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[James Sawyer Ford]

Doesn't matter if Killzone is ancient. It was a AAA game from Sony.

I mean, it does because it released a decade ago and AAA games how get larger budgets and resources and Horizon was a bigger hit

Knack, Dreams and sackboy were full price so it must've been expensive to make.

That’s not how any of this works

Also, there is rumors circulating TLOU2 didn't make its money back. That is why naughty dog was making a GAAS game and remade TLOU part 1.

Tales out of someone’s ass you mean?

Days gone flopped that is why there is no sequel.

"According to former Bend Studio staffer Jeff Ross, Days Gone too sold over eight million copies within a year and a half of release but it was still portrayed as a disappointment."

that’s what I said

It flopped critically, not commercially.

If it was a big commercial flop the studio would have been shuttered

 

[Variahunter]

That’s the difference between most Japanese console games and occidental games.

When you look at it this way, most occidental games (minus the indies) are GaaS or single « narrative experience » that always uses the same tropes, even if there is exceptions. I even get tired of indies nowadays, they mostly seem to copy each other and their past favorite games which tend to be the same of course, or have the same artistic look and feel most of the time.

Then you have Japanese games :
- Dragon’s dogma 2
- Final Fantasy XVI (seems to be very good, after fifteen years of bad offline games, which started when they tried to focus on mainstream occidental market…)
- SF6
- Armored Core VI
- Granblue Fantasy
- DQ XII
- MGS 3 Remake
- Silent Hill 2 (yes I know, honestly the fact that it’s by Bloober IS the worrying thing… so it validates the argument)
- Pragmata
- Rise of the Ronin


And let’s not forget what already out :
- GG Strive
- DBFZ
- RE2, RE3, RE4
- MH
- Zelda TotK
- Elden Ring
- Sekiro

And that’s just on thoughts.

Not even counting AA games like DQ Remake or Live a Live etc… of course there is also plenty of bad AA Japanese fan service games… but at least it’s not their AAA games that are ruined.

That’s not to say that occidental games are all bad, of course, but a lot of them seem to have lost focus on what made their games great and different from Japanese games. I’m talking about games like :

- Thief
- Legacy of Kain
- Tomb Raider (when the player had to be precise and thoughtful, you know what games I’m talking about…)
- Ultima
- etc

Some seems to retain that spirit :
- Diablo 4 (well we’ll see about MTX… but seems good otherwise)
- Starfield (I believe in Todd, still seems passionate about his work)
- Baldur’s Gate 3
- Stalker 2

Those really are interesting, and we wouldn’t see those kind of games from Japanese developers. That’s what made them unique, but there’s so few ambitious occidental games like them nowadays. Most of them feel like they’ve been put in the mainstream washing machine before even being created.

Well I needed to vent after that disastrous PS showcase, can’t say I was impressed by what the occidental developers had to offer in this.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

That’s the difference between most Japanese console games and occidental games.

When you look at it this way, most occidental games (minus the indies) are GaaS or single « narrative experience » that always uses the same tropes, even if there is exceptions. I even get tired of indies nowadays, they mostly seem to copy each other and their past favorite games which tend to be the same of course, or have the same artistic look and feel most of the time.

Then you have Japanese games :
- Dragon’s dogma 2
- Final Fantasy XVI (seems to be very good, after fifteen years of bad offline games, which started when they tried to focus on mainstream occidental market…)
- SF6
- Armored Core VI
- Granblue Fantasy
- DQ XII
- MGS 3 Remake
- Silent Hill 2 (yes I know, honestly the fact that it’s by Bloober IS the worrying thing… so it validates the argument)
- Pragmata
- Rise of the Ronin


And let’s not forget what already out :
- GG Strive
- DBFZ
- RE2, RE3, RE4
- MH
- Zelda TotK
- Elden Ring
- Sekiro

And that’s just on thoughts.

Not even counting AA games like DQ Remake or Live a Live etc… of course there is also plenty of bad AA Japanese fan service games… but at least it’s not their AAA games that are ruined.

