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Why do 2D Mario games have such terrible bosses?
- Thread starter Toxi
- Start date
Yeah, it's a shame, there are some nice designs in there. I'd like to see Birdo brought into the series properly. Or maybe do a 3d game in that universe and give Bowser et al a rest.
Leave the frightening two-face moon thing where it is though. It's best left the fuel of distant nightmares.
NSMB on DS was the last time 2D Mario had good bosses. Screw those Koopalings. Koopalings, Kamek and Bowser are like the only bosses we've gotten in 2D Mario since then. They've overstayed their welcome so hard and to make things worse they started bleeding into 3D Mario as well. Blargh.
Simbabbad
Member
It'd still be annoying. NSMB towers and castles are sometimes pretty hard when you try to get all coins, and having to redo the battle each time would be very annoying if they were too hard or too long.
Frankly, I think they're perfect as they already are in this structure, they put a little bit of suspense but aren't really relevant. To have more difficult battles, they'd have to make full dedicated boss levels, and I'd be fine with that. Then again, that's what the towers/castles and flying fortresses are, in a way.
(Except Reznors, they've always been bad and are flat out terrible in NSMB2.)
The Rare trilogy has terrible bosses, and the Retro bosses have dedicated levels. Retro's bosses are also IMO way too long and frustrating, I'd take Koopalings over them any day, I feel they're out of topic even though they are indeed clever. Like some other poster said, SM3DL is the perfect solution since they fused the castle and the boss. NSMBW's final battle was also excellent because it was more about the level than the boss.
This, too, even though I think they work fine in their context for the same reason as NSMB bosses.
woopWOOP
Member
Yeah, Mario bosses are generally easy and over within seconds. For me nowadays.
When I was young those Koopalings gave me loads of trouble. I couldn't figure out how to avoid getting paralyzed by the quakes of the heavy Koopalings' jumps and the weird angles of Wendy's rings/Lemmy's balls got me so many times. Morton in SMW with his compressing room also had me panicking which got me to make a lot of mistakes. If you're stuck with small Mario it can be pretty difficult to get through the battles without getting hit once.
Sure I sucked pretty bad back then, but I guess for beginners to the platformer genre the bosses are just right.
When I was young those Koopalings gave me loads of trouble. I couldn't figure out how to avoid getting paralyzed by the quakes of the heavy Koopalings' jumps and the weird angles of Wendy's rings/Lemmy's balls got me so many times. Morton in SMW with his compressing room also had me panicking which got me to make a lot of mistakes. If you're stuck with small Mario it can be pretty difficult to get through the battles without getting hit once.
Sure I sucked pretty bad back then, but I guess for beginners to the platformer genre the bosses are just right.
Gotdatmoney
Member
The Super Mario World Bosses I personally think are a lot of fun. Simple but its just a fun challenge. You mentioned Yoshi's Island which was great.
DarkConfidant
Member
This. The games are about platforming. They're not megaman.
I'm sure if they focused too much on boses they'd have to add new mechanics. I think they try to keep them simple.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
You do this? All I remember doing is waiting for him to jump, run under his feet and hit the axe. Most of the 3d bosses are pretty boring and easy too.
DKC2 has some good bosses though and I was so damn surprised about it. I'm taking notes on that shit. If you want to know how to design some bosses in a platformer, take a look at Donkey Kong Country 2.
timetokill
Banned
A boss is meant to be an exclamation point in a 2D Mario game, not a standalone item. It's just a unique, final obstacle in a level. It's not meant to be a big complicated affair.
Exactly. Which is why I loved NSMB Wii Bowser battle.
I think boss fights aren't necessary for a lot of games, and they should be replaced by more appropriate milestones.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
Yeah, I don't get it either.
I feel like boss fights are severely overrated in general. Not every game is a fit for them, especially when we're talking about Mario. For a lot of games, boss fights maybe make 5% of an entire game. Everything else is legit level and encounter design.
Hell no I don't do that. Don't insult me! lol
The run under is the "same basic strategy" I was talking about. I'm just saying that even if you can't do that, being able to absorb a hit guarantees anyone victory for every boss in the game.
...Because there's bosses in the Mario games? It's not like I'm asking for Mario to have bosses, I'm asking why the bosses in Mario games suck.
If having decent bosses isn't a priority for Mario games, why even have bosses in the first place? Just end the level strong and don't waste people's time with a crappy boss.
In 2D Mario, they're less of an exclamation point and more of an ellipsis.
