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Why are modern JRPGs such a mess?

Why would it be? She's right, the character writing in basically most if not all western rpg writers fucking stomps all over JRPGs at this point.

............ I played some Wrpg already after the recommendation i ask from many of Gaffers here.

Kingdom of Amalur character is not in any way greater vs Jrpg character lol.
Not to mention Fallout 4 character.

I feel Jrpg and Wrpg had their own share of good character and bad character here.
 
Is there a common point between the recent successful (say 500K+) JRPGs in the west?

*Pokemon: It's Pokemon.
*Dark Souls: Western aesthetic, deep action combat.
*Final Fantasy: It's Final Fantasy.
*Fire Emblem: Strategy game, relationship building for the army.
*Kingdom Hearts: It's Disney.
*Bravely Default: Excellent QOL features such as the random encounter slider, innovative combat.
*Valkyria Chronicles: Strategy shooter hybrid.
*Yokai Watch: Monster collecting like Pokemon, big marketing campaign.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but looking at the list it's hard to pinpoint what JRPGs in general need to become big in the west.
Out of those it feels like Bravely is the most... natural evolution of traditional SNES-era SE JRPGs, and the QoL features can't be overstated. FE's gameplay now is sublime but the writing is SNES-era shithouse.
 
And the problem with this stems from when "anime" is percieved as unilaterally narrowly from either outside OR inside the fandom.

This is where the tropes talk keeps popping up again and again here. No nuance or flavor or distinctions of quality, just slathering it on as Wholly Good or Wholly Bad.

edit: well well well, evidence, it arrives in the nick of time like a good hero should.

What's at issue, for me, is not, in general, tropes themselves but rather the way, in which they are employed. When art/character/world design is crassly done to satisfy tropes, it produces tasteless, empty content. When there are tropes in said design but there is also an independent artistic vision, which is not a crass ploy at pandering to an audience--there is the potential for worthwhile content with tropes.

People use totalizing language, but they have to get this at some level. It is not like the games we all enjoyed in the 90s weren't tropey but that they had tropes does not mean that otaku bait content does not exist.

...

Whalehunting demands otaku bait. That small of content drives content produced to be trashy and shallow. So that's what happens on mobile.

The Japanese console audience has shrunk; niche content is a way to ensure revenue. Part general Japanese economic and social trends, part issues in the industry. Moreover, production costs have risen so it's harder to break out of those niche through success in, say, the west, which was never common anyhow.

...

Also, this is a trend in content. There are games that are full otaku bait but there are plenty more games that are going that way while still having redeeming qualities.

People don't acknowledge the continuum either because they want to set aside what they like as completely different or stick their head in the sand and deny change over time.

Edit: As people are using anime to denote a certain sort of anime and besmirch it, there are also those using this context confusion to act like the complaint is ridiculous when it really isn't.
 
What about Bethesda's doo doo? I'd rather play an SMT or DQ than have to suffer through his another Bethesda game.
What about Bethesda? They're shallow shit, but the characters aren't generally the issue. I'd even still put up their stuff over say- persona though I've never found the latter to be good. DQ either. SMT4 was great though.
 
I have a hard time seeing how anyone could play SMT4 and not think it had a lower budget than the average PS2 Atlus RPG like SMT3, P3/4, DDS1&2, etc. Sure, it's technically decent for a 3DS game, but it's easy to see that they cut a lot of corners.

SMTIV is low budget as fuck compared to what we got in the ps2 era. The game uses sprites instead of full on 3d models and features a lot of bad, inconsistent art.

This is part of why I think the "just buy a handheld" crowd isn't really getting it. I personally have no problems with handhelds. Hell, I actually kind of like my JRPGs on handhelds, but I still don't think the handheld library compares to what we used to get. The budgets and priorities are so radically different, and it's almost depressing. Take Bravely Default for instance. Crazy good battle system and a lot of thought put into that. All it needed was an old school FF caliber storyline, but I feel like they just said fuck it and didn't give a rat's ass. It's so bad I can barely deal with it. On top of that the game just feels small compared to old school RPGs, and that's not even counting the repeat stuff at the end.

I've tried to embrace handhelds but just haven't found a lot of new JRPGs that I can fall in love with like the old ones. I actually thought SMT IV was one of the better ones, honestly. I thought it was rather good despite the fact that it was clearly not as expansive as the PS2 Atlus JRPGs that came before it.
 