That’s not to say that occidental games are all bad, of course, but a lot of them seem to have lost focus on what made their games great and different from Japanese games. I’m talking about games like :

- Thief
- Legacy of Kain
- Tomb Raider (when the player had to be precise and thoughtful, you know what games I’m talking about…)
- Ultima
- etc

Some seems to retain that spirit :
- Diablo 4 (well we’ll see about MTX… but seems good otherwise)
- Starfield (I believe in Todd, still seems passionate about his work)
- Baldur’s Gate 3
- Stalker 2

Those really are interesting, and we wouldn’t see those kind of games from Japanese developers. That’s what made them unique, but there’s so few ambitious occidental games like them nowadays. Most of them feel like they’ve been put in the mainstream washing machine before even being created.

Well I needed to vent after that disastrous PS showcase, can’t say I was impressed by what the occidental developers had to offer in this.

In a nutshell, I think there's 3 main differences between western and japanese games and gamers.

Graphics/setting
Western skew to games that strive for realistic graphics (or at least earthy tones). So when you got that kind of focus, devs make earthy games with browns, real teams and players, real looking faces, real guns, and even skeletons and dragons try to be gritty and realistic-ish. When you got these kinds of confines, it's more limited what you can do.

Japanese games are the opposite. Anime, big bright colours, big head baseball, less blood

Competitive spirit
Aside from maybe fighting games, I have never in 40 years of gaming ever got the hint japanese games or gamers care much for MP. I dont think they even care about Coop MP. Most seem focused on SP. That's why shooters and sports sell so bad. On the other hand, western gamers have always been dogpiling each other playing games sitting beside each other since the Atari days

Genre
Probably due to being more diverse in ideas and MP, western gamers seem to enjoy playing a wider breadth of genres. You name it, they'll play it. Shooters, sports, racing, action, JRPGs, WRPGs, fighting, adventure, anime, turn based, RTS etc... Only they dont play are those obscure Japan games like dating sims, hentei games and weird shit like that.

Japanese games seem heavily focused on Nintendo games, JRPGs, Pokemon/Monster Hunter, SF (I think?). For whatever reason, they dont really care about other genres.

 

[intheinbetween]

Easy question: Jim Ryan

 

[Fabieter]

The player is asking for them

Today's count
1. CS:GO ~800K Concurrent players
2. DOTA ~365K Concurrent players
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
10. War Thunder ~60K Concurrent players

Thousands of games then:
The Last of Us ~1,360 Concurrent
God of War ~1,475 Concurrent
Uncharted ~300 Concurrent players
Sackboy ~50 Concurrent players

I played hundreds of hours in dota 2 and csgo and never payed a dimme besides the initial fee for cs.

 

[vkbest]

The kind of people who don't hang out on boards like this one. So like 95% of their consumer base.

95% consumer base when playstation plus required to play online is not even 50% consumer base?

 

[reksveks]

Another question that I have is how possible is it to beat the margin that they are currently getting already from third parties.

95% consumer base when playstation plus required to play online is not even 50% consumer base?

F2P games don't require PS+, right?

 

[rofif]

Of all the causes to take up for championing 30 fps had to be the most bizarre. Sixty fps is wonderful. It improves the gaming experience. Also, there's this thing called performance modes so games can have 30 and 60. I really wish you would stop making gamers out to be "newbs who just discovered 60 fps" because you guys sound rediculous. Console gamers have been hoping for more 60 fps games ever since we saw PC gamers having smoother experiences with less lag for years and years.

I'm a graphics whore too but wanting to get rid of 60 fps is absurd. That's what you're advocating for.

I don’t necessarily want to get rid of 60fps. I want to get rid of modes. Modes don’t have place on console

 

[Ar¢tos]

If they want MTX money, why don't they make a REALLY GOOD f2p LBP and LBP Karting?
Those printed money in the ps3 era.

Going after the extremely saturated shooter market seems very risky.

 

[Snake29]

I mean, it does because it released a decade ago and AAA games how get larger budgets and resources and Horizon was a bigger hit



That’s not how any of this works



Tales out of someone’s ass you mean?



that’s what I said

It flopped critically, not commercially.

If it was a big commercial flop the studio would have been shuttered

Days Gone was one of the best games for me! It was even better on the PS5.

 

[Fabieter]

If they want MTX money, why don't they make a REALLY GOOD f2p LBP and LBP Karting?
Those printed money in the ps3 era.

