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[64bitmodels]

If people didn't like Live Service, it wouldn't be the most popular game type in the industry.

people don't like live service. moms dont like having charges on their credit card for vbucks, people dont like having to grind season passes, and people don't like having to buy costumes when games prior let you unlock them

people play these games because they're free and multiplayer. simple as. Mobile games managed to succeed off of the exact same 2 things. people like free games

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

people don't like live service

The numbers say otherwise.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

they hate them because they love them

 

[kicker]

it's single player gamers who resent the rise and dominance of multiplayer

Resent is kinda heavy

For some reason, the majority of people who like talking about + following the industry are SP gamers

This is an interesting discussion though; might be something to do with the fact that forums rose up after arcades fell, and in the advent of home consoles and shareware pc games, there weren't really places to play mostly offline games and connect socially at the same time. Forums probably served that purpose and maybe people stuck with them once they got into larger communities.
Now that social connection is more in-depth and accessible with the rise of discord and twitch, younger people that weren't forced to go to forums to talk about games just talk about them with close friends in their discords or twitch streams.
So the only people taking about games publicly are the ones who grew up talking about and playing games that way. My theory probably doesn't make sense but there's some discussion to be had there

 

[cash_longfellow]

I still wonder why people hate borderlands so much…it’s anyone’s answer to this question. Especially BL2.

 

[64bitmodels]

The numbers say otherwise.

people play these games because they're free and multiplayer. simple as. Mobile games managed to succeed off of the exact same 2 things. people like free games

 

[Johnny Concrete]

If it is executed well then I’m perfectly fine with it, but more often than not it isn’t.
Especially if the gear upgrades are so incremental that it doesn’t even affect your gameplay, it’s all about numbers going up.

But that’s more due to the game design rather than it being a GaaS product.

 

[SeraphJan]

Because they break immersion it made everything in the game felt artificial and fake

 

[Wildebeest]

Honestly, it's single player gamers who resent the rise and dominance of multiplayer. For some reason, the majority of people who like talking about + following the industry are SP gamers.

It was the way in the heyday of forums that general game forums are dominated by people into single player games with RPG players heavily overrepresented while MP gamers usually congregated on game specific boards, maybe even preferring IRC or game lobbies.

 

[FoxMcChief]

People don’t. Just some here.

 

[Fbh]

I generally have no problem with GAAS for games which are primarily competitive PVP (assuming the paid stuff is cosmetic).
Having a fun multiplayer be supported for many years with free content updates financed by idiot whales spending hundreds or thousands on skins is awesome. I don't like the gameplay in Fortnite nor do I like Battle Royale so I don't play it, but I have to admit some of the stuff they've made with the game like the events, season finales and the overall drastic evolution it has had over the years for literally $0 is quite amazing.

I dislike GAAS in PVE format because they are build around farming and grinding which are 2 things I've hated since way before GAAS was a thing. The entire GAAS model is built around the idea of basically making endless games that players are intended to play for years and I deeply dislike everything related to that when it's not applied to a PVP experience. I can think of few things I dislike more in games than them being designed around replaying the same area again and again killing the same enemies again and again in the hopes of either getting crafting materials or small incremental upgrades.

And since I rarely play PVP it means that GAAS in genres that would theoretically appeal to me are all designed in a way that I absolutely hate.

 

[Lasha]

Live service games are fun as a concept. A games player base no longer fractures when characters, maps, or modes are released as DLC. We get games that would have been full priced for free now. Live service is just the model though. It has nothing to do with the quality of the game.

I think looter games are boring because I dislike the concept of gear in general. SoT is my favorite live service game because there is no fake progression in stats. I think that too many bad games extend their life with gear and grinding.

 

[Needlecrash]

GAAS tends to be very grindy with significant pay to win elements to "keep the game going". Usually, they don't turn out well. See The Avengers for example.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Because the game design is geared toward making you pay more than what you already paid for the game. And not in good ways. Normally it's worse

I never spent a dime on Warframe.

 

[MirageMew2]

FOMO and creeping costs suck. If I feel like I’m clocking in on a job to get the most of a battle pass or timed event I’m already over it.

GAAS tends to be very grindy with significant pay to win elements to "keep the game going". Usually, they don't turn out well. See The Avengers for example.

Avengers didn’t have pay-to-win anything. In fact Avengers probably had the complete opposite problem - every content update and additional hero was free, and the game was purely supported by cosmetics purchases. They overpromised and underdelivered for sure, but at no cost to the player that’s for sure. I’d actually call Avengers’ live service model a more positive example, if they could’ve actually delivered content at a consistent rate.