This is part of why I think the "just buy a handheld" crowd isn't really getting it. I personally have no problems with handhelds. Hell, I actually kind of like my JRPGs on handhelds, but I still don't think the handheld library compares to what we used to get. The budgets and priorities are so radically different, and it's almost depressing. Take Bravely Default for instance. Crazy good battle system and a lot of thought put into that. All it needed was an old school FF caliber storyline, but I feel like they just said fuck it and didn't give a rat's ass. It's so bad I can barely deal with it. On top of that the game just feels small compared to old school RPGs, and that's not even counting the repeat stuff at the end.

I've tried to embrace handhelds but just haven't found a lot of new JRPGs that I can fall in love with like the old ones. I actually thought SMT IV was one of the better ones, honestly. I thought it was rather good despite the fact that it was clearly not as expansive as the PS2 Atlus JRPGs that came before it.
Being on console hasn't helped console Final Fantasy have a good story since 6 (Tactics and 14 aside I guess). "Final Fantasy calibur" hasn't many much in a long ass time.
 
Arguably the most recent AAA JRPG was Ni no Kuni and that was a big worldwide success despite being very Japanese.

And I'm not saying that we need every JRPG to be AAA. I'm saying that as a fan of traditional JRPGs, it's very disappointing that mid & high budget JRPGs are mostly gone these days. And I don't think it needs to be that way - the Tales series is a good example of a mid-budget JRPG series that has found more than enough success to keep going and release games on a regular basis.



Yes, Atlus saved a lot of money during the generation from game to game through reuse. SMT: Nocturne was their first PS2 RPG though so that doesn't apply to it. As an indie developer, something of the scope & technology of SMT4 looks very doable to me. SMT: Nocturne, on the other hand, would be a much bigger undertaking.

That is.... one out of how many? And i don't need to remind you that Ni No Kuni PS3 did horrendously in Japan right?

Xenoblade Chronicle X while not AAA also does not do gangbusters even with the budget.
TMS even with all the beautiful looking art, great songs and great battle system also failed to light the chart.

I am not commenting on Tales at all as i feel the reason for their decline right now is simply caused by their not on par effort like Zestria and Xilia 2.

Except for maybe one or two title, i really feel that there are simply no market for AAA Jrpg.

And then they can't stop slurping Soul dick. What you said is too true.

Agree. And that is even made worst as i damn hate Soul series. Such not fun game.T_T

Ni No Kuni is one of the best games I've played in a long time

Ni No Kuni had one if not the worst battle system on Jrpg for all this years i had ever experienced,T_T It is a chore to fight. It makes me remember the terrible experience of playing Trails.T_T
 
memes are all they deserved.
What
Obviously longer "epic" games are better when they can be brought with you,
Whaaaaat

I mean uh... maybe for you, but it's kind of absurd how you seem incapable of understanding that this wouldn't apply to everyone.

at least since I started working a real job.
Oh.

Ohhhh. This is one of those posts. I see. Nevermind then. Carry on with the memes, you mature job-working adult you.
 
JRPGs used to be my favorite genre but the constant tropes, the moei or however you spell it bullshit and the excessive bloat turned me off completely. Can't tell you the last one I finished that wasn't a ps2 or earlier RPG except FF XIII which is the epitome of problems with the genre.
 
This is part of why I think the "just buy a handheld" crowd isn't really getting it. I personally have no problems with handhelds. Hell, I actually kind of like my JRPGs on handhelds, but I still don't think the handheld library compares to what we used to get. The budgets and priorities are so radically different, and it's almost depressing. Take Bravely Default for instance. Crazy good battle system and a lot of thought put into that. All it needed was an old school FF caliber storyline, but I feel like they just said fuck it and didn't give a rat's ass. It's so bad I can barely deal with it. On top of that the game just feels small compared to old school RPGs, and that's not even counting the repeat stuff at the end.

I've tried to embrace handhelds but just haven't found a lot of new JRPGs that I can fall in love with like the old ones. I actually thought SMT IV was one of the better ones, honestly. I thought it was rather good despite the fact that it was clearly not as expansive as the PS2 Atlus JRPGs that came before it.

While I think that's a very fair point, I also think it's highly reductionist. A game like The World Ends With You or Dragon Quest IX doesn't feel small to me. Also, while BD has few "FF" moments, what about FF Type 0 and Crisis Core? Those are also handheld RPGs. Maybe it lacks those FF moments you crave because it was a design choice? As for SMTIV, while I can understand the criticism aimed at it - and I am one of those critics - I still it's a fantastic game, which is what I find most important.
 