Going after the extremely saturated shooter market seems very risky.

Pretty much if they want any kind of success than going the generic way they are going will kill every single game. And I dont trust bungie to review unique good ones out of it. I expect them to give the go foe most milkable which will kill all of these games.

 

[Icymanipulator]

Because the market is demanding it based on sales and revenue. People complain online but clearly it’s nothing but a vocal minority. The masses seem to be OK with this. Vote with your wallet I guess.

Companies aren’t here to give people flowers and be your best friend and make your dreams come true. They want to make money, and if some games also happen to be good that’s just a bonus/side effect.

 

[j.k.2021]

Shareholders.All the top money makers are live service games.

 

[tomato shrub]

Street Fighter, FF16 and Armored Core can't come soon enough, I have enough of the bad vibes Jimmy and his shit showcase have made.

 

[LazyParrot]

95% consumer base when playstation plus required to play online is not even 50% consumer base?

Those new GaaS games are all going to be F2P, so you won't need PS+ to play them.

 

[PeteBull]

If they want MTX money, why don't they make a REALLY GOOD f2p LBP and LBP Karting?
Those printed money in the ps3 era.

Going after the extremely saturated shooter market seems very risky.

With GaaS genre it isnt about making really good of anything, they just want to spend lowest possible effort while maximize profits, 0 new content, tons of stupid mtx, most veteran players who started out in the 80s, 90s or hell even 2000s will never bite on that shit so devs/pubs only route is to somehow lure in new inexperienced younglings, u know, same stupid fuckers who donate to influencers they watching on twitch/youtube and think they getting something out of it xD

Luckily most of those ppl just want f2p ride and change their interest faster than Di Caprio changes his girlfriends, so 99,9% GaaS games fall big time and its harder to make any profit/be succesful than ever before.

U had pubg,fortnite, warzone, and before that overwatch(dead), 2(bombed),destiny 1(dead) and 2(still alive but dying/will die soon enough), u could count warframe too into succesful ones and apex, valorant, but beside that nothing thats alive and is holding well now, no?

The incentive is tho- pubs/devs still hope for catching that lighting in the bottle, not realising there wont be 2nd lighting in the bottle when market is so saturated already.

Same thing happened back in the days with hundreds of "WoW-killers", "Halo-killers" and "Cod-killers", hell we even had a phase for "GTA-killers" but those are actually ones i enjoyed and we got many good games from it(to not look far-saints row series-not that shitty woke reboot ofc), True Crimes, Mafia series, Sleepind Dogs,Watch dog 1 and 2(couldnt stand 3rd one;/) and even whole Yakuza series(not counting newest one that is turn based rpg ofc), Batman Arkham series too.

 

[Ronin_7]

Sony won't stop until they've their Fortnite, if you don't like this Direction I've bad news for you

 

[aries_71]

Who’s asking? Probably everybody below 20. Different generation, different tastes. That’s where the future money is.

 

[Ronin_7]

The player is asking for them

Today's count
1. CS:GO ~800K Concurrent players
2. DOTA ~365K Concurrent players
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
10. War Thunder ~60K Concurrent players

Thousands of games then:
The Last of Us ~1,360 Concurrent
God of War ~1,475 Concurrent
Uncharted ~300 Concurrent players
Sackboy ~50 Concurrent players

This Post nails it.

We're a minority, you Guy have to live with it.

 

[wolffy66]

Who's asking? Probably investors or those reporting to them basically

 

[Denton]

This Post nails it.

We're a minority, you Guy have to live with it.

That post is moronic. Comparing concurrent player numbers of MP games versus SP games is moronic.

I am really curious how many people are going to abandon the gaas games they already play (Counterstrike, Fortnite, LoL, Dota..) in order to play one of these new Sony ones. I doubt very many, since people are already invested in those games. Most of those players play one game and that's it.

Meanwhile singleplayer/story gamers are the ones buying more games, especially enthusiast ones.

 

[Moriarty1889]

I swear how is it every Western Dev makes the same GAAS game?

