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Where are the games with pre-rendered backgrounds?
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
nkarafo
Member
REmake has great lighting.
It's not optimal enough for the industry anymore in terms of cost/design constraints vs polygonal copy+pasta with processing prowess doing all the work for visual fidelity.
Off-topic (from other threads), I laugh inwards every time that someone asks for REmake in 16:9. Do you even pre-rendered!?
Off-topic (from other threads), I laugh inwards every time that someone asks for REmake in 16:9. Do you even pre-rendered!?
"Upping the quality" is exactly what you have the problem with - the original sprite artist also works on those mobile versions, and surprise, her style in high-res looks amateurish to Western players after 10 or 15 years of amateur games in high-res trying to copy it.
Reactions would probably be similar for "redrawn HQ backgrounds". They're either going to add detail and not be as vivid and iconic, or leave detail levels the same and look sparse and like uninspired fanart you've already seen.
Baten Kaitos was beautiful for this reason.
Damn, a Baten Kaitos HD Collection would be so nice.
Yes! I too clamor for the return of prerendered backgrounds.
Just compare FFIX to FFXIII. The latter has lifeless corridors seen from over the shoulder, while the former has rich, vibrant landscapes seen from different angles.
Look at how beautiful these are, even being ultra low resolution:
Don't forget about the high resolution FFIX backgrounds thread. Most of these were probably rendered ~1999 for the PS1. Imagine doing it in 2014 for the PS4.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=551612
Beautiful.
I loved how in these prerendered games, the camera just pans a little while the character model gets smaller or larger as they move about the screen. It seems more cinematic from the mostly fixed camera angles.
What's sad is that modern consoles can do above this level of rendering in real time. But unique static angles are a lost art in the modern era. We have stupid over the shoulder the whole game. Static angles with slight camera panning is so much more attractive.
Run up these stairs at this angle:
And then you are presented with this unique view:
Or you can stare at Lightning's behind most of the game in modern titles:
http://hardandsoftgaming.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ffxiii_screen_corridor.jpg
And they have less detail to boot in modern games. Look at all the little items around the house in FFIX:
The exception I have seen is Heavy Rain. It does not use prerendered backgrounds, but it often uses static angles that allows a little more detail on the backgrounds. It has that prerendered style.
http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/p3/h/e/heavy-rain-playstation-3-ps3-357.jpg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/sho...ion-3-screenshot-scott-shelby-private-eye.jpg
Just compare FFIX to FFXIII. The latter has lifeless corridors seen from over the shoulder, while the former has rich, vibrant landscapes seen from different angles.
Look at how beautiful these are, even being ultra low resolution:
Don't forget about the high resolution FFIX backgrounds thread. Most of these were probably rendered ~1999 for the PS1. Imagine doing it in 2014 for the PS4.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=551612
Beautiful.
I loved how in these prerendered games, the camera just pans a little while the character model gets smaller or larger as they move about the screen. It seems more cinematic from the mostly fixed camera angles.
What's sad is that modern consoles can do above this level of rendering in real time. But unique static angles are a lost art in the modern era. We have stupid over the shoulder the whole game. Static angles with slight camera panning is so much more attractive.
Run up these stairs at this angle:
And then you are presented with this unique view:
Or you can stare at Lightning's behind most of the game in modern titles:
http://hardandsoftgaming.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ffxiii_screen_corridor.jpg
And they have less detail to boot in modern games. Look at all the little items around the house in FFIX:
The exception I have seen is Heavy Rain. It does not use prerendered backgrounds, but it often uses static angles that allows a little more detail on the backgrounds. It has that prerendered style.
http://image.jeuxvideo.com/images/p3/h/e/heavy-rain-playstation-3-ps3-357.jpg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/sho...ion-3-screenshot-scott-shelby-private-eye.jpg
Thommunist
Member
I just bought a copy of Baten Kaitos Origins yesterday and I'm gonna play it in Dolphin tomorrow. Can't wait to see those delicious pre-rendered backgrounds in 1080p!