That is.... one out of how many? And i don't need to remind you that Ni No Kuni PS3 did horrendously in Japan right?

Xenoblade Chronicle X while not AAA also does not do gangbusters even with the budget.
TMS even with all the beautiful looking art, great songs and great battle system also failed to light the chart.

I am not commenting on Tales at all as i feel the reason for their decline right now is simply caused by their not on par effort like Zestria and Xilia 2.

Except for maybe one or two title, i really feel that there are simply no market for AAA Jrpg.



Agree. And that is even made worst as i damn hate Soul series. Such not fun game.T_T
I think it needs to be asked why anyone ought to buy them among all the AAA RPGs available in the first place. Like, the Souls game serve a particular audience, as do TES/Fallout (regardless of how one feels about their games), Witcher, Pokémon, Bravely, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age games. What are other AAA JRPGs bringing to the table?
 
And then the game would bomb as the gamer nowadays don't have any speck of time to ease themselves with the battle system.

Xenoblade Chronicle X faces the problem where people just don't get the battle system.
Infinite Space had people playing the game and end up returning as they can't even won the first to second chapter.
Knights in the Nightmare causes people to pull their head and bang the wall as they can't understand what they just played.
Resonance of Fate make the player jump of the tower to save them from the new unique battle system lol.

Accept the fact that the gamer nowadays simply had hard time on adapting to something new. They will always said they want something new but in their heart, they will only buy things which gives them safe gameplay mechanic as it is easy for them to understand.
Not a new thing for me. >.> FFT, FF8, Xenosaga, more complicated/strategic battle systems always stumped me! Simples easier ta understand and can be more fun depedning on the circumstances to.
 
An issue i've had with the genre, as someone that plays most of the recent ones (besides atelier, ew crafting), is that there are just WAY too many new releases that are nostalgia pandering.

Like the ratio is way off. It's almost as bad as platformers lol.



Maybe its due to the hostile nature of the industry that prevents 'risky' games, but still, sure would be nice if there was more games like FF15?

But the average jrpg budget is basically porn game territory these days...
 
I think it needs to be asked why anyone ought to buy them among all the AAA RPGs available in the first place. Like, the Souls game serve a particular audience, as do TES/Fallout (regardless of how one feels about their games), Witcher, Pokémon, Bravely, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age games. What are other AAA JRPGs bringing to the table?

Hard to tell from your list but we are about to find out, over the next 6 months, if there is still a market for AAA JRPGs.
 
What

Whaaaaat

I mean uh... maybe for you, but it's kind of absurd how you seem incapable of understanding that this wouldn't apply to everyone.


Oh.

Ohhhh. This is one of those posts. I see. Nevermind then. Carry on with the memes, you mature job-working adult you.
Yeah, why would the ability to play at home or on a 1-3 hour commute be better then just playing at home. Absurd.
 
Being on console hasn't helped console Final Fantasy have a good story since 6 (Tactics and 14 aside I guess). "Final Fantasy calibur" hasn't many much in a long ass time.

Honestly, I don't think VI is that much above titles like VII or IX, having been through all 3 fairly close to one another I don't think VI is on a league of its own even if it is my favorite. From a "lore" perspective I actually like VII and its cyberpunk-ish setting over VI's, and both have their fair share of memorable scenes. I'd maybe throw X around too for its concepts alone, but replaying the HD remaster has opened my eyes to just how dated and awkward a lot of the cutscenes and dialogues feel in that game. I don't know if I can even blame the hardware for that one considering Metal Gear Solid 2's cutscene direction is still very... solid, and that came out at the start of the PS2's life too. FF X would need a lot of polish to work for a modern audience.

I love the idea of a "Final Fantasy calibur" though. Sounds like a crazy ass mix of Final Fantasy characters and Soul Calibur combat. Scrap Dissidia and just start working on that, Square. FF Calibur for Evo 2017 let's go.
 
Already read it.
Honestly, I don't think VI is that much above titles like VII or IX, having been through all 3 fairly close to one another I don't think VI is on a league of its own even if it is my favorite. From a "lore" perspective I actually like VII and its cyberpunk-ish setting over VI's, and both have their fair share of memorable scenes. I'd maybe throw X around too for its concepts alone, but replaying the HD remaster has opened my eyes to just how dated and awkward a lot of the cutscenes and dialogues feel in that game. I don't know if I can even blame the hardware for that one considering Metal Gear Solid 2's cutscene direction is still very... solid, and that came out at the start of the PS2's life too. FF X would need a lot of polish to work for a modern audience.