I think the reason may be that in Mario games you can only take 2 hits before dying, so creating more complex bosses could cause frustration in the player or become a difficulty spike (I think DK gives you 4hp + refills midfight). Also, Megaman, Shovel Knight or Yoshi's Island give you ranged attacks, while in Mario you usually have to get close and personal. So that few hitpoints + the need to get close to the boss limits what Nintendo can do.
Anyway this is the weakest point in 2D Mario games IMO and I hope Nintendo would do something about it.
Anyway this is the weakest point in 2D Mario games IMO and I hope Nintendo would do something about it.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Well, think about it for a second. Bosses in Japanese action games like this are there to test your knowledge of the game mechanics. This opens up a lot of possibilities when your character has several different direct attack functions you can screw around with, like all of Mega Man's many core and component powers, or Shovel Knight's Ducktales' pogo stick, or Contra's weapons and high mobility. Yoshi's Island has a lot of creative boss fights because Yoshi's moveset is so diverse with the butt stomps, flutter jumps, and angled egg throwing.
What does Mario have? Running and jumping. That's it. He cant even directly jump INTO something so he's even more limited than Sonic. He rarely has anything to throw back at people like Donkey Kong Country often does, or vines he can climb around, or ground he can pound like Retro's DK. Running around and jumping on/over things is the extent of what Nintendo can do with 2D Mario, because they can't assume you've come to the battle with a fire flower or a hammer bros suit cuz those are temporary. So all they can do are these lame 10 second things where you jump over a thing or on top of a thing. And you have like two hits at most before a death, so you gotta factor in that limitation, too.
What does Mario have? Running and jumping. That's it. He cant even directly jump INTO something so he's even more limited than Sonic. He rarely has anything to throw back at people like Donkey Kong Country often does, or vines he can climb around, or ground he can pound like Retro's DK. Running around and jumping on/over things is the extent of what Nintendo can do with 2D Mario, because they can't assume you've come to the battle with a fire flower or a hammer bros suit cuz those are temporary. So all they can do are these lame 10 second things where you jump over a thing or on top of a thing. And you have like two hits at most before a death, so you gotta factor in that limitation, too.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
think of it like this, most NES games have Attack and Jump for their two buttons. Mario only has Run and Jump. The game's inherent simplicity is a big part of its appeal as a platformer, but the lack of a direct attack outside jumping on top of things puts a big limitation on what the boss fights can actually be.
Thugly is a boss in DKCR where all you can do is run and jump. However his dynamic attack patterns, increasing difficulty and new moves as the fight goes on makes him more interesting than almost all bosses in the history of 2D Mario.
I get the arguments about how bosses aren't a major highlight in 2D Mario, but that's no excuse for the shitty bosses in NSMBwii onwards. They just waste your time with that monotonous shell spinning attack. You can have a fun boss that's quick and simple without it being shit. Like for example the Bowser Jr fights and most of NSMBDS's fights. Just to use this series as an example.
Honestly I think boss encounters are a great way to cap off a world in a game and I wouldn't want them cut entirely.
Honestly I think boss encounters are a great way to cap off a world in a game and I wouldn't want them cut entirely.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Yeah, simplicity isn't really isn't an excuse. That just shows you're not that creative. If the Super Mario Maker community is anything like the LittleBigPlanet one, there are probably levels out there with bosses that are better than the ones we get in the mainline games.
Conkerkid11
Member
Because 2D Mario games are terrible.
Nocturnowl
Member
Maybe the hop 'n bop style a platformer just doesn't do extended boss encounters well by design? Mario has power ups but you can't really use them reliably for boss battles (unless they work on the timer style of Galaxy 1/2)
Even games like Tropical Freeze or Rayman Legends where the bosses are treated with as much care as the stages people still find them polarizing.
Best bosses in recent mario games were the ones that were basically stages with a boss hazard (Bowser in NSMB Wii, 3D Land/World)
Even games like Tropical Freeze or Rayman Legends where the bosses are treated with as much care as the stages people still find them polarizing.
Best bosses in recent mario games were the ones that were basically stages with a boss hazard (Bowser in NSMB Wii, 3D Land/World)
I just started playing Super Mario World on 3DS and was thinking about this too. Even when I was a little kid, I remember being really disappointed by the bossesespecially the Koopa kids. They look like sprites ripped out of an NES game to me. Their animation is also oddly stilted making them look pretty crude even when compared to other parts of the same game. Roy comes to mind as he mechanically shuffles around the walls of the room. Adding mode 7 to these guys didn't do them any favors either.