• Semi realistic cel shaded art style
• Overblown use of purple everywhere
• Always some 4 person "team up"
• Leader is black woman front and center. Usually a sniper and probably with an afro or extra points
• Usually some Philippino or Latino looking twink on the team- probably the "tech guy"
• White guy sometimes allowed - meek and not allowed to say anything
• No white women allowed
• Definitely have some character with some sort of "cool" looking mask. Which they will probably sell you as microtransactions
• Sell themselves on the personality of the cast who end up having no personality
• Piggybacking a social issue like they are a Twitter account in pride month
• Anti capitalist while making a game in literally the most exploitative genre

Do they all use the same consultant? Or maybe they all went to the same game design school

Spot on assessment. It’s the whole woke movement that is infecting everything including gaming. All the things you listed are part of that.

 

[tomato shrub]

Because the market is demanding it based on sales and revenue. People complain online but clearly it’s nothing but a vocal minority. The masses seem to be OK with this. Vote with your wallet I guess.

Companies aren’t here to give people flowers and be your best friend and make your dreams come true. They want to make money, and if some games also happen to be good that’s just a bonus/side effect.

The monthly "GaaS game has shut down after one quarter" thread would disagree.

This is like when Japanese developers and AA publishers were almost ceasing to exist, because they kept chasing that Call of Duty money on PS360. Guess what, people who wanted CoD kept playing CoD and never asked other publishers to drop the things they were much better at. Nowadays, the likes of Capcom, Sega, etc. might not be competing with GTA5, but they still released some of their most successful games ever, by simply excelling in their respective expertise.

Also, I will argue that PS4 won last generation, because Sony as a platform holder didn't just chase trends like sheep. They didn't have to invest in Last Guardian or Bloodborne, they were never gonna make big money. They didn't have to fund Kojima's weird mailman game. But they did and it gave them lots of goodwill from many different fanbases. Let's see where those wannabe-hip GaaS shooters will get Jim and Hermen, when they blow up in their faces. /shrug

 

[PeteBull]

Who’s asking? Probably everybody below 20. Different generation, different tastes. That’s where the future money is.

Those younglings below 20yo dont have much of disposable income, hence 99,9% of gaas games failing
Remember ppl who play GaaS cant play 10 of those games at the same time, they usually just play one, extensivelly, and with so many established already, not much room left for anything new.

 

[Ronin_7]

That post is moronic. Comparing concurrent player numbers of MP games versus SP games is moronic.

I am really curious how many people are going to abandon the gaas games they already play (Counterstrike, Fortnite, LoL, Dota..) in order to play one of these new Sony ones. I doubt very many, since people are already invested in those games. Most of those players play one game and that's it.

Meanwhile singleplayer/story gamers are the ones buying more games, especially enthusiast ones.

Imagine if Epic or Respawn didn't develop Fortnite and APEX because "who's gonna abandon their GaaS games to play this".

Lmao

 

[aries_71]

Those younglings below 20yo dont have much of disposable income, hence 99,9% of gaas games failing
Remember ppl who play GaaS cant play 10 of those games at the same time, they usually just play one, extensivelly, and with so many established already, not much room left for anything new.

I don’t disagree, but if you don’t own one of those established ones it’s legitimate to aspire to have one.

 

[ANDS]

The kind of people who don't hang out on boards like this one. So like 95% of their consumer base.

Post should have ended the thread. I legit wonder if a lot of the members on this forum actually look at what people are actually playing and not what they think people should be playing (honestly, how many of these "Who asked for this. . ." takes do we get a month). Go look at any top charts for platforms: GaaS titles that incentivizes repeatable content do gangbuster business. SONY has a killer single player infrastructure. . . why not leverage some of that creative into a space not known for it?

. . . like we know nothing about MARATHON other than the genre and it has style out the ass and doesn't look too be halfassing the approach to making a fun video game. At the end of the day isn't that what matters?

 

[Johnny Concrete]

I’ve got news for you: Sony is not making games for a couple of angry dudes on a gaming forum.

 

[Lunarorbit]

I can't wait until game developers swing back around and start making real games again after they fail over and over again with this service crap. Where the hell is the creativity and quality gone?

Yup. Headline 3 years from now when 3/4 of these gaas fail.

"We listened to the players. They wanted gaas obviously, it's not our fault it failed."

 

[The Alien]

Everybody wants that Fortnite money.