Dragon1893
Member
This is all that needs to be said on the matter.
The development budget for PS1 level FF JRPGs is in the tens of millions already. Making those kinds of games with current day quality would probably push the budget even higher.yeah.. i REALLY want a new Final Fantasy in the vein of the PS1 games, imagine 1080p backgrounds with 60fps battles, classic FF with a worldmap and everything. why can't it happen?would make perfect sense IMO, maybe as a downloadable title. the budget wouldn't have to be ridiculous like with the FFXIII games (at least the first one must have been really expensive for SE to make)... SE could have a team that makes classic style high-fidelity FFs as downloadable games every 2-3 years, and another team that makes the newer ones with new battle systems etc.
oh well, i can dream.
SQEX outsources the iOS (& other) ports, they aren't spending any workforce (other than maybe a couple of director/producer type people) of their own on those.
You can bitch about FFXIII having linear corridors, but lifeless or ugly they are not.
Besides, those pre-rendered backgrounds are often just as linear & constricting, if not even more, as FFXIII's environments. There's a world map and towns, which gives it the kind of openess that XIII is lacking.
But the main thing that is appealing in pre-rendered bg's is the fixed camera angle, allowing devs to create really moody and atmospheric scenes.
came in here to say this, spot on my friend
As I've argued before, pre-rendered backgrounds (or at least fixed cameras) help create an illusion of non-linearity by allowing your mind to fill in the blanks off-screen. The linearity of FFXIII is laid bare by the free, over the shoulder camera.
Anyway, sign me up for a pre-rendered renaissance, a second pass at the PS1 era style on handheld would be fantastic.
This looks like my cup of tea. Thank you so much.
No prob. One thing to bear in mind:
Try the demo. Try the demo. Try the demo.
For the love of God try the demo first!
Square Enix's Chaos Rings series all have gorgeous hand drawn backgrounds.
Yup, I wish more games used fixed camera angles.
I agree. The PSX FF games are very linear, but the art style hides it. FFXIII would have benefited from fixed backgrounds, at least for the first 10 chapters or so.
I was a little harsh on it, but the fact is screens like this actually exist in FFXIII:
http://hardandsoftgaming.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ffxiii_screen_corridor.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/4/44/Vile_peaks_in-game.jpg
Every screen in FFIX has little unique details added to it. This is just repeating textures.
To be fair, most corridors do add detail:
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/0/9133/1300276-hopebacktakeslead.jpg
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/e/e9/Gapra_whitewood_exit.jpg
The Mountain Path in FFIX is somewhat linear. But the angles and detail are superb and make it far more attractive, imo:
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120611224940/finalfantasy/images/1/19/CondePetieExit.png
http://static3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120611225056/finalfantasy/images/e/ed/MountainPathRoots5.png
http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120611225022/finalfantasy/images/9/99/MountainPathTrail1.png
http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120611225022/finalfantasy/images/9/95/MountainPathTrail2.png
http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120611225023/finalfantasy/images/c/c7/MountainPathTrail3.png
http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120611225023/finalfantasy/images/b/bc/MountainPathRoots1.png
Sometimes FFXIII does it right though:
http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/6/63/Sunleth_Waterscape_FFXIII.png
Overall XIII was rushed and that's a big problem, but I don't see why linear games can't go for the static camera angles. At least until Pulse, it would have improved the visuals imo.
Yeah I watched some videos and it doesn't look THAT good. I'll try the demo first haha.
Thanks for the drive by trolling. Good to add another no-nothing to the list.
Realistic lighting with pre-rendered BG's is much easier since it's baked in and more resources can be used to go to lighting the character model and shadows. Now a days they could even do some tricks to make dynamic source lighting since the backgrounds themselves are not resource intensive. REmake had lots of reflections and little animated details which is similar in idea and scope.
Baten Kaitos was beautiful for this reason.
That doesn't look good at all though. The characters stick out and looks pasted ontop of the background and the perspective looks weird.
