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Why do 2D Mario games have such terrible bosses?
- Thread starter Toxi
- Start date
I feel ashamed to share an avatar (kind of) with someone so wrong.
Simbabbad
Member
Completely different games, though:
1) Kirby can fly and slide attack and has TONS of distinct offensive powerups and movesets, it's nearly a beat'em up/smash bros. game.
2) Kirby bosses are in dedicated levels.
3) Kirby is the reverse of Mario: good bosses, but mundane/very easy levels. To me Kirby boss rush mode is 50% of the appeal of Kirby. Completely different balance.
Really, this post nails it:
It's always been like this, including on NES.
A Link to the Past
Banned
If the New series' bosses were executed in Mario 3 and Mario World, that would be one thing. The main issue is that when you look at the difference in quality, it is not uncommon to find that the New series' bosses simply are less interesting than World's especially. Like, you take Iggy Koopa's boss battle - a tilting triangular platform in lava - where you need to hit him enough times to knock him into the lava. Morton? He climbs up the walls and tries to stomp on you. Lemmy? He comes out of pipes, along with doubles meant to fool you. Ludwig? He's all right
Now, you could probably make a similar case for the bosses in the New series, but that's the problem. When you compare 3D Mario, it becomes absolutely shameful. Big Bob-omb had you throw him three times while avoiding him throwing you off the edge (which to be fair was a novel first attempt). You compare that to the bosses in ANY 3D Mario game after that - Sunshine, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, 3D World (I forget if 3D Land even had non-Bowser bosses!), and you see a huge disparity between the two that you do not see occurring in the 2D series of games. I just wish that we saw the creativity and growth that occurred with 3D Mario happen in the 2D games.
SonicMegaDrive
Member
I think Mario bosses are designed to be able to be dispatched quickly as to not halt the pace of the game. Yoshi's Island had very long, more elaborate boss fights but it's a much slower, more deliberately-paced game than the standard Mario titles.
Simbabbad
Member
I'm not seeing that at all. SMW bosses are quick and easy with basic patterns/ideas, and on top of that, they feel imprecise.
Then don't?
The games are completely different, why compare them? In 3D Mario, bosses are (again) in dedicated levels - except when it's Boom Boom or Pom Pom, and then they're WORSE in the sense they're easier and more predictable than in 2D Mario. In 3D Mario, you generally have a full health bar, or powerups are thrown at you during the battle, versus in 2D Mario where you can at most take two hits and then Game Over and there goes your progress in the tower/castle. 3D Mario battles are huge set pieces, 2D Mario battles must take place in a single screen. 3D Mario stands on elaborate gimmicks, the whole purpose of 2D Mario is to have "back to basics" action with limited powerups and interaction.
That sort of comparison is entitlement at its worst, instead of trying to understand why the battles are different, you complain. Nintendo handles them differently because they happen in totally different settings and serve totally different purposes, they're not just "bad" because of some mysterious laziness that'd happen in some games and not others.
dampflokfreund
Banned
Not only 2D Mario. The trend of NSMBfying continues with 3D World, Paper Mario and Mario&Luigi. Its sad, really.
SMW's last Bowser fight is weird. He's very easy to beat and requires a gameplay mechanic that players might never use until that point. It felt like he belonged in Super Mario Bros. 2, a game about picking up and throwing things.Don't talk shit about
Mr Waluigi
Banned
For 2D platformers, New Super Mario Bros., Super Mario Land 2 and Donkey Kong (GB) had good boss fights.
Simbabbad
Member
Explain how SMB, SMB3 or SMW bosses are different or better than NSMB bosses.
JimboJones
Member
Honestly I don't really mind, they could be a little bit more creative but I don't want something like the new Donkey Kong Country games bosses which seem to go on forever.
I quite liked some bosses in 3D World. The snake and the big jester were cool and while the final Bowser fight was way too slow and easy, the idea behind it was great
I don't think anyone's really saying they're better. But those games are all over 25 years old.
mickagau33
Member
It's not only 2D Mario : 3D land had like 2 types of bosses in the whole game (Koopalings girl and boy and Bowser). Also I like the koopalings but they feel recycled since Mario 3.
Were the 3D Land bosses Koopalings? I didn't recognize them. I agree they were pretty weak. Most Bowser fights as well. Though 8-Castle was great I thought. One of the best 3D Mario Bowser encounters. Maybe the best. Just wish it was longer.
