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Why do job-hoppers get bigger raises than loyal employees?
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GHG
Member
No, not at the moment anyway. Did for a very short amount of time when I was contracted to work directly for a large US construction firm. Prior to the oil price starting to go south I used to do Oil and Gas (2009-2013).
I currently cover Forensic Technology and Cyber Security markets.
If I myself had showed "loyalty" like many people are speaking of in this thread to my employer when I was doing oil and gas hires then I would have been made redundant in the last 12 months like many if my ex colleagues were.
So that brings me to another thing... If you see signs that your company or the industry you work in is going south, do what you can to get the fuck out of there before ou go down with it. If a company is struggling then they will not be loyal to you, they will get rid of you at the first opportunity they have in order to keep themselves afloat.
Your friends can leave the company any moment, then what? Your company could change it's policies/culture if new bosses come in, then what? Your company could even be acquired or merge with another firm in your field and that can cause a whole host of things to change.
Take care of 2 things and 2 things only:
- you continuing to grow a and improve in your field of work
- your paycheck continuing to grow on proportion to the above.
Friends at work are a bonus and should only be seen as such.
Apologies if I'm coming across as being very direct but I've seen many people in your situation before dismiss me when I approach them for the very reasons you are stating, only to come crawling back to me 12 months later asking for help because the situation has changed so drastically. You need to be in control of your destiny, not the other way around.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Fairly sure I read a paper that said a graduate aged 21 who switched jobs on average once every 15.7 months since the beginning of their career would early 28% more by the time they reached 30 - faster switches and companies began to distrust them and there was a slight negative effect. Still, 28% is... very appreciable. Obviously varies by industry though.
I'm going through the whole "loyalty? What loyalty?" thing at my current job. The main difference is that I've received an excellent promotion and multiple salary raises over 4 years, but in terms of career/skill acquisition things have gone to shit.
For the past 7 months I had negotiated a change of genres (game development) and despite the constant promises/reassurances the offer got swept from under my feet silently. The new offer is to go ahead and change genres... by taking on junior level responsibilities. Fuck that, I successfully led a team of 30 people, I'm not doing menial entry level shit.
I'm currently applying elsewhere, with multiple interviews lined up. Feels good.
For the past 7 months I had negotiated a change of genres (game development) and despite the constant promises/reassurances the offer got swept from under my feet silently. The new offer is to go ahead and change genres... by taking on junior level responsibilities. Fuck that, I successfully led a team of 30 people, I'm not doing menial entry level shit.
I'm currently applying elsewhere, with multiple interviews lined up. Feels good.
Shuggananas
Banned
Because they take risks, have more negotiating happening
Loyalty is overrated
Loyalty is overrated
Because job-hoppers actually do a form of negotiation for their wages. Corporations dont' make it their duty to reward the loyal. A guy could have been there for 19 years and never missed a day of work and made the company a ton of money, but they'll fire him in year 19 if it also means that they won't have to pay him a pension for making 20 years.
Corporations make it a duty to pay people as little as they believe they will accept in order to keep profit. The loyal to a corporation typically don't make a peep and get their wages frozen as a result.
Corporations make it a duty to pay people as little as they believe they will accept in order to keep profit. The loyal to a corporation typically don't make a peep and get their wages frozen as a result.
dreamcastmaster
Banned
This is one thing employees REALLY need to pay attention to. This has happened every time that I have known, people will lose their jobs in this situation.
Sure, when the merger happens your manager or a representative from the other company will get you all together and tell you earnestly that your jobs are safe and there will be no job losses. Then they slowly start picking people off one by on in "restructures and mergers"
Your "loyalty" in a redundancy that should give you a months salary for each year you worked will not be given (because reasons) and you'll be left with statutory.
Isn't this kind of burning bridges?
Nah, I told how it was. They chose to mistreat me for 4 years, keep dangling carrots in front of me. Company car, pay-bump once a project was finished, promotions.... they never happened. Every time there was the same excuse; no funds, no budget, we need the money for other purposes... meanwhile, the CTO comes driving up in a company-owned BMW 5-series worth 150.000 euro. Whaddaya mean, there's no money?
dreamcastmaster
Banned
exmachina64
Banned
Because experience from various workplaces is more valuable than experience in one workplace. Think about it as cakes you eat, you will know more about cakes when you've tasted 4 very different types of cakes instead of chewing on the same cake for years. Fact is people get different perspective and see things that may help in another job when they hop jobs a lot and employers value that. Especially if they've worked for the competition. Or you never become too lazy, coz you're always the new guy. When people stay at the same job for a long time and feel secure they tend to work less and less and become lazy at some point. Job hoppers can't afford to do that because they almost never reach that security point.
There's also the fact that a lot of stable workplaces don't get a lot of opportunity for raises. The places where you have to wait for someone to die to get a promotion. So you have the experience and knowledge to get a promotion, but you don't because there's no opening for it. Then you leave and get a promotion elsewhere.
Source: I work in HR.
