thread called "What's wrong with libertarianism" gets made.
ah, alright, sorry. :D
 
As a former Libertarian, I'd say their biggest problem is that they believe that a completely unrealistic theoretical reality can somehow be realized.

They would be far better off working on achieving truly divided government with real checks and balances. When our government is in that state, far less money is wasted and government becomes much more constrained.

Funny thing is so many Libertarians view Republican rule as somehow 'less evil' than any other status, but if you look at the Republican-dominated era of 2001-2006, it's hard to imagine any less "Libertarian" government in our society for at least the better part of a century.

These are misguided people. I know. I was one.
 
I read the article and it really just reinforced my position amidst moderate liberarianism; also, does anybody know for how long JayDubya is banned? I really would like to see his response to the article, and if he's not banned for more than a few days, it might be possible.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
beermonkey@tehbias said:
As a former Libertarian, I'd say their biggest problem is that they believe that a completely unrealistic theoretical reality can somehow be realized.

They would be far better off working on achieving truly divided government with real checks and balances. When our government is in that state, far less money is wasted and government becomes much more constrained.

Barr actually seems to fit that mold.


If anything, I don't think he really believes in the theoretical end to begin with. Regardless, even in what he'd LIKE to see happen, he acknowledges it can't realistically happen even in two terms.

He'd simply rather fix what can be fixed, and not pretend to be on some mission to create utopia.


Funny thing is so many Libertarians view Republican rule as somehow 'less evil' than any other status, but if you look at the Republican-dominated era of 2001-2006, it's hard to imagine any less "Libertarian" government in our society for at least the better part of a century.

As I mentioned, the problem is that recent republicans have been anything but fiscal conservatives.

The idea that libertarians view republicans as less evil is based on the assumption that republicans are fiscal conservatives. I would assume most libertarians if asked about the current republican party, would find them as bad (maybe worse?) than the democratic party. At least the democratic party is generally trying to get the government to gtfo out of many social issues. The republican party has turned into big brother, and spends like a trophy wife.
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
CharlieDigital said:
Trust me, it got ugly. Total meltdown of his usual level headed self in the previous PoliGAF thread after the Obama speech.

I suspect he's torn and maybe part of him sees some promise in Barack; but maybe I'm just overanalyzing :D

and that was BEFORE the Palin pick.

Godspeed Obama. Clean the dirt of liberalism; help bring about the cognitive dissonance of otherwise smart people like Jaydubya.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Can someone explain what cognitive dissonance one would expect Obama to bring in JayDubya?

I'm trying to understand this ...
 
Onix said:
Can someone explain what cognitive dissonance one would expect Obama to bring in JayDubya?

I'm trying to understand this ...

I'm not quite sure I understand it myself, but how else to explain going off the way he did? If Obama was just as shitty as every other non-Libertarian politician before him, why get so riled up?

Crayon Shinchan said:
Lowering taxes? :p That affects his bottom line directly?

That too :D

My guess is he's kind of torn. How can any logical, reasonable person not find Obama intellectually sexy as fuck? He's a staunch Libertarian, but he finds aspects of Obama -- the person and the platform -- that he agrees with.

But maybe I'm just imagining things and overanalyzing as well :D
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Crayon Shinchan,

Ah ... so he's selfish; doesn't really care about his beliefs with respect to all? :p


Maybe he should be a libertarian (even if Ayn Rand supposedly washed her hands of them - they were obviously based on objectivism).
 

Gildor

Member
The process of giving life to our constitutional rights has largely been the work of liberals. On the greatest fight of all, to treat blacks as human beings, libertarians supported the other side.
(Libertarians usually claim to oppose slavery... but that's awfully easy to say on this side of Civil War and the civil rights movement. The slaveowners thought they were defending their sacred rights to property and self-government.)

Why bring up these follies of libertarians of the past? Maybe we should also bring up that Lincoln freed the slaves and he was republican so therefore republican is the right party.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
CharlieDigital said:
I'm not quite sure I understand it myself, but how else to explain going off the way he did? If Obama was just as shitty as every other non-Libertarian politician before him, why get so riled up?

I didn't actually read the meltdown, so I have no idea.


I was just curious why someone would assume he's torn. If he really has given thought to the policies of the republican party, and decided it most closely fits his leanings, I can't see where Obama said much to sway him. Obama's rhetoric is hardly at odds with traditional democratic doctrine.

Certainly, he's one of the greatest orators of our time, but if JayDubya really is serious on his policy beliefs, a chrome-plated turd shouldn't sway him.


:\
 
Gildor said:
Why bring up these follies of libertarians of the past? Maybe we should also bring up that Lincoln freed the slaves and he was republican so therefore republican is the right party.

What recent history do we have to go by? What -- of any significance -- have Libertarians done in the last quarter century? In the last half century? What has the Libertarian movement done right and what have they contributed to the betterment of society?
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
Gildor said:
Why bring up these follies of libertarians of the past? Maybe we should also bring up that Lincoln freed the slaves and he was republican so therefore republican is the right party.

