Support NeoGAF

[Alcotholic]

JRPGs used to be my favorite form of RPG growing up. Even before I knew there was a distinction between the two. The stories were interesting and varied, the combat light but deep, and the sense of adventure was immense. These days I have had this craving for a good feeling JRPG, wanting to feel the excitement and connection to the characters I once did. I kept an eye out for RPGs I've never played before, looking at videos of gameplay, kinda skipping on reviews for the most part, and just to make sure I was getting the experience I was looking for I went back a couple generations. I bought and downloaded Rogue Galaxy. I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't this. The characters were a parody of themselves, awful campy dialogue and voice acting, inconsistent and weird names, a barren world, bland combat and a vomit of side content. The game felt like it was developed without thought.

It follows many tropes that most other JRPGs do. I mean, here is a list that encompasses RPGs in general, but JRPGs are more guilty of:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.p...n.TheGrandListOfConsoleRolePlayingGameCliches

You can kinda get the gist of what I'm getting at.
Why have JRPGs stagnated so much? They fell into a hole of arbitrary systems, fighting mechanics, and tech trees.The plot is generally the same across most games with some variances of direction. Amnesia-ridden, fatherless, sword wielding guy going on adventures for some sort of higher meaning. A lead female who is a spell caster and love interest to the dude, follows him with a ragtag group of outcasts hope to save humanity. Is that all these games strive for? Probably the most unique JRPGs I've played in the past 10 years have been The World Ends with You and Persona 4. Now these games still follow some standard JRPG conventions, but at least they tried for something unique.

I feel like developers could really trim the fat on most of these games to create something truly memorable and refreshing. Chrono Trigger, FFVI, and Super Mario RPG had simple systems, but a robust game focused on the plot and exploration. You didn't have tech trees, a synthesizer system, bug catching, and monster rating system. And guess what, they are still as fun as ever.

Despite my gripes, I am stoked for Persona 5, and cautiously optimistic of Ni No Kuni 2.

Anyway, sorry if my rant is a jumbled mess, it's just my stream of thoughts.

EDIT:
Just to make it clear to everyone, I am not making these assumptions purely on Rogue Galaxy. I just noticed a trend after playing a bit of this game that is consistent with all the other JRPGs that I have played in the past few years.
And to just refocus my statements here, JRPGs these days are a jumbled mess of thoughtless mechanics and recycled characters and themes. To extend my thoughts on these matters further, I will CLEARLY separate them and explain my issues with each.

The Mechanics:
Fighting is either real time or turn based- I have no issue with either, but what I do have a problem with is how other systems within the game are tacked on with no thought to how it's supposed to fit. You gain new abilities by doing side quests or finding Item A and fitting it into Slot A. Sometimes you have to play some tech tree mini game to unlock abilities. It's like fitting a square peg into a round hole- the two don't fit, it's not an elegant system. Real time fighting systems are often just button mash fests. You gain new abilities, but they don't really affect the fight, they affect how you fight. Most of the time it ends up being an exercise in maintaining health bars while attacking. While I know that maintaining health is a portion of the battles, it shouldn't be the focus- The focus is in how one is fighting against the enemy. And you could turn to me and say, "you should direct your team mates better." To that I say the developers need to work on a system that makes you feel in control of your team mates as I think they are husks of what combat partners should be like.

There often is content for the sake of content and not really anything else. Half way through a game you're still going through tutorials, because at that point developers wanted to pad the game more with a bug collect-a-thons and synthesis-fusion systems. How does this help me and my journey to save the world? How does this fit into the world that I am exploring? And what are the benefits of participating in this?

The characters and the world:
Everything is a trope. The worlds are barren waste lands, because everything has comical proportions and it takes too long to get anywhere. The character dialogues are a joke and it's bizarre to me that they try to pan this off to adults (and to that extent teens who may play these as well). I don't know what else I should say.

In regards to console vs handheld games, I clearly was referring to console games. I have not played hand held games in a looooong time, because it feels pointless to me- I would always play at home and like others have stated, would prefer to play on a TV. I sold my 3ds, because the prospects just weren't appealing anymore.
But why can't we have better console JRPG experiences? Just because the handheld consoles have good games, doesn't mean that consoles can't. Why are console JRPGs so bad right now?

