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When the hell is Don't Ask Don't Tell going to die a painful death?
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Gaborn said:
There is nothing Obama could about DOMA even if he were President. The majority of voters support DOMA, so there is no incentive for the President to ask Congress to repeal the law. From a tactical point of view, Obama's best bet would probably be to hope the judges he appoints to the Supreme Court eventually strike down DOMA. If I were a politician who cared about getting elected, I wouldn't touch DOMA with a ten foot pole. Sad, but it's political reality.
Mercury Fred
Banned
This is how I feel about forcing gay people to lie about themselves in order to serve their country.Cooter said:
lawblob said:
Which is why no Democrat should receive support from gays over this issue. Either grow a spine and actually support real rights or shut the hell up. I don't care what he SAYS about gay rights, he can have all the pretty lies and the pretty statements he wants, the fact is at the end of the day he's done no more and no less than Bush on this issue. It's the same with Clinton really, Bill and Hillary. Bill was elected promising to end discrimination against gays in the military, and he left us with DADT. they're weak willed pseudo supporters of gay rights.
Gaborn said:
I don't know if I would go so far as to say Democrats shouldn't receive support from gays just because Dem politicians aren't willing to sacrifice their entire career just to make a small demographic happy. It would be presumptuous to say gay people should only support politicians willing to promote all 'gay rights' issues. Some people might actually want to vote for politicians who have a chance of attaining the office of President.
Gaborn said:
Not the same thing. I'm sure girls have tickle fights and compare breast sizes at sleep-overs, but do you think they would behave the same if one of the girls was a lesbian (not really a good example because I'd assume if she was at another girl's sleepover then they're comfortable enough to where they were sure there was no attraction... but hopefully you get the point of this hypothetical)?
How about this one. Your roommate asks you for a bag of your poop. Before you found out he was a scat freak you weren't very anal about your poop, but afterward you double triple check to make sure your not leaving any floaters. Him deriving that kind of pleasure from you without your permission is a violation. It demeans the object of that infatuation.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Yes, I think something along the lines of "grow the fuck up" works for me.Cooter said:
Love To Love You Baby
Member
Dali said:
Discrimination shouldn't be justified because certain people want to feel a "brotherhood." That argument has been used to justify both racism and sexism. The purpose of the military isn't to be an old gentlemen's club where straight white men can feel like "brothers" - it's to defend and serve our country.
Kicking someone out of the military because some straight men feel like a gay person is ruining their "brotherhood" is absurd. Your ability to smack some other straight guy's ass is not more important than my ability to keep my job.
Dali said:
And it's been shown that soldiers can, and will, adapt - there is no evidence that it leads to more anti-gay harassment.
PhoenixDark
Banned
Cooter said:
Eh. I've been on swimming team with gay people (and coaches) and never had this problem. Most people realize that blatant glances are a no no and act accordingly. When was the last time someone stared at your junk in a restroom for instance? It rarely happens because everyone knows that's just an invitation to an ass kicking
krypt0nian
Banned
Aurvant said:
OK joke chara confirmed. Everyone go home.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Yes, that's exactly the same thing.Cooter said:
lawblob said:
That's why I said "over this issue," because in PRACTICE Obama is really no different than Bush or McCain on gay rights (well, Bush I'll grant you because of the FMA). Obama's RHETORIC is nicer, but in practice he's unwilling to do anything with it.
Dali - My waste product stays with me without a warrant. Still though, I understand what you're saying, I'm just saying that a lot of the reticence is in your MIND. After all, they behaved the way I described WHILE I WAS THERE AND OPENLY GAY.
Love To Love You Baby
Member
Cooter said:
Actually, there was a study done on this exact issue and it found that 93% of military personnel already bathe individually, if I'm remembering correctly.
Mercury Fred said:
If one man was showering with a group of lesbians it would be the exact same thing. One person is attracted to the majority while the majority has no interest in that one person.
The only difference with straight men and women is that they are both in to to each other.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Which gym do you go to?Cooter said:
Essentially what your argument boils down to is my childish discomfort > adult people's right to serve their country.