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

It depends on how things are implemented. Something like Apex Legends friends and I for the first few years bought passes or coins because we wanted to support such a brilliant game and devs with amazing local Aussie support (especially that first and second year). Sometimes it was the skins being cool AF too. Those same friends and I grew very tired of recycled content, season passes and RNG bullshit in Destiny 2 for example. Something like Halo MCC or Infinite or Apex has a pretty great system that isn't pay to win and generally from a free to play install base. Forza Horizons and MS Flight were other passes I somewhat subbed to and enjoyed the extra content off the back of Gamepass/F2P etc. Star Wars loot boxes were fucking hated and annoying, resulting in us dropping the game(s) pretty quickly.

When I see something like MCC years and years later getting dev love, maps for old games and sustain it's something I enjoy paying and playing. The opposite can also be true where I hate Destiny 2 RNG or when they force just short "coin packs" so you purchase a second one etc. Regarding Halo Infinite I purchased one season pass based on getting the campaign for "free" with GP and knowing I'd be in it for a good season at least. I was then able to opt out of paying anything as I did not like the direction and lack of content out of Infinite, vote with your wallet sort of thing.

 

[zmbk]

When you're an adult who doesn't have a lot of free time, it becomes very difficult to like meaningless grind

 

[Drizzlehell]

"highly addictive"

And there you have the problem.

Not if you're a responsible adult. I've been playing those games for years and the closest I ever got to spending any cash on MTX was when I bough a subscription to ESO for like a month.

Nothing wrong with the gameplay being "addictive" as in, entertaining enough to keep you coming back. Stop regurgitating shit that you've heard in youtube videos.

Destiny? It's an abusive FOMO grind that is essentially a subscription MMO because if you don't pay for the full year of quarterly content drops, you don't get the bulk of the content they release and you're left behind. Bungie has repeatedly done the bare minimum for years, recycling content, including weapons and maps. They've literally taken away content people paid for and their hardcore fans defend them for it.

Every other live service looter shooter aspires to be Destiny. They all copy the exact same model. Whether it was The Division, or The Avengers, or Anthem, or Suicide Squad... they're all chasing Destiny. And Destiny is abusive af.

Some of them may have started out with good ideas but every single live service looter shooter devolves into milking their fanbase for as much as possible. We saw this exact same thing play out in the MMO genre when everyone was trying to be the next World of Warcraft. They'd fail, then go F2P, and try to milk as much money out of their limited players until the faded into irrelevance or shut down entirely.

Except Destiny wasn't the game that started it. Warframe was. When Destiny came out everyone kept calling it an inferior FPS version of Warframe. Obviously you've got no idea what you're talking about.

The only thing you're correct about is that content vaulting is dumb but that's about as big of a revelation as the fact that the sun rises in the morning. Bungie's poor planning is what led to it but honestly when you think about it, nothing of real value was lost with that year 1 content. Those campaigns were average at best and no one played that shit anyway so I understand why regular players aren't that broken up about it. At least they won't be pushing the reset button again moving forward and the possibility of bringing that stuff back in some future update isn't off the table.

What matters most is that core gameplay loop is good and that's what makes Destiny fun to play. At the end of the day, all you're doing is shooting monsters against some cool looking backdrops so it's more important to make that aspect of the gameplay good. Not some mediocre cutscenes that provide bare minimum of context.

 

[balls of snow]

Because everyone whether youre Elon Musk or a regular old Joe only has 24 hours in a day. We want fulfilling experiences that end not juggle around 10+ live service games that go on forever.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

Gaming community bubbles don't like them, but a majority of gamers seem to be drawn to them in big numbers.

 

[phant0m]

there are plenty of others that I've sunk a ridiculous amount of hours into over the years so it's not all bad.

this. i don't have time to spend 600 hours grinding your game to get endgame/best loot/whatever. they're also designed to feel "never complete" -- you never "beat" the game. MMOs have the same problem

at it's core, my real problem with it is slapping live service mechanics (numbers go up, dopamine goes brrrr) can ruin what would've been a perfectly good game. example 1: anthem. shit felt incredible to play, was mechanically very solid, and looked nice but they went and put a stupid "hub", matchmaking with randos, and a loot system that made no sense in-world. would've been an incredible 20-30 hour single-player linear TPS. example 2: GR Breakpoint -- the series known for being the milsim for people that don't want to learn 47 keybinds to play. what'd they do? put in "loot" and "Gear score", which makes no sense at in that world or in the series. they stripped all that shit out now and toned down the awful UI and hey, it's actually a really decent Ghost Recon game now

I have been playing Fallout 76, bought it during Steam sales, didn't spent a dime on microstransactions. Have close to 200 hrs playing time and I feel this is the kind of looter shooter that isn't bad.

