Support NeoGAF

[Enygger_Tzu]

Quote me where I said it does.

I am asking you, does it? Do you have a problem with this scene or not?

 

[danielberg]

It’s not exactly a thing that people shy away from. It’s common knowledge amongst everybody. You can say they are of legal age all you like, or a 600 year old witch, or a 100 year old demon who drank some magical potion... None of that matters when they make her look like an 12 year old school girl.

You are missing my point and you do it deliberately at this point.
You do the exact same in realistic art style and its ok do it in anime art stlye and you get banned.
This without even speaking about that sex scenes in wrpgs are ok but in jrpgs get you banned do you get it now or do i have to send you a newsletter?

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Making the character 14 and engaging in a lesbian kiss with another 14 year old character does it, however?

(The Last of Us: Left behind)

No. It’s iffy ground to tread on. It’s not something I would actively search for.

However...

It’s about context. That 14 year old girl finding her sexuality in a none sexualised way. She’s portrayed as confused and searching for herself, and kisses in unsure way, once. There’s not full of snog, no clothes ripped off with convienetly placed camera angles to show just a hint of boob. It’s done in a dramatic way.

It’s a very stark contrast to LOUD SCREACHING VOICE LOOK AT MY TITS WOBBLE OH SHIT HERE COMES THE TENTICLES HAI HAI OH BO MY CLOTHES DONF FIT BETTER WEAR THIS TEDDY BEAR IVER MY NIPPLES WHILE I DO GYMNASTICS.

 

[Senior]

I seen no point in this discussion as the answer is very simple: video games are fiction.
If people cannot see the difference between reality and fictions then it's not up to the developers to address this.
Video games, just like other forms of art, can contain explicit imagery and that's absolutely fine because its fiction.
Having sexy designs in a video game does not make a sexual predator and I think people who are accusing video games of objectifying women can't seem to be able to see the difference.

Yeeeeeeah... making the character look 12 and saying "IT'S ACTUALLY A MOON CAT GODDESS A MILLION YEARS OLD" doesn't really fix the problem for me.

Making the character 14 and engaging in a lesbian kiss with another 14 year old character does it, however?
(The Last of Us: Left behind)

I think TLOU is a good example. Somehow its acceptable in TLOUS but as soon as you recreate the scene in a Japanese art style people lose their shit.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

You are missing my point and you do it deliberately at this point.
You do the exact same in realistic art style and its ok do it in anime art stlye and you get banned.
This without even speaking about that sex scenes in wrpgs are ok but in jrpgs get you banned do you get it now or do i have to send you a newsletter?

I’m quite clearly not the one missing the point, but feel free to send me the news letter.

They are two totally different scenes in different types of setup. They are apples and oranges. One is set up for drama, to shock the viewer and give an emotional response. It’s a one off event that’s done in a subtle and none crude way. The other is 200 hours of tit RPG stat juggling.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

It’s about context. That 14 year old girl finding her sexuality in a none sexualised way. She’s portrayed as confused and searching for herself, and kisses in unsure way, once. There’s not full of snog, no clothes ripped off with convienetly placed camera angles to show just a hint of boob. It’s done in a dramatic way.

Yes, the 14 year old girl finding her sexuality in a sexual way is good, the 16-22 year old girl/woman who also is depicted in a sexual way is bad because, oh, my sensitivities.

I believe they knew who the target audience of the 14 year old scene were! To claim otherwise is irresponsibility.

 

[danielberg]

The other is 200 hours of tit RPG stat juggling.

Finally at least some honesty behind the facade. Again do you think gta strip clubs will be banned or wrpg sex scense will be banned? You think mr witcher nailing some whore will be banned?
Of course not stop fooling yourself this crap is arbitrary and based on "muh anime evil".

 

[Fuz]

I am asking you, does it? Do you have a problem with this scene or not?

I don't. Because I don't think it sexualizes them. And I still have a problem with sexualized 12 year old girls in japanese games/comics/anime.


Edit: To be clear, I'm not calling for censorship. Far from it. At least if there's no nudity and/or sex involved. I just find it disgusting, on a personal level. And I can't tolerate the "IT'S ACTUALLY AN ADULT WHO LOOKS 12!" shitty type of excuse.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Yes, the 14 year old girl finding her sexuality in a sexual way is good, the 16-22 year old girl/woman who also is depicted in a sexual way is bad because, oh, my sensitivities.