I love the idea of a "Final Fantasy calibur" though. Sounds like a crazy ass mix of Final Fantasy characters and Soul Calibur combat. Scrap Dissidia and just start working on that, Square. FF Calibur for Evo 2017 let's go.
I've always had a deep, personal hate for X's characters and dialogue. Nothing is as bad as FE Fates though, amazing how shithouse it is.
 
I'd maybe throw X around too for its concepts alone, but replaying the HD remaster has opened my eyes to just how dated and awkward a lot of the cutscenes and dialogues feel in that game. I don't know if I can even blame the hardware for that one considering Metal Gear Solid 2's cutscene direction is still very... solid, and that came out at the start of the PS2's life too. FF X would need a lot of polish to work for a modern audience.

FFX had some technical issues with the localization in that they were told they had to match the English voice acting to the on-screen action exactly.
 
An issue i've had with the genre, as someone that plays most of the recent ones (besides atelier, ew crafting), is that there are just WAY too many new releases that are nostalgia pandering.

Like the ratio is way off. It's almost as bad as platformers lol.



Maybe its due to the hostile nature of the industry that prevents 'risky' games, but still, sure would be nice if there was more games like FF15?

But the average jrpg budget is basically porn game territory these days...

Once again lol. There have been title which had zero nostalgia pandering like XenoX and TMS. The problem is, no one buy the game. Except if the title is Persona and FF. Hell, i even had hard time seeing DQ11 doing well on consoles when it is released on the west later.

And boom come the super hyperbole by the bold lol.

Not a new thing for me. >.> FFT, FF8, Xenosaga, more complicated/strategic battle systems always stumped me! Simple easier ta understand and can be more fun depending on the circumstances to.

I don't had problem with that. I just mention those who wanted more complex battle system for more Jrpg is basing themselves by the current market. There are simply harder nowadays to make a game with complex battle system and hope that it would sell well to the mainstream market.

I think it needs to be asked why anyone ought to buy them among all the AAA RPGs available in the first place. Like, the Souls game serve a particular audience, as do TES/Fallout (regardless of how one feels about their games), Witcher, Pokémon, Bravely, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age games. What are other AAA JRPGs bringing to the table?

Umm. u can said this to any kind of game not?
 

Thanks for explaining this so well, I pretty much agree on everything there.

Edit: As people are using anime to denote a certain sort of anime and besmirch it, there are also those using this context confusion to act like the complaint is ridiculous when it really isn't.

I swear I see this happen in every single thread where the term is thrown around and it's pretty frustrating lol.
 
I see, you just refuse to address what is said and prefer to post memes instead. Welcome to ignore I guess.

I mean, I find handhelds to be the most comfortable systems. Preferences I guess but have given them a proper shot? And if resolution and comfort is an issue there's always emulation which renders them much better.
 
Also FF10 has the best overall story in the series. 6's story is good but overrated. 7's is kind of deserving more praise in crucial areas. 9's story is fine for what it is. Pretty fun. Its main problem are the wasted characters but that's no different 6's. At this point, I'd say 6 is probably the most overrated FF.
 
Also FF10 has the best overall story in the series. 6's story is good but overrated. 7's is kind of deserving more praise in crucial areas. 9's story is fine for what it is. Pretty fun. Its main problem are the wasted characters but that's no different 6's. At this point, I'd say 6 is probably the most overrated FF.
You are dead to me
 
While I think that's a very fair point, I also think it's highly reductionist. A game like The World Ends With You or Dragon Quest IX doesn't feel small to me. Also, while BD has few "FF" moments, what about FF Type 0 and Crisis Core? Those are also handheld RPGs. Maybe it lacks those FF moments you crave because it was a design choice? As for SMTIV, while I can understand the criticism aimed at it - and I am one of those critics - I still it's a fantastic game, which is what I find most important.

I respect TWEWY but couldn't really get into it. The battle system was creative as hell and that's part of why I like JRPGs, but sometimes that creativity misses and it kind of did with me. I really didn't want to play that battle system. So, I didn't really get to see the scope of that.