Like Fortnite or not, that game crabks out billions per month. The reality that all.these companies don't grasp is Fortnite, and a handful of other highly visible Gaas, are the exception not the rule. So all these companies chase and most will fail.

 

[Fahdis]

I don’t disagree, but if you don’t own one of those established ones it’s legitimate to aspire to have one.

I could make a thread about the IPs Sony already owns to turn it into amazing live service games.

 

[PectacularOz]

I am.
I am legitimately asking for a GAAS from Sony, but the right game.
I too often find myself between games and *wishing* I had a GaAs I was interested in being into and playing. Im a huge fan of the Horizon games, and am absolutely looking forwars to their GAAS.

 

[aries_71]

I could make a thread about the IPs Sony already owns to turn it into amazing live service games.

Somehow they don’t feel they are worthy? I don’t know, Sony is difficult to understand…

 

[Icymanipulator]

The monthly "GaaS game has shut down after one quarter" thread would disagree.

This is like when Japanese developers and AA publishers were almost ceasing to exist, because they kept chasing that Call of Duty money on PS360. Guess what, people who wanted CoD kept playing CoD and never asked other publishers to drop the things they were much better at. Nowadays, the likes of Capcom, Sega, etc. might not be competing with GTA5, but they still released some of their most successful games ever, by simply excelling in their respective expertise.

Also, I will argue that PS4 won last generation, because Sony as a platform holder didn't just chase trends like sheep. They didn't have to invest in Last Guardian or Bloodborne, they were never gonna make big money. They didn't have to fund Kojima's weird mailman game. But they did and it gave them lots of goodwill from many different fanbases. Let's see where those wannabe-hip GaaS shooters will get Jim and Hermen, when they blow up in their faces. /shrug

I agree with you, but there’s so much money being left on the table, and only one game really needs to be a “hit” to make up the costs of other games. It’s like how mobile revenue puts traditional game sales to shame. The amount of money some of these mobile games make is absurd and they reach numbers console games could only dream of for the most part.

Edit. On Kojima they definitely let the wacky guy do whatever because of his pedigree. They know his name will sell games. I don’t think they did that for any kind of good will, maybe as a side effect/bonus, but they certainly didn’t make that game with the intention to lose money with “goodwill” being their main motive. Business’s don’t operate like that.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

All I'm asking for Is a decent military third person shooter.

Like PUBG or Socom. But those f*****s are ignoring me.

 

[Nickolaidas]

Three GAAS trailers.

That's all it took to break GAF's spirit.

 

[Variahunter]

In a nutshell, I think there's 3 main differences between western and japanese games and gamers.

Graphics/setting
Western skew to games that strive for realistic graphics (or at least earthy tones). So when you got that kind of focus, devs make earthy games with browns, real teams and players, real looking faces, real guns, and even skeletons and dragons try to be gritty and realistic-ish. When you got these kinds of confines, it's more limited what you can do.

Japanese games are the opposite. Anime, big bright colours, big head baseball, less blood

Competitive spirit
Aside from maybe fighting games, I have never in 40 years of gaming ever got the hint japanese games or gamers care much for MP. I dont think they even care about Coop MP. Most seem focused on SP. That's why shooters and sports sell so bad. On the other hand, western gamers have always been dogpiling each other playing games sitting beside each other since the Atari days

Genre
Probably due to being more diverse in ideas and MP, western gamers seem to enjoy playing a wider breadth of genres. You name it, they'll play it. Shooters, sports, racing, action, JRPGs, WRPGs, fighting, adventure, anime, turn based, RTS etc... Only they dont play are those obscure Japan games like dating sims, hentei games and weird shit like that.

Japanese games seem heavily focused on Nintendo games, JRPGs, Pokemon/Monster Hunter, SF (I think?). For whatever reason, they dont really care about other genres.

Honestly I don't think your points are valid.

Yes anime style is often used by japanese developers, but let's not forget Capcom and all their games which are realistic (DD, MH, RE, DMC, Lost Planet etc), Square Enix (Final Fantasy, a series who always tried to be realistic with a touch of anime on their character, Vagrant Story), From Software also tends to be realistic looking with all their games (AC, Souls, Elden Ring, Bloodborne, Tenchu, Sekiro), Koei Tecmo (Dynasty Warriors, NioH, Ninja Gaiden), Konami (MGS, Castlevania LoS, Pro Evolution Soccer, Silent Hill, Keinsei Sacred Fist, Ronin Blade etc)...