I hope that clarifies my point a little bit more.

 

[Dio]

It's all FF7's fault.

 

[Chairmanchuck]

The plot is generally the same across most games with some variances of direction. Amnesia-ridden, fatherless, sword wielding guy going on adventures for some sort of higher meaning. A lead female who is a spell caster and love interest to the dude, follows him with a ragtag group of outcasts hope to save humanity.

Hasnt that been the case since the PSX JRPGs?

 

[mp1990]

The issue here is that you wanted a good JRPG, and you bought Rogue Galaxy. Rogue Galaxy is anything but good.

 

[Pureauthor]

After reading your post, you seemed to focus more on complaining about the plots, but then when citing CT, SMRPG and FFVI you talk about the simplicity of their battle systems, so I'm not too sure where the focus of your criticism is, here.

 

[Alcotholic]

Hasnt that been the case since the PSX JRPGs?

Well, yeah. But back then it was a little more forgivable since they were still kinda fresh in that regard. But why is it still that way?

 

[Tohsaka]

Rogue Galaxy isn't really a good example of a modern RPG, since it came out 11 years ago.

 

[jschreier]

Maybe you are playing the wrong JRPGs. Try Trails in the Sky.

 

[Deft Beck]

I don't think it's fair to the diversity of the modern JRPG market to generalize like this. There are always going to be derivative, formulaic JRPGs that just swap out character archetypes and plot structures from other anime and games (Tales series) while experimental games inspired by classic games come out and are iterated upon (Bravely series, Setsuna).

Furthermore, I would argue that back when Chrono Trigger was new, there were people who argued on BBS or Usenet that "modern" RPGs weren't like PC98 or MSX RPGs. Rose tinted glasses change frames, but the lenses are still the same.

EDIT: I also agree with above posters that Rogue Galaxy isn't really a "modern" RPG.

 

[James Scott]

From what I remember, JRPGs were the pinnacle of storytelling which is why there were popular, and now they're not. Japan's storytelling is usually made for Japan so even a game with a great translation is likely not better than a lot of western efforts which are made for western audiences. Dont' think it's a coincidence that JRPGs started their decline when voice acting became prevalent.
Japan also seemingly struggled with hardware which is why FF13 turned out as it did.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

This is one reason.

Some of the things said in your post are another reason (that they don't really describe the situation accurately).

Really good marketing for good games coming in from former PC develepers 10 years back are another.

And that's why the greats are fewer than in years past.

 

[Alcotholic]

After reading your post, you seemed to focus more on complaining about the plots, but then when citing CT, SMRPG and FFVI you talk about the simplicity of their battle systems, so I'm not too sure where the focus of your criticism is, here.

Sorry, it was more or less a rant without much regard to structure. It may have messed up my point, but I'm a little frustrated with these games.
What I'm trying to say is that the plots have not changed, but that games have become a complex mess of mechanics thrown together without thought.

Rogue Galaxy isn't really a good example of a modern RPG, since it came out 11 years ago.

It was the most recent RPG I played, so I guess that's why I used it. I've watched quite a bit of Artelier Sophie and Star Ocean 5 to understand that they aren't really much different.

 

[WhoaIsThatMars]

Rogue Galaxy came out like 10 years ago...two generations ago...

 

[TC McQueen]

Probably because the Japanese mainstream audience for everything pretty much disappeared, so they had to double down on targeting niche audiences... which aren't the most tolerant of change and deviation from the perceived "norms."

This is made worse by the assumption that JRPGs are mostly going to be played by Japanese teens/otaku, so they have less incentive to cut the fat and instead pad things out so that the person feels like they get more "value" out of the game, sort of like open world games in the west.

Of course, since Japan targets Japanese audiences first and generally sucks at appealing to the west, this is not surprising.

 

[III-V]

I feel your pain OP. This used to be my favorite game style.

 

[LOUD915]

My biggest issue with the modern RPG is the completely nonsensical and overly complicated storylines. I still have no idea what the fuck happened in Final Fantasy X and that was simple compared to a lot of modern JRPGs.

FF15 looks like goddamn mess, storyline wise.

