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[Screaming Meat]

Also, I don't really know how you can "stomp" an entity that can't be killed. I suppose one could argue that Ozymandias stomped Dr. Manhattan intellectually (and that other villains could perhaps do the same) but I kinda doubt that's what the OP meant.

I thought "stomped" meant badly beaten not deaded? No one dies in comics but people get "stomped" all the time. I think a good ol' fashion non-brute force stomping is the best kind. Sue me for thinking outside the box.

As has been pointed out, Manhattan is an analogue of another character that already exists in DCU, and is far from unkillable.

Atom was a jumping off point for an entirely different character. They are world's apart in character. Manhattan embodies a far broader array of tropes and is more of a comment on character's like Atom.

Manhattan is positioned in Watchmen as a God, Captain Atom is still a man (as far as I know XD).

I disagree that it is as clean as you put it, at least that's certainly not how I remember it. He does influence events (from a flat, human perspective) in a way that is influenced by his ability to see the future. So the future, as seen by him, is taking an active part in influencing the past (which the future (and present) he saw/continues to see was always based on). I would instead describe it as being both at the same time, a paradox, though not so much for the god living it. Struggling to explain my perspective, but maybe the best way to put it is that he's self-aware he is a character in a story, although that fact and any fallout of it is just apart of the story.

By story do you mean he's aware he's part of a comic (Animal Man style) or just the flow of events? I never picked up on him directly breaking the fourth wall (doesn't mean it didn't happen), although the story pointedly makes a big deal out of one instance in the last panel. I think it being the only time it really happens makes it a more powerful closing.

Manhattan has, as far as I can tell, absolutely no control over events, at least not any more than any other character. It can't be emphasised how essential that is to his character and his arc.

Time is laid out before him, a series of events that always remain the same. Osterman becoming Manhattan and having those powers is a part of those events.

Time in Watchmen is strictly deterministic (is that the right word?) and we as a reader explore different attitudes to it throughout the story (the fatalism of nuclear war, the optimism of a better future, looking back at the past through a different lens etc). We are never given variables or alternate timelines. He can't change anything, he can just see it coming (and going... and as it's happening...). The Fatman always steps on the watch and the photograph always hits the sand.

His knowledge of future events comes from the fact that he views time at all points at the same time. Past, present and future is all one and the same to him. It's a subject Moore broached in From Hell. It's based (or so the stuff in the back of From Hell said) on Charles Hinton's 'What is the Fourth Dimension' and it posits that our experience of time is an illusion and that something like the Doc sees is closer to the objective truth. Here's the bit in From Hell (I think the guy in it is actually meant to be Charles Hinton expounding his theory* it's Charles Howard Hinton's dad, Mr... uh Hinton, expounding his son's theory, written 8 or so years before the Events of the comic):

*note to self: read panels properly before posting.

 

[IncandescentPrecept]

If Doom wanted to do it without magic that would be simple too. Like 3 pages of the thread were the million ways Doom could do this before brushing his teeth for the day.

How? Isn't he just a human?

 

[Jarmel]

Yes.

That's so assholish that I approve.

 

[Manmademan]

Atom was a jumping off point for an entirely different character. They are world's apart in character. Manhattan embodies a far broader array of tropes and is more of a comment on character's like Atom.

Manhattan is positioned in Watchmen as a God, Captain Atom is still a man (as far as I know XD).

not really. Atom's powerset is arguably more vast- Atom can freely travel throughout the timestream, for instance.

Stick him in Watchmen, he'd be just as much of a "god" if not moreso. Like surfer, Atom can change past and future events at will. Manhattan can't. Manhattan is only positioned as a "god" because there's no one else there on his level- but when comparing him to a broader scope of opponents, he falls flat here.

 

[Slayven]

What exactly IS the consistent explanation for what Doom's armor is made out of?

I thought "stomped" meant badly beaten not deaded? No one dies in comics but people get "stomped" all the time. I think a good ol' fashion non-brute force stomping is the best kind. Sue me for thinking outside the box.



Atom was a jumping off point for an entirely different character. They are world's apart in character. Manhattan embodies a far broader array of tropes and is more of a comment on character's like Atom.

Manhattan is positioned in Watchmen as a God, Captain Atom is still a man (as far as I know XD).