FF Type 0 is like beyond trash writing, and the godawful VA doesn't help either. I liked the game for a while, but I still don't think that felt like it had a large scope when you compare it to some of the old games. Towns were tiny small hallways, and the overworld was bland garbage.

Crisis Core was overall a good game. It had some writing quirks *cough*Genesis*cough*, but overall I'd say it's solid.

What this also reminds me of, though, is that a lot of these games are built around being mobile. That's fine. They are mobile. I'm not going to blame them for designing around that, but that does put them in a far different space than old school RPGs. Type 0 and Crisis Core were really built around very quick play sessions in a way that those of us who want the genre to shine again didn't really have in mind when we ask "Where are the JRPGs?" So, it's kind of a twofold problem when you go to handhelds. For one, the budget is slashed even moreso, the scope is very limited, and corners are cut even more, along with some priorities that are just weird and along with that the stuff is designed from the bottom up for a mobile play style that maybe we're just not as into.

To me it's like wanting cake and being told to eat a ho-ho. Sure, I guess the experience is similar, but I'm going to be a bit down about the whole thing.
 
Didn't expect Rogue Galaxy to pop up as the example after reading the thread title. :lol

It's about as rote and by the numbers as it gets.
 
I picked up Xenoblade Chronicles X a few weeks ago, and it's blown away all expectations to become one of my top favorite RPGs of all time, J or W.

The amount of content in the game is staggering, and Skells might just be the best video game "vehicle" ever, producing a feeling unrivaled since getting the Epoch to fly in Chrono Trigger or being handed the keys to the Delphinus in Skies of Arcadia.

The story isn't hugely original, but it paints a great picture of humanity forced to survive and explore on a hostile alien world and learning to live with all sorts of alien species. It's sort of where I wanted the Mass Effect series to go after ME1, but it never did.
 
Also FF10 has the best overall story in the series. 6's story is good but overrated. 7's is kind of deserving more praise in crucial areas. 9's story is fine for what it is. Pretty fun. Its main problem are the wasted characters but that's no different 6's. At this point, I'd say 6 is probably the most overrated FF.

I would agree in an idealized world where X delivers on its premise with a better localization, voice acting and cutscene direction (upgrade it to the standards of the CGs. X has some really gorgeously directed CGs, probably the best in the series overall). As it is, I find its presentation a little too messy to call it the best story in the series. I still really like it though. Such a unique setting.

9 excels at presenting an adventure, moreso than any other title imo. I also remember the localization of that game being truly great. And something that has stuck to me in my current replay of 7 is how good its worldbuilding is, specially character backstories.
 
I would agree in an idealized world where X delivers on its premise with a better localization, voice acting and cutscene direction (upgrade it to the standards of the CGs. X has some really gorgeously directed CGs, probably the best in the series overall). As it is, I find its presentation a little too messy to call it the best story in the series. I still really like it though. Such a unique setting.

9 excels at presenting an adventure, moreso than any other title imo. I also remember the localization of that game being truly great. And something that has stuck to me in my current replay of 7 is how good its worldbuilding is, specially character backstories.

10 hits a lot of emotional beats for me. I also think it benefits from having such a strict game structure which allows it to have a great story. I also think it has the best world in the series. Spira feels realized and like an actual place. I'm not really shocked X was the first FF to get a sequel. Its story and world were that good. I think stuff like the translation/localization and sometimes flawed presentation are byproducts of its era and are in not indicative of the games true quality.

Still the first game to ever make me cry. FFIX has a better sense of adventure but I think loses steam somewhere in disc 2.
 
Is there a common point between the recent successful (say 500K+) JRPGs in the west?

*Pokemon: It's Pokemon.
*Dark Souls: Western aesthetic, deep action combat.
*Final Fantasy: It's Final Fantasy.
*Fire Emblem: Strategy game, relationship building for the army.
*Kingdom Hearts: It's Disney.
*Bravely Default: Excellent QOL features such as the random encounter slider, innovative combat.
*Valkyria Chronicles: Strategy shooter hybrid.
*Yokai Watch: Monster collecting like Pokemon, big marketing campaign.
*Mario & Luigi: It's Mario.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but looking at the list it's hard to pinpoint what JRPGs in general need to become big in the west.