Saint10118
Member
Mercury Fred said:
/thread.
krypt0nian
Banned
Aurvant said:
Are you 12 year old?
Gaborn said:
Well no physical harm is being done so I completely agree with you that the problem arises from within one's own mind... so is the modesty that leads women to cover up their goods in front of men and vice versa... so is any sort of idea of right and wrong, what is a personal violation and what's not, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored. But hey I'm not in the armed forces nor do I plan on it, and if surveys say the soldiers themselves don't mind killing the policy then by all means they should do it. If the stat about showers was accurate that's only more reason to get rid of it.
I am glad we understand each other though.
Love To Love You Baby
Member
Another thing, Dali - I've had relationships with straight men, at work even, that were similar to your working situation - a lot of joking around, etc. I don't see why gay men and straight men can't get along?
Dali said:
Yeah, but the thing is, in our society almost nowhere are men and women permitted to shower together. I can't think of anyplace where the artificial distinction between gay and straight men is known (let alone enforceable) for the purpose of showering though. I mean, I've got no doubt in my mind you've showered with multiple gay men as it is.
Still though, to your larger point, what happens if a new recruit didn't think about communal showers and just flat out refuses to do it? No allowances are made, or should be made for modesty in that case, I can't see why people uncomfortable with gay men being in the shower THIS TIME with them should be accomodated.
I love this ridiculous "A gay man will be instantly attracted to any straight man in his presence". Get the f**k over yourselves! You're not unique, you're not special, you're not amazing. I can't speak for the obnoxious "hit on anything that walks" types, but most people know how to act. Not to mention how picky/shallow/excluding a lot of gay guys can be regarding their "types", you'd be surprised how "unattractive" you'd rank to them.
That would mean the percentage of gay dudes in the population is astronomical as I've never been in a crowded communal shower. Anyway, as I said earlier, ignorance is bliss. Take my scat freak hypothetical for instance. The roommate would have been much happier not knowing he had to be extra mindful of floaters.Gaborn said:
No accommodations are made for modesty, with a straight guy who has a problem being naked around other straight guys, because the entire group is assumed to be the same.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
You got my point.Gaborn said:
You're much more likely to see a straight man accost a woman, then see a gay man do the same to a straight guy.
By "moves" I meant sexual advances. And has been said gay men are more likely to be worried about getting their asses kicked when putting the moves on a straight guy, then a guy is worried about getting his ass kicked putting the moves on a woman.
I've been hit on by gay men before. It's never went any further then "Thanks for the compliment, but I'm straight." Meanwhile, straight guys won't give up. My gay friends might have crushes on straight men, but it's like not they are going to rub on the guy at the club.
Straight men aren't as considerate to women as gay men are to straight men.
methane47
Member
krypt0nian said:
Yep.. I didn't say one was harder than the other.. or one is worse than the other... I'm just saying they are VERY different strifes.. and they should be treated as such
krypt0nian said:
they are apples and oranges.... Just because you SAY they are alike doesn't actually make it true. For one... Blackness/whiteness is a physical characteristic. While homo/hetero-ness is an emotional attribute.
Green Shinobi
Banned
Die in a fucking fire, fortified_concept. I'm not the slightest bit homophobic, nor was my argument really a homophobic argument, unless pragmatism is now homophobia.fortified_concept said:
Green Shinobi
Banned
So that's the gist of your argument, basically? That gays in the military should be allowed to come out because all the straight people get to talk about their girlfriends and wives?krypt0nian said:
That isn't a very compelling argument when on the other side you consider that a fuckton of soldiers just don't want to know that their squadmates are gay, and that we should always consider the needs of the many before the needs of the few.
The military isn't like every other profession in the world. You have large groups of men living, eating and fighting together. They're supposed to build fraternal camaraderie as a unit. And the fact is, a lot of those soldiers would rather not know that the guy next to them is gay.