.

How many self sustaining universes has Manhattan created?

 

[Manmademan]

How many self sustaining universes has Manhattan created?

Jesus. I think that one just about wraps this one up.

 

[Slayven]

Jesus. I think that one just about wraps this one up.

It's what I do.

 

[WinterXL]

Luke Cage would stomp him if Dr. Manhattan owed him money.

 

[Coriolanus]

How many self sustaining universes has Manhattan created?

Gods, that is so horrendously badly written it really isn't funny. Mike Carey really did a stellar job with his "how to be a god' arc in Lucifer.

 

[Sorian]

How? Isn't he just a human?

I don't feel like summing up the first 3-4 pages of the thread for you, you can feel free to skim. Doom is "just human" but his knowledge and technological marvels place him on a completely different plane of existence.

 

[Manmademan]

Luke Cage would stomp him if Dr. Manhattan owed him money.

lol. found this one while poking around, also.

70s luke cage vs. 70s batman? My money! shut up and take it

 

[happypup]

How? Isn't he just a human?

I'll just leave this here.

 

[Slayven]

Books of Doom, it's on comxoloigy

 

[Riposte]

By story do you mean he's aware he's part of a comic (Animal Man style) or just the flow of events? I never picked up on him directly breaking the fourth wall (doesn't mean it didn't happen), although the story pointedly makes a big deal out of one instance in the last panel. I think it being the only time it really happens makes it a more powerful closing.

Not exactly Animal Man style, but I'm saying these are kind of the same thing, only the from the point of view of being able to see the whole story at once. The medium isn't comics, but instead a story, a sequence of events, made up of seamless life experiences.

Manhattan has, as far as I can tell, absolutely no control over events, at least not any more than any other character. It can't be emphasised how essential that is to his character and his arc.

Time is laid out before him, a series of events that always remain the same. Osterman becoming Manhattan and having those powers is a part of those events.

I'm not disagreeing with anything said here, it is I'm just more concerned with the perspective of Manhattan in terms of his own decision making. Although knowingly in a deterministic universe, Manhattan is still a being who makes decisions (ignoring for a moment all of the very tiny actions he'll do on any second) based on his environment and memories (which are an exceptional case to say the least). The decisions he makes at the end of the story (including what he says at any given moment) are in context of him being able to see everything, but that everything is depended on him making decisions that will lead to it. You make it sound like now that he's been exposed to the autonomously nature of the universe, he has come to see himself autonomous being, brainlessly following a script. I don't think that's the case because this script is depended on him making decisions (decisions which are in turn depended on the script).

To make a long story short, I basically have to imagine the future he sees is a future that makes him make decisions according to that future. If he falls into despair it is because his future is filled that despair, trying to change any given moment would be a self-fulfilling prophecy (and, this where things hurt, he would already know that he failed, and, ouch, he would still try anyway), etc. He made radical choice like creating new life, while already living through the consequences of that and beyond.

Saying time is a human illusion doesn't really explain how an intelligent being would react to seeing through that illusion so completely.

 

[Htown]

Yeah, "stomp" is a good term for what Sentry would do to Dr. Manhattan.

goddamn was he a broken character

 

[Parallax]

Yeah, "stomp" is a good term for what Sentry would do to Dr. Manhattan.

goddamn was he a broken character

its a nice term for what hed do. heaven help if the void shows

 

[Daingurse]

Man, Doom would be ready for it. Yeah, Doom.

Books of Doom, it's on comxoloigy

Yesss, the Books of Doom are fucking godly.

 

[Deified Data]

Can't he reconstruct matter on an atomic level or something?

Reed Richards deals with this shit on a daily basis and still makes it home in time for dinner.

 

[Manmademan]

I'll just leave this here.

God DAMN that's some good stuff right thar

 

[HK-47]

Yeah, "stomp" is a good term for what Sentry would do to Dr. Manhattan.

goddamn was he a broken character

A small child could beat Sentry by insulting his costume and sending him into a deep depression. The guy has so many mental problems he should get a medal just for managing to get out of bed.

 

[Finaika]

Could Wolverine sneak up behind Manhattan and stab him to death?