The problem with pre-rendered is that it offers zero room for scaling for the future.
REmake looks great, but it's still a 4:3 game with backgrounds rendered at 512x448 that have compression artifacts.
But with the wonders of Dolphin you can do some stuff that I figured you might appreciate, like dumping the background textures as well as getting a close up look at the models like you had said you wish you could do. You should check out dolphin!
The dude saying the lighting has to be bad is a big jamoker. The lighting looks great
REmake looks great, but it's still a 4:3 game with backgrounds rendered at 512x448 that have compression artifacts.
But with the wonders of Dolphin you can do some stuff that I figured you might appreciate, like dumping the background textures as well as getting a close up look at the models like you had said you wish you could do. You should check out dolphin!
The dude saying the lighting has to be bad is a big jamoker. The lighting looks great
You guys are right. . . The feeling of an amazing world filled with wonders from old RPGs are from Pre-Rendered Backgrounds. I realize this just now what modern RPGs are missing. I want PRBG back!!! No doubt with modern tech, they will be even more amazing. One example of using new technology I just thought of is using the Oculus Rift. Since you are playing and RPG, you don't have to be in First Person View as the character. Instead, you can be an observer who controls the character and witness the story unfold.
Like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggMdCwwgnFo
Or this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SquTtHtpe-U
The panoramic view can be pre-rendered and you can pan around even if it is on a normal screen set up.
It is good to dream. . .
Like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggMdCwwgnFo
Or this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SquTtHtpe-U
The panoramic view can be pre-rendered and you can pan around even if it is on a normal screen set up.
It is good to dream. . .
With today's processing we don't need pre-rendered backgrounds, you can do the same thing with static camera's.
Of course most gamers (and developers no doubt) see that as a step back so its not guna happen.
Eternal Sonata is a game which looks almost pre-rendered at times even though its not.
Of course most gamers (and developers no doubt) see that as a step back so its not guna happen.
Eternal Sonata is a game which looks almost pre-rendered at times even though its not.
Glass Rebel
Member
Because as far as graphically intensive games go there are no benefits these days and any improvements in character models would only make it more jarring when the characters clash with the backgrounds.
That's not really true though.
Until we reach a point where graphics processing is at the point where it's indistinguishable from reality or we are capable of rendering worlds in real time that look exactly as we want in every possible case, there can always be a benefit to pre-rendered graphics.
Also, it assumes that the characters will clash with the backgrounds, but if the pre-rendered art is done well enough then it absolutely wouldn't clash.
Project Eternity.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Another very important plus side of real-time is that you can keep tweaking it until the very end, because you are not using a lot of time rendering every time.
ZeroMaverick
Member
This is what I miss the most from previous generations. Those pre-rendered backgrounds just completely change the entire dynamic.
My guess is that it costs more money and time? An artist has to do each one by hand. But even then, I might be wrong.
I wish I was an indie developer. I would just make all of my games with pre-rendered backgrounds.
My guess is that it costs more money and time? An artist has to do each one by hand. But even then, I might be wrong.
I wish I was an indie developer. I would just make all of my games with pre-rendered backgrounds.
Because Pre-rendered is indistinguishable from reality ?
Most of the pre-rendered backgrounds we have seen in games have been very low res so its not like they were perfect.
A current gen game would have to have 4k backgrounds (or higher if they were scrolling), to future proof themselves and that's a lot of work.
francisnobleman
Banned
Baten Kaitos was beautiful for this reason.
Came here for this.
I'd like to see this in HD on Wii U.
Pre rendered backgrounds are useless outside of some very certain types of games (like Bastion or Muramasa).
The issues with pre rendered backgrounds
1) You cannot have any sort of movement in the environment think of God of War, or the building collapsing in Uncharted 2 or the plane or ship in Uncharted 3. Where the scenery, environment and objects keep moving which causes variance in shadows and lighting, and how it affects the animation of the characters.
