Support NeoGAF

[Kosma]

yep

not gonna replay 20/30 hours just for that ending, real silly I couldnt get the stuff at the end of the game

im ok with missing side content like

Spoiler

cainhurst castle

but not this

just like in demon souls you really seem to need to play with a guide or accept that youll miss 25% of the game or so

 

[eot]

yep

not gonna replay 20/30 hours just for that ending, real silly I couldnt get the stuff at the end of the game

im ok with missing side content like

Spoiler

cainhurst castle

but not this

just like in demon souls you really seem to need to play with a guide or accept that youll miss 25% of the game or so

How is missing that any different? I'd say it's a bigger deal even.

 

[Cyrano]

im still bitter i cant get that ending without replaying the game, which i never do

Completionist thing, wanted to see the boss or?

I beat the game multiple times, first time I didn't use any guides so I got the neutral ending. Was super unhappy the first time I played the game because the bosses got so easy, then discovered the memory glitch. Was actually not exceptionally satisfied even after going back and beating all the bosses with all their moves, as in some cases the memory glitch actually makes certain bosses more difficult. Still, playing through the game with an Arcane build and then a Skill build does give the game a new flavor and eventually I got around to fighting everything. Trying Bloodtinge out at the moment but am not super-satisfied. Everyone tells me it gets better but I'm already at the third phase of the game and am still waiting for that to happen. Dread having to fight

Spoiler

Logarius

with the Threaded Cane. Evelyn is a cool gun but not nearly as cool as I was hoping and the Blunderbuss still seems the most powerful and consistent sidearm in the game.

 

[CambriaRising]

yep

not gonna replay 20/30 hours just for that ending, real silly I couldnt get the stuff at the end of the game

im ok with missing side content like

Spoiler

cainhurst castle

but not this

just like in demon souls you really seem to need to play with a guide or accept that youll miss 25% of the game or so

You aren't missing anything. That ending is garbage compared to the others.

Spoiler

and yes I understand the point but it's still stupid.

 

[burgerdog]

Looks like the lighting change is simply an engine tweak and not a DX11 exclusive thing. I just took some shots from the dlc areas in vanilla and SotFS, the only difference is the vastly superior SSAO in the DX11 version.

DX11

Vanilla

DX11

Vanilla

DX11

Vanilla

 

[Kosma]

Completionist thing, wanted to see the boss or?
.

Just when I beat a game, especially one long and challenging like this Id like to see the real ending, not on youtube.

 

[ZangBa]

Spoiler

Gehrman

is still my favorite. Beautifully executed fight and location. The

Spoiler

Moon Presence actually kinda ruined it for me

. I liked the neutral ending. It felt... fitting, given the cyclical nature of the games.

I agree with everything here, but

Spoiler

Abhorrent Beast

is easier to re-fight after you've beaten him

Spoiler

(by that I mean it's easier to create another Chalice Dungeon you know he's in than replaying the entire game.)

Completionist thing, wanted to see the boss or?

I beat the game multiple times, first time I didn't use any guides so I got the neutral ending. Was super unhappy the first time I played the game because the bosses got so easy, then discovered the memory glitch. Was actually not exceptionally satisfied even after going back and beating all the bosses with all their moves, as in some cases the memory glitch actually makes certain bosses more difficult. Still, playing through the game with an Arcane build and then a Skill build does give the game a new flavor and eventually I got around to fighting everything. Trying Bloodtinge out at the moment but am not super-satisfied. Everyone tells me it gets better but I'm already at the third phase of the game and am still waiting for that to happen. Dread having to fight

Spoiler

Logarius

with the Threaded Cane. Evelyn is a cool gun but not nearly as cool as I was hoping and the Blunderbuss still seems the most powerful and consistent sidearm in the game.

I just did a Bloodtinge run and stopped playing shortly after

Spoiler

Logarius

. I didn't upgrade my gun at all, so I was basically relying on my Saw Cleaver+6 the entire run with base stats in SKL/STR. All I can say is it took forever with wet noodle damage, and his first phase is way more annoying than the 2nd.

 

[Sami+]

Maybe you never noticed them?

Frankly, I wonder if people would have complained about DS II as much if they never knew that Miyazaki wasn't the director.

The "B Team" thing didn't start until people were disappointed with DkS2 after release and cross-referenced the credits to see what the deal was. It was actually here on GAF, so many posts in that thread were like "oh that explains it".

 

[Rurunaki]

Completionist thing, wanted to see the boss or?