I don't know if its a translation issue, but the plots have been my biggest issue....that and horrible character designs.

I prefer high fantasy compared to steampunk guys with zippers and belts everywhere.

Also, cell phones and cars don't belong in JRPGs.

I also prefer turn based to active combat where you control 1 character at a time.

Needless to say, I'm skipping FF15.

 

[Sanctuary]

The issue here is that you wanted a good JRPG, and you bought Rogue Galaxy. Rogue Galaxy is anything but good.

It's good looking, and that's about it. I expected so much more after playing DQVIII.

 

[Astral Dog]

western games took over, people stoped playing and wont play the good ones (wich are now mostly on handhelds)

 

[diaspora]

FFXIV is pretty good. Yes, it's an MMO but a great RPG regardless.

 

[LOUD915]

OP needs to play I Am Setsuna.

 

[Sanctuary]

western games took over, people stoped playing and wont play the good ones (wich are now mostly on handhelds)

And that totally sucks too, because I refuse to play on a microscopic screen.

OP needs to play I Am Setsuna.

It's not that good. It's a miracle anyone can even walk in that game too.

 

[kurahador]

Play better modern jrpg -- FFXIV and Trails of Cold Steel for example.

 

[CaviarMeths]

Good JRPGs never died. They just moved to handhelds. The PSP/Vita and DS/3DS are treasure troves.

Also what I played of FFXIV was fantastic. It's too bad I don't game enough these days to justify the subscription cost.

 

[epmode]

"Modern" JRPGs.

Trails of Cold Steel is pretty great too, and the next game in the series is released this week! It's a bit tropey at first glance but it still has the same lovely worldbuilding and dialogue.

 

[WhoaIsThatMars]

Japan also seemingly struggled with hardware which is why FF13 turned out as it did.

To say all of Japan had problems with hardware is an over generalization imo. FF13 was trying to market a new engine and it had plenty of other problems that are pretty much just Square Enix problems.

Also, the market was changing in Japan

 

[Tohsaka]

It was the most recent RPG I played, so I guess that's why I used it. I've watched quite a bit of Artelier Sophie and Star Ocean 5 to understand that they aren't really much different.

I don't see how you can really complain about modern RPGs when you haven't actually played any of them. Atelier Sophie and Star Ocean 5 both play incredibly differently, and neither of them are really comparable to Rogue Galaxy. They don't have amnesiac protagonists or many of the other things you mentioned either.

 

[gaiages]

Probably because the Japanese mainstream audience for everything pretty much disappeared, so they had to double down on targeting niche audiences... which aren't the most tolerant of change and deviation from the perceived "norms."

This is made worse by the assumption that JRPGs are mostly going to be played by Japanese teens/otaku, so they have less incentive to cut the fat and instead pad things out so that the person feels like they get more "value" out of the game, sort of like open world games in the west.

Of course, since Japan targets Japanese audiences first and generally sucks at appealing to the west, this is not surprising.

Yep, pretty much. It also explains why a large amount of modern JRPGs have fanservice (catering to otakus)

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

My biggest issue with the modern RPG is the completely nonsensical and overly complicated storylines. I still have no idea what the fuck happened in Final Fantasy X and that was simple compared to a lot of modern JRPGs.

FF15 looks like goddamn mess, storyline wise.

I don't know if its a translation issue, but the plots have been my biggest issue....that and horrible character designs.

I prefer high fantasy compared to steampunk guys with zippers and belts everywhere.

Also, cell phones and cars don't belong in JRPGs.

I also prefer turn based to active combat where you control 1 character at a time.

Needless to say, I'm skipping FF15.

And here's another reason.

"Modern" JRPGs.

I disagree with the OP anyway -- there are more great JRPGs on the 3DS alone than I have time to play -- but he did specify modern, so I assume he means where the genre is now, not where it was when Trails was developed.

The next one coming out is from 2014! We gen 8 baby!

 

[PrinnyBomb]

its because a lot of very mediocre, pandering jrpgs have sold very well despite the lack of effort and quality. companies realized what they could get away with

 

[LOUD915]

To say all of Japan had problems with hardware is an over generalization imo. FF13 was trying to market a new engine and it had plenty of other problems that are pretty much just Square Enix problems.