The bright side is they keep releasing content and I can see why it continues to have strong community

lowkey FO76 is the best Fallout game since New Vegas, don't @ me

 

[Dr. Claus]

I love the folks with sunkcost fallacy trying to come in here and say "It really isn't that bad, guys!" when anyone with a brain can tell that this shit is terrible.

 

[hinch7]

Constant advertisements plastered all over my splash screen and menus. Its obnoxious and damn-right annoying in some games. Bearable in others. Games like CS, it isn't bad.

CoD games on the other hand, are downright awful. You litterally can't play the game without being reminded that it is a live service title with all the season pass shennanigans at every open opportunity.

Don't hate the games though. Just the crappy season pass/live models.

 

[Kacho]

I just find the experiences hollow and unrewarding. No interest in being nickel and dimed for everything either. If something is always online, has battle passes and loads of cosmetic MTX I won’t touch it.

Seeing people say “well they’re popular” like it means something is kinda weird too. Especially on an enthusiast gaming forum. Mobile games are popular too, doesn’t mean I’d ever want to touch them.

 

[Deleted member 471617]

I don't love or hate looter live service games. In fact, if I get a good one, awesome and if not, no biggie.

 

[tusharngf]

i played PUBG PC for couple of years. Instead of fixing the game they brought skins and cloths in every single update. I hated that and stopped playing PUBG after that. Later they put season pass for these loot only.

 

[DemonGamerTTT]

Warframe is just as predatory as the others. Not an exception.

That weird narrative that it's not... it boggles my mind, have you guys even played it?

Finally someone that really played the fucking game!!!! Most drones just play a couple of hours and vomit dumb ideas like "Warframe is fair"... "warframe is games as a service done right"

The game is just as predatory as everything else, the only difference is that they do not put the good shit behind difficult content that only payers can beat... they make it available for everyone but the content is nothing but some boring meaningless soul taking dumb low drop chance "farm this to allow you to farm that" tasks... Only backpack warriors(people that don't play, they just go along others and leech, Warframe is 85% of this type of players) enjoy this kind of crap.

Games as a service + loot NOWDAYS are purely an excuse to build daunting repetitive gaming mechanics and then charging you real money to "skip" it... They even destroyed my once beloved WoW with this crap design...

The sad thing about all of this is that retards have the audacity to say that "pay to skip is not that bad".

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Most of the complaints I am reading here are generalizations. Hardly anyone here seems to have played them, mostly I think.

I recently downloaded Fortnite after it was praised to have done excellent ray tracing on Series S. Just to check out how it looked.

And guess what? Game is nothing like it's explained here. It feels more like humble bundle, rather than designed to extract maximum amount of money from you.

I enjoyed the experience so much, that I felt obligated to support the game by purchasing battle pass. And guess what? It was cheap. And it refunded all the digital currency I paid to get it. So I can get the next one without spending a dime. How cool is that?

Only way it felt overly expensive is when you want to buy something that's not on battlepass.

 

[Raven117]

I can’t fucking do the grind anymore. I just can’t

 

[ByWatterson]

Because they're a job and games are supposed to be entertainment.

 

[Robb]

They feel predatory in their design.

It doesn’t feel like most games needed to be GAAS games at all, the only reason they are is because the devs/publishers had dollar signs in their eye sockets.

 

[ahtlas7]

Same basic reason, as others have iterated above, that most mobile games suck.

 

[March Climber]

Because everything is taking elements from them. The moment certain RPG elements were successfully implemented in genres they didn't it was all downhill from there. I remember years ago when it took 4 hours to unlock the move arsenal in Mirrors Edge Catalyst that were literally available to you the moment you touched a controller in the original.

“Mirror’s Edge Metroidvania” probably sounded incredible in the pitch meeting(and to be honest it still does). Then they just made bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. Mirror’s Edge Catalyst’s issue is much larger than this thread’s topic and might even be unrelated to it when I think further on it.