There's no magic success bullet. Also, JRPGs aren't really selling less than they were at any point in the past (in the west). Fire Emblem Fates is probably already above the 2.27M that Final Fantasy Tactics sold on the PS1 back at the end of that system's run in 2003. And that's with FFT doing quite a bit better in Japan. In July 2014, 3-4 months after the US release, it was reported that Bravely Default had hit 600k copies in the west. There aren't a ton of PS1/PS2 era JRPGs that can boast better sales outside of Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Pokemon, and the Mario RPGs.

The genre seems to be dead because it never got the same sort of sales boosts that action/shooter games received, and therefore couldn't keep up with budget inflation necessary to deliver competitive visuals. Even the few big budget JRPGs have to factor this in. Final Fantasy VII's 9.7M worldwide sales made it the third or fourth biggest game of the generation. 9.7M now would maybe get you into the bottom part of an annual Top 10. As far as I know, Final Fantasy VII is still the best selling non-pokemon JRPG to date.
 

If Rogue Galaxy is considered "good" then most other jrpgs must be masterpieces. I liked the setting and the battle system wasn't terrible until around the halfway point where you noticed it was the most repetitive thing in the world, but everything else was the most by the numbers as you could get. The villians were only seen for a matter of minutes and the only thing they amounted to was "hohohoho I'm a bad guy" and then they just kinda show up at the end and turn into a battleship...., there was nothing more to them. While the main cast had next to no development past their "twist" in the story.
 
I picked up Xenoblade Chronicles X a few weeks ago, and it's blown away all expectations to become one of my top favorite RPGs of all time, J or W.

The amount of content in the game is staggering, and Skells might just be the best video game "vehicle" ever, producing a feeling unrivaled since getting the Epoch to fly in Chrono Trigger or being handed the keys to the Delphinus in Skies of Arcadia.

The story isn't hugely original, but it paints a great picture of humanity forced to survive and explore on a hostile alien world and learning to live with all sorts of alien species. It's sort of where I wanted the Mass Effect series to go after ME1, but it never did.

Yeahh another fans of X.^_^ You should try to do ALL the Normal mission lol. It would further expand the already great Alien World. It will give u more understanding on each races and their culture which can headbutt with human culture.^_^ It really gives me that LoGH vibe but on the game.^-^
 
Speaking of LoGH, maybe if we're loud enough we can get Yoshiki Tanaka to write the story for the next Fire Emblem or something.
You hear that, Intelligent Systems? That's the dude you want for intricate political plots and war settings, not freaking Get Backers guy.
 
I'm not sure about that. I replayed CT recently and the writing itself is fairly solid. The characters are somewhat basic archetypes, but they're not the "fanservice bait" kind of characters most people in these threads complain about. Ayla's design might have been bashed though.

Also, are we talking 3D Chrono or a straight up port of the game as it is? Because if it was 3D, then yes, a lot could be screwed up in the presentation, but if you look at other games with Horii's involvement, like Dragon Quest VIII, they seem mostly immune to the sorts of criticisms you see towards modern JRPGs. In fact, I've seen a lot of praise to DQ VIII's voice acting, so if CT was handled like that, I think it would be regarded as a return to form even by a modern audience. There are a lot of modern design sensibilities on that game, moreso than many current games of the genre.

We're talking about straight up 3D modern version of the game. Dragon Quest 8 came out 10 years ago, so it plays well to people's memories so its not a good example to use.

If we're talking about DQ11's reception in the west, it will still be plagued by general irrelevance and the same common criticism of the genre not evolving and staying stagnant. In the modern era, games feel like they are expected to grow while staying the exact same, which honestly to me feels like too great a contradiction.

My issue is that people are saying there is a problem in the genre, when there have not been any real huge games to push the genre to begin with for years. The closest ones coming up are Persona 5, DQ 11 and obviously FF15. But people are casting their aspersions and modern feelings onto low end budget modern era games as if they are essentially representative of the pinaccle the genre can accomlpish, which i think is unfair.

There are people who say that JRPG's suck in general compared to western games regardless of what they do, there are people who say that JRPGs need to adapt western conventions and stories like TLOU and Uncharted even though these are not even RPGs and generally are not very good examples. We have people saying that only very modern RPG's on console are a mess, we have people saying handheld games are good, we have people saying that even older console JRPG's were bad to begin with.

So many conflicting opinions, i feel we'll never truly get to the bottom of a consensus on what people disaffected from the genre really want to begin with from it
 
Speaking of LoGH, maybe if we're loud enough we can get Yoshiki Tanaka to write the story for the next Fire Emblem or something.
You hear that, Intelligent Systems? That's the dude you want for intricate political plots and war settings, not freaking Get Backers guy.