I believe they knew who the target audience of the 14 year old scene were! To claim otherwise is irresponsibility.

The difference is quite obvious. One of these characters will likely have her tits covered by a belt, while wearing a school dress and making over sexualised noises. The other will be a normal looking girl.

How am I even having to explain this?!

 

[Saruhashi]

Problem is a lot of mentioned games and examples, especially on console releases, would belong to the equivalent of pulp magazines and comics.
Why waste so many resources analyzing this "filth"....
Do people go to the video store or book store complaining about obscene stuff nowadays?
Intellectual level hit rock bottom....

You've absolutely hit the nail on the head there.

I would point to the habit a lot of people have of just thinking of "video games" as a thing without any nuance, depth, different genres etc.

So "video games" have become trendy but as you say there is an equivalent of the "pulp" section in gaming.
So they are stuck between wanting to appear "cool" by being into "video games" and also wanting to distance themselves from stuff they personally don't like.

Other hobbies and interests don't have this problem so much. You can totally be into reading novels and never ever even pass comment on, or give any consideration to, Mills & Boon novels. Cos that's just not your thing so who cares.

For some reason certain people cannot do this with video games and I don't know why.

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 is a good example because it's such an inaccessible and weird game anyway. They systems are not really all that intuitive and you need to play on for a good few hours before the full scope of how you are meant to play the game is revealed.

Yet people who probably wouldn't be much into this game anyway are up in arms over the character designs.

I'm saying if someone's favourite game is Mario Kart and their best gaming memory is "playing Sonic the Hedgehog everyday after school" then why in the hell would they be remotely concerned about the character design in Bayonetta? It's like a completely different section of the "video game" medium.

 

[danielberg]

The difference is quite obvious. One of these characters will likely have her tits covered by a belt, while wearing a school dress and making over sexualised noises. The other will be a normal looking girl.

How am I even having to explain this?!

explain why sex scenes in wrpg are ok but not in jrpgs anything else you say next is basically bullshit avoidance.
Again mr witcher nailing some "women of the night" is ok do it in anime style and its a ban explain that.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

The difference is quite obvious. One of these characters will likely have her tits covered by a belt, while wearing a school dress and making over sexualised noises. The other will be a normal looking girl.

How am I even having to explain this?!

The sexualization is the same. Just because one is snidely does not excuse them. And the fact that they had not the guts and gal to be upfront with it but instead they hided it behind a DLC piece makes their intentions 100% clear.

As a matter of fact, a lot of predators stalk FB pages for underage children in their normal/school attires.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Finally at least some honesty behind the facade. Again do you think gta strip clubs will be banned or wrpg sex scense will be banned? You think mr witcher nailing some whore will be banned?
Of course not stop fooling yourself this crap is arbitrary and based on "muh anime evil".

I fucking LOVE rpgs from both sides so your point t is daft.

But again, one is a strip club scene that’s set up as a mature area, in a mature game, showing female models of an OBVIOUS age which is appropriate. The other, shows doll like underage looking women, where they can say whatever age you want, they still look it.

It’s the same as searching for porn and looking for women who look under age. It may say 21 on her id, but man, you’re jacking it to somebody who looks like a kid.

Now I’m not saying people play these games to jack it, not at all. But you’re comparing two vastly different visual styles in vastly different situations that are not comparible.

If a woman takes her top off in an 18 rated film, you don’t bat an eye lid. If our young hero’s sister kisses a girl in the lips in our tv, you don’t bat an eye lid.

Now, if you make these characters look like they are underage, while at the same time upping the sexuality on these characters, dressing them in a sexual way, giving them none mature voices etc... then it crosses the line.

I’m all for all forms of entertainment that’s legal, yes including what japan etc had to offer. It’s up to the viewer to make the decision that “hey this girl is old enough it’s ok”. But you can’t just sit there and NOT see that a 21 year old 4 foot tall girl with the voice of a 8 year old holding a teddy with tots bigger than my Nan at Christmas jumping up and down with them totally ignoring the laws of physics is pushing it.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

explain why sex scenes in wrpg are ok but not in jrpgs anything else you say next is basically bullshit avoidance.
Again mr witcher nailing some "women of the night" is ok do it in anime style and its a ban explain that.

My last post here because it’s quite clear I won’t win this.