 

[HK-47]

She's basically a joke character whose adventures are still entirely canonical within the rest of the Marvel universe. Her actual powers are Squirrel-related, but the joke is she always finds a way to win, and usually the fight happens off-panel. This is based on the fact that her first appearance had her using the power of squirrels to defeat Doctor Doom of all people.

This could easily have gotten really annoying, but she's actually a nice, pleasant and optimistic character, and her books were legitimately funny, so people like her.

Also she acts as a nice poke in the eye to annoying fanboys

 

[PsychBat!]

Phew it's a good thing there's pre-depowered Alpha.

Stomps the Sentry if Alpha ever grew to full potential.

It's a shame he can only use one power at a time.

 

[Htown]

A small child could beat Sentry by insulting his costume and sending him into a deep depression. The guy has so many mental problems he should get a medal just for managing to get out of bed.

the problem with screwing with Sentry's mind is that it's a good way to bring the Void out to play.

 

[Jack Remington]

What would Sentry actually do?

 

[Parallax]

What would Sentry actually do?

one of the downsides to sentry is that his powers fluctuate. But hes got superman level strength and matter manipulation. Hes also got the void, but noone wants to see that.

Trying to scatter his molecules wont work, hes incredibly fast, and can rip you apart piece by piece or cell by cell.

 

[beat]

Most of them Watchmen are designed to be a take on known archetypical characters.

Hang on, they were takes on the Charleton characters. DC acquired them, Alan Moore proposed using them in Watchmen, and was approved and then turned down since DC decided they might want to use them.

So Nite Owl is Blue Beetle, Dr Manhattan is Captain Atom, etc. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Watchmen_characters

[Iceman]'s one of the few Omega Level mutants. The problem is he never realizes his full potential. He thinks for quite some time he can only control ice/water within himself, but in fact he's hydrokinetic and if I recall can "regrow" himself as long as a single atom remains.

{goes to read the Iceman Wikipedia article} "Organic ice". Good lord. I can't decide if this is dumber than adamantium being an "alloy" made with "resins" or not... Actually, scratch that, "gamma-dipped" ammo might take the cake.

Everyone keeps saying Reed Richards, this, Reed Richards that.

Can I get some feats?

Hard to believe the same clown who stretches from the FF movies would be ridiculously OP.

Richards' stretching ability is far less important than him being one of the MU's top geniuses.

Can't he completely rematerialize at will?

Presumably that's tied to a disembodied mind that's somewhere. DC/MU telepaths and sorcerors deal with astral plane stuff, there should be something about caging or battling that kind of thing.

WRT the original question, how about some Sentinel or other? Seems like they're able to take on even the most powerful mutants, which is pretty ridiculous in itself. The Tri-Sentinel needed to be put down by a special version of Captain Universe operating through Spider-Man because a regular human being Captain Universe wouldn't have been able to deal.

Like surfer, Atom can change past and future events at will. Manhattan can't. Manhattan is only positioned as a "god" because there's no one else there on his level- but when comparing him to a broader scope of opponents, he falls flat here.

In the Before Watchmen series, I vaguely gather than Manhattan can change the timestream, but nuclear annihilation occurred in so many potential timelines that he found his freedom to act became nil... though this might have been part of Ozy's plan to deceive and box him in. OTOH, I'm totally OK if we're going to call those non-canon.

 

[Jack Remington]

At the very least, no character whose power is primarily physical should be able to affect him. So Hulk, Superman, etc wouldn't be able to do much.

 

[Slayven]

 

[Screaming Meat]

not really. Atom's powerset is arguably more vast- Atom can freely travel throughout the timestream, for instance.

Stick him in Watchmen, he'd be just as much of a "god" if not moreso. Like surfer, Atom can change past and future events at will. Manhattan can't. Manhattan is only positioned as a "god" because there's no one else there on his level- but when comparing him to a broader scope of opponents, he falls flat here.

Fair enough.

There is no "Timestream" in Watchmen, though. No one can change events in the implacably deterministic universe Jon exists in, so that's some what of a moot power to have. Manhattan, being the big quantum nightmare that he is, exists and inhabits all points along a given time line (at least within his own life span) at the same time. He doesn't need to travel there, he's already there and always has been.

Also, Captain Atom is still very much human, mentally speaking, as Slayven's panels show.

