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Why do people argue that fighting games have memorization?
- Thread starter Boss Doggie
- Start date
KittenMaster
Member
This topic seems like a string pulled from Smash Bros. vs. other fighting game debates, because otherwise its relevancy is really confusing.
You gotta memorize something in every game, especially those that are considered competitive games like fighters, FPS and RTS games. But the beauty of those games is that you don't need to memorize it if you have no desire to play at a high level.
Do you have to memorize weapon/upgrade spawn points in an FPS game, build orders in an RTS, Hadoukens in a fighter if you're playing those games casually? Nope. Do you have to memorize them if you want to compete at an intermediate or advanced level? Yes.
Do you have to memorize weapon/upgrade spawn points in an FPS game, build orders in an RTS, Hadoukens in a fighter if you're playing those games casually? Nope. Do you have to memorize them if you want to compete at an intermediate or advanced level? Yes.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
Memorization is a small part of it. After you learn or memorize something, assuming you actually have the skill to pull of the combo or move, it becomes completely second nature. Everytime I'm playing a fighter I don't pause the game and remember exactly how to do the combo first. Shit just happens. Stop playing Smash and being a bitch. The two seem to go hand in hand.
woxel1 said:
It's all about mind games.
Funny you should mention that, because Chess has a very simple moveset, about the same as the earliest fighting games.
As far as I can figure, there are 10 distinct moves to remember in Chess:
Pawn move, Pawn double opening move, Pawn capture move, Knight movement, Bishop movement, Rook movement, Queen movement, King movement (all non-pawns capture the same as they move), Castle, and en-passant capture. Memorizing the game's entire moveset takes a couple minutes, and beyond that, it's all about the application of that simple set of moves.
Compare that with the move list of the average Soul Calibur character and I think you see where the complaints come from. While I agree with the OP that many of the 2d fighting games do indeed offer simpler movesets and tend more toward strategic/tactical application gameplay, they too have become more complex over the years.
Memorizing is basically a prerequisite. It is necessary, but insufficient criteria for victory against a good opponent.DY_nasty said:
If you don't memorize your moveset, you'll be at a serious disadvantage. There's not enough consistency in the mapping from button inputs to move outputs to do it all on the fly. And without knowing the properties of your moves, it's impossible to say what the right spacing or positioning is, or what attack you should use to get priority.
Everything you're talking about is derived from that initial memorization. And particularly in 3D games like Tekken, it can be HUGE. I've played hours upon hours upon hours of Hwoarang, and I still only know a small portion of his moveset.
Other genres have ways that let you avoid memorization. For instance, RTS games will often display tooltips that describe the strengths and weaknesses of a unit. FPS titles tend to have simple rules that govern their weapons (like Halo's Energy Weapons = most effective against energy shields. Physical weapons = most effective against physical armor).
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
MaxSteel said:
Too be fair Soul Calibur move lists are fucking ridiculous and not necessarily the norm when it comes to fighters, though 3D fighters seem to be the worst offenders in this area. Soul Calibur also has to resort to having Star Wars characters to get nerds to buy it. Shitty game.
When it comes to 3D games, at least in Virtua Fighter, that extremely long list of moves are merely just evolutions of certain kind of move(or the previous move).
Like the move Punch(P; as in just one punch).
Then:
P P
P P P
P P P P
P P P P K
That's just simple example. When you look at it that way the move lists aren't intimidating as much.
Like the move Punch(P; as in just one punch).
Then:
P P
P P P
P P P P
P P P P K
That's just simple example. When you look at it that way the move lists aren't intimidating as much.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
OK, first of all, WTF is a Dragon Punch?Ookami-kun said:
Also, I don't have time to learn all of the component parts, let alone long combos made from these parts. If a character has a move like a "Dragon Punch" that goes toward larger move combos, then that "Dragon Punch" should be mapped to a button. If fighting games are about scissors/paper/rock/position strategy, then let them be about strategy. Down with long combos and requirements of dexterity.
Shouta
Member
Just as Oichi says, everything has memorization to an extent especially competitive games. Even my favorite competitive game right now, Gundam vs Gundam Next has some minor memorization in it and it's not even a fighting game.
Now, if you're talking about the level of mermoziation needed at higher levels, that's a different thing.
Now, if you're talking about the level of mermoziation needed at higher levels, that's a different thing.
DarkoMaledictus
Tier Whore
Well controls are complex and its fine like that... not the special moves but the combos. Fighting games like streer fighter 3 can take a decade to master and you probably haven't seen everything its possible to do in that time frame. Thing is fighting games are closer to an art than anything else... it takes amazing skill to master some of them! One of the reasons they are international competitions... your average joe will just never pull some of the execution madness these guys are doing!
Look at some Sanford combos... the 1 frame links and such things that are being pulled on a whim... now thats precision!