But if you REALLY can’t see the differences, you need to take a seat over there. Because one of them is modelled on a mature actress, the other is modelled on the ideal Japanese female form, which is a very young looking girl.

 

[danielberg]

My last post here because it’s quite clear I won’t win this.

But if you REALLY can’t see the differences, you need to take a seat over there. Because one of them is modelled on a mature actress, the other is modelled on the ideal Japanese female form, which is a very young looking girl.

Yeah but you painted a bullshit picture because its your only way out, again sony has now censored anime characters meaning a unrealistic art style and censored characters with double Ds no less so not anything you described that is my point, you do same in a realistic art style in a big aaa western rpg game and there is no issue.
Its completely arbitrary and bullshit because of it and i bet actual real life money that sony wont censor strip clubs in the next gta, the entire thing is based on bullshit and they would never do it with big games because money is still more important than appeasing bullshit. But this thread isnt about sonys new bullshit direction and i only called you out because you directly attacked japanese developers and in light of recent developments i had to jump in, but i get it anime has a lot of baggage, so i agree to disagree.

 

[lock2k]

It’s not exactly a thing that people shy away from. It’s common knowledge amongst everybody. You can say they are of legal age all you like, or a 600 year old witch, or a 100 year old demon who drank some magical potion... None of that matters when they make her look like an 12 year old school girl.

Look, Japan is a very old school type development environment. They make good shit. But let’s not beat around the under age bush here, they are also one of the most perverted places when it comes to making things overly sexual.

This isn’t a taboo subject or something people don’t think or say... it’s common knowledge. They love a certain look and feel to their games. But that look doesn’t gel with the rest of the world. Works the same the other way around either, they don’t want dude bro shooters like we do.

You can't speak for the whole western civilization. Generalizations are stupid. Individuals have unique tastes and there are plenty of people in the west who likes japanese games and art just as they are. You can also find Japanese fans of dudebro games.

 

[petran79]

I fucking LOVE rpgs from both sides so your point t is daft.

But again, one is a strip club scene that’s set up as a mature area, in a mature game, showing female models of an OBVIOUS age which is appropriate. The other, shows doll like underage looking women, where they can say whatever age you want, they still look it.

It’s the same as searching for porn and looking for women who look under age. It may say 21 on her id, but man, you’re jacking it to somebody who looks like a kid.

Now I’m not saying people play these games to jack it, not at all. But you’re comparing two vastly different visual styles in vastly different situations that are not comparible.

If a woman takes her top off in an 18 rated film, you don’t bat an eye lid. If our young hero’s sister kisses a girl in the lips in our tv, you don’t bat an eye lid.

Now, if you make these characters look like they are underage, while at the same time upping the sexuality on these characters, dressing them in a sexual way, giving them none mature voices etc... then it crosses the line.

I’m all for all forms of entertainment that’s legal, yes including what japan etc had to offer. It’s up to the viewer to make the decision that “hey this girl is old enough it’s ok”. But you can’t just sit there and NOT see that a 21 year old 4 foot tall girl with the voice of a 8 year old holding a teddy with tots bigger than my Nan at Christmas jumping up and down with them totally ignoring the laws of physics is pushing it.

Difference is those 12 year old (fictional game age, not graphical assets age) video game models are voiced by adult voice actresses, not kids.
It is also very likely that those same voice actresses will lend their voice to the next family friendly Ghibili film or blockbuster anime series. Fortunately voice actors are left in peace (for the time being)

 

[danielberg]

You can't speak for the whole western civilization. Generalizations are stupid. Individuals have unique tastes and there are plenty of people in the west who likes japanese games and art just as they are. You can also find Japanese fans of dudebro games.

His description is a cop out anyway when you have the developers of catherine coming out stating they go as far as they can under sonys new censorship rules its basically already eye rolling, a puzzle game with a story about some dude being torn between his long time girlfriend and another chick with a hand full of sex scenes that are already censored by the TV and only teased at and the dev has to tip toe around but on the other side of the ocean you have bioware, cd project and rockstar and everyone expects their games to have some sex scenes and they dont even have to think about sonys policy.
Rdr literally has a more graphic sex scene than anything in Catherine but its not a issue lol

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Yeeeeeeah... making the character look 12 and saying "IT'S ACTUALLY A MOON CAT GODDESS A MILLION YEARS OLD" doesn't really fix the problem for me.

Naked age regressed Polnareff didn't do it for you?