There's also the fact that a lot of stable workplaces don't get a lot of opportunity for raises. The places where you have to wait for someone to die to get a promotion. So you have the experience and knowledge to get a promotion, but you don't because there's no opening for it. Then you leave and get a promotion elsewhere.
Source: I work in HR.
I've done this. It's far more telling of your attitude and if employers do actually value you then they will act to keep you.
Sure if you're too lazy to constantly job search or if you have some crazy notion that you can only do one job and that's all you're good for then maybe you're giving off the impression you're happy where you are.
Sure if you're too lazy to constantly job search or if you have some crazy notion that you can only do one job and that's all you're good for then maybe you're giving off the impression you're happy where you are.
Shining Sunshine
Banned
They replace you with someone cheaper with the same skillset.
Jacksinthe
Banned
The point of hopping 99% of the time is to increase pay. Yes, your old salary matters because what is the point of putting forth effort for a lateral movement?
1.look around
2.go on interview
3.get an offer
4.ask you company to counter-offer
5.profit
Ahh ok. I know plenty of (good)people in those roles who would be keen to work over there for a few years or so. Not to worry.
Those last two paragraphs are quite relevant to my situation. I resigned from my admittedly excellent job a few months ago, as I just had that feeling that things weren't going so well in the construction industry here. Everyone thought I was crazy, I wondered the same thing myself a few times...walking away from a job I've spent most of my life at and have made plenty of great friends with along the way wasn't easy.
I was looked after extremely well. I had no reason to leave. I was earning more money than I have and maybe ever will, but sometimes you just have to make the jump.
Which brings me to the last part...
That is some excellent advice from GHG there.
Rookje, I was in a similar boat to you. I was at one of the top companies in the country in my industry, I was working with a few guys who I consider "mates for life". I had no reason to leave and everyone was shocked when they found out I had put my resignation in.
I quit at the end of May, and both of my mates have followed suit in the last few weeks. I was like the catalyst for them to see the light. I still speak to and catch up with them on a regular basis. Even more so now that we don't see each other as much through work.
I'm not telling you to leave your job, but to make decisions for yourself. You will make new friends at your next job, and you'll more than likely stay in contact with the friends at your current job. It's all in your hands.
Meanwhile, my old boss is texting me tonight asking me to come back...it's nice to be loved I suppose
What if I actually really love the company I joined after college?
I seriously cannot dream of a better job for me.
CoffeeJanitor
Member
Tag
I can't even....
I'm not sure I'd ever accept a counter-offer. At that point, you've given indication that you're considering leaving. They'll be thinking about how to replace you. Even if you agree to stay, that may just give them time to prepare replacements before terminating your on their own schedule.
It depends on the company, and the situation, but in general I'd be cautious about it.
He's saying you don't need to tell an employer what your old salary is. Or, at the very least, you should resist doing so, if you don't have to. If the new position's salary range is higher than your old pay, your old pay will probably be used to justify giving you the lowest salary in the range.
If you're in a technical field, I think it pays to leave once you feel like you're no longer learning from others. Even if it's a great place to work. And anyways, if you leave on good terms, you can probably go back.
GoldenEye 007
Member
I thought the standard in most cases is that the old employer has to be truthful and stick to factual information. I'm not sure revealing salary info is illegal or anything.
That's not to say former employers just frequently stick to basic info like titles and dates of employment to avoid saying something potentially not factual.
And if the new employer asks for verification from you directly through a W2 or tax return? Although if they did, its probably a big red flag not to move forward with them.
Edit: Unless the old company has a specific policy on what is said during verification/reference checking thet they violated or you have negotiated what they will say prior to you leaving.
Dusk Soldier
Member
I think we're over thinking this a bit too much.
The reason job hoppers generally get better raises, is that most people won't job hop to a company that's paying them what they're already making.
The reason job hoppers generally get better raises, is that most people won't job hop to a company that's paying them what they're already making.
because you're having to consistently go through interview processes and also you get to highlight new skills learned and additional benefits to employing you,
where in most companies in which you stay for years unless you have a SOLID career plan and one to ones regularly (let's face it who really does)
you and your worth goes mainly unnoticed.
I change jobs every 2 years even if I'm happy at a company so I can move up and on to better things,
but if I like a company I do keep my eye out to see higher roles there in the future. That's life I'm afraid.
This has been a problem in the technology sector for a while. As I understand it, or at least how HR has explained it to me, is that people who change jobs every few years show worth by being upwardly mobile and have shown clear value to new employers. A woman I work with was very upset because we have to apply for promotions, while people with clearly far less education, knowledge and talent can be hired from the outside right into those senior positions more easily than we can be promoted into them.
Most employers aren't thinking longterm. In a huge environment and a sophisticated job, it's going to take that new person a good six months to get acclimated to the environment. A good year or more to even get a good grasp on all the moving components or a large place - no matter how good their manager(s) are. Then they leave a year or two after that. They are simply less efficient and productive for the first year, at least. All of the greatest companies have been known for rewarding productivity and loyalty. It's why I think this new idea of hiring outside candidates before promoting internal ones is stupid and wasteful.