I beat the game multiple times, first time I didn't use any guides so I got the neutral ending. Was super unhappy the first time I played the game because the bosses got so easy, then discovered the memory glitch. Was actually not exceptionally satisfied even after going back and beating all the bosses with all their moves, as in some cases the memory glitch actually makes certain bosses more difficult. Still, playing through the game with an Arcane build and then a Skill build does give the game a new flavor and eventually I got around to fighting everything. Trying Bloodtinge out at the moment but am not super-satisfied. Everyone tells me it gets better but I'm already at the third phase of the game and am still waiting for that to happen. Dread having to fight

Spoiler

Logarius

with the Threaded Cane. Evelyn is a cool gun but not nearly as cool as I was hoping and the Blunderbuss still seems the most powerful and consistent sidearm in the game.

Bone Marrow Ash for bosses. Also Cannon ftw.

 

[EatinOlives]

I've seen this a lot lately and I completely disagree. People are complaining about the vials because they are so used to getting infinite flasks they can just start at a bonfire, run back to the boss and do it all over again. In BB, you have to weigh the risk and reward for using a vial at a specific time since they are a finite source. This should in turn cause people to focus more so on dodging and learning a boss instead of trying to run in, whack it with R1, using up all of their vials, and then complaining when they have to get more.

Not to mention you can buy a bunch of vials for relatively few echoes. I've no idea why people insist on "grinding" for vials when they could simply buy them.

And yeah, it goes without saying that if you're constantly running out of vials there's something you're doing wrong, i.e. you're dying too much or just spamming them. If you focus on using them conservatively (which by extension means doing everything possible to prevent damage) you gain them quicker than you use them. You also have to know when to quit. If you know a fight is going poorly don't just chug the vials down to zero, just say "ok, no more vials" and if you die, you die. Regroup and start over.

Like you said, too many people think Vials work like Estus, and thus start treating it like them. If you don't make efforts to conserve the vials and always keep your stock full or close to full you're going to run out of vials, but that's not on the game, that's on you.

I only grinded at Cleric Beast and Father G, back and the beginning when I didn't quite grasp that. Ever since then I never had to grind since. IMO the vial grinding is way overplayed.

 

[Cyrano]

I agree with everything here, but

Spoiler

Abhorrent Beast

is easier to re-fight after you've beaten him

Spoiler

(by that I mean it's easier to create another Chalice Dungeon you know he's in than replaying the entire game.)

Well you can fight him in the actual game and his location seems like he was just made to be cheesed. Like seriously, so much cheese. So finding him in the Chalice dungeon later, I couldn't help but giggle a bit. Definitely a cool design and the few lines he has in the actual game sound radical.

I just did a Bloodtinge run and stopped playing shortly after

Spoiler

Logarius

. I didn't upgrade my gun at all, so I was basically relying on my Saw Cleaver+6 the entire run with base stats in SKL/STR. All I can say is it took forever with wet noodle damage, and his first phase is way more annoying than the 2nd.

Upgrading the gun does provide HUGE bonuses. It's just that a huge bonus to not a lot of damage still seems to lead to... not a lot of damage. =/

I'm trying a pure Bloodtinge build too though, so not investing the 30 STR necessary for the Cannon. I like exploring with NG builds because you get a different feeling from weapons when they gotta grow as you play. I can say that if I tried to go through with a Bloodtinge build on my first playthrough I probably would not have made it. Guns just start off so unimpressive. But it was the same with Arcane initially and I ended up liking that build a lot, for all its faults. So who knows. Gotta keep pushing. I might wait until phase three to actually get Chikage. I'm not sure I wanna grind my ahead against that wall, mostly because of how long the run back to the boss is.

Bone Marrow Ash for bosses. Also Cannon ftw.

Yeah, I should do this. I've developed bad habits regarding item use due to past Souls experience. Should use Ash more liberally once given access to it.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

You must not utilize the Blood Bullets then. Blood Vial's scale with your health, so it's not like you're chugging them when your life goes below 50%. If you're running out of vials on bosses, could only mean you're being as wreckless as you possibly can.

I specifically said that it's unlikely you would use up 20 vials on a single boss fight. It's when you use a few each fight and keep losing to a boss. Depending on how many times you lose, you'll eventually run out.

I just gotta roll my eyes. It's hilarious to see this combination of words, though: "feels to me" mixed with "objectively". Words and their meanings, y'know? xD

I don't really see the big deal. I can't imagine any rational reason for thinking the vial system is better. I made sure to hedge it as my opinion, but I'm confident in saying it's flat out worse than the Estus Flasks.

But none of that matters when the game has aged so badly. The combat, animations, sound, level design, graphics, controls etc are 2 generations ahead in Bloodborne. Its really hard to go back to Dark souls 2.