The republican party of Lincoln's time isn't the republican party of today.

Hell, the south attempted succession from the north because of it.
 

Gildor

Member
CharlieDigital said:
What recent history do we have to go by? What -- of any significance -- have Libertarians done in the last quarter century? In the last half century? What has the Libertarian movement done right and what have they contributed to society?

I have no idea, just thought it was silly to bash a political party on it's supposed views 50 or 150 years ago.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
CharlieDigital said:
What recent history do we have to go by? What -- of any significance -- have Libertarians done in the last quarter century? In the last half century? What has the Libertarian movement done right and what have they contributed to the betterment of society?

There's no answer to that, since they've never been in a place to do anything.


Not saying I really agree with them, but the above illustrates the problem we have with our current two-party system.
 

Gildor

Member
Crayon Shinchan said:
The republican party of Lincoln's time isn't the republican party of today.

Hell, the south attempted succession from the north because of it.

Maybe the libertarian party of the past isn't the libertarian party of today. That was my point.
 
Gildor said:
I have no idea, just thought it was silly to bash a political party on it's supposed views 50 or 150 years ago.

I wouldn't say that Mark "bashed" it. He deconstructed the movement from its roots and took it from there. If you cannot make claims against it based on it's history 150 years ago, then they also cannot invoke the Founding Fathers for it because, you know, that was more than 150 years ago :lol
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
Gildor said:
Maybe the libertarian party of the past isn't the libertarian party of today. That was my point.

But they still believe in a bunch of dumb shit, and probably wouldn't have progressed very far with civil rights without liberals to push the envelope.
 
Onix said:
There's no answer to that, since they've never been in a place to do anything.

Read the whole essay. Just because it hasn't been implemented (fully) in the US doesn't mean that it's principles haven't been applied elsewhere in the world with dreadful results.

Besides, the essay cites the political and economic environment of the early 20th century as the best example of what a Libertarian society would look like in the US. If you haven't read the whole thing, it's really worth reading.
 

Macam

Banned
Snowman Prophet of Doom said:
I read the article and it really just reinforced my position amidst moderate liberarianism; also, does anybody know for how long JayDubya is banned? I really would like to see his response to the article, and if he's not banned for more than a few days, it might be possible.

Don't worry, he'll bump the thread when he's able to return. But if you have any concerns, just throw up the Bat signal and make a post saying that you drive single mother-to-be's to Planned Parenthood for fun on the weekends. He'll be here in no time.

I'll slog through the original article at some point, so thanks for the linked material.
 

Gildor

Member
CharlieDigital said:
I wouldn't say that Mark "bashed" it. He deconstructed the movement from its roots and took it from there. If you cannot make claims against it based on it's history 150 years ago, then they also cannot invoke the Founding Fathers for it because, you know, that was more than 150 years ago :lol

Fair enough.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
CharlieDigital said:
Read the whole essay. Just because it hasn't been implemented (fully) in the US doesn't mean that it's principles haven't been applied elsewhere in the world with dreadful results.

Besides, the essay cites the political and economic environment of the early 20th century as the best example of what a Libertarian society would look like in the US. If you haven't read the whole thing, it's really worth reading.

Yeah, haven't read it yet. I'll do so in the morning.



What I meant however, is that if you take the doctrine of any of the parties to their logical end, its pretty much always disastrous. In general, the most parties members are far more moderate.

As I stated earlier, the libs have had a history (including recent history) of extremist whack-jobs getting a lot of press, and that's obviously hurt them. If you look into Barr though, he's quite moderate. I think they are finally, as a party, moving to what the others parties have mode to. ie. sane ground.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
I dont know about 'your' libertarians, seeing as US and EU terminology is so different - but 'our' libertarians call taxes theft and any redistribution of wealth is tantamount to fascism. They do not, however, want to get rid of the state completely. They still expect everyone to pay taxes (a flat taxrate, or even a fixed monthly fee with no regard to income, mind you) but they only want to spend on:

a) Military
b) Police


Presumably so that everyone in society can join in and happily protect these libertarians wealth.

I think they are hypocrites. But i still agree with them on individual freedoms. Every man IS an island.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
jorma said:
I dont know about 'your' libertarians, seeing as US and EU terminology is so different - but 'our' libertarians call taxes theft and any redistribution of wealth is tantamount to fascism. They do not, however, want to get rid of the state completely. They still expect everyone to pay taxes (a flat taxrate, or even a fixed monthly fee with no regard to income, mind you) but they only want to spend on:

a) Military
b) Police


Presumably so that everyone in society can join in and happily protect these libertarians wealth.

I think they are hypocrites. But i still agree with them on individual freedoms. Every man IS an island.

That's how most libs here view things as well.

They do want stuff like a military, police, fire, infrastructure (roads, etc) ... and typically want it paid either via a flat tax, or a usage tax.
 