I'd take either him or Murayama.
 
Comparing LoGH? You have my attention.

Wait wait wait. Don't come into the game looking for Reinhard level of MC lol.

But, the world building is great.^_^ The fact that Monolith Soft really build this one whole alien planet being believable and it had a huge amount of lore and culture of each alien slowly explained while still leaving huge amount of mystery to follow is something that makes me into X junkies lol.^_^ U see how Human are afraid when Xeno's come to stay in their society.

U see Human become divided between those who are pros and cons to the Xenos.

U see Xenos some who try to adapt to human culture and some who had huge difficulties assimilating the culture of human.

My favorite, some Xeno's get addicted to PIZZA lol. What a game.^_^

Speaking of LoGH, maybe if we're loud enough we can get Yoshiki Tanaka to write the story for the next Fire Emblem or something.
You hear that, Intelligent Systems? That's the dude you want for intricate political plots and war settings, not freaking Get Backers guy.

Dammit. IS better not take Tanaka away from his table here. I want him to finish Arlsan and Tytania first dammmit. Stop doing Hiatus Senki pleaseeeee.T_T
 
We're talking about straight up 3D modern version of the game. Dragon Quest 8 came out 10 years ago, so it plays well to people's memories so its not a good example to use.

If we're talking about DQ11's reception in the west, it will still be plagued by general irrelevance and the same common criticism of the genre not evolving and staying stagnant. In the modern era, games feel like they are expected to grow while staying the exact same, which honestly to me feels like too great a contradiction.

My issue is that people are saying there is a problem in the genre, when there have not been any real huge games to push the genre to begin with for years. The closest ones coming up are Persona 5, DQ 11 and obviously FF15. But people are casting their aspersions and modern feelings onto low end budget modern era games as if they are essentially representative of the pinaccle the genre can accomlpish, which i think is unfair.

There are people who say that JRPG's suck in general compared to western games regardless of what they do, there are people who say that JRPGs need to adapt western conventions and stories like TLOU and Uncharted even though these are not even RPGs and generally are not very good examples. We have people saying that only very modern RPG's on console are a mess, we have people saying handheld games are good, we have people saying that even older console JRPG's were bad to begin with.

So many conflicting opinions, i feel we'll never truly get to the bottom of a consensus on what people disaffected from the genre really want to begin with from it

DQ's innovations mostly come through the story. Since we know so little (nothing) about the story it's hard to say anything about it. But these people don't know that. Because they're not DQ fans. I'm hoping for a DQ with a lot of inspiration like 4, 5, and 7. It being Horii's final DQ and all.


Wait wait wait. Don't come into the game looking for Reinhard level of MC lol.

But, the world building is great.^_^ The fact that Monolith Soft really build this one whole alien planet being believable and it had a huge amount of lore and culture of each alien slowly explained while still leaving huge amount of mystery to follow is something that makes me into X junkies lol.^_^ U see how Human are afraid when Xeno's come to stay in their society.

U see Human become divided between those who are pros and cons to the Xenos.

U see Xenos some who try to adapt to human culture and some who had huge difficulties assimilating the culture of human.

My favorite, some Xeno's get addicted to PIZZA lol. What a game.^_^



Dammit. IS better not take Tanaka away from his table here. I want him to finish Arlsan and Tytania first dammmit. Stop doing Hiatus Senki pleaseeeee.T_T

Sounds good. Let me borrow your Wii u.
 
Is there a common point between the recent successful (say 500K+) JRPGs in the west?

*Pokemon: It's Pokemon.
*Dark Souls: Western aesthetic, deep action combat.
*Final Fantasy: It's Final Fantasy.
*Fire Emblem: Strategy game, relationship building for the army.
*Kingdom Hearts: It's Disney.
*Bravely Default: Excellent QOL features such as the random encounter slider, innovative combat.
*Valkyria Chronicles: Strategy shooter hybrid.
*Yokai Watch: Monster collecting like Pokemon, big marketing campaign.
*Mario & Luigi: It's Mario.

I'm sure I'm missing something, but looking at the list it's hard to pinpoint what JRPGs in general need to become big in the west.

The most successful of these I think, Kingdom Hearts and Dark Souls and Final Fantasy (at least used to be), are a few things.