Really? I'm playing both Scholar of the First Sin and Bloodborne right now and I don't get this at all. The combat does feel smoother in Bloodborne, and the camera especially is better, but do you think it looks that much better? I honestly think a lot of Bloodborne is pretty damn ugly, especially for a native PS4 game. It certainly doesn't look anywhere nearly good enough to justify the poor performance, but neither did Demon's Souls, I suppose.

 

[Hypron]

Yeah they're hard and the regain system doesn't work so well here because the openings are so few, especially

Spoiler

Abhorrent Beast

.

Actually, talking about the regain system - the health you regain depends on the weapon you use and it's next to useless on some weapons. The health regain on the kirkhammer is pathetically low for example. The only wait to regain a significant amount of health is to do a charged R2 attack. With the kirksword a 5-6 hits combo will regain maybe 25-30% of my health, and takes way too long. In comparison, a 5-6 hits combo with the burial blade takes me from 1hp to close to full hp (tested on the

Spoiler

moon presence

).

So if you're using one of those weapons that don't regain much health at all you're bound to end up using more vials.

 

[Neoweee]

I beat the game multiple times, first time I didn't use any guides so I got the neutral ending. Was super unhappy the first time I played the game because the bosses got so easy, then discovered the memory glitch. Was actually not exceptionally satisfied even after going back and beating all the bosses with all their moves, as in some cases the memory glitch actually makes certain bosses more difficult.

There is no memory glitch. The Boss AI is just really, really easy to bait and lure into doing the same moves over and over.

 

[Fhtagn]

There is no memory glitch. The Boss AI is just really, really easy to bait and lure into doing the same moves over and over.

No, there absolutely is some kind of glitch; I've seen videos of bosses acting dead stupid with no relationship to what the player is doing, nothing like any of the fights I've had with those bosses. EDOTC never just does a headslam 100% of the time, without the glitch, but with it does. Does not matter what the player does.

 

[squidyj]

Using L3 to jump feels better to me than using O.

But the worst offender in BB for me is having to travel twice to change locations. It is so bad, and takes so long. The Blood vials idea is also weird to me. I much prefer the Estus flask. I like to do coop when I reach bosses, and after a few sessions of helping other players I either have to go and buy some or to grind for them. Both are terrible, to be honest.

this is actually the worst thing, having to deal with 2 load screens every time I want to go somewhere is fucking infuriating.


Edit: There is a glitch. first time I fought one boss he did two moves, and one of them was super easy for me to bait and parry. the second time i was like "yo what the fuck is this guy doing? I aint never seen this shit before!"
Same thing where another boss spammed two of his easiest moves all fight and I trololoed my way to victory.

 

[Hugstable]

Not to mention you can buy a bunch of vials for relatively few echoes. I've no idea why people insist on "grinding" for vials when they could simply buy them.

Unless you are in the very last portion of the game or in NG+, it will take alot longer to grind up the necessary Blood Echoes during the early or mid game to buy vials then to just farm them from Central Yharham fatties or Grand Catherdral big assholes

 

[bobawesome]

Was super unhappy the first time I played the game because the bosses got so easy, then discovered the memory glitch.

This pretty much killed any satisfaction the game gave me. Now I feel I have to beat the game a fifth time so I can fight the bosses as they were intended.

 

[JediLink]

Blood vials in this game are so fucked. It's the one thing the holy "A team" really dropped the ball on. What they should have been is a complement to the regain system - you'd prefer to conserve your blood vials, so you instead try to regain health through the other ways the games give you. Where it falls apart is that the regain system is super weak. If you get hit with any kind of really strong attack that takes more than half of your health, there's no fucking way you're getting any sizeable chunk of that back unless you're lucky enough to be fighting an enemy that can be parried and also are lucky enough to get a visceral attack in the short few seconds the game gives you. So you're just going to pop a vial. Every time. There's no real risk or decision to it, 90% of the time it's the clear better option and it's just going to end with you having to farm them again.

Here's what it should have actually been:

• Blood vials auto-refill like estus, but you only have a very limited amount like five or ten for emergency situations only.
• Regain system in general lets you get back a lot more health with a much more generous time period.
• Visceral attacks should refill your health by default. Like Zandatsus in MGR.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Stick to jump is just so superior.

1. No risk of making a jump when you want to dodge
2. It's easier to jump at the last possible moment when it's mapped to a separate button, rather than being forced to do the awkward circle double tap.

The one thing I really miss from DS II are the great covenants and PVP systems. From what I've read, it all just seems so convoluted in Bloodborne. I hope DLC adds some fun ways to PVP.

 

[Cyrano]

There is no memory glitch. The Boss AI is just really, really easy to bait and lure into doing the same moves over and over.