Except
A) we can point to a bunch of games as old as SMB3 and SMW with far more in depth bosses so time isn't really an excuses, and suggest that the "SonicMegaDrive's "designed to be able to be dispatched quickly as to not halt the pace of the game" theory has a lot of credence.
B) They have been making the boss fights more distinct in the NSMB series. I can make a list of the gameplay ideas involved in each of the non-Yoshi Island boss fights if that's what it takes.
C) Also yes some people have in fact said the SMB3 and SMW world fights were "better" for whatever better is supposed to mean here. It seems to mean you have to take awhile to beat them since games with slower paced boss fights tend to be held up as good boss fights.
Yea... I guess Sunshine's bosses weren't too hot.
At least Galaxy 1 and 2's bosses were better.
They were at least new at the time?
pretty done
Member
I can't remember a 2D platformer with good bosses unless you count Mega Man and action games like that as platformers.
If were' looking at what the Koopalings are doing, because if it's just "fighting Koopalings isn't new, then SMW wasn't new at the time, then the Koopalings are doing new things in each NSMB game they've been in.
Lord British
Member
I actually really like Mario bosses, because they tend to be breezy and fun to defeat quickly - much like the stages.
Because all NSMBs are simply incredibly lazy boring affairs. There was a nice evolution going from SMB2 to SMB3 to World doing kind of the same thing as 3 and then of course the great Yoshi Island. The 3D Mario's went even further turning them into battles. Then New Super Mario came along and.. well.. Wii U never stood a chance.
Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic 3 and Knuckles.
Donkey Kong Country 2, Returns, and Tropical Freeze.
Shovel Knight and Yoshi's Island are kinda creeping into action game territory, but those games have very good bosses too.
BodiesWithoutOrgans
Member
SMB2 villains need to return
Think for Sonic games most can't tell whether the bosses are good because the game mechanics themselves are so mediocre already. What can you do with a great boss when the game character controls like shit?
For the DKC series, I also don't think the bosses were particularly great, especially because the collision detection was so imprecise.
But I agree with OP on NSMB. I think the boss fights in Super Mario World were fine (apart from the final boss) as they were new. But with the NSMB series, the bosses are just feeling too similar. Some boss levels were also hurt by motion controls iirc.
LOL wut
pretty done
Member
Can't agree with any DKC games, the bosses there are just as bad as in any Mario game. All 2D platformers would be better off with a tough last level of a world rather than jumping on some lame big bad's head 3 times.
Lame boss fights is yet another reason why 2D platformers are vastly inferior to 3D platformers. And yet all that ever gets made is 2D!
When did the original Sonic games start getting praised for any boss outside of the final ones? I always seen "Boss are too simple, just Eggman/Robotnic each time, over super fast, too easy " brought up as like the one criticism even big Sonic fans level at the original games.
too much "waiting for the game to give you an item to throw" for my tastes.
No, SMW wasn't new at the time. What's your point though? New mechanics for the same "hit the koopaling 3 times" was fine in one sequel (a.k.a SMW). Doing so for another few games thereafter makes it feel that much less exciting each time.
Sonic 1, 2, 3 and K all had cool boss fights. Yes it was often Dr. Robotnik each time... but he was usually in very cool gear/ships with level-layouts that made each fight feel mechanically distinct. These are all mid-game boss fights. If you're familiar with them, you'd know that the patterns are all very different.
As pointed out earlier in the thread, they still incorporated much more variety in level design and attack strategy than their Mario counterparts. I certainly enjoy them a hell of a lot more than Mario bosses.
The catchy music also helps.
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Somebody just as a Mario developer the next chance they get. I already know that there are journalists and all kind of game professionals on here.
Yeah I´m not defending the poor bosses in 2D Mario games, just trying to understand why they´re so simple while Nintendo has demonstrated it can make good platform-boss fights in other games. I´m sure that by introducing other elements in boss fights something neat could be achieved, but I´m also certain that they could never reach something as cool as the boss fights in Mega Man or Shovel Knight (besides, those type of fights would certainly be a big difficulty spike in a Mario game). But anyway, I agree with you. For example, Mario has the abbility to grab things and carry them to throw them when you want, yet that rarely gets used in boss fights, which is something I don´t understand. That alone could open so many possibilites...
That doesn't really fly when there are distinct bosses at the ends of Mario levels.
Though I do agree "running away from huge boss" levels like the final Bowser boss of NSMB Wii are fun.
The idea is they are one final obstacle (notably one you can't just fly over) rather then the final center piece of the world. If you perfer the center piece version of boss battles that's fine, but the bosses in 2d Mario work perfectly for what they are trying to do.