Competitive :

They invented the competitive genre with Street Fighter 2 lol
They're just focused on the fighting game genre that's all. On the contrary, western developers only have Mortal Kombat (which is not a good fighting game mechanically, much more oriented for casuals gamers) and Killer Instinct (this one is good).
They don't like FPS so of course they won't develop games in this genre.

Honestly, aside from FPS, but not shooters (and that point could be countered with all the Arcade Shooters games like House of the dead, Silent Scope etc... even the Space shooters like Gradius, Axelay, R-Type), they also play and develop Baseball/Soccer games, racing (Ridge Racer, Gran Turismo, Auto Modelista), of course Fighting, Adventure (like a lot), JRPGs, Rythm games, survival-horror games... There a lot of Strategy games from Japan too (Nobunaga's Ambition, Kessen, Ogre Battle, Fire Emblem). Not much RTS though yes.

The only genre they don't like is FPS. To me, it's much more the western people who seems to dismiss most anime games aside from exceptions, space shooters, visual novel.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

I swear how is it every Western Dev makes the same GAAS game?

• Semi realistic cel shaded art style
• Overblown use of purple everywhere
• Always some 4 person "team up"
• Leader is black woman front and center. Usually a sniper and probably with an afro or extra points
• Usually some Philippino or Latino looking twink on the team- probably the "tech guy"
• White guy sometimes allowed - meek and not allowed to say anything
• No white women allowed
• Definitely have some character with some sort of "cool" looking mask. Which they will probably sell you as microtransactions
• Sell themselves on the personality of the cast who end up having no personality
• Piggybacking a social issue like they are a Twitter account in pride month
• Anti capitalist while making a game in literally the most exploitative genre

Do they all use the same consultant? Or maybe they all went to the same game design school

Not limited to GAAS but gaming in general:

Black male: Big tough guy. Deep voice. Carries a giant gun. Solider/brute

Black female: Loud hair. Extra edgy

Both: Never a character that is the brainy role. Background is grew up in the hood or similar poor area, talks loud and ghetto, if their family is mentioned it's never upper class or parents had good jobs etc...

 

[Fahdis]

Three GAAS trailers.

That's all it took to break GAF's spirit.

It will break yours too when the next time the showcase is 60% GaaS.

 

[sachos]

One things is for sure, they’re going to lose a lot of money on most, if not all of them.

The shitstorm when a couple of their GaaS drop playerbase by 80% by second week. It will be fun to read the comments at least.... Feel preemptively sorry for any dev working on a GaaS that has 95% chance of failing at this point.

 

[ergem]

I hope Sony continues with this GaaS initiative. They only need 1 or 2 successful GaaS games.

Look at how generous Epic has been because of Fortnite money. Free games on their store and funding single-player games left and right.

Do we hear Epic investing more in GaaS games because of Fortnite? The opposite is actually true. Epic knows that the market can only sustain so much GaaS.

 

[FunkMiller]

The shitstorm when a couple of their GaaS drop playerbase by 80% by second week. It will be fun to read the comments at least.... Feel preemptively sorry for any dev working on a GaaS that has 95% chance of failing at this point.

Lots of GAAS failure coming up in next few years. Certainly that Suicide Squad shit. Then a lot of these Sony games.

If Xbox was smart, they’d make a point of not pushing too much GAAS, and instead try to get those single player games out. That could change things.

 

[MALpractice311]

Three GAAS trailers.

That's all it took to break GAF's spirit.

If those had been balanced out with some Sony first party single player trailers, I don't think there would have been the same uproar. I don't care if other people want to play GAAS games, but don't take away my single player experiences to do it.

 

[Honey Bunny]

Trying to mandate this style of game is a recipe for disaster. Someone fucked up.

 

[Msamy]

as much as i love sony their really start to go in wrong direction even new naughty dog gaas game which supposed to do new things that will first time to ever happen in that category got delayed(maybe eventually canceled) because sony and bungie think that it will not bring enough money after years of its launch