There is absolutely a memory glitch that happens if you leave the game on for a long time. It happens as a result of a memory leak and the bosses all stop using a lot of their moves and abilities. It is SUPER obnoxious. And it sucks. And holy crap how was something so large and obvious missed in debugging? But yeah, by my third playthrough I had managed to fight all the bosses with all their moves as intended. It sucks that you have to reset the game constantly to fight the bosses as intended though. C'est la vie in the world of always online patching.

There are some enemies whose abilities are super easy to bait but for the most part the bosses kept me on my toes. I still think the larger bosses have some pretty garbage hitboxes but other than that I think they're fine.

 

[Fhtagn]

And holy crap how was something so large and obvious missed in debugging?

The suspend/resume feature arrived two days after the game launched. It causes all sorts of problems for Bloodborne that need patching, but it's hard to test against something that doesn't exist in final form before you ship.

 

[Cyrano]

The suspend/resume feature arrived two days after the game launched. It causes all sorts of problems for Bloodborne that need patching, but it's hard to test against something that doesn't exist in final form before you ship.

Mmm... it happened as a result of long play periods and while it may have been aggravated by the suspend/resume, it wasn't the cause. Still, it is true the dropping of a major PS4 patch right before Bloodborne didn't help matters.

 

[la_briola]

IW are not the same IW they used to be. IW that made COD2 and COD4 are the GOAT COD Dev.

Doesn't change the fact that Dark Souls 2 is the best Souls game to date, but I guess you didn't disagree with me on that.

 

[Fhtagn]

Doesn't change the fact that Dark Souls 2 is the best Souls game to date.

This is not a popular opinion, and frankly unless you are really into pvp and don't hate soul memory somehow, I feel like if you think DS 2 is the best Souls game, you just really like DS2 and not "Souls" cuz it's so clearly the worst game by a wide margin at most of what (imho) makes Souls (and now BB) Souls.

I still like DS 2 plenty, I just think if you think it's the best you and I probably have very different priorities about the game design.

 

[la_briola]

This is not a popular opinion, and frankly unless you are really into pvp and don't hate soul memory somehow, I feel like if you think DS 2 is the best Souls game, you just really like DS2 and not "Souls" cuz it's so clearly the worst game by a wide margin at most of what (imho) makes Souls (and now BB) Souls.

I still like DS 2 plenty, I just think if you think it's the best you and I probably have very different priorities about the game design.

PvP (including covenants), build diversity, weapon, spell and gameplay wise it's the best. Doesn't matter if this is an unpopular opinion.
I'm not alone, we are just in the minority and that's just fine.

edit: also native 60 fps.

 

[CambriaRising]

Doesn't change the fact that Dark Souls 2 is the best Souls game to date, but I guess you didn't disagree with me on that.

I could have sworn "fact" meant something different than this.

 

[Fhtagn]

PvP (including covenants), build diversity, weapon, spell and gameplay wise it's the best. Doesn't matter if this is an unpopular opinion.
I'm not alone, we are just in the minority and that's just fine.

edit: also native 60 fps.

Level design and story is leagues worse than the other games, and Soul Memory is a spectacularly stupid idea that made my attempts at pvp a very boring "oh hey look it's another power leveled hexing Havel." If they had made soul memory only matter in NG and gone back to level matching in NG+, that would have been (and still would) ideal.

 

[Zaventem]

I just can't see the omission of L3 jumping being anything but intentional. The option to switch between two buttons must be one of the easiest things to implement.

Perhaps we'll have to purchase the Bloodborne DLC in order to access L3 jumping?!

Isn't L3 swapping between two button prompt commands? How did they handle that in Dark Souls 2 I don't remember. Also unless i'm not remembering correctly after using souls from the inventory it didn't auto close it out in Dark Souls 1.

 

[ZangBa]

This is not a popular opinion, and frankly unless you are really into pvp and don't hate soul memory somehow, I feel like if you think DS 2 is the best Souls game, you just really like DS2 and not "Souls" cuz it's so clearly the worst game by a wide margin at most of what (imho) makes Souls (and now BB) Souls.

I still like DS 2 plenty, I just think if you think it's the best you and I probably have very different priorities about the game design.

So if you like DS2 the best, you just don't like souls games? Incredible. I prefer gameplay over everything else and it's why I personally play the games, and for me, DS2 provides the most variety in builds with the best controls, with functional online play and great covenants. I couldn't care less about taking screenshots then comparing them to a PS4 game and complaining it lacks detail, or there being 3 shortcuts that go to same place when you don't need any of them anyway. "world cohesion" means nothing to me. I don't care if an elevator takes me to a lava castle and makes no sense, if I have fun playing in that area, it doesn't matter. I had fun throughout the whole game, and one of my favorite areas in the series is No-Mans Wharf. Replayability ultimately keeps me playing, and DS2 undoubtedly provides the most, and it doesn't make me any less of a fan for that.