Though after NMSBW, NSMB2 and 3d Land did the chase boss people started complaining about it being over done.
As for not using different platforming elements, let's look at the boss fights from the first four worlds of NSMBW:
Larry:
1- Tower: introduces basic:, firing projectiles, jumping, shell spin
1-Castle: Add rising and falling floor.
Roy:
2-Tower: Basics, sets up stunning ground pound
2-Castle: adds pipes from ceiling of varying heights Roy goes in and out of.
Lemmy:
3-Tower: Basics, sets up bouncing balls Lemmy rolling back and forth and ice floor.
3-Castle: Need to use jump on balls to reach Lemmy or avoid his rolling.
Wendy
4-Tower: Basics, introduces Wendy's rings
4-Castle: Adds rising and lowing water.
Regginator
Member
Okay, let's look at SMW's bosses and NSMB's bosses.
SMW:
Iggy: really cool sumo match.
Morton: not really that good. He climbs walls and tries to stomp you. Jump on him 3 times.
Lemmy: an inventive battle. Stomp the real Lemmy 3 times.
Ludwig: he stands on a bridge and shoots fire at you. Stomp him 3 times.
Roy: oh hey, it's Morton again...
Wendy: AKA Lemmy 2: Electric Podoboo.
Larry: Iggy again.
Big Boo: this is cool. The floor is made of ice blocks and you have to throw them at Big Boo when he's vulnerable. 3 hits.
Bowser: an instant classic. Bowser attacks you with giant cannonballs from his clown car. You have to toss 3 mechakoopas at him to end the fight and Bowser changes attack phases after each hit.
There's also Reznor. You fight Reznor 4 times and it's the same each time.
SMW has a couple of interesting boss ideas, but they couldn't come up with a full set of ideas and ended up repeating them.
Now let's look at NSMB:
Bowser: straight up classic Bowser fight starts out the first 2D Mario game in over a decade. The fight isn't remarkable, but Bowser's death in this one is pretty damn gruesome for a Mario game: His flesh melts off...
Mummipokey: Mummipokey rises from the sand to various heights and tries to slam Mario with his head. 3 hits, but sometimes he can be too tall to jump on and requires wall jumps.
Cheepskipper: It occasionally jumps out of the water and skips along the bridge to attack Mario. Jump on it 3 times.
Mega Goomba: a random goomba grows giant for no reason. You have to ground pound it 3 times. To get above it you have to wall jump or activate the switch in the middle of the room to create timed platforms.
Petey Piranha: Nintendo sure loved this guy, didn't they? He flies around the room and tries to dive bomb you. After he crashes you can jump on him. He changes patterns. 3 hits.
Monty Tank: Probably the best boss in the game. This 3 tier tank shoots bullet bills and bob-ombs at you as it rolls around. Each Time you hit him the tank grows another level, giving it more attacks and making it harder to reach to monty mole you need to hit 3 times.
Lakithunder: flies around the top of the screen raining lightning down. Jump on him when he swoops down 3 times.
Dry Bowser: despite having his flesh melted off he puts up a good fight in his gaming debut. It's essentially a standard Bowser fight, but Dry Bowser is immune to fireballs.
Bowser and Bowser Jr: Bowser Jr. tosses his dad's corpse into a vat and he is reborn bigger and badder. Father and son fight you at the same time. Junior can be taken out by jumping on him, but Bowser requires fireballs or going under him to hit the switch.
Bowser Junior also acts as the miniboss of NSMB. You fight him in every tower. Each fight he gradually improves his fighting style. Sometimes you can just jump on him. Sometimes he will dive into his shell and hurt you if you try to jump on him and you have to hit him with the shells he throws at you.
Overall NSMB had some pretty cool and inventive bosses. The Bowser fights were a bit of a let down, but at least they kept changing things up.
NSMBWii:
NSMBWii is a bit different from other Mario games. Instead of having separate minibosses like Boom Boom, Reznor, or Bowser Jr. NSMBWii's towers feature a showdown with the world's Koopaling. The boss fights are suped up encounters thanks to Kamek.
Larry 1: A standard SMB3 Larry fight with pits on each side.
Larry 2: Kamek makes the floor platforms rise and fall.
Roy 1: Like Larry 1 except Roy can ground pound and stun Mario.
Roy 2: Kamek makes giant pipes appear in the ceiling that Roy can hide in. He will drop out of the pipes and cause a shockwave.
