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[nkarafo]

That the real time 3D backgrounds are why we have Code Veronica HD? Because real time backgrounds are more versatile and can be upscaled?

I don't agree with the premise that the game is made deliberately worse only to help future developers make an HD version 10 or 20 years later, if ever. I prefer each game to be as good as possible when released. And for Code Veronica i think it would be better, since they are using fixed cameras, to use pre-rendered as it would make it look much better, probably, i don't know. I'm just spoiled by REmake. That game looks amazing and i'm glad they made it this way then, even if they can't upgrade the backgrounds in HD now.

Now, i would love to see a REmake 2, made in the same style as REmake, with new backgrounds, new rooms and areas, etc.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

FFIX's art is jaw dropping. Particularly Terra/Branbal & Memoria.

 

[Roto13]

I don't agree with the premise that the game is made deliberately worse only to help future developers make an HD version 10 or 20 years later, if ever. I prefer each game to be as good as possible when released. And for Code Veronica i think it would be better, since they are using fixed cameras, to use pre-rendered as it would make it look much better, probably, i don't know. I'm just spoiled by REmake. That game looks amazing and i'm glad they made it this way then, even if they can't upgrade the backgrounds in HD.

I never said they definitely did or definitely didn't use real time backgrounds specifically so they could be unscaled later. I said they wouldn't have been able to upscale it if they hadn't.

 

[NeoUltima]

It is kind of sad how often I think about this.

 

[Jack Scofield]

I'm playing Ocarina of Time 3D and I forgot how often they use prerendered backgrounds in indoor areas. I agree. It should make a comeback.

 

[nkarafo]

I said they wouldn't have been able to upscale it if they hadn't.

Ok, So they are able. But is that so important to you? I think this is where we disagree. Personally, i don't care.

I mean, aren't you glad that REmake exists? Would you prefer a game like Code Veronica (with slightly upgraded graphics since the GC is more powerful that DC) instead? Did you play it back then and said to yourself "damn, developers won't be able to upgrade it in HD in many years from now"... I don't know, i was too busy drooling over my screen to think about what developing problems a possible HD version would cause in future generations...

 

[Glass Rebel]

I agree and like i said i also prefer the real time 3D present/future. I do like interactivity, heck i even hate cinematic games... However, once in awhile i have the desire to play something like REmake. But mostly, i am curious to see how would a game like that look today (with all the 3D rendering being used for 3D models). Plus, its a different style. Its not a matter of being better or worst. Its different.

Sure, I'm just saying that apparently nobody with the means to use pre-rendered backgrounds is very interested in using it for the types of games you're interested in.

 

[NotMyRealName]

Guess I was wrong about the lighting. I remember screenshots showing Chris in front of a lit window with no shadow cast. Must have been an alpha build or something.

 

[nkarafo]

Guess I was wrong about the lighting. I remember screenshots showing Chris in front of a lit window with no shadow cast. Must have been an alpha build or something.

Uuuum, actually, you are right about this one. At this one scene, the shadow of the character didn't cast as it should. I remember it bothered me also. It was during the storm, the light was from the lightings outside. I think that light was prerendered and they just forgot to put a light source for the body to cast a real time shadow at that particular scene. But it was just this scene and maybe a couple of others that weren't as noticeable. Most of the time though, the lighting is great.

BTW, problems like this exist in real time 3D games too. Not all games have great lighting, not in all games light sources cast real time shadows.

 

[TyrantII]

When I say interaction I also mean stuff like bending blades of grass, leaving ripples in water puddles etc. you want your character to appear as physically present in that word. Are there any examples of this in games?

You could easily do this with a mix of per-rendered and 3d objects. It be much less resource intensive than needing a 360 deg, full 3D representation.

I don't believe it's specifically been done, but REmake did make use of 3D objects placed seamlessly with the pre-rendered backgrounds to give off ambiance. They did reflections, mirrors, and water effects really nicely; all played well between the BG's and the models.

And lets not pretend this isn't new tech currently in 3d world games thats taken a long time to mature. Many games still can't afford the performance hit of physics and hitbox detection and have baked in animated effects. Or worse, just flat out non-interactive brush and foliage. Interactiveness in sandbox games and corridor shooters is very overrated. Especially in the slide of using cheaper tricks rather than use new power to push simulation (AI, fluids, & physics simulation, ect)

In the end, again, just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it can't. The problem isn't f technical limitation but that no one wants to make these sort of games.