 

[Cyrano]

Level design and story is leagues worse than the other games, and Soul Memory is a spectaculay stupid idea that made my attempts at pvp a very boring "oh hey look it's another power leveled hexing Havel." If they had made soul memory only matter in NG and gone back to level matching in NG+, that would have been (and still would) ideal.

Well, the Soul Memory thing is at least semi-fixed via the special ring they added. At this point, all the technical faults to Dark Souls 2 now have technical solutions. From a mechanics and customization perspective, Dark Souls 2 is leagues ahead of all the other games. There are just a ton of viable, interesting options for playing the game, PvE of PvP. And most of this is due to the aggressive patching.

If we're talking level design or narrative, Demon's Souls is still my favorite hands down. I don't think I'll ever forget the Astraea battle. Demon's Souls by far has the most memorable and consistently interesting characters of any of the Miyazaki games. Bloodborne's world is definitely a character, but the game itself doesn't really have anyone particularly memorable in my mind. The doll and the

Spoiler

Tear Stone

is kinda neat but it still doesn't really do much to evoke a response. The world itself is what is trying to evoke a response and I think in that measure, Bloodborne succeeds.

 

[Fhtagn]

So if you like DS2 the best, you just don't like souls games? Incredible. I prefer gameplay over everything else and it's why I personally play the games, and for me, DS2 provides the most variety in builds with the best controls, with functional online play and great covenants. I couldn't care less about taking screenshots then comparing them to a PS4 game and complaining it lacks detail, or there being 3 shortcuts that go to same place when you don't need any of them anyway. "world cohesion" means nothing to me. I don't care if an elevator takes me to a lava castle and makes no sense, if I have fun playing in that area, it doesn't matter. I had fun throughout the whole game, and one of my favorite areas in the series is No-Mans Wharf. Replayability ultimately keeps me playing, and DS2 undoubtedly provides the most, and it doesn't make me any less of a fan for that.

I mean what I said. If you like Dark Souls 2 the best, to the point of stating as a incontrovertible fact, then your priorities are very different than mine, and very different than the priorities expressed in the game design of the other 75% of Souls games. So, ergo, you like DkS 2. If it's a narrow win, then what I say doesn't apply to you.

I like DkS 2 a lot but I could rant for hours about the poorly executed ideas it is full of, and the bad level design, the hitboxes, soul memory, infinite rings that protect your souls on hand, the dozens of bonfires sapping any tension out of exploring, the warp from start compounding that issue, the enemies that never run out of stamina, the occasional lapses into making things "hard" for no reason, the vague lame story...

The durability system is awesome though, that's a big win in its favor. And I love No Man's Wharf and Huntsman's Copse and the Iron Keep, etc. It is not a bad game, but it pales in comparison to the other games such that friends of mine I got hooked on Dark Souls immediately stopped playing it because it felt so wrong and worse to them and I can't blame them even if I've beaten it twice and most of a third time.

 

[Zaventem]

So if you like DS2 the best, you just don't like souls games? Incredible. I prefer gameplay over everything else and it's why I personally play the games, and for me, DS2 provides the most variety in builds with the best controls, with functional online play and great covenants. I couldn't care less about taking screenshots then comparing them to a PS4 game and complaining it lacks detail, or there being 3 shortcuts that go to same place when you don't need any of them anyway. "world cohesion" means nothing to me. I don't care if an elevator takes me to a lava castle and makes no sense, if I have fun playing in that area, it doesn't matter. I had fun throughout the whole game, and one of my favorite areas in the series is No-Mans Wharf. Replayability ultimately keeps me playing, and DS2 undoubtedly provides the most, and it doesn't make me any less of a fan for that.

Garbage level design affects everything. It's not even the lava castle but how level design took a step back to be more western like. An after the effort put in past games of course people are going to speak out. They made a change people didn't like and they went back thankfully, so it did matter to people. As for my opinion on Dks 2 I wont even be picking up the HD turbo remix because those changes shown in the thread on neogaf are still disappointing.

 

[Fhtagn]

Well, the Soul Memory thing is at least semi-fixed via the special ring they added.

That is such a terrible band aid, IMHO. It badly affects any build that relies on consumables, for example. If the point of soul memory is to keep new players from being griefed, I am all for it, but never switching over to soul level matching means it's coming at the cost of ruining pvp...

Now obviously other folks disagree because there's a community who enjoys the pvp and arranges fight clubs and what not, but the endless Havel mages I ran into really soured me on it.