Lemmy 1: Lemmy returns to riding his bouncy ball from SMB3 and tries to knock you into a pit. The floor is ice.
Lemmy 2: Kamek makes Lemmy's ball huge, requiring you to bounce off the smaller balls to reach him.
Wendy 1: standard SMB3 Wendy fight. She leaps around shooting rings of energy that ricochet off walls.
Wendy 2: Kakek causes the boss room to periodically flood with water, making it impossible for Mario to jump on Wendy until the water goes away.
Iggy 1: Iggy leaps around a room with 3 moving platforms shooting magic at Mario.
Iggy 2: Kamek gives Iggy a chariot pulled by a giant chain chomp that chases Mario around the room in a loop.
Morton 1: Morton shoots magic and ground pounds you on a platform surrounded by skewers and lava.
Morton 2: When Morton pounds the floor the pillars on either side of him will rise up to the ceiling, instantly KOing Mario if he gets crushed by them.
Ludwig 1: Ludwing casts homing fireballs at Mario and flutter jumps around the room.
Ludwig 2: you fight on 3 elevators as they constantly speed up an infinitely tall tower.
You fight Bowser Jr. in the game's 3 airships.
Bowser Jr. 1: Say hello to the Junior Clown Car! Bowser Jr. sticks to the top of the screen and rains fireballs down. Mario has to use the propeller blocks to reach him and jump on him 3 times.
Bowser Jr. 2: Mario gets a Junior Clown Car of his own. Mario and Junior engage in a sumo match pushing each other into the electric walls.
Bowser Jr. 3: Bowser Jr. ditches the Junior Clown Car and hops in Bowser's Clown Car from SMW. He sets the ground on fire with his fireballs and drops giant spiked balls. Mario has to ground pound the floor to send the balls back up to Bowser Junior.
You also fight Kamek. It's a standard magikoopa fight with various shaped platforms that scroll left.
Bowser: probably the best final Bowser fight in a 2D Mario game. Bowser grows to insanely huge proportions and chases Mario through his lair. Mario has to stay alive through platforming skill and use Bowser's attacks to open paths forward until he reaches a switch that ends the fight.
NSMBWii serves to reintroduce the Koopalings after their long absence. Their miniboss encounters serve as callbacks to SMB3 while their full boss battles introduce new mechanics. Ludwig especially is a very cool fight. NSMBWii deserves a lot of credit for making Bowser Jr. enjoyable, as his boss fights in this game really shine. And of course the final boss of this game is amazing.
NSMB2:
Reznor returns from SMW as the miniboss of the towers. This time, however, there are variations to the fights: 2 Reznor on 1 wheel, 4 Reznor on 1 wheel, 4 Reznor on 2 wheels, 4 Reznor on a gaint wheel.
Roy gets first boss honors this round. He charges Mario like a chargin chuck and Mario needs to bait him into hitting the walls to stun him and leave him open to attack. The walls close in after each hit.
Iggy uses his chain chomp chariot again, but this time it moves along a more complex track.
Larry is fought in a room divided in half by a bridge with 2 pillars that come out of the floor/ceiling.
Wendy once again fights with rising/lowering water, but this time she's aided by cheep cheeps.
Morton takes a page from Donkey Kong and stands at the top of a set of ramps rolling spiked balls down at Mario and stomping to stun him.
Lemmy is fought on a conveyor belt and tries to push Mario to his death. Lemmy and Mario can change the direction of the conveyor belt by hitting the switch on the ceiling.
Ludwig swing from chains at the top of the screen and attacks Mario with fireballs. Mario has to use the cannons in the floor to knock Ludwig down to the ground so he can hit him.
Koopalings: In the Castles of World 6 and Star the Koopalings chase Mario in the background using Bowser's Clown Car and use their combined magic to turn him to stone. The castles are full of conveyor belts and donut blocks, so turning to stone will dump Mario into the lava and kill him. Mario has to hide behind walls to avoid this.
Bowser gets huge and attacks Mario and the falling platforms Mario climbs on as Mario climbs to the top of a tower.
Dry Bowser: a slightly more challenging version of the Bowser fight.
As a project made largely by younger staff members, it's hard to fault them for reusing ideas from NSMBWii for a few of the bosses. None of the bosses really stand out, though, and the final boss is especially weak after NSMBWii's blew us away.
NSMBU:
Minibosses: Usually Boom Boom. Kamek uses magic to change up Boom Boom's tactics by giving him wings, making him faster, making him giant etc. There's also a giant Sumo Bro and Kamek.