 

[Mulgrok]

I think a big problem with modern games is they are zoomed in so close to the characters that all resources are spent rendering characters in great detail instead of the surroundings, like in the past.

I know you developers spend a ton of time and effort creating these characters for us to become attached to... but ya'll are going past the point of diminishing returns and hurting the products as a whole.

 

[suzu]

Man, sometimes I really miss pre-rendered backgrounds and the fixed camera angles. They looked so good.

 

[SonyToo!™]

This thread has really got me hyped to see how those kickstarter games turn out on a 1080p screen.

Hopefully more indies can make use of pre renders as a cheap way to go 3D, it sure is a very artistic way of going about it, just what many indies are going for.

 

[SpecialAgentZ]

I didn't know Baten Kaitos. I'm very interested in this game now!

I heard the name before, but thought it was some hack'n slash stuff like Platinum's games (IDK why lol).

Is the game good? Worth playing? How does it compares to some JRPGs I like, like FFIX, Xenoblade, FFVII and Skies of Arcadia? (better than this, worse than that, etc).

 

[sn00zer]

But the main thing that is appealing in pre-rendered bg's is the fixed camera angle, allowing devs to create really moody and atmospheric scenes.

I disagree as many games can use an uncontrollable camera to give some incredible results....ie. God of War series.... dynamic uncontrollable camera> fixed camera

 

[teh_pwn]

Some higher budget console games use pre-rendered in engine videos and scenes, and I suspect some mix them within gameplay (like Uncharted series). It's more discrete and effective than a background that's 100x more detailed than in game models.

 

[bsp]

Forgetting Broken Age?

Looks gorgeous.

 

[sn00zer]

We need more games with a "fixed" dynamic camera

 

[Sealion88]

gotta say REmake still looks great. I miss pre rendered backgrounds too...

 

[TheContact]

I think ff7 did it best

 

[Roto13]

Ok, So they are able. But is that so important to you? I think this is where we disagree. Personally, i don't care.

I'm so very very happy for you.

 

[ido]

I loved the look of pre-rendered backgrounds.

It's certainly not for every type of game, but I wouldn't mind some new JRPGs done like this. Despite the limited interactivity, I always had a greater sense of immersion and imagination.

 

[qualitydisc]

The Black Tower (upcoming for PC) looks like it could scratch that nostalgia itch. From what I've read, they're specifically insprired by PS1 rpgs.

 

[CrackPebbles]

Pre rendered backgrounds and fixed camera angles are awesome, fuck a right stick.

 

[Feep]

This thread has really got me hyped to see how those kickstarter games turn out on a 1080p screen.

Hopefully more indies can make use of pre renders as a cheap way to go 3D, it sure is a very artistic way of going about it, just what many indies are going for.

Well, it's going well for us. = D This is early stuff, but we're using 2-D painted backdrops with invisible 3-D geometry for shadows and whatnot in There Came an Echo.

 

[Slayer-33]

Bring them back please

 

[NeoGash]

If Telltale Games started using them, they might be able to make a game that looks almost as good as a PS2 game. Not saying definitely, but they might be able to. I would welcome it in games like those from Telltale. Gamefreak should use them as well, as 3D is obviously a bit too complicated for them.

 

[Alo81]

If Telltale Games started using them, they might be able to make a game that looks almost as good as a PS2 game. Not saying definitely, but they might be able to. I would welcome it in games like those from Telltale. Gamefreak should use them as well, as 3D is obviously a bit too complicated for them.

?

 

[pottuvoi]

I would certainly love to see new properly made game with pre-rendered/non player movable camera,
There are so many things one can do when viewpoint has limited movement.
Especially if most lighting has precomputed attributes.

Moving lights are as easy to do as in any deferred renderer, same goes to shadows.
Although in case where you can pre-calculate and know exactly where moving objects can be, one can do some silly things in addition. (lights, shadows, reflections, GI, voxelization tricks.. so on.)

 

[Footos22]

RIP Onimusha, my sweet prince

*sheds tear*

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think the only argument for this is framing, really, rather than something actually being rendered to a superior quality. If you're willing to sacrifice the dynamic elements of 3D (or otherwise sort out all the hacks and fixes required to overlay real-time lights with pre-rendered backgrounds) then you can still do all this with pre-baked lighting. But, re: the framing, the important thing there is a fixed camera rather than a pre-rendered background. Having actual pre-rendered backgrounds is just an expensive way to work.