 

[Cyrano]

I like DkS 2 a lot but I could rant for hours about the poorly executed ideas it is full of, and the bad level design, the hitboxes, soul memory, infinite rings that protect your souls on hand, the dozens of bonfires sapping any tension out of exploring, the warp from start compounding that issue, the enemies that never run out of stamina, the occasional lapses into making things "hard" for no reason, the vague lame story...

A lot of this stuff returns in Bloodborne, so I don't think most of these are your actual complaints... bad hitboxes are pretty prevalent in Bloodborne, you can warp right from the start, the third phase of BB makes a good part of the game hard for no reason (and hard in a manner in which you have no recourse--

Spoiler

cthulu lasers, infinitely reviving enemies until you kill bell maidens

), some enemies never run out of stamina (the BB dogs in particular will attack you right away if you hit them out of their attack animations). Lamps are often weirdly distributed, sometimes right next to each other and sometimes extremely disconnected, giving the areas themselves a feeling of being inconsistent (probably intentional). Past a certain point, as with all these "heavy" action games, these problems pop up pretty regularly.

BB has its share of specific combat problems too, mostly relating to extraordinary hitstun, being able to be hit while prone (which you can't do to enemies, but they can do to you), and grabs.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Garbage level design affects everything. It's not even the lava castle but how level design took a step back to be more western like. An after the effort put in past games of course people are going to speak out. They made a change people didn't like and they went back thankfully, so it did matter to people. As for my opinion on Dks 2 I wont even be picking up the HD turbo remix because those changes shown in the thread on neogaf are still disappointing.

What makes the level design garbage? What makes good level design?

 

[MoxManiac]

What makes the level design garbage? What makes good level design?

For that matter how is it more Western-like?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

For that matter how is it more Western-like?

I imagine he is going to cite the linearity of most of the levels, but that most certainly is not exclusive to western game design.

 

[Fhtagn]

A lot of this stuff returns in Bloodborne, so I don't think most of these are your actual complaints... bad hitboxes are pretty prevalent in Bloodborne, you can warp right from the start, the third phase of BB makes a good part of the game hard for no reason (and hard in a manner in which you have no recourse--

Spoiler

cthulu lasers, infinitely reviving enemies until you kill bell maidens

), some enemies never run out of stamina (the BB dogs in particular will attack you right away if you hit them out of their attack animations). Lamps are often weirdly distributed, sometimes right next to each other and sometimes extremely disconnected, giving the areas themselves a feeling of being inconsistent (probably intentional). Past a certain point, as with all these "heavy" action games, these problems pop up pretty regularly.

Oddly enough and YMMV of course, none of that bothers me in BB. The only suspect hitboxes I've encountered work in my favor, unlike the hated hippo vacuum grab head bite in DkS2 that is my most hated thing in that game. The bell maidens are fine and easily dispatched with. The distance between lanterns makes the warp from start not matter; I still got "the fear" while exploring, which DkS 2 never really gave me. The dogs are tricky but are very easily stunned with guns. I am 75+ hours deep, running in rotten fetid depth 5 chalices and still haven't found anything as annoying as the Ancient Dragon or the endless stamina club dudes in DkS 2.

 

[Cyrano]

Oddly enough and YMMV of course, none of that bothers me in BB. The only suspect hitboxes I've encountered work in my favor, unlike the hated hippo vacuum grab head bite in DkS2 that is my most hated thing in that game. The bell maidens are fine and easily dispatched with. The distance between lanterns makes the warp from start not matter; I still got "the fear" while exploring, which DkS 2 never really gave me. The dogs are tricky but are very easily stunned with guns. I am 75+ hours deep, running in rotten fetid depth 5 chalices and still haven't found anything as annoying as the Ancient Dragon or the endless stamina club dudes in DkS 2.

I don't really have any problem with a double standard, just that I think it's clear there is favoritism when it comes to comparing the games. If none of it bothers you that's cool but it's all still there and the problems aren't significantly different in how they play out in the two games when it comes to combat. The

Spoiler

mind flayers in Mensis, the Cthulu monsters post phase three

also have vacuum grabs; they just aren't at the beginning of the game so it's less known.

edit: Though actually,

Spoiler

Cleric Beast

has a pretty prominent vacuum grab as well, it just doesn't use it all that often and the boss is typically considered so easy because none of its moves, including the grab, are all that damaging.

 

[Fhtagn]

I don't really have any problem with a double standard, just that I think it's clear there is favoritism when it comes to comparing the games. If none of it bothers you that's cool but it's all still there and the problems aren't significantly different in how they play out in the two games when it comes to combat. The

Spoiler

mind flayers in Mensis, the Cthulu monsters post phase three

also have vacuum grabs; they just aren't at the beginning of the game so it's less known.