I definitely disagree with gay soldiers getting kicked out if they accidentally get discovered though.
Edit: I love how any time you disagree with a gay person or disagree about this policy, you get labeled a homophobe. Fucking brilliant.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Based on what?methane47 said:
Imo, this is a bullshit argument that does a complete disservice to enlisted people's ability to deal. Most people that I've met who have been in the armed forces are cool as fuck and have no issues with gay people.Green Shinobi said:
methane47 said:
So all the gays are lying? It's just a big conspiracy? OBVIOUSLY we chose this. Of course so! That's why GAY TEENS ARE FOURTEEN TIMES MORE FUCKING LIKELY TO KILL THEMSELVES THAN STRAIGHT TEENS.
Why are we having this discussion? The opinions in this thread are just sad, come on GAF.
No reputable and well sourced scientific evidence has come out in the last 10 years saying that homosexuality is a choice, or is determined solely on the basis of nurture. All studies now are focusing on a combination of the two, genetics as well as womb studies, which are proving to be more substantial. But, as we pretty much don't know how sexuality works anyways, it's going to be a long time until we find what "causes" gayness.
And gay men can't be in combat with their straight peers? Bullshit. Only FOURTEEN countries in the world don't allow gays to serve in the military. Oh great, we're on a list with fucking Iran and Saudi Arabia. Yeah, that's great.
All of Europe allows LGBT person to serve (bar Russia, but they basically can serve so I didn't count them in the fourteen), even Poland, one of the most homophobic countries in the world. Hell, gays can even serve in India! There have been NO problems relating to unit cohesion, and if anything, units can serve better because gay members can at least be honest about who they are and spouses back home (and stop with this parading around crap. How many times have you heard some guy talk about his girlfriend or some hot chick? I guess that's not parading around because it's "socially acceptable", right?). But no, gay men just URGE to rape men in the shower, right? We're in the military already, but guess what, we're not raping anyone, we just can't be honest about who we are and are forced to go back in the closet.
GAF, I'm seriously disappointed. I expected better of you.
Green Shinobi said:
So because it works perfectly well in other countries, it's just going to fall apart in the military? If these guys have also never met another (openly) gay person before, don't you think they're opinion might, I dunno, change if they came to terms with one of their squad mates being gay? And let's be frank: gays are pretty much serving openly in the military right now, no one really has seen any less "unit cohesion", and servicemen who know gay men and women in military are more likely to agree with the repeal of DADT.
methane47
Member
Mercury Fred said:
Based on the discussion that has no place in this thread. This thread was about why DADT exists.. to bring up whether or not homo/hetero-ness is a genetic unchangeable attribute does nothing but to distract people from the real point at hand.
Man you folk get soo defensive... Grow up man... All I said is that Homo/hetero-ness is not as definite as the physical attributes such as skin color..
Are you gonna disagree with me? ...
Mercury Fred
Banned
Nice cop out.methane47 said:
methane47
Member
Mercury Fred said:
I gave some reasoning on previous pages .... Not a cop out.. but it seems like when in any sort of corner pro-gay folk will bust out with the... ITS GENETIC!!!!! OMG ITS GENETIC!! ITS OK!!!! argument... which really does nothing for the argument we are having.... Does it?
Green Shinobi
Banned
If I saw clear evidence that showed that a sizeable majority of soldiers would have no problem serving with an openly gay squadmate, my opinion would probably change.ivysaur12 said:
And I'm not talking about 51%. It needs to be a big majority, like 75% or more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A0GdR2LlKo&feature=relatedLelielle said:
The problem is that attitudes change after the fact. Look at what's been previously posted about the change in attitudes in the British military, when homophobic attitudes and activities decreased after the policy change.Green Shinobi said:
Right before Truman integrated the Armed Forces, the Department Of Defense did a now-declassified study, which showed that 69% of white troops were definitely opposed to the idea of complete integration of the armed forces.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Actually, no.methane47 said:
fortified_concept said "Homosexuality like colour is not a choice," to which you responded "I respectfully disagree."
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