1) Locking basic parkour moves up, instead of creating new tech for Faith to use to enhance the already-good parkour from the first game and make it flow even better. Simple idea that everyone on the team didn’t think of.

2) Making the level design constantly fight the player and present roadblocks, instead of enhancing the flow of parkour and letting you sequence break if you were good enough. Travesty what we ended up with.

3) Not making the combat more engaging and instead it ends up slightly less frustrating than the first game. You’d think the weakest point of the first game would be the first thing to be critically looked at. Or, better yet, make it less about combat and more about the level itself being the challenge, like old Tomb Raider games.

4) The story somehow being less impactful that the original, even though the set pieces were more bombastic. It felt like one of the worst Milla Jojovich Resident Evil movies (The second one with Jill) where you eventually stop caring about every single character halfway through and your eyes start to glaze over at the explosions and chases.

ME: Catalyst is one of my most disappointing sequels(or reboot, whatever) of all time, because it’s just such middle of the road nothing burger of a game. It shouldn’t even get the honor of being mentioned in this thread because the other games people are listing actually evoke some feelings within people, whether like or hate. Some are even torn on certain titles mentioned due to that.

ME: Catalyst just makes a person feel apathetic instead. And that’s sad.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

The only valid reason that I can think of is that it kinda became a modern gravy train. Publishers ran that shit into the ground by tring to jump on the bandwagon with progressively shittier games that prioritized monetizing the experience with little effort put into actual gameplay or content. In that regard, yeah, fuck those games.

But whenever I see people talk about them, it's like an universal hatred for every game in that "genre", even though there are some that are actually good and provide highly addictive gameplay with regular content updates and active communities. I actually don't mind those types of games if done right. I can grind for hours if it's fun to play and it doesn't try to vacuum cash out of my ass wallet, nahmean?

Warframe is probably the most frequently mentioned example of how to do a game like this correctly but there are plenty of others that I've sunk a ridiculous amount of hours into over the years so it's not all bad.

Because it’s designed as an endless loop where it becomes a second job trying to keep up with progression and all the content updates. Same as raiding in WoW before they introduced LFR.
Why do you want to work and not get paid?

People really need to learn to value the most precious thing they have - time.

 

[Rush2112]

She used to be hot. Now those titties are sagging.

 

[killatopak]

Not gonna say I didn’t enjoy some of them but it really is because of progression.

As long as any and all monetized functions are locked to just cosmetics then I am interested in it.

I don’t think I’ll ever enjoy something that I worked long hours for someone else to just achieve with a credit card. I play games to escape reality, not be dragged down by it.

I think the longest live service games I have played were Diablo 2, Ragnarok Online(before it became f2p), MU online, 02 Jam, Dota and League of Legends. Easily at minimum 2000 hours on any of them.

 

[Sensates]

Gaas is shite but I still like my loot.... Diablo and BL2.
I guess the Gaas trend is why we aint getting good loot games... hmm

 

[TonyK]

Personally, and I know how those games are developed, my problem is that they are created around the economy. They are not games with an added economy system, they are economic systems disguised with a game mechanic. So everything: pacing, design choices, progress, interactions... everything is designed to fuck your dopaminergic system not for you enjoyment, but with the goal of making you spend money at long term. Even if they are shooters, for example, they have more in common with Tik Tok than with Dishonored.

 

[samoilaaa]

because live servies games are designed to keep the player addicted with very shallow features , i like to play games that have a good story , good level design and environmental storytelling , you wont find these in a gaas

 

[Ozzie666]

Back in my day, games were released in a complete state. Anyhow,

GAAS games have warped how young people see gaming now. They have been socially engineered into expecting GAAS and all the extra costs microtransactions bring. It's trickled into full price games that have no business doing it. It's a cancer and a corruption. Nothing but increasing profits for the developers and the hardware manufactures. It's money they can't give up now. Battle pass and cosmetics are terrible.

Companies want that easy evergreen win. We gamers let it happen.

I love Diablo, which I am aware works on my brain for consistent easy rewards and now has a battle pass. But kids are being worked the same exact way in a similar fashion. Let's not even discuss the pressure of FOMO and temporary skins/looks available for a limited time. The pressure in kids' groups is disgusting. Burn it all down.

Gaming creativity has been ruined by greedy shareholders and overpaid American executives, huge profits are king.