If they do, I haven't been hit with one yet. They do at least grab a large distance in their animation; the hippos literally suck you in from several feet away as if by magic.

I'll re-iterate that I do actually like DkS 2; my provocative statement above was a reaction to people making equally controversial blanket statements of "fact" about it being the best game, which is very annoying to me as DkS 2 does a terrible job at a bunch of the stuff I think is the most important in the other games. All of this is IMHO, YMMV, take with grain of salt, enjoy what you like.

edit: Though actually, Cleric Beast has a pretty prominent vacuum grab as well, it just doesn't use it all that often and the boss is typically considered so easy because none of its moves, including the grab, are all that damaging.

Yes, well, the graveness of the sin of vacuum grabs is directly proportional to how much damage they do and how long the animation you have to sit through is. The hippo grab is almost always deadly to my low-armor characters even at high level, making it very frustrating when it happens.

I will acknowledge if there's one thing that annoyed me in BB it was the grab attacks, until I realized I could mash buttons during most of them to make them much shorter or break out of them entirely.

 

[la_briola]

So if you like DS2 the best, you just don't like souls games? Incredible. I prefer gameplay over everything else and it's why I personally play the games, and for me, DS2 provides the most variety in builds with the best controls, with functional online play and great covenants. I couldn't care less about taking screenshots then comparing them to a PS4 game and complaining it lacks detail, or there being 3 shortcuts that go to same place when you don't need any of them anyway. "world cohesion" means nothing to me. I don't care if an elevator takes me to a lava castle and makes no sense, if I have fun playing in that area, it doesn't matter. I had fun throughout the whole game, and one of my favorite areas in the series is No-Mans Wharf. Replayability ultimately keeps me playing, and DS2 undoubtedly provides the most, and it doesn't make me any less of a fan for that.

Well, the Soul Memory thing is at least semi-fixed via the special ring they added. At this point, all the technical faults to Dark Souls 2 now have technical solutions. From a mechanics and customization perspective, Dark Souls 2 is leagues ahead of all the other games. There are just a ton of viable, interesting options for playing the game, PvE of PvP. And most of this is due to the aggressive patching.

[...]

Great posts, thanks!

 

[Fhtagn]

So if you like DS2 the best, you just don't like souls games?

....

"world cohesion" means nothing to me. I don't care if an elevator takes me to a lava castle and makes no sense, if I have fun playing in that area, it doesn't matter.

Thanks for proving my point?

Edit: though, I was exaggerating a little, as you'll see in my clarification in later posts. But seriously, that's *exactly* what I mean. If that stuff matters to you less than it does to me, then of course you aren't going to find a lot to gripe about in Dark 2. The other games do a much, much better job of cohesion, and it's a big part of what elevates them *for me.*

 

[Cyrano]

If they do, I haven't been hit with one yet. They do at least grab a large distance in their animation; the hippos literally suck you in from several feet away as if by magic.

I'll re-iterate that I do actually like DkS 2; my provocative statement above was a reaction to people making equally controversial blanket statements of "fact" about it being the best game, which is very annoying to me as DkS 2 does a terrible job at a bunch of the stuff I think is the most important in the other games. All of this is IMHO, YMMV, take with grain of salt, enjoy what you like.

Well, I've spent some time messing around with stuff like grabs, mostly to see if they were as squirrely as I imagined they would be. In general, grab attacks in the Souls/Bloodborne games, their hitbox, the time they take, the damage they do, are all tremendously poorly done. If there is one thing I would completely remove from all of the games, it would be the grabs. In a game so focused on tight control and always letting the player have an understanding of their precise movements, taking all control away from the player is an egregiously bad design decision. And in Bloodborne, it seems like a good 60-70% of all enemies have grab attacks where you just have to watch them kill you (each game seems to have progressively more enemies with grab attacks... a trend I'm not keen on).

It's actually worse to a certain degree in Bloodborne due to how long hitstun is on so many moves in the game, not just the hitstun you do but the hitstun enemies do as well. I have died more than a few times in Bloodborne due to simply not being able to move between two distinct actions an individual enemy takes (i.e. two separate moves with windup both hit me from the same enemy due to how long the hitstun was from the first hit I took, effectively allowing me no ability to escape a move I can see and am trying to react to), effectively allowing enemies to combo you and it's entirely a result of the much longer hitstun the game has than any of the previous entries. I am certain it's by design but it's not a design decision I'm down with as it's responsible for most of my deaths and causes me to end up furiously mashing dodge so that hopefully the dodge will actually occur. But it's inconsistent and that's what frustrates me. The previous games make it very clear when you can and cannot take action; with Bloodborne, it's really hard to tell and in a game encouraging you to keep mashing until it works, not being able to tell is a problem.