How many self sustaining universes has Manhattan created?

That's really cool! He looked like he had no idea what he was doing! He reacts to it like Keanu discovering Kung Fu for the first time. Cute. Just reinforces to me how ungod-like he is in outlook compared to Jon.

I guess there is always going to be a problem in comparing a character who has 12 comics to pull info from, as opposed to one who has been going (I assume) for decades.

Hang on, they were takes on the Charleton characters. DC acquired them, Alan Moore proposed using them in Watchmen, and was approved and then turned down since DC decided they might want to use them.

So Nite Owl is Blue Beetle, Dr Manhattan is Captain Atom, etc. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Watchmen_characters

They were the starting points for Moore and Gibson to make a much broader point. They bear little actual relation to the characters they were originally based on, so the guy has a point.

Not exactly Animal Man style, but I'm saying these are kind of the same thing, only the from the point of view of being able to see the whole story at once. The medium isn't comics, but instead a story, a sequence of events, made up of seamless life experiences.

I'm not disagreeing with anything said here, it is I'm just more concerned with the perspective of Manhattan in terms of his own decision making. Although knowingly in a deterministic universe, Manhattan is still a being who makes decisions (ignoring for a moment all of the very tiny actions he'll do on any second) based on his environment and memories (which are an exceptional case to say the least). The decisions he makes at the end of the story (including what he says at any given moment) are in context of him being able to see everything, but that everything is depended on him making decisions that will lead to it. You make it sound like now that he's been exposed to the autonomously nature of the universe, he has come to see himself autonomous being, brainlessly following a script. I don't think that's the case because this script is depended on him making decisions (decisions which are in turn depended on the script).

To make a long story short, I basically have to imagine the future he sees is a future that makes him make decisions according to that future. If he falls into despair it is because his future is filled that despair, trying to change any given moment would be a self-fulfilling prophecy (and, this where things hurt, he would already know that he failed, and, ouch, he would still try anyway), etc. He made radical choice like creating new life, while already living through the consequences of that and beyond.

Saying time is a human illusion doesn't really explain how an intelligent being would react to seeing through that illusion so completely.

The problem is you're dividing the past, the present and the future, something Jon's perspective won't let him do. He isn't seeing the future and making decisions based on it because he is already making/has already made those decisions. He sees and exists in all moments in time at the same time (at least within his life span). Every event is, has and always will happen and there is substantial evidence in the Watchmen (I'd even go so far as to say it is made explicit) that Jon has no control over anything and that all Free Will, as well as our perception of time, is illusory:

"There is no future. There is no past. Do you see? Time is simultaneous, an intricately structured jewel that humans insist on viewing one edge at a time, when the whole design is visible in every facet."

"Other people seem to make my moves for me."

"I can't prevent the future. To me, it's already happening."

"But it's too late. Always has been, Always will be too late."

"The photograph is in my hand...in twelve seconds time, I drop the photograph ...walking away. It's already lying there, twelve seconds into the future...I found it...twenty-seven hours ago. It's still there, twenty-seven hours into the past...I'm still there looking at it."

"The fat man is already lumbering [towards the watch]"

"We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."

"Everything is preordained. Even my responses."

There are more, but I don't have a copy to hand at work

I don't recall anything in the book suggesting that he is capable of changing events or making decisions that haven't already played out. It's a big part of the reason that he starts to disassociate from the rest of humanity... even though he knows Laurie will eventually change his mind. XD

 

[b&jy77VjiKn$#F]

Zack Snyder nailed Dr. Manhattan pretty hard. He's not a DC or Marvel character though.

 

[DarkFlow]

Any of them could, it just depends on how the writer feels that week.

 

[Prototype]

My jaw literally dropped reading this.

you should pick up your jaw then, Dr. Manhattan can't be killed.

I'd assume that would preclude being "stomped".

 

[Screaming Meat]

In the Before Watchmen series, I vaguely gather than Manhattan can change the timestream, but nuclear annihilation occurred in so many potential timelines that he found his freedom to act became nil... though this might have been part of Ozy's plan to deceive and box him in. OTOH, I'm totally OK if we're going to call those non-canon.

They did WHAT?! Are you SHITTING me? They had multiple time lines in a comic universe that is explicitly explained to be deterministic?!