Look at some Sanford combos... the 1 frame links and such things that are being pulled on a whim... now thats precision!
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
viciouskillersquirrel said:
Dragon punch... Shoryuken.. forward, down, down-forward,
Lol you want every move mapped to a button? So uh, to play Ryu for example in SFIV... you would need 3 extra buttons for the srk, fireball, and hurricane kick? And then 2 more buttons for the ultra and super? That doesn't even count different variations of a move. Do you want 3 different buttons for a jab srk, strong srk, and fierce srk? Sorry, I don't want to play on a 20 button joystick because a few people are too dense to learn a half circle forward motion.
I don't get gamers anymore. We've becomes a bunch of lazy fucks that just want a win button and pretty graphics.
Addressing the bolded, you're completely wrong in this. If you think a simple D,F, F+A is going to win you a fight against anyone in any fighting game, then you're ignorant to how fighting games (outside of Smash) work.Slavik81 said:
Everything else is just off-topic and lulz.
DarkoMaledictus
Tier Whore
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds said:
I think he was being sarcastic... if he wasn't... (walking away)
Nose Master
Member
Because a lot of them do require memorization? Esp the larger casts, memorizing what beats what priority wize and what to do in certain situations is memorization. And no, nobody except fighting game dorks know the srk motion.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
Nose Master said:
Jesus, if you guys don't like fighting games... go play some shit you do like instead of trying to ruin the genre for everyone else. I'm sure there has to be something just brain dead enough for you guys to enjoy without having to memorize much. Shit, memorization isn't the hard part of a fighter if you didn't huff metalic spray paint as a child.
Nose Master
Member
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds said:
I didn't mean fighting game dork as a derogatory statement, man.
Fighting games are no different than other competitive genre's when it comes to fundamentals of progression, it's just harder to get into simply because a lot of people are not used to arcade sticks if they use them. It has it's own learning curve on top of the game it self. Once you can execute, you have to work on muscle memory. Knowing what to do, and being able to do it without thinking about it is a key part of fighting games. It's a form of memorization, because you have to play a shitload before you get any results. You can't think about doing a FADC>ultra, you have to just do it.
Nose Master
Member
Not to mention combos, even. The definition of memorization.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
Brashnir said:
These threads pop up all the time and people bitch about these "issues" non-stop. It's just a bunch of people bitching about games they apparently don't like. Why waste your time trying to change some shit you have no interest in in the first place? Go play something else you do enjoy. It's hella annoying.
Memory = "insufficient criteria for victory against a good opponent"?KevinCow said:
If you don't know shit, how are you going to do shit?
And regarding Smash, I'm really just talking about length and complexity of the average combo when compared against other more orthodox fighting games.
You can play fighting game without memorization at all. All you need to do is just button-mashing every button on the controller. However, to be good at it require a high level of memorization and judgement and precise timing, etc.
I cant do all that, so I end up playing only one fighting game which is Tekken and using only one character which is Steve Fox.
I cant do all that, so I end up playing only one fighting game which is Tekken and using only one character which is Steve Fox.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
Nose Master said:
lol
My brother used to say that I was better at fighting games than him because I knew the moves and he didn't. Which is fair enough.
Thing is, his way of learning was to sit and try every single possible move with the 'A' button and 'master' that first. He never got anywhere, despite me insisting that learning a single move was irrelevant to knowing how it fit into the game mechanics. It didn't matter that he knew how to do it if he didn't know when to use it.
Thing is, his way of learning was to sit and try every single possible move with the 'A' button and 'master' that first. He never got anywhere, despite me insisting that learning a single move was irrelevant to knowing how it fit into the game mechanics. It didn't matter that he knew how to do it if he didn't know when to use it.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
Brashnir said:
I could see if people enjoyed the fighters they were discussing, but might just have a few issues with certain mechanics... But that obviously isn't the case with 99% of the people that complain about memorization or dexterity in these threads. I think most of you guys are confusing the fighting genre with beat-em ups. If you want to mash a button, not memorize anything, and see cool shit happen... God of War 3 comes out soon, and I bet it is a blast to play. I know I'll be buying it.
Unknown One
Member
Damn I was about to come in to say muscle memory.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
MaxSteel said:
I never got into SC. I bought SC for Dreamcast, because of all the hype, and just couldn't get into it. Ever since then I've tried getting into the series with friends and I still feel the same about it. I generally just don't care for 3D fighters that much, so that could be it.
Also, after watching some of the matches at Evo... It was a ring out fest. Every round ended in a ring out. It was both awesome and sad.
viciouskillersquirrel
Member
Far from it. What I want is standardisation of component movesets across the board within each game for each character. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to memorise the moves of one character and not be able to play as another and not be able to pull off their equivalent moves (obviously, these would vary in both power, timing and effect)Frank "Trashman" Reynolds said:
Also, the dude who said a Dragon Punch is made up of a "Shuryuken", then some other moves, THAT'S the reason people like me don't play fighting games and your genre is reducing itself to a niche, because, as I say "WTF is a Shuryuken?".