 

[Silent Chief]

Jumping is not very important in those games.

The focus of Bloodborne is not multiplayer. That doesn't make it less "good", just different.

 

[ZangBa]

Thanks for proving my point?

Edit: though, I was exaggerating a little, as you'll see in my clarification in later posts. But seriously, that's *exactly* what I mean. If that stuff matters to you less than it does to me, then of course you aren't going to find a lot to gripe about in Dark 2. The other games do a much, much better job of cohesion, and it's a big part of what elevates them *for me.*

My issue is, I consider the gameplay the "Souls" experience and not the things you appreciate more, and I don't believe that because of that, I don't enjoy what makes a "Souls" game, since what I consider a "Souls" game is something different entirely.

 

[Fhtagn]

Well, I've spent some time messing around with stuff like grabs, mostly to see if they were as squirrely as I imagined they would be. In general, grab attacks in the Souls/Bloodborne games, their hitbox, the time they take, the damage they do, are all tremendously poorly done. If there is one thing I would completely remove from all of the games, it would be the grabs. In a game so focused on tight control and always letting the player have an understanding of their precise movements, taking all control away from the player is an egregiously bad design decision. And in Bloodborne, it seems like a good 60-70% of all enemies have grab attacks where you just have to watch them kill you (each game seems to have progressively more enemies with grab attacks... a trend I'm not keen on).

I am generally in agreement here, actually, but 60-70% strikes me as way too high. I can only think of

Spoiler

brainsuckers, singing ladies, certain bosses, witches, wolves...

and for most of those you can get out of the attack faster by mashing buttons quickly, making it much less frustrating; I've seen some research on this (i thought it was from illusory wall but it's not on his tumblr yet) that found that you can avoid damage entirely for some attacks and reduce it by 3/5ths for others, etc, and in my experience that's true. I have generally found, by feel, the grab attacks in Bloodborne are much more fair than in the previous games, but I could be entirely wrong; we need some video evidence and that'll be easy enough now with the PS4 share feature. I acknowledge that my gut level feelings could be entirely off the mark, btw.

 

[Fhtagn]

My issue is, I consider the gameplay the "Souls" experience and not the things you appreciate more, and I don't believe that because of that, I don't enjoy what makes a "Souls" game, since what I consider a "Souls" game is something different entirely.

My point is that 75% of the Souls games, as they currently exist, don't agree with you, and that before DS2, the coherence of the world was something fans constantly praised about the games, and with BB are intensely praising it again.

edit: sorry about the double post.

 

[Cyrano]

I am generally in agreement here, actually, but 60-70% strikes me as way too high. I can only think of

Spoiler

brainsuckers, singing ladies, certain bosses, witches, wolves...

and for most of those you can get out of the attack faster by mashing buttons quickly, making it much less frustrating; I've seen some research on this (i thought it was from illusory wall but it's not on his tumblr yet) that found that you can avoid damage entirely for some attacks and reduce it by 3/5ths for others, etc, and in my experience that's true. I have generally found, by feel, the grab attacks in Bloodborne are much more fair than in the previous games, but I could be entirely wrong; we need some video evidence and that'll be easy enough now with the PS4 share feature. I acknowledge that my gut level feelings could be entirely off the mark, btw.

Well, I can tell you right now that every enemy in

Spoiler

Hemwick aside from the dogs does have a grab. At least one of the four generic villagers has a grab (the hand scythe-wielders). Not all bosses have "grabs" necessarily but most do have abilities that bind you in place, working to the same result. Big brick-wielding enemies have a grab, all hunters have Visceral Attacks, screaming ladies in Cainhurst have a grab, the ones you mentioned also have grabs.

60-70%? I dunno for sure, obviously, but it's a really high percentage and every new encounter it was something I was expecting and worried about (as well as greatly disliked).

You may just be better at the game than I am. I don't consider myself to have extraordinary reflexes by any stretch of the imagination and as with all Souls/Bloodborne games, the grabs are highly telegraphed.

Still, as mechanics goes, Bloodborne is the "grab" game in my mind. I would say Visceral Attacks really push that point home.

 

[Touch fuzZy. get BizZay]

Only thing I like about the OP is how short its list of "good" DS2 things is.

Those aren't the good things though!

If there really are a whole 2 good things about the worst souls game, its that they allowed you to write longer, more detailed messages for other players, which is in Bloodborne, and that they allowed people who want to play specifically with friends to do so with a ring, which is also in Bloodborne using a code.

Please don't make a game with that kind of clunky movement and yucky animation again, From. Keep it Soulsy. Keep it Miyazaki.