This comment is terrible.
This comment is terrible.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
They're fantastic in SMB2USA and fair in SMB3 and SMW. Then fantastic again in SMW2:YI.
Then yea, the nsmb series really diluted them to the point of feeling unoriginal.
I honestly felt like SM3DW, despite being a great game, ha some poor boss battles as well which was a first for a 3D Mario. Hopefully, Nintendo could turn it around with the next installment.
Then yea, the nsmb series really diluted them to the point of feeling unoriginal.
I honestly felt like SM3DW, despite being a great game, ha some poor boss battles as well which was a first for a 3D Mario. Hopefully, Nintendo could turn it around with the next installment.
Sapiens
Member
Technically, it's Super Mario 5 (as it was labelled SMW2, and SMW was labelled SM4.)
Actually he's gotten all of those things over the years but the bosses haven't kept up. Mario can throw koopa shells, ground pound, spin jump, climb on fences, and so on. The 3D games make use of these things but for some reason the 2D games don't outside of a one or two.
pretty much. not really the sort of games designed around having omg badass boss encounters
Sonic only has Jump, and has quite a few decent boss battles. Considering the genre allows basically anything within a stage to count towards the boss battle, this is a pretty bad excuse.
Lucky Seven
Banned
Super Mario Sunshine had some... decent bosses. Pretty sure nobody agrees. Mario bosses are pretty lame, bowser isn't interesting no matter how big he gets. Except when you put him in a floating clown car, for some reason.
Nocturnowl
Member
Sunshine's bosses include the likes of...
- The goopy piranhas you fight about 6 times in exactly the same unchallenging way
- Petey Piranha X2 who can't actually damage you unless you stand in his goop
- Three rounds of the Blooper squid which repeats itself in each fight to begin with, though pulling off those tentacles is at least fun the first few times
- An awkward teeth brushing exercise with an eel
- Bowser in a hot goop tub
- One that relies on a slot machine giving you the item you need to make any headway
- Arguably Shadow Mario who can be hosed down in mere seconds most times
I guess the rollercoaster robot and manta storm were okayish?
- The goopy piranhas you fight about 6 times in exactly the same unchallenging way
- Petey Piranha X2 who can't actually damage you unless you stand in his goop
- Three rounds of the Blooper squid which repeats itself in each fight to begin with, though pulling off those tentacles is at least fun the first few times
- An awkward teeth brushing exercise with an eel
- Bowser in a hot goop tub
- One that relies on a slot machine giving you the item you need to make any headway
- Arguably Shadow Mario who can be hosed down in mere seconds most times
I guess the rollercoaster robot and manta storm were okayish?
So, enemies you jump on they go into an invincibility state for a bit repeat two more times? The Monty Mole boss is bit of a mix up on that by having to either throw a Bob-omb at him or climb up the tank turrets to get in jumping distance.
Other then that one example only thing that makes people praise the NSMB boss fights over what came after is nothing to do with gameplay and just visuals.
NSMBU in particular has at least as many gameplay ideas for boss fights as NSMB maybe more, with Morton hitting Pokey parts at you, Iggy running on the ceiling and making Magmaarghs and Ludwig making clones of himself.
I get preferring long harder boss that are the final challenge of a world in and of themselves rather then Mario's tradition of using them as just a final obstacle in a level and having the over all level itself be the final challenge for a world, but to try and go pretend that this is something the NSMB series started or made worse, is just factually wrong.
SMB3 in particular stands out for having very little different in what the Koopalings do outside of Wendy's rings and Lemmy's ball and in World Ludwig is the only one with a completely unique boss fight.
Leafhopper
Banned
Because Mario games at it's core aren't about Boss battles. Yoshi's Island did it well because they had a mechanic based around combat more than even Mario's powerups before. I know you omitted it in your OP but, I thought I would just chime in.
Boss battles imo didn't really mean a damn until 64. (As in main mario games.)
Well Super Mario Bros 2 USA did it better but, that also at it's base isn't a normal Mario game either.
Boss battles imo didn't really mean a damn until 64. (As in main mario games.)
Well Super Mario Bros 2 USA did it better but, that also at it's base isn't a normal Mario game either.
ViewtifulJC
Banned
Sonic's jump is quite a bit more offensive than Mario's. He can jump on top like Mario, but he can also attack from below, the side, he can spindash up the walls of Casino Night zone, jump off the wall using his accelerated momentum to nail Robotnik at a weird angle, you can jump into Silver Sonic's frame, you can jump in between Robotnik's hands and his protected head if you time it right. His core abilities are more directly combat focused then Mario.