2) Zero interactivity, if you think games these days have no interactivity anyway then you are wrong. Environment interaction will be absolute zero if they have pre rendered backgrounds.
3) Day night cycles, you cannot have say for example a level where the time of day or lighting conditions change as you progress through the level.
4) Fixed camera angles, if you thought games like God of War and Castlevania Lords of shadows have fixed camera then you are in for a shock since these games have a scripted camera that moves along with the player, with pre rendered backgrounds you'll have the game throw a blank screen (even if for a 5th of a second) at you every time you enter a new area no matter how fast that new area is loaded, it cannot be seamless as they are two different backgrounds.
5) The characters would stick out like a sore thumb because of how they are lit when compared to the lights in the backgrounds, since none of them affect the characters, so they would have to manually lit the characters depending on each scene and even then it'd look out of place.
6) It's a pain to create these super detailed environment especially when you consider how much time and money it takes to create the real time environments. This is the entire reason why developers focus on real time effects for everything instead of baking some things into the texture. For example you have a scene which you create and then render offline now imagine that the art director is unhappy with it, which means they have to redo every thing again and again until he finds it to be fit. With real time you can just do it at a click of a button and you see the change immediately.
The issues with pre rendered backgrounds
1) You cannot have any sort of movement in the environment think of God of War, or the building collapsing in Uncharted 2 or the plane or ship in Uncharted 3. Where the scenery, environment and objects keep moving which causes variance in shadows and lighting, and how it affects the animation of the characters.
2) Zero interactivity, if you think games these days have no interactivity anyway then you are wrong. Environment interaction will be absolute zero if they have pre rendered backgrounds.
3) Day night cycles, you cannot have say for example a level where the time of day or lighting conditions change as you progress through the level.
4) Fixed camera angles, if you thought games like God of War and Castlevania Lords of shadows have fixed camera then you are in for a shock since these games have a scripted camera that moves along with the player, with pre rendered backgrounds you'll have the game throw a blank screen (even if for a 5th of a second) at you every time you enter a new area no matter how fast that new area is loaded, it cannot be seamless as they are two different backgrounds.
5) The characters would stick out like a sore thumb because of how they are lit when compared to the lights in the backgrounds, since none of them affect the characters, so they would have to manually lit the characters depending on each scene and even then it'd look out of place.
6) It's a pain to create these super detailed environment especially when you consider how much time and money it takes to create the real time environments. This is the entire reason why developers focus on real time effects for everything instead of baking some things into the texture. For example you have a scene which you create and then render offline now imagine that the art director is unhappy with it, which means they have to redo every thing again and again until he finds it to be fit. With real time you can just do it at a click of a button and you see the change immediately.
That looks good obviously, but it's just one have one image with no lightning and the other with lightning and they just alternate between the two. Pick any game from last generation and you'll see how different the lighting and shadows look and move for lightning strikes when compared to the RE make images you posted.
Kagoshima_Luke
Gold Member
Attack of the Friday Monsters uses prerendered backgrounds.
It's not the best game ever, in my opinion, but it looks charming.
It's not the best game ever, in my opinion, but it looks charming.
Bravely Default is your new bg art king. Though it's a mix of 3D enviroments and 2D texturing.
While I wouldn't call the art style in BD bad by any means, I definitely like PSX style pre-renderings like in Legend of the Dragoon and FF VII-IX better. Of course, that's just my opinion.
Glass Rebel
Member
You're only focusing on graphics while completely ignoring that games with pre-rendered backgrounds offer very limited environmental interactivity and also limit your ability for dynamic environments. That's why you only see them in games like Bastion, Bravely Default or Pillars of Eternity where these draw-backs don't matter.
This isn't necessarily true, especially for graphics. Character graphics are definitely in house for TAY and FF5, FF6 is an open question.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
This one you can actually have
edit: It is worth mentioning (maybe because is an early built?) that this is limited as the shadows do not actually move with the sun's position.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
Love me some good pre-rendered environments. Can't wait for Pillars of Eternity.