I like that this thread is a slow burn backfire. The OP is slowly transitioning away from fighting games don't need memorization. I feel like the only way for it to end is for him to say that fighting games require a great deal of memorization like it was his originial point and then the thread gets locked.
A lot depends on the game and the elements.
Some games require a ton of memorization- such as Tekken. Things like knowing your punishes at -10, -12, and -15, and knowing what a move is.
That stuff is hard to figure out intuitively. It takes practice.
Add to that execution barriers, many of which are artifically inflated by companies- and it's no wonder why people stick to other genres.
As for Soul Calibur- the reason it gets hate is because it wastes a ton of potential, it's a great system with crappy balance
Some games require a ton of memorization- such as Tekken. Things like knowing your punishes at -10, -12, and -15, and knowing what a move is.
That stuff is hard to figure out intuitively. It takes practice.
Add to that execution barriers, many of which are artifically inflated by companies- and it's no wonder why people stick to other genres.
As for Soul Calibur- the reason it gets hate is because it wastes a ton of potential, it's a great system with crappy balance
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds said:
I can see where that might make you upset if someone came into the official Street Fighter 4 thread complaining that the Dragon Punch motion was stupid and should be removed, but this thread is a thread about the level of memorization required in fighting games. Discussion on that topic is appropriate here and shouldn't be shouted down with "GTFO if you don't like it" sorts of comments.
Personally, I prefer fighting games with simple movesets, where application and timing are the more important elements while playing. I'd like to see more games come out that trended more toward simple movesets than complex ones. I'm not saying that complexity should be outlawed or that those types of games shouldn't exist - I'd just like to see some games that went the other way.
Frank "Trashman" Reynolds
Banned
Brashnir said:
I have no problem with that.
Fighting games are all about memorization. That eventually becomes muscle memory, so you don't have to think about it, but the learning curve is still there.
Take the Blazblue vid posted above. In order to execute the first combo there, by Ragna, the player must input B, C, QCB->F+D, dash forward, forward->A, jump, B, C, jump, B, C, Dragon Punch C, quarter circle backward C. That's about 13 separate inputs in pretty rapid succession. Blazblue's input windows are fairly wide, but knowing that you need to do all those things together isn't something you improvise each time you do it. It's something you memorize, and after practice, can do once you find your opening without even having to think about it.
Street Fighter 4 is less rigid about this for some characters, but for others, cultivating proper muscle memory is a must. The trial mode helps this along a bit, but it takes a lot of practice to know which moves can be cancelled or linked into which other moves.
The genre sort of has to be this way to some extent (it's not like a player doesn't slowly undergo a similar learning process in SSBM to that of SF4). RTS games work similarly, as people learn trained sequences of actions to properly build units efficiently, and from that base elaborate into improvization and micromanagement. That's competition. That said, extremely competitive genres of this sort have absolutely brutal learning curves, and an individual's ability to enjoy those games is tied to his tolerance for failure and his desire to endure some rote practice and memorization in order to compete.
Take the Blazblue vid posted above. In order to execute the first combo there, by Ragna, the player must input B, C, QCB->F+D, dash forward, forward->A, jump, B, C, jump, B, C, Dragon Punch C, quarter circle backward C. That's about 13 separate inputs in pretty rapid succession. Blazblue's input windows are fairly wide, but knowing that you need to do all those things together isn't something you improvise each time you do it. It's something you memorize, and after practice, can do once you find your opening without even having to think about it.
Street Fighter 4 is less rigid about this for some characters, but for others, cultivating proper muscle memory is a must. The trial mode helps this along a bit, but it takes a lot of practice to know which moves can be cancelled or linked into which other moves.
The genre sort of has to be this way to some extent (it's not like a player doesn't slowly undergo a similar learning process in SSBM to that of SF4). RTS games work similarly, as people learn trained sequences of actions to properly build units efficiently, and from that base elaborate into improvization and micromanagement. That's competition. That said, extremely competitive genres of this sort have absolutely brutal learning curves, and an individual's ability to enjoy those games is tied to his tolerance for failure and his desire to endure some rote practice and memorization in order to compete.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
KevinCow said:
Why is it unnecessary then?
Brashnir said:
I think there's more and more gamers like that. A lot of the hard stuff in fighting games is unneeded. I don't mind things that are necessary to be hard, like timing something precisely to beat a move out, but things like 1-frame links, overly complex and illogical motions like Summon Suffering, and some other things could be done in a better fashion.
If I was designing a fighter, I'd keep the motions pretty simple.