I'm so glad I skipped them. Saved me from a total geek embolism. XD

 

[agrajag]

Let's not forget that Dr. Manhattan is omniscient. So if the battle was fought in the Marvel universe, he would know all of the magic spells that Dr. Doom knows. If it was fought in the Watchmen universe, where magic doesn't exist, Dr. Doom wouldn't be able to use magic.

 

[inky]

Hang on, they were takes on the Charleton characters. DC acquired them, Alan Moore proposed using them in Watchmen, and was approved and then turned down since DC decided they might want to use them.

So Nite Owl is Blue Beetle, Dr Manhattan is Captain Atom, etc. See Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Watchmen_characters

I know, but they were just a starting point:

"Eventually, I realized that if I wrote the substitute characters well enough, so that they seemed familiar in certain ways, certain aspects of them brought back a kind of generic super-hero resonance or familiarity to the reader, then it might work."

He reworked them to further the point he was trying to make overall, thus, they became his take on certain superhero archetypes, more than just 1 to 1 substitutes for those characters.

 

[Mudcrab]

Let's not forget that Dr. Manhattan is omniscient. So if the battle was fought in the Marvel universe, he would know all of the magic spells that Dr. Doom knows. If it was fought in the Watchmen universe, where magic doesn't exist, Dr. Doom wouldn't be able to use magic.

Manhattan is not omniscient. He can only see the past and future in his own timeline unless someone clouds that ability like Ozymandias did with the use of tachyons. Presumably Doom would be able to do the same.

Any of them could, it just depends on how the writer feels that week.

What an original and totally not played out whine when arguing about fictional characters that have nothing to do with one another in the first place.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Let's not forget that Dr. Manhattan is omniscient. So if the battle was fought in the Marvel universe, he would know all of the magic spells that Dr. Doom knows. If it was fought in the Watchmen universe, where magic doesn't exist, Dr. Doom wouldn't be able to use magic.

He isn't omniscient.

I know, but they were just a starting point:

"Eventually, I realized that if I wrote the substitute characters well enough, so that they seemed familiar in certain ways, certain aspects of them brought back a kind of generic super-hero resonance or familiarity to the reader, then it might work."

He reworked them to further the point he was trying to make overall, thus, they became his take on certain superhero archetypes, more than just 1 to 1 substitutes for those characters.

Waaaay better than how I put it.

 

[PBalfredo]

Since we're talking Dr. Manhattan's powers and abilities, why is he not able to stop WWIII? I remember a line about him not being able to be everywhere at once, but we clearly see him teleporting around instantaneously and making multiple copies of himself. Everything about him seems to suggest he could stop WWIII. Was him not being able to stop all the nukes ever legit, or was the real reason that by the time WWIII would of happened he just wouldn't of cared by that point.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

Since we're talking Dr. Manhattan's powers and abilities, why is he not able to stop WWIII? I remember a line about him not being able to be everywhere at once, but we clearly see him teleporting around instantaneously and making multiple copies of himself. Everything about him seems to suggest he could stop WWIII. Was him not being able to stop all the nukes ever legit, or was the real reason that by the time WWIII would of happened he just wouldn't of cared by that point.

He could, but he didn't saw himself stopping it, therefore he didn't.
As powerful as Manhattan is, he is the character with less control of his destiny on all Watchmen.

 

[KingFire]

Since we're talking Dr. Manhattan's powers and abilities, why is he not able to stop WWIII? I remember a line about him not being able to be everywhere at once, but we clearly see him teleporting around instantaneously and making multiple copies of himself. Everything about him seems to suggest he could stop WWIII. Was him not being able to stop all the nukes ever legit, or was the real reason that by the time WWIII would of happened he just wouldn't of cared by that point.

He did not care. He was losing his touch with humanity little by little since he became a super hero, and thus, most people's lives did not interest him.

 

[Screaming Meat]

He did not care. He was losing his touch with humanity little by little since he became a super hero, and thus, most people's lives did not interest him.

Although he does grow distant from the human race, something that Ozy capitalises on early in the story, that is NOT the reason that he couldn't stop events unfolding.

This is:

"I can't prevent the future. To me, it's already happening."

He is a slave to set events like every other character in the story.