The famous "HD towns are hard" meme...Was that a translation issue of was that pretty much what they meant?

 

[Elfforkusu]

Maybe you're playing the wrong JRPGs?

Xenoblade, Last Story, and Radiant Historia are some of my favorite JRPGs of all time. It's been 5 years since those games came out, but I don't think it's time to freak out yet.

The Trails games are legit too. Bravely Default isn't bad. People like Ni No Kuni for some reason

Spoiler

I'm kidding. kind of.

 

[OnimaruXLR]

RPGs are, by nature, a kind of messy genre. They're meant to simulate tabletop games, after all, and tabletop games are limited only by imagination.

JRPGs got around this early on by being very simple as they were limited by technology at the time. But as tech got more powerful, they got more complex, which is not the same thing as getting better.

Nowadays, any kind of RPG, no matter what it's point of origin, that has a high level of polish or focus is a miracle.

 

[Opa-Pa]

This is weird, from the beginning of your post I thought you were going to complain about tropey, shallow characters in modern RPGs, which is a complaint I'd share, but then you go on about complex battle systems and stuff like that which aren't necessarily bad. Hell, P3 and 4 might be considered "complex" compared to other examples you give like SMRPG.

I haven't played Rogue Galaxy either, so I'm not sure if you want simpler RPGs or better written ones. I was gonna suggest Xenoblade but despite being incredible IMO, it has a lot of stuff going on at once.

Personally I used to enjoy games with focus on the adventure when I was little because I just assumed fights in JRPGs weren't supposed to be exciting, but now I'll take a good battle system with tolerable characters and decent story over the rest anyday.

 

[kurahador]

Maybe you're playing the wrong JRPGs?

Xenoblade, Last Story, and Radiant Historia are some of my favorite JRPGs of all time. It's been 5 years since those games came out, but I don't think it's time to freak out yet.

The Trails games are legit too. Bravely Default isn't bad. People like Ni No Kuni for some reason

Spoiler

I'm kidding. kind of.

Funny thing is he freaks out after playing a jrpg released 11 years ago.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Asides from the really big names (and even including them) alot of jrpgs went onto the DS, 3DS, PSP, even Vita. But because they were on portable consoles, alot of the really great jrpgs from last 2 gens of portable consoles just never get the attention they deserve.

Plus alot of the companies behind all the 90s jrpgs have uh.....

Konami
Capcom
etc.

 

[Hikami]

You're playing the wrong JRPGs

It's like people who say all games have shit stories. (Stop playing games with shitty stories)

 

[AcademicSaucer]

It's all FF7's fault.

this

 

[Alcotholic]

I guess my thought process on what defines modern RPG vs classic RPG was when the jump to 3D was made. I see similarities between most of these games after that point. They are a blur to me now.

 

[CaviarMeths]

Yep, pretty much. It also explains why a large amount of modern JRPGs have fanservice (catering to otakus)

Those "large amount of JRPGs" are all niche titles with smaller budgets and typically don't sell more than a few hundred thousand units worldwide. The only real exception is Fire Emblem, and even there, I would argue that the series exploded in popularity far more due to the changes made for accessibility and the stronger marketing push Nintendo put behind it. Awakening and Fates would have sold just as well without the waifus.

It can't be ignored that the biggest JRPG series of all time, which continues to sell 10m+ units with every release, doesn't pander to otakus.

its because a lot of very mediocre, pandering jrpgs have sold very well despite the lack of effort and quality. companies realized what they could get away with

What pandering JRPGs have sold "very well"?

 

[Basileus777]

The OP is all over the place without much clarity in terms what the core complaint here is. It doesn't help that your conception of a modern RPG is based off of playing a PS2 game.

 

[LOUD915]

I still haven't played Radient Historia. Chrono Trigger is my favorite game of all time.

I'm a terrible person I know.

The Last Story was great except for the weird level grade system.

Xenoblade was good except it was too easy and the combat was pretty much auto battle MMO shit.

 

[random25]

OP, you just don't explore too much. There's a lot of JRPGs that have tried to deviate from a lot of the usual JRPG tropes in terms of story and has game mechanics that separate themselves from the usual ways to play JRPGs.