 

[mxbison]

Standalone game development: Try and make the game as good as possible

Live service game development: Try and make the players spend as much as possible

 

[CGNoire]

They've taken over the industry and caniballized all other forms of multiplayer game. many of the tactics used to monetize them are predatory and ripped straight out of mobile games, and unlike many multiplayer games they have an expiration date since you can't host your own servers. to top it off many studios known for making great singleplayer games have shifted to live service thanks to the success of games like fortnite and apex.

So well put....and where done here.

 

[CGNoire]

“Mirror’s Edge Metroidvania” probably sounded incredible in the pitch meeting(and to be honest it still does). Then they just made bad decision after bad decision after bad decision. Mirror’s Edge Catalyst’s issue is much larger than this thread’s topic and might even be unrelated to it when I think further on it.

1) Locking basic parkour moves up, instead of creating new tech for Faith to use to enhance the already-good parkour from the first game and make it flow even better. Simple idea that everyone on the team didn’t think of.

2) Making the level design constantly fight the player and present roadblocks, instead of enhancing the flow of parkour and letting you sequence break if you were good enough. Travesty what we ended up with.

3) Not making the combat more engaging and instead it ends up slightly less frustrating than the first game. You’d think the weakest point of the first game would be the first thing to be critically looked at. Or, better yet, make it less about combat and more about the level itself being the challenge, like old Tomb Raider games.

4) The story somehow being less impactful that the original, even though the set pieces were more bombastic. It felt like one of the worst Milla Jojovich Resident Evil movies (The second one with Jill) where you eventually stop caring about every single character halfway through and your eyes start to glaze over at the explosions and chases.

ME: Catalyst is one of my most disappointing sequels(or reboot, whatever) of all time, because it’s just such middle of the road nothing burger of a game. It shouldn’t even get the honor of being mentioned in this thread because the other games people are listing actually evoke some feelings within people, whether like or hate. Some are even torn on certain titles mentioned due to that.

ME: Catalyst just makes a person feel apathetic instead. And that’s sad.

Dont get me started on the gutted building of momentum when starting to sprint being gutted. Movement felt super floaty like a fps. Destroyed what was unique about it.

 

[10101]

For me it really boils down to this:

- I hate grinding the same shit over and over.
- I can’t fucking stand bullet sponge enemies.
- I couldn’t care less if I have a rare skin or look the same as everyone else.

I like MP games with my mates, but live service stuff usually includes one or more of the above. Also not paying extra for crap in a £70 game, ever

 

[Josemayuste]

Because player progression is not tied to in-game mechanics, it is tied to in-game purchases instead.

 

[MH3M3D]

I generally don't like games without a beginning, middle and end. The "Live" in Live Service generally means that its ongoing. I like stong and impactful endings to games.

 

[sertopico]

GAASlighting pure and simple.

 

[winjer]

Exploitative game mechanics that lure gamers into spending real money in micro-transactions.
Grindy gameplay. Lot's of filler to pad game time.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Because they're basically games disguised as skinner boxes.

 

[Drizzlehell]

Because it’s designed as an endless loop where it becomes a second job trying to keep up with progression and all the content updates. Same as raiding in WoW before they introduced LFR.
Why do you want to work and not get paid?

People really need to learn to value the most precious thing they have - time.

I get the sense that people who make those types of complaints very rarely - if ever - attempted to play those games. And I mean real earnest attempts and not just going into them once with preconceived notions and immediately dropping them as soon as those surface-level biases were confirmed.

Thing is, nobody is FORCING you to make it a second job by grinding it endlessly, to spend money on cosmetics, or to do anything you don't want to. You can just put the game on, blast some enemies for a while and get on with your day. And looter games specifically are good at providing that instant gratification by having more action oriented gameplay that also separates them from more drawn out, grindy feeling MMORPGs.

I often think back on the days where we would spend like 8-10 hours a day playing games like Unreal Tournament or Quake with my friends because it was just fun blasting each other apart in those short, intense bursts. It's the same basic principle with looter shooters, except this time there are at least some goals to work towards, even if it takes a while to get there, plus at least I have something to show for it after the fact, instead of just vague memories of deathmatches in games that can't even be played anymore.

You could argue about the morality of preying on the kind of people who are susceptible to gambling addictions and such. But that's basically just rehashing an argument that you heard someone else talk about in a video or in an article and trying to have an educated opinion, even though you never had to face that kind of temptation yourself, nor have most people around here.

Most of the complaints I am reading here are generalizations. Hardly anyone here seems to have played them, mostly I think.

EXACTLY. Hit the nail right on the head.