Lemmy turns his balls into giant bouncing bombs.
Morton turns his magic wand into a hammer. He stands on one side of the area and a giant pokey pops out of the sand. Morton hits pieces of the pokey at Mario.
Larry is fought in a room with 3 geysers that shoot up at random intervals (there is a cool variation on this fight in challenge mode where you have to defeat Larry without touching the ground).
Wendy figure skates around a frozen room shooting her rings of magic. This time the rings knock down icicles from the ceiling.
Iggy runs around using the warp pipes to warp between sides of the room and even run on the ceiling. He summons magmaarghs from the lava that rise up and attack Mario.
Roy attacks with a bullet bill bazooka.
Ludwig uses magic to fly to the top of the screen and summon clones of himself. He and his clones create a bullet hell of magic for Mario to dodge, then hop around for Mario to find the real Ludwig.
Bowser Jr is encountered by himself 3 times.
Bowser Jr. 1: fought underwater. Mario must kite targeting teds to trick them into hitting Bowser Jr.
Bowser Jr. 2: Bowser Jr. uses bob-ombs and boxing gloves to attack Mario and the breakable platform Mario stands on. Mario has to jump on Jr. or throw bob-ombs at him 3 times by climbing up the clown car's arms or hitting him when he swoops down.
Bowser Jr. 3: using the dome from the first fight, Jr. is impervious to all attacks. He chases Mario around the castle and ground pounds at him, causing platforms to fall into the lava and other things. Mario just has to make it to the end.
Bowser Jr and Bowser. Bowser is once again large and in charge. Jr. attacks Mario in his junior clown car. If Mario hits Bowser Jr he will be knocked out of the clown car and Mario can hijack it. Mario has to fly the clown car above Bowser and use it to ground pound Bowser. This knocks Mario out of the clown car and Jr. can take it back. Bowser Jr. cannot be defeated no matter how many times Mario hits him. Once Mario hits Bowser 3 times the fight ends.
NSMBU brings us all new boss mechanics for all of the koopalings once again. Standouts are Morton, Larry, Ludwig, Bowser Jr. and Bowser. While the final boss isn't quite as epic as NSMBWii's, attacking Bowser with the clown car is all kinds of awesome.
Jonneh3003
Banned
^holy shit
dreamlongdead
Member
The boss fights are unremarkable on their own, but they are definitely not terrible either.
They don't negatively affect the overall 2D platforming experience.
They don't negatively affect the overall 2D platforming experience.
Nocturnowl
Member
Once we got past NSMBDS Bowser Jr really stole the show with the series boss battles.
Juke Joint Jezebel
Member
I always found the 2D Mario bosses to never really be that great to be honest. The Koopalings were bland and repetitive in SMB3, pathetically easy in SMW, and the bowser fights were really samey in SMB1 but that was sort of understandable what with it being a launch game for a brand new system.
The only remotely interesting boss fights in the series for me where SMB2, but that's because they were essentially from a different game, and even then, the birdo battles got repetitive as all hell.
NSMB's bosses feel like they've been trodding the same ground over and over. It's a good thing most of the 2D games have good level design to compensate!
The only remotely interesting boss fights in the series for me where SMB2, but that's because they were essentially from a different game, and even then, the birdo battles got repetitive as all hell.
NSMB's bosses feel like they've been trodding the same ground over and over. It's a good thing most of the 2D games have good level design to compensate!
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
Because that's not the point of the series. The fun in Mario has always come from more from jumping through the levels, than the enemies.
Yeah, I love the 2D Marios (mostly), but the vast majority of boss battles are incredibly disappointing. Not just in difficulty either, but there's very little spectacle or flashiness either. They don't feel satisfying when you beat them. The SMG games might have fairly easy bosses to defeat as well, but at least they have the spectacle.
JudgeFlips
Banned
Threads like these make we wanna commit suicide. There is no hope for humanity.
If you weren't making the comment in jest and are having actual thoughts about suicide, the suicide prevention hotline for the United States is 1-800-273-8255. Please call them or your own national hotline if you live outside the US, they're always ready to help.
If you were joking, what the hell?
JudgeFlips
Banned
Do you really have to question my intentions?
Sword Of Doom
Member
They were fun as a kid. Haven't played that game since so I don't know how they hold up but I remember them being more fun than 1 and 3.
I guess the Bosses in SMB 1 especially were the bowser levels themselves. And those were always super intimidating as a kid
I don't know you, but if you're talking about suicide of course I'm going to be worried.