Although it certainly doesn't help that Nintendo never forces you to use any of the mechanics they added over time anyway. The spin jump in Super Mario World is one of the most hilariously underutilized mechanics in video game history.
Presumably they're most concerned about bosses being accessible to people who never played games before, so it hampers a lot of creative flair for them.
I don't necessarily agree over the principle that Mario isn't about bosses either. They're there to switch things up, and if they're going to bother putting them in, they may as well go the whole mile.
I don't necessarily agree over the principle that Mario isn't about bosses either. They're there to switch things up, and if they're going to bother putting them in, they may as well go the whole mile.
MrSaturn99
Member
I thought the ones in NSMBWii/U were pretty cool, but yeah, they've never been 2D Mario's strongest asset.
Or honestly, Mario in general. In regards to the 3D titles, outside of the Galaxy games I don't think they've been that great either outside of certain stand-outs (3D Land's Final Bowser and Motley Bossblob come to mind).
Or honestly, Mario in general. In regards to the 3D titles, outside of the Galaxy games I don't think they've been that great either outside of certain stand-outs (3D Land's Final Bowser and Motley Bossblob come to mind).
Yeah this, plus Sonic can take many hits as long as you keep on recovering rings, so the bosses allow for some experimentation as mistakes are less punishing. Back to offensive abilities, Mario´s offensive moveset is greatly nerfed against bosses: fireballs deal little damage, Yoshi´s tongue attack doesn´t even work...So if you already have a limited number of offensive actions and then you even reduce their efectiveness you´re left with not many things to work with.
Jon Carter
Member
I don't like boss fights in general, they break up the flow of the game, like forced shooter or stealth sections in platformers, so I'm at least thankful that they're super easy. I just want regular platformer levels.
Ah, but now you're talking possible applications of an action, rather than the number of actions as your were before. As an example, you compared with other NES games where the characters would have Jump and Shoot... but in many (most?) of these cases, such as Megaman the character can't jump on an enemy like Mario can, so it's not as simple as your original argument portrayed.
I will concede that I didn't really consider the spindash, which is definitely another action of its own... however, the example you gave of its use highlights what I'm talking about. In the Casino Night Zone boss fight, Robotnik could have simply moved across the screen from left to right as Sonic ran across a flat plane waiting for him to lower during his attack before hitting him. This is what many Mario boss fights feel like. However in this case they've made the level itself integral to the boss fight by placing Robotnik out of Sonic's natural reach and make either the slopes of the pinball flippers his means of reaching Robotnik. Despite Mario's limited moveset, designs like this are entirely possible, as are many other types of fights seen in Sonic such as...
- Spring Yard's shrinking floor space
- Labyrinth Zone's vertical chase
- Star Light Zone's see-saw bomb returning
- Mushroom Hill's infinite runner style
- Lave Reef's self damaging battle of attrition
.. amongst others. Sonic been able to attack the enemy from more angles isn't the reason the boss battles are better. They're better because some imagination was actually used in their design. Many of them make use of the core platforming mechanics in order to create the challenge.. and for a platform game, that would seem like a no-brainer, rather than simply throwing the player and an enemy into the gaming equivalent of a UFC cage. Hell, the original Donkey Kong game pretty much serves as an example of how a Mario boss fight could look. Like I said, it's really not an excuse.
Again though, this is just a case of failing to think outside the box when designing the challenges. Mario also has means to survive hits, and ways of replenishing this can easily be worked into a boss fight. This would also allow boss fights to make use of the various powerups unique strengths too, as the first challenge in beating a boss could for example be a means of acquiring a fire flower to shoot at an otherwise unreachable target. If Mario bosses are designed to discourage any means of combat beyond jumping on the bosses head three times, then that's simply a fault of their design. Nothing about the types of games Mario games are, of the actions available to Mario are necessitating the type of bosses the games have.
Incendiary
Banned
I agree with the OP that 2D Mario bosses could use an overhaul. I mean, I love the Koopalings, but with the variety of personalities behind all of them, you would think they could come up with more interesting themes to their boss fights.
Hyperactivity
Banned
they need to make every boss more like NSMBWii's bowser, AKA actual platforming
ienjoyrawfish
Member
Please tell us why.
Magic Mushroom
Member
Nah, the 3D versions are fun as they offer lots of gameplay variety, 2D is just way more samey and limited.