Most employers aren't thinking longterm. In a huge environment and a sophisticated job, it's going to take that new person a good six months to get acclimated to the environment. A good year or more to even get a good grasp on all the moving components or a large place - no matter how good their manager(s) are. Then they leave a year or two after that. They are simply less efficient and productive for the first year, at least. All of the greatest companies have been known for rewarding productivity and loyalty. It's why I think this new idea of hiring outside candidates before promoting internal ones is stupid and wasteful.
whatsinaname
Member
Those Google and Amazon median salaries at age 30 years seem rather low for SF and Seattle considering the quality of talent they employ. And couple that with the crazy stories we have been hearing about working conditions at Amazon, I can see why the turnover is high.
BeforeU
Oft hope is born when all is forlorn.
THE LAST THING you want to do is become irreplaceable. Once you become irreplaceable, manager won't promote you, and teaching newbe what you do would be tough. So you will be stuck with your salary, might get a raise but that is only to cover you from inflation.
Pretty much this.
it definitely factors in. If I am called for an interview, and deciding to change my job. I am not settling for something lower or same. I want more.
No background check wouldn't tell you the salary
Pretty much this.
it definitely factors in. If I am called for an interview, and deciding to change my job. I am not settling for something lower or same. I want more.
No background check wouldn't tell you the salary
That's really not true. Just myself as an example, in the past five years with my current company I have received a promotion, increased my base salary by $30k, and am eligible for and receive more discretionary bonuses. For my job title I am $10k above the area average. If one can find their niche and prove adaptability they can go far. Some employers are just shitty and would rather recycle younger workers for far less money.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
"Job-hoppers" probably have better negotiating skills than longer-term employees. Because they negotiate more often they get to set the price they want with every new employer, and if that employer won't accept it, then it's time to look elsewhere. Comparatively you will negotiate pay less often with a current employer.
That's not true at all.
When you're doing something niche and you're good at it (irreplaceable), that's where all the money is. The employer knows they can't find another you therefore they'll do anything to make you stay. I have a friend who in the period of 5 years got from Junior position to Head of Department because he does something that 20 other people do on the planet. Find your niche and you'll have everything you ask for.
balladofwindfishes
Member
My dad's old company laid him off and a few months later asked him to come back because they couldn't go on without him. He didn't and it took years before the company found a replacement and only recently have they managed to get back on track.
And still they say he can come back whenever he wants, and it's been eight years.
He had 20 years of knowledge of a very specific technology and without that experience, the company had a hard time adjusting.
So I do believe a person can make themselves irreplaceable.
Too bad my dad never realized it and was horribly underpaid.
Good, no reason to give you a raise. You love the company already.
I've been in recruitment for a long time and unfortunately this is still very true. As you stick with a company you will get stuck in a salary band and market/equity adjustments are hard to come by.
The down side of job hopping is that if we see too much we won't call you or hire you. I typically never reach out to anybody who can't stick with a job for at least 18 months.
The down side of job hopping is that if we see too much we won't call you or hire you. I typically never reach out to anybody who can't stick with a job for at least 18 months.
TheRedSnifit
Member
You don't owe a corporation any loyalty.The job-hoppers didn't invent capitalism, or invent its rules; they simply play within those rules. Your employers won't hesitate to fire you at the drop of a hat if it fits their business needs. You should follow their example.
Although they do regularly give employees raises and promotions. Part of the reason I like them is because I know what to expect. I'm eligible for a raise within the next few months.
As for learning, I'm in R&D so we are always learning haha.
Some corporations do take care of their high performers. My salary has gone up 30% in less than two years between annual increase, promotion and other salary sweeteners. To get that somewhere else would have been unlikely except at small companies with worse benefits. Come work here.
Completely incorrect.
When I changed jobs I was asked what my salary was. I gave them my salary plus my max bonuses earned in my best year.
Guess what? They started me at my max bonus figure not what my actual salary was!
DudeWithNoName
Member
Congratulations. I also have to add that you should NEVER accept a counter offer. I've never seen that work out for the employee. You're forever known as disloyal to your employer.
crowphoenix
Banned
I'm sure this has been said, but it's because you're not special and you're replaceable. The company already has you and doesn't have to try. If you leave, either someone will cover well enough that they don't have to hire at all, or they'll just grab someone else that will bring new ideas and energy to the company.
Coriolanus
Banned
Pretty much. We'll keep you around for exactly as long as it takes to find a replacement, then you'll immediately be made redundant.
BibiMaghoo
Member
Retention.
A 'loyal' employee isn't going to go anywhere, and so doesn't need to be looked after. A 'job-hopper' has no such ties, and so the only thing keeping them at that work is a competitive salary.
Basically it's to keep movers happy, because the others are already happy. That being said it really fucking sucks when someone rolls into a job on a higher wage than you with less experience, but it is what it is.
A 'loyal' employee isn't going to go anywhere, and so doesn't need to be looked after. A 'job-hopper' has no such ties, and so the only thing keeping them at that work is a competitive salary.
Basically it's to keep movers happy, because the others are already happy. That being said it really fucking sucks when someone rolls into a job on a higher wage than you with less experience, but it is what it is.
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