 

[Kayo Police]

Maybe you are playing the wrong JRPGs. Try Trails in the Sky.

Trails isnt modern in anyway. If anything it's archaic as fuck.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I'm with you, OP. Growing up I loved JRPGs for the same reason you did.

To me, the genre mostly died in gen 5. The most "recent" JRPG I really like is Trails in the Sky, and that's technically from 2004. Uh, Suikoden V then. But yeah. Maybe Ys: Memories of Celceta, but that's not turn-based or anything, it's more action/adventure at heart.

But the more traditional, turn-based RPGs of my youth are gone.
The closest things are either indie games (Cosmic Star Heroine will save us, I hope!) or relegated to tiny-ass screens. And, of course, most of them are filled with insufferable otaku bait horseshit and/or terrible pseudo-action combat that started to become common with Tales of games, and more recently Xenoblade and all those awful games. And of course Final Fantasy has been complete crap for almost two decades.

And that totally sucks too, because I refuse to play on a microscopic screen.

Agreed.

It's not that good. It's a miracle anyone can even walk in that game too.

Oh? That's too bad. I was hoping it'd be at least pretty good. What do you mean, a miracle anyone can walk?

Maybe you're playing the wrong JRPGs?

Xenoblade, Last Story, and Radiant Historia are some of my favorite JRPGs of all time. It's been 5 years since those games came out, but I don't think it's time to freak out yet.

The Trails games are legit too. Bravely Default isn't bad. People like Ni No Kuni for some reason

Spoiler

I'm kidding. kind of.

Xenoblade is awful. Trails is good, but it's old. Even the modern Trails games (Cold Steel etc.) are based on an older style of JRPG, not the modern ones, and from what I hear they've got more otaku-baiting stuff than before.

Don't care for handhelds, but doesn't Bravely Default have major issues, namely a terrible second half? I only played the demo and I liked the combat, but I found the art direction to be eye-gougingly bad. *shrugs* If they made a console JRPG with that kind of combat and decent art, I'd probably buy it.

The OP is all over the place without much clarity in terms what the core complaint here is. It doesn't help that your conception of a modern RPG is based off of playing a PS2 game.

Everything past gen 5 = modern for us old curmudgeons If anything, it only got worse after that. At least gen 5 still had Wild ARMs 3 and Suikoden V which were pretty good.

 

[PantherLotus]

Feel like they never recovered from the jump to 3D. Trying entirely too hard to be GIANT CINEMATIC EXPERIENCES.

 

[Rezae]

I think it's largely a result of Japanese developers not understanding who to appeal to these days. Western RPGs are grittier and more mature, and that's what Western audiences prefer. It's hard to appeal to vastly different audiences and most games need that appeal for sales. Seems like they've largely just double downed on Japanese appeal, which largely results in lower budgets due to sales appeal and the most absurd writing you can come across. I was as big of a JRPG fan as there was throughout the late 80s and most of the past 2 decades but the genre just seems stagnate and absurd these days, IMO.

 

[Sanctuary]

Oh? That's too bad. I was hoping it'd be at least pretty good. What do you mean, a miracle anyone can walk?

It's not necessarily bad, it's just that it's too damn old school and feels like a throwback, but offers nothing new at all. The comment about walking was that in conjunction with the tired gameplay, the aesthetics are cringe worthy at times. No one has feet in the game, and they all walk around on peg legs.

 

[SOR5]

Love JRPG's, but its a genre i've not been feeling for a long long time, especially this gen

 

[casiopao]

Maybe you are playing the wrong JRPGs. Try Trails in the Sky.

Someone want to avoid tropes holes and you promote to him one of the titles with tons of anime tropes.......lol.

Xenoblade Chronicle X actually had much different take on character tropes lol. And the Normal Mission quest plays more on human's culture meeting with new Xeno's. So, there is that if u want to avoid tons of character tropes.^_^

 

[kevm3]

Corny characters, cliche stories and mediocre graphics. JRPGs never had the most complex stories, but they had cool, interesting characters and beautiful environments to explore. Not so much now. I don't want to play as the backstreet boys, nor do I want to play a game where the cast consists of catwomen and 5 year olds. I miss the cast from a game such as Breath of Fire 3.