They're all reasonably accessible to a degree. Their gameplay is neither too simple nor too complex for anyone to pick up and play, but also for auteurs to go wild with and get all the secret stuff. They all have interesting universes with interesting characters and lore to explore. They have the production value and art design to have the "it" factor in a global audience.

This is how Final Fantasy VII won people over at that time I think. It wasn't just the cutscenes, though they were a big sell. Final Fantasy VII *should* be the bar that is used for how to deliver a successful AAA JRPG to the international audience. But the format is not being followed outside "make the characters and cutscenes look cool." That was a big part of FF VII, but it was not nearly the entire experience that people remember even 20 years later.

It was the accessible, but brilliant world and great JRPG gameplay mechanics that brought the whole thing to life and it's the whole package that make people still love it today.

JRPGs today don't offer that "whole package (tm)" anymore in an internationally digestible format. And when they do offer most of those things, the packaging is weird, or the brand name is not the right one, or the target audience for marketing is not right, or the art design is off-putting, or it's straight up only otaku crowd chasing for some reason.
 
I see, you just refuse to address what is said and prefer to post memes instead. Welcome to ignore I guess.
Hmmm... I mean if anything, GAF is biased against handhelds, so I don't think your position is widely misunderstood or under threat.

That's also why people react negatively to it. Can't tell you how many times I've seen comments that seem completely ignorant that handhelds exist and have games, some of which are very good. That is where JRPGs are now. It's also not a problem of the genre that they are there. There really aren't many design sensibilities of a handheld that could ruin the experience. The games tend to be slow paced and it is not like allowing you to save anywhere is a bad thing. Moreover, the genre would be dead if all those DS/PSP/3DS games had tried to come out as PS3 or PS4 games with those production values. Perhaps as Wii games things could've worked. So it is at most an unfortunate mismatch between your hardware/software preferences that happens to also align with their main audience's preferences and their budgets.
...

That said, I mostly agree with your particular complaints. My old 3DS killed my hands to play. n3DS XL is better. I also like games designed around extended play sessions and I play my games that way, even on portables, making little use of their portability.

Only thing I don't really give a shit about is the screen size and the graphics capabilities. Give me an ergonomic handheld and I'll happily play it like a home console, not regretting that I'm not at the TV. If that is where the games are, that is where they are and where I will be. Making it worse is that good taste is ephemeral and people can be really hard headed about it when it serves their purposes to be so.

As it is, I'll play it somewhat unhappily.

Thanks for explaining this so well, I pretty much agree on everything there.



I swear I see this happen in every single thread where the term is thrown around and it's pretty frustrating lol.

Yep. It really makes the old 'anime' debate frustrating to watch. One side being headstrong and polemical and the other side ignoring the broad point and hiding behind cherry-picking old examples that might not even fit the phenomenon being railed against. As the two sides don't evenly meet, you get pages and pages of fruitless back and forth.
 
Yep. It really makes the old 'anime' debate frustrating to watch. One side being headstrong and polemical and the other side ignoring the broad point and hiding behind cherry-picking old examples that might not even fit the phenomenon being railed against. As the two sides don't evenly meet, you get pages and pages of fruitless back and forth.

Which is the main problem when we are discussing anime old vs new right? I can see how some said that moe is becoming bigger vs older times. That i agree. But putting all of them into one whole set while ignoring the other genre which does not focus on Moe only to push his point is bad.

The easiest conclusion i can give here is. Older animes also had tons of moe,lol, waifu and fanservice. It is not something strange like we can see with CCS, SM, TMM,etc.

But the recent newer animes, the anime which focus more on that aspect is rising in popularity in japan which end up making them look much bigger which causes the casual anime fans to believe that nowadays, the only thing left for anime is only moe things even when it is not true.
 
Which is the main problem when we are discussing anime old vs new right? I can see how some said that moe is becoming bigger vs older times. That i agree. But putting all of them into one whole set while ignoring the other genre which does not focus on Moe only to push his point is bad.

The easiest conclusion i can give here is. Older animes also had tons of moe,lol, waifu and fanservice. It is not something strange like we can see with CCS, SM, TMM,etc.

But the recent newer animes, the anime which focus more on that aspect is rising in popularity in japan which end up making them look much bigger which causes the casual anime fans to believe that nowadays, the only thing left for anime is only moe things even when it is not true.

I meant old as in 'frequent, common, tired,' but yeah talk about old anime as in 80s, 90s anime is a huge part of that.
 
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