 

[klier]

The point of pre-rendered backgrounds is to make backgrounds with higher fidelity than is possible in real-time.

The fidelity possible now in real-time is very high.

Therefore, pre-rendered backgrounds would have to be of an even greater fidelity to justify their use.

This would require a ton of meticulous detail work.

And all for something that is non-interactive.

I can see why no one is pursuing this.

I don't think you get it. When you don't have to render detailed backgrounds, you can use more power for the character models and enemies (or whatever).

I'd love to see a REmake style game on PS4. Character models would be unreal...

 

[nkarafo]

I'm so very very happy for you.

Ok, whatever dude, you are not a very pleasant person to converse with...

I'd love to see a REmake style game on PS4. Character models would be unreal...

Yes and we didn't even have the chance to see how something like this would look on PS3 and 360 yet (on a good budget at least). After skipping a whole generation it would indeed look unreal on a PS4.

 

[pottuvoi]

I think the only argument for this is framing, really, rather than something actually being rendered to a superior quality. If you're willing to sacrifice the dynamic elements of 3D (or otherwise sort out all the hacks and fixes required to overlay real-time lights with pre-rendered backgrounds) then you can still do all this with pre-baked lighting. But, re: the framing, the important thing there is a fixed camera rather than a pre-rendered background. Having actual pre-rendered backgrounds is just an expensive way to work.

You can use same lighting method as you would on any 3D game as long as you have needed data. (albedo, normal, roughness.. etc)

 

[Jawmuncher]

It is a bit odd that no one has really tried prerendered backgrounds this gen.
All they would need to do is make high quality assets that could easily be downgraded or upgraded depending on their needs. Personally I think that someone should take the chance on one of the many digital platforms we currently have.

 

[RaikuHebi]

Needs to return alongside cinematography.

I feel more escapism with them than most of the souless 3D environments, barring a few exceptions (Naughty Dog).

Been playing FFX HD last 2 weeks and they're just so damn beautiful.

 

[TheVampire]

So if the backgrounds / world is pre-rendered does that mean it's less taxing on the frame rate?

Like its just one big picture your player model is moving around in?

 

[Forever Giraffe]

I always thought Code Veronica's graphics and camera were excellent. The mostly fixed camera maintained the same cinematic feel of the early Resident Evil games, but the realtime graphics allowed for subtle movements that enhance the effect even further. Its been a long time, but I remember many rooms using pans or rotations that revealed more of your surroundings as you advanced. I'd love to see a game use that style again.

 

[nkarafo]

So if the backgrounds / world is pre-rendered does that mean it's less taxing on the frame rate?

Like its just one big picture your player model is moving around in?

Basically, yes, you save up all the geometry and different textures of the whole scene, except of the 3D models (characters, enemies, movable objects, etc). But the idea is not to make the game less taxing but to use the polygons you saved up in order to make the characters and enemies even more detailed while still having a good looking environment at the same time, but with fixed camera position only (and limited interactivity). In previous generations the idea was simply to make incredible looking backgrounds that couldn't be done in 3D due to limited power.

The end result can be something like REmake. A very early game on GC that still looks great today and doesn't have to rely on cell shaded cartoony graphics to do so. Of course this can only be good for certain games and genres. A GTA game with pre-rendered backdrops would be the worst idea because these games rely on the freedom of movement and the interactivity of the game world.

 

[ComedyCurtis]

Pre-rendered backgrounds 101: FFVII-IX, In Cold Blood and REmake. Pure beauty and massive boost to the potential of other graphical fidelities.

 

[CyclopsRock]

You can use same lighting method as you would on any 3D game as long as you have needed data. (albedo, normal, roughness.. etc)

Well, yeah and no. Only if you're doing relatively simplistic lighting (and I mean "relative" here - relative to the sort of stuff that takes ages to render offline). Specular highlights and "roughness" aren't enough - "roughness" is caused by a light having a proper area to it, rather than an infinitely small point as per old dynamically lit games. It's not a uniform value - the level of "roughness" varies with both distance from the light and distance from the occluding object to the surface upon which the shadow sits (and if this is anything other than a floor or a wall, you need that geometry in the scene, too). You also have problems with using specularity rather than proper reflections - if you limit your pre-rendered backgrounds to only using lighting that's possible in real time, then a) why not just do it in real time and b) you're going to end up with renders that look worse than the ones from the PS1 era REs and FFs demonstrated in this thread.