Anything more than paying 10% of total income is tyranny. The highest tax bracket is 35%. I would be really pissed off if I spent 4 months of the year paying for the government with all its abuses and wasteful spending. Pork Barrel spending, wasteful foreign policy, etc.

Also, you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you're not hurting anyone. You want to marry someone of the same sex? Fine. You want to have 10 wives? OK. You want to marry a snake? Why the fuck do I care?

Capitalism is about everyone having an equal opportunity. No subsidies for businesses, no tax loopholes, no fascist-type government-corporate relationships, unions of workers should be allowed, as should unions of business owners.

If someone wants to run a welfare system then that's fine, they should do it. But you shouldn't use my tax money to run a welfare system that I may not approve of. Same with pretty much all unnecessary government spending.

One of the most libertarian countries right now is Hong Kong and they have historically had a high level of economic success.

Edit: Also social security is a scam, and not just because it's being horribly mismanaged by politicians. The whole concept behind it is the government knows what to do with my money better than I do. If it was voluntary then I wouldn't really care but to force me to pay into this investment scheme is stealing.
(just a few rants I came up with after skimming this thread and that article in the OP)
 
Synth_floyd said:
Anything more than paying 10% of total income is tyranny. The highest tax bracket is 35%. I would be really pissed off if I spent 4 months of the year paying for the government with all its abuses and wasteful spending. Pork Barrel spending, wasteful foreign policy, etc.

Do you pay taxes? Have you ever done your own taxes? Do you know how tax brackets work? Do you?

Also, you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you're not hurting anyone. You want to marry someone of the same sex? Fine. You want to have 10 wives? OK. You want to marry a snake? Why the fuck do I care?

The funny thing is how the Libertarian movement has aligned itself with the Republicans. Does not compute if you want to talk about individual and civil liberties.

One of the most libertarian countries right now is Hong Kong and they have historically had a high level of economic success.

lawlz
 

FoneBone

Member
Stoney Mason said:
speculawyer and jaydub are currently banned so this thread I envision will be a Gaborn bashing...
Speculawyer doesn't seem to fit into the category addressed by the essay (did you bother to read the intro?), and picking on Gaborn is like... well, fish, barrels, et cetera.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
Onix said:
That's how most libs here view things as well.

They do want stuff like a military, police, fire, infrastructure (roads, etc) ... and typically want it paid either via a flat tax, or a usage tax.

I find it extremly weird that the argument 'Why should i have to use my hard-earned money to pay for their wellfare (education, maternityleave, etc etc)' is perfectly fine, but if you counter with "well in that case why should i have to pay for your military or your policeforce - i would rather we spent it on something else", that is somehow not a valid argument.

Either way - its all very hypothetical because they have no real political power where i live. They do tend to get a lot more media than they deserve, probably because a libertarian columnist get a lot more hits since people love to hate on them. Swedish libertarians have very thick skin, i'll give them that. But also very thick skulls :p
 

reilo

learning some important life lessons from magical Negroes
Synth_floyd said:
Anything more than paying 10% of total income is tyranny. The highest tax bracket is 35%. I would be really pissed off if I spent 4 months of the year paying for the government with all its abuses and wasteful spending. Pork Barrel spending, wasteful foreign policy, etc.

Also, you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you're not hurting anyone. You want to marry someone of the same sex? Fine. You want to have 10 wives? OK. You want to marry a snake? Why the fuck do I care?

Capitalism is about everyone having an equal opportunity. No subsidies for businesses, no tax loopholes, no fascist-type government-corporate relationships, unions of workers should be allowed, as should unions of business owners.

If someone wants to run a welfare system then that's fine, they should do it. But you shouldn't use my tax money to run a welfare system that I may not approve of. Same with pretty much all unnecessary government spending.

One of the most libertarian countries right now is Hong Kong and they have historically had a high level of economic success.

Edit: Also social security is a scam, and not just because it's being horribly mismanaged by politicians. The whole concept behind it is the government knows what to do with my money better than I do. If it was voluntary then I wouldn't really care but to force me to pay into this investment scheme is stealing.
(just a few rants I came up with after skimming this thread and that article in the OP)

I wish I knew in what utopia you live in!

Even communism is a GREAT theory, with all of that "equality" jazz and what not, but by hell, that shit sure don't work in practice, now does it?

Libertarianism is the exact opposite of communism, but both are just as equally absurd.
 

zon

Member
jorma said:
I find it extremly weird that the argument 'Why should i have to use my hard-earned money to pay for their wellfare (education, maternityleave, etc etc)' is perfectly fine, but if you counter with "well in that case why should i have to pay for your military or your policeforce - i would rather we spent it on something else", that is somehow not a valid argument.

Either way - its all very hypothetical because they have no real political power where i live. They do tend to get a lot more media than they deserve, probably because a libertarian columnist get a lot more hits since people love to hate on them. Swedish libertarians have very thick skin, i'll give them that. But also very thick skulls :p

We have libertarians in Sweden? What!?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom