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Why didn't FROM SOFTWARE used the "good" things from Dark Souls 2 in Bloodborne?
- Thread starter QuickSilverD
- Start date
TheSpaceBetween
Member
That was the weirdest thing ever... The Iron Keep was nowhere to be seen on the outside but then you take an elevator up to it from the Mill somehow...
The idea behind was probably that you have ventured very far into Earthen Peak and therefore can't see the Iron Keep just yet. In any case, the red skies in Iron Keep should be in sight from Harvest Valley.
Nah, who am I kidding... It doesn't make much sense.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
furthermore the linking is poor in DKs2. Its essentially split linear paths.
Imperfected
Member
Bloodborne instead incorporated a truly revolutionary idea for a Souls game: minimizing the importance of platforming in level design, rather than trying to shoehorn it in everywhere when the engine is god-awful bad at it.
Brilliant.
(You rarely even want to jump in Bloodborne, and never actually need to. They could probably map the button to some weird swipe with the touchpad at this point for all anyone cares.)
Brilliant.
(You rarely even want to jump in Bloodborne, and never actually need to. They could probably map the button to some weird swipe with the touchpad at this point for all anyone cares.)
I haven't played Bloodborne yet, but yeah, O to jump is way better than L3. It's pretty awkward to push in a stick when you're already pushing it forward. It sucks. That said, I generally like jumping in the Souls games and it's pretty well implemented. It shouldn't be mandatory for progress, but I really like making that death defying leap at the exact moment to get some cool loot. Tying it to sprinting makes it so your character can't just awkwardly jump in place like Nathan Drake or something.
I saw an interview somewhere where the devs said the game had to be radically restructured not that far from release. I guess that's why things like that are in there.
I saw an interview somewhere where the devs said the game had to be radically restructured not that far from release. I guess that's why things like that are in there.
I wouldn't doubt it, it's noticable in a few areas, theres parts of Shaded Woods where the geometery is pretty fucked (the zone itself was actually alot of fun though). Honestly been enjoying my time with DS2 Scholars so far and it's been a constant 60fps on ps44. Some zones have been shitty like Earthen Peak, but I've really enjoyed a few of the areas like Iron Keep, Shaded Woods, Drangleic Castle (this is where I just finished), Gutter. I am finding quite a bit of the bosses disappointing though, there are a few good ones here and there, but this has definitely been a bit underwhelming in the bosses compared to previous games.
I need correct you here. The PS4 version doesn't keep a constant 60fps much of the time. Even in Majula there are plenty of fps drops. The drops occur in most areas. And you should have noticed it in the Gutter as well. The Gutter was especially bad in my case. Dunno if the lit sconces make it worse, but it was probably more around the 30fps mark than 60.
But if you're playing on the PS44 that's probably why you have no fps drops.
(Sorry for the bad joke... I couldn't resist.)
Misterinenja
Member
Yeah seriously what went wrong with animations in DkS2 engine?
Character movement looks like some old PC game compared to others.
GrandHarrier
Member
The list of stuff that's better in Dks2 over BB is pretty significant. It has better multiplayer, better covenants, better new game plus, better build variety, and better armor and weapon variety. If none of that matters to you than yeah I guess I can see why you'd think BB is better.
This honestly.
Bloodborne is a much better Souls game than Dark Souls 2. There isn't much to take from a completely inferior game.
Things that Dk2 did better
1. Not sending you to the home menu when you go offline.
2. Having the option to jump with L3 or O
3. Adding some cool changes in NG+ however this one isn't a big deal because I didn't like that some things were locked away until the next NG. Bloodborne only does this with an item that the final boss wields.
Something I'm iffy about is the option to not go into NG+ right away. I sort of liked this in Dk2, but the endings in Bloodborne would prevent this and since I actually love the lore this time around then I don't mind that it pushes you right into NG+.
Fuck canceling animations.
1. Not sending you to the home menu when you go offline.
2. Having the option to jump with L3 or O
3. Adding some cool changes in NG+ however this one isn't a big deal because I didn't like that some things were locked away until the next NG. Bloodborne only does this with an item that the final boss wields.
Something I'm iffy about is the option to not go into NG+ right away. I sort of liked this in Dk2, but the endings in Bloodborne would prevent this and since I actually love the lore this time around then I don't mind that it pushes you right into NG+.
Fuck canceling animations.
GrandHarrier
Member
I choose the one with multiplayer that consistently and reliably works.
Spoilers: It's not Bloodborne.
Requiring you to spend a consumable item to maybe not get disconnected and even then forcing you to wait for X+ minutes on the off chance that it might summon someone, maybe, was terrible game design.
Based Miyazaki indeed.
Regarding the jump button, I've never missed a jump with either O or R3. So: I don't care.
Regarding animation cancels: I don't care. The animations that you could cancel in DS2 were unimportant. Being able to cancel out of damage animations, like you can in BB, are much more important.
Regarding the blood vial farming: people who farm blood vials are wasting their time and always have been. By the time you get to Old Yarnham, 5 minutes can earn you enough blood echoes to buy 20+ blood vials. That said, I only farmed once in the entire game. I ran out of blood vials and it turned out that I was bashing my head against a boss using a wrong strategy (was attacking a boss's feet when I should have attacked the other limbs and I was too stubborn to realize that my strategy was doing jack shit).
Regarding the structure of online, I find it fine though I wish killing the bell ringers wasn't permanent. The human effigy+soul memory system sucked.
Regarding the stability of online: this is truly the only thing I miss from DkS2. Fix the online, FROM. To this day, I still have not been able to play with my friends.
Regarding animation cancels: I don't care. The animations that you could cancel in DS2 were unimportant. Being able to cancel out of damage animations, like you can in BB, are much more important.
Regarding the blood vial farming: people who farm blood vials are wasting their time and always have been. By the time you get to Old Yarnham, 5 minutes can earn you enough blood echoes to buy 20+ blood vials. That said, I only farmed once in the entire game. I ran out of blood vials and it turned out that I was bashing my head against a boss using a wrong strategy (was attacking a boss's feet when I should have attacked the other limbs and I was too stubborn to realize that my strategy was doing jack shit).
Regarding the structure of online, I find it fine though I wish killing the bell ringers wasn't permanent. The human effigy+soul memory system sucked.
Regarding the stability of online: this is truly the only thing I miss from DkS2. Fix the online, FROM. To this day, I still have not been able to play with my friends.
It's not perfect but at least when you connect it's actually fun
I mean don't get me wrong I get it and your criticism is valid but who even cares if you can connect in Dark Souls II when the meta is fucking garbage
GrandHarrier
Member
I'm assuming you are talking PVP which I can't really comment on because I don't really do much of it. I've never enjoyed any of the Souls PVP. From a PVE perspective having online so simple (use summon sign, get nearly instant feedback of the success or failure of the summon and go) is just great. The Bloodborne version of this is use insight, wait 5 minutes, sometimes get disconnected, othertimes wait up to 15 to 30 minutes for a hit or until you get bored waiting and move on.
I think DS2's NG+ changes are overrated. It does some new things and that's refreshing. But to be honest, those differences are not that enjoyable or fun. If we take the Lost Sinner. They just added two more phantoms and called it a day. Same goes for that fucking annoying Flexile Sentry fight. It's not creative but it does add more difficulty. And that's probably what DS2 did the best: Adding difficulty in any way possible, without any concern for the fun factor. Dark Souls is supposed to be difficult! PREPARE TO DIE!
It's dissapointing that Bb's NG+ is a 100% carbon copy of the base game. But if FromSoft couldn't come up ideas that were more engaging than adding more NPC phantoms... Well, then I'm fine with playing the same content again with new damage/health modifiers.stat modifiers.
Snkfanatic
Banned
Hmm I don't agree at all. I had a hard time jumping in BB but after starting DS2 for the first time jumping is a lot easier in that game.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I think the Chalice dungeons were partly created for that increase in replay ability and difficulty.
The idea behind it is that they were working on various locations simultaneously and no one in the team had a clear vision of how will it all come together, at some point they just decided to connect them in what ever way.
Although Bloodborne's trick weapons are awesome, we don't have many to choose from. Along with less armors and stats to level, Bloodborne has much less replayability IMO.
I don't think that Bloodborne's online functionality is necessarily bad rather it's just not optimized at the moment. The password matchmaking is great IMO.
Yeah I did a bit of cooping the other day in scholar of the first sin and it was way, way better than Bloodborne. I couldn't actually get any progress done in my game because I'd literally get summoned every 30 seconds. It's just so much simpler and works better than any other game in the series. I don't give a shit about PvP in Souls games because of lag so I don't care about balance issues.
BB has only two stats less than DS and those two extras were Attunement and Resistance. Latter of these was really worthless stat.
Also weapons in DS were more or less just different looking. Usually there weren't that many viable weapons but here every weapon is viable.
For me personally I finished the game only trying 4 weapons (cane,cleaver,kirkhammer,
tonitris
drotahorror
Member
Pretty much agree.
BB has better enemy designs, the overall look of the environments is cooler to me, basically anything related to aesthetics, BB wins. The combat is also very nice, but still lacks variety.
I think DkS2 gets a lot of undeserved hate. Having played it for the better part of the week, again, it's a great game. It offers tons of content (I'd wager the world is 3-5x+ larger than BB) compared to most games. The combat and variety of weapons, armors is out of control and nothing compares honestly. I'd say it's harder as well than DkS1 and BB (imo). New Game + DLC is destroying my face. The 2nd DLC may be the hardest set of Souls bosses I've ever fought. I never fought them on new game, but ng+ they are ruthless.
BB's online mechanics are trash too (atleast the way they're currently working/not working, the idea is solid). GL keeping people around with bs like that. Bloodborne is a sick PVE game but the PVP feels like an afterthought. Imo there's no reason to stick around after you've beat some chalice dungeons, new game, and new game+.
Fair enough then. I never play co-op, I prefer invading.
Maybe it's mean but killing other players is a lot more exciting than helping
Jumping with L3 sounds dumb until you find the armor that gives you bigger jumps, then it becomes necessary.
Gotta agree that the switch-weapon-attack shot me in the face a couple of times.
Dunno why the online was gutted.
Are we saying this with a straight face when one of the areas in bloodborne has frenzy automatically hit into you if you are in the open, along with super fast enemies, along with worms that come out of said enemies when you kill them, along with enemies that throw rocks at you that hit you even when you dodged them, along with maidens that let people invade you?
If that's not difficulty for difficulty's sake I dunno what it is.
Granted, the online is so bad that I only got invaded once there. Woo bad implementations.
Gotta agree that the switch-weapon-attack shot me in the face a couple of times.
Dunno why the online was gutted.
Are we saying this with a straight face when one of the areas in bloodborne has frenzy automatically hit into you if you are in the open, along with super fast enemies, along with worms that come out of said enemies when you kill them, along with enemies that throw rocks at you that hit you even when you dodged them, along with maidens that let people invade you?
If that's not difficulty for difficulty's sake I dunno what it is.
Granted, the online is so bad that I only got invaded once there. Woo bad implementations.
Facism
Member
The multiplayer is better in ds2. I'd rather see soapstone names on the floor from an easily obtainable item over spending insight to ring a bell and hope:
a)there are people around in your level range
b)these people actually had 10 insight and found the messenger bath
c)actually bought the small resonant bell from said bath and figured it out
That's even if the mp is actually working at the time and you don't have to quit out the game and load it back up to connect.
Bloodborne coop/pvp is lacking in it's implementation and functionality. It's a massive step back from ds2.
This has been my problem with BB so far as well. Apparently, finding and trying out new equipment was a big piece of the longevity for the souls games for me.
Also: I prefer L3 jumping.
Wait wait wait wait... What's that armour? :O I've never heard about it.
Kenzodielocke
Banned
I think they are longer, but not higher.
Also they put a cloud of poison around you, which is funny for PvP.
Main problem is that it cuts down on rewards severely. Now you kill a boss and you only get money to show for it, maaaybe a key item. Whereas in the Souls games you'd get a boss soul item you could exchange for weapons or armor or money.
The amount of bosses that make new armor show up in the store is really small.
Trick weapons are fun and cool designed, but ultimately they don't impact that much, since they are equivalent to switching weapons in the souls games. Given that you had 3 weapon slots, you gain at most one extra weapon slot in BB. And considering some of them take away your gun, the variety really falls down.
And the Souls games allowed you to wield weapons two handed, and DS2 allowed you to dual wield some pairs of weapons, so you start seeing that the trick weapons are a huge cut down in weapon variety.
The area you refer to is difficult, I agree. But at least it doesn't happen over and over.
I was more refering to the boss fights, really. In DS2 we have so many multi-boss fights which makes little sense. Especially for the NG+. Why does Lost Sinner need two no-name pyromancers? Why does Flexile Sentry need two guard dogs?
DS2 tries so hard to be a difficult game. In many encounters lock-on is pointless because you run like a maniac waiting for all the clones to exhaust their combos to let you get in a hit or two. I'm not saying that lock-on should be mandatory for all fights, but it feels like DS2 works against its own core mechanics.
Oh I remember seeing lots of players wearing it but I didn't know it did that. That's awesome, I need to test it out sometime.
I think lost sinner getting the extra guys is super great. One of the fondest memories of DS2 I have is just sitting there in New Game + and helping people with it over and over. It was great fun, even when the host died stupidly. Eventually I figured out there were healing spells and I started healing the host on the verge of death, and that only made that fight even better.
Flexile I will give you, particularly since, for whatever reason, I couldn't get or give that much help for that fight (I think it was because it was farther from a bonfire).
My guess is that DS2 focus on multiplayer makes bosses with helpers, or multibosses more of a necesity. I hear Scholar letting you summon 4 guys kills even these battles, maybe it was too much.
Dunno about lock-on. Played a lot of BB without lock on. Game works ok. I did it too sometimes in DS2, aiming manually. It is not impossible, but obvs you will want to lock on sometimes. One of the improvements in BB is the bigger lock on distance, which was too short before. But now the game drops lockon sometimes if you pass behind a column. Sometimes. It is inconsistent. Don't really think it is a biggie in either game, but it could certainly be better.
Bingo. It's really difficult to roll while running. I'm not sure if that was by design or was an oversight. Either way, I vastly prefer L3.
Mechanized
Member
Bloodborne lacks loot.
Bloodborne lacks magic(the "magic" fucking sucks, Arcane is pointless).
Bloodborne lacks build diversity.
Bloodborne lacks estus flasks + shards.
Bloodborne lacks leveling up bonfires for more challenge/loot.
Bloodborne is extremely lacking in multiple key areas. I think it is a good game but has nowhere near the replayability of the Souls games. Short of completing the chalice dungeons I've already exhausted everything you can do. Also the chalice dungeons are ok, but you barely get anything from them. The loot that is there is spread so thin it's ridiculous. Alright I've cleared out this bonus room and lets see what I get... oh... Tomb Mold. A material needed to make another chalice dungeon. HOW REWARDING.
The combat is way better than Souls though, even if it can be ruined by the shitty camera in some boss fights. It is a really good game, but it is flawed and I think ignoring those flaws is ridiculous.
Bloodborne lacks magic(the "magic" fucking sucks, Arcane is pointless).
Bloodborne lacks build diversity.
Bloodborne lacks estus flasks + shards.
Bloodborne lacks leveling up bonfires for more challenge/loot.
Bloodborne is extremely lacking in multiple key areas. I think it is a good game but has nowhere near the replayability of the Souls games. Short of completing the chalice dungeons I've already exhausted everything you can do. Also the chalice dungeons are ok, but you barely get anything from them. The loot that is there is spread so thin it's ridiculous. Alright I've cleared out this bonus room and lets see what I get... oh... Tomb Mold. A material needed to make another chalice dungeon. HOW REWARDING.
The combat is way better than Souls though, even if it can be ruined by the shitty camera in some boss fights. It is a really good game, but it is flawed and I think ignoring those flaws is ridiculous.
I am even more puzzled as to why Bloodborne didn't copy the good things from Dark Souls. I mean, you could excuse not copying DS2 since it may have been different people, and by the time DS2 was done, BB was halfways done.
But that excuse doesn't work with DS1.
-The return to having to farm healing items, instead of the rechargeable estus of Dark Souls.
-Doing away with the central hub, in favor of resting in each bonfire.
-No early teleportation.
The farming of items is just a way to inconvenience the player, it is not hard to farm a couple of times to get a ton of vials, but DS1 did it so much better, even forcing the player to acquire human form to increase the amount of estus on each area.
And the nexus is just lame compared to the sense of real isolation in Dark 1. That first time you go down to Blighttown, you are really on your own. If you broke your weapons down there and brought no repair box, that's it, since you didn't have the Lordvessel either.
All in favor of what? A lot of loading times for no good reason, just to go level up to the respective game's waifu? Honestly I wish they had done away with the hub area in both DS2 and BB. And even then, if the hub is really a necessity (it is not) at least try to copy Demon, giving the hub a more populated feel, like in Demon. Instead you send people to another location, which means more load times to check on each, etc, etc.
No early teleportation and no hub world gave Dark Souls a lot of the unique feel over Demon and the rest of the games have just disregarded it.
But that excuse doesn't work with DS1.
-The return to having to farm healing items, instead of the rechargeable estus of Dark Souls.
-Doing away with the central hub, in favor of resting in each bonfire.
-No early teleportation.
The farming of items is just a way to inconvenience the player, it is not hard to farm a couple of times to get a ton of vials, but DS1 did it so much better, even forcing the player to acquire human form to increase the amount of estus on each area.
And the nexus is just lame compared to the sense of real isolation in Dark 1. That first time you go down to Blighttown, you are really on your own. If you broke your weapons down there and brought no repair box, that's it, since you didn't have the Lordvessel either.
All in favor of what? A lot of loading times for no good reason, just to go level up to the respective game's waifu? Honestly I wish they had done away with the hub area in both DS2 and BB. And even then, if the hub is really a necessity (it is not) at least try to copy Demon, giving the hub a more populated feel, like in Demon. Instead you send people to another location, which means more load times to check on each, etc, etc.
No early teleportation and no hub world gave Dark Souls a lot of the unique feel over Demon and the rest of the games have just disregarded it.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
They each did things well and not so well. DS II had a FAR better sense of progression and pacing, and actually felt like it was building up to something, unlike Bloodborne.
The complaint about the Dark Souls 2 Havel mages of 99 doom is one I'd echo, but personally believe SotS remedies it for me. They still exist, but the Agape Ring has got me salivating with potential builds.
It is an awkward method to get around soul memory, but I'm already figuring out optimal routes, equipment and levels to gain on PvP designed characters, whilst using the ring to keep the souls down.
Get to the ring as fast as possible, use consumable soul items/farm specific mobs to get to the number I require and then never take the ring off. Should be able to make characters around builds like the good old DS1 days.
It is an awkward method to get around soul memory, but I'm already figuring out optimal routes, equipment and levels to gain on PvP designed characters, whilst using the ring to keep the souls down.
Get to the ring as fast as possible, use consumable soul items/farm specific mobs to get to the number I require and then never take the ring off. Should be able to make characters around builds like the good old DS1 days.
eot
Banned
What? Pretty much any weapon in Dark Souls is viable, that's what's so great. Yes, a lot of weapons mostly had subtle differences but if you were to add up all the weapons I'm pretty sure Dark Souls has more variation overall. Remember you had all the boss and tail weapons with unique attacks, Black Knight weapons etc.
As for the stats, sure they're they're only two fewer, but they mean much less now because the other RPG systems have been removed. There are less things that are affected by your stats so there's not very much to take into consideration when you're leveling up.
fixed for you
They male a GOTY edition but do some extra works for removing soul memory was too hard for them.
Nope, b team talk started before Bloodborne was announced. Just did a cursory search and what I see is it was coined by a Sony employee here on neogaf back in January 2014 for the team working Bloodborne as some sort of marketing tease.
Edit: Adding link: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=97208657&postcount=71
Dark Souls has more options in pretty much all ranges of combat. You can be a bow, cross bow, or magic user for far range. Close range has options for enchants, magic, parry/riposte, shields, etc. weight affected rolling animations and invincibility frames.
Bloodborne's combat is fun but there aren't as many options or builds available.
superseohyun
Member
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