Just a thought, if by "roughness" you mean the nature of the terminator on a surface, that's still only the tip of the iceberg.

In short, you'll always have a descrepancy between what's possible in engine and what's desirable in the pre-rendered backgrounds - if you didn't, there'd be no benefit in doing the pre-rendering.

 

[androvsky]

Needs to return alongside cinematography.

I feel more escapism with them than most of the souless 3D environments, barring a few exceptions (Naughty Dog).

Been playing FFX HD last 2 weeks and they're just so damn beautiful.

I thought FFX only had a few prerendered backgrounds.

Slightly surprised no one's brought up Ar Tonelico Qoga. The cities were all prerendered backgrounds and it was a PS3 game so it was all in HD.

 

[RaikuHebi]

I thought FFX only had a few prerendered backgrounds.

Slightly surprised no one's brought up Ar Tonelico Qoga. The cities were all prerendered backgrounds and it was a PS3 game so it was all in HD.

Says it all really. They are few, yet they are so strikingly memorable.

Pre-rendered backgrounds 101: FFVII-IX, In Cold Blood and REmake. Pure beauty and massive boost to the potential of other graphical fidelities.

Wow this In Cold Blood sounds really cool, I'll have to give that a try sometime.

 

[pottuvoi]

Well, yeah and no. Only if you're doing relatively simplistic lighting (and I mean "relative" here - relative to the sort of stuff that takes ages to render offline). Specular highlights and "roughness" aren't enough - "roughness" is caused by a light having a proper area to it, rather than an infinitely small point as per old dynamically lit games. It's not a uniform value - the level of "roughness" varies with both distance from the light and distance from the occluding object to the surface upon which the shadow sits (and if this is anything other than a floor or a wall, you need that geometry in the scene, too). You also have problems with using specularity rather than proper reflections - if you limit your pre-rendered backgrounds to only using lighting that's possible in real time, then a) why not just do it in real time and b) you're going to end up with renders that look worse than the ones from the PS1 era REs and FFs demonstrated in this thread.

I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about, but it sounds like you mistake my list of possible surface properties to shadow umbra/penumbra.

I certainly do not propose using only realtime solutions, using mostly pre-computed environments and light transport information has very nice advantages in simple scenes.

Light is additive, you can add realtime calculated lights on top of precomputed ones.
If you have stored enough lighting information and source locations you can quite easily add shadows of moving objects to scene.

More complex methods are possible as well, traditional pre computed radiance transport and light probe methods work as well.

 

[djtiesto]

I didn't know Baten Kaitos. I'm very interested in this game now!

I heard the name before, but thought it was some hack'n slash stuff like Platinum's games (IDK why lol).

Is the game good? Worth playing? How does it compares to some JRPGs I like, like FFIX, Xenoblade, FFVII and Skies of Arcadia? (better than this, worse than that, etc).

Well, Baten Kaitos is made by Monolith, like Xenoblade... while the first game isn't anything special, its prequel, Origins, is a wonderful game and definitely one of the best RPGs of last gen. The original BK though, it's slow-paced, sluggish (just wait for those dungeons where you're wading through mud/snow and moving at a pitiful pace), with a story that takes some time to pick up (it has some neat twists though) and voice acting that sounds like it was recorded with a tin-can/string phone.

 

[LogicStep]

A little part of me wants the Final Fantasy VII remake that's bound to happen one day to be a very true-to-the-original remake that isn't free-camera 3D but uses prerendered backgrounds like the original.

The only way it should happen.

 

[Oriel]

No longer justified or needed with today's high powered graphics processors. I'd rather have full immersive three dimensional camera movement than a static 2D image.

 

[Discomurf]

 

[thesaucetastic]

Well, Baten Kaitos is made by Monolith, like Xenoblade... while the first game isn't anything special, its prequel, Origins, is a wonderful game and definitely one of the best RPGs of last gen. The original BK though, it's slow-paced, sluggish (just wait for those dungeons where you're wading through mud/snow and moving at a pitiful pace), with a story that takes some time to pick up (it has some neat twists though) and voice acting that sounds like it was recorded with a tin-can/string phone.

The first one's my favorite. But I can't disagree with any of this. I still think the first is compelling enough for you to at least give a shot.

 

[Riposte]

I was going to make this thread at some point. I'm surprised how rarely it comes up given the problem with game budgets. I'm genuinely curious if makes for big savings or not.