 

[Sacred]

Video games are about playing out your fantasies, not being grounded in reality.

 

[Wunray]

Yeeeeeeah... making the character look 12 and saying "IT'S ACTUALLY A MOON CAT GODDESS A MILLION YEARS OLD" doesn't really fix the problem for me.

This shit grinds my gears. I hate it when they do that

 

[bhunachicken]

Something I found really odd was seeing some complaining about Aloy's hip sway* in Zero Dawn and saying it was only in there to attract the male gaze.

Don't know about anyone else, but I found her hip sway sexy as hell.

* - you need to make her walk, not run.

 

[OverIt]

Well, I seem to notice that your ignorance hits astronomical levels, does your "game development" career is tied with Kotaku, IGN or Polygon? Because I am sure only then you would claim to work in the vg industry and still hold those views.

So, about the bolded, it's common knowledge to whom exactly? To what exactly?
And it does not gel with who exactly? Or are you speaking for the rest of us?

I think it is standard belief in US and European dev environments,

 

[Shai-Tan]

I think it's good if more thought is put into characters. There is room for idealized female characters, even from a male perspective but some of those designs are more immature or misogynistic than others. I finished Metro Last Light recently and it's striking how the only few female characters are a sniper who is a barbie doll, strippers, and rape victims. There's some old women models (with no dialogue) but anything remotely fuckable is sexualized in an awkward way.

 

[manfestival]

It's a free market. Let the market decide what is good and not. After all, this is why we have 100 BR clones and more in the works. It is nice for some people that want certain things to have them in their games on their niche appeal. The titles can sink or swim on their own merit.

If they live they live, if they die..... THEY DIE

 

[Dr. Claus]

You can't speak for the whole western civilization. Generalizations are stupid. Individuals have unique tastes and there are plenty of people in the west who likes japanese games and art just as they are. You can also find Japanese fans of dudebro games.

The user has a strong bias and nothing you say or do will change their mind. They came in hating on japanese games and completely lack any and all understanding of the greater world (and more importantly the asian markets and their cultures). Just ignore them and move on.

His description is a cop out anyway when you have the developers of catherine coming out stating they go as far as they can under sonys new censorship rules its basically already eye rolling, a puzzle game with a story about some dude being torn between his long time girlfriend and another chick with a hand full of sex scenes that are already censored by the TV and only teased at and the dev has to tip toe around but on the other side of the ocean you have bioware, cd project and rockstar and everyone expects their games to have some sex scenes and they dont even have to think about sonys policy.
Rdr literally has a more graphic sex scene than anything in Catherine but its not a issue lol

Got to love that ignorant American/British mindset. 16 y/o's in provocative clothing in a cartoon art style? Man, we gotta ban that shit immediately and continuously refer to them as 12 y/o's in a disingenuous manner! 14 year old lesbians kissing each other in a zombie apocalypse filled with grisly murders and a realistic art direction? Shit is art. 10/10, game of the year.

That isn't even mentioning the tremendous amount of titles that involve murder, blood, and glorification of violence - but the moment we have 16-18 year old anime girls in "provocative" (read, non-puritan clothing), it becomes a major issue.

 

[Danjin44]

As long as it hyper realistic graphics, everything and anything is fine but anime art style!? That needs to get censored.

 

[RedVIper]

I think it's good if more thought is put into characters. There is room for idealized female characters, even from a male perspective but some of those designs are more immature or misogynistic than others. I finished Metro Last Light recently and it's striking how the only few female characters are a sniper who is a barbie doll, strippers, and rape victims. There's some old women models (with no dialogue) but anything remotely fuckable is sexualized in an awkward way.

I'm pretty sure the depiction of woman in Metro:LL is intentional, you go trough both nazi and communist territory, I think the way women are shown in the game is for world building purposes and not because the developers are themselves sexist in any way.

The sex scene with Anna was a bit eye rolly but more for being a shitty plot device than anything else.

 

[The Chairman]

The thread title should be changed to "why beta men think that some women criticize sexualized character designs" because thats exactly what is going on in this thread. im not seeing any woman here criticizing anything, only dudes crying about these dangerous sexy anime titties.

 

[Cactuarman]

Hope you're not upset. I saw how people were treated at the purple forum and I really don't want to get banned .

I mentioned in my post that all this sexuality in games is some what a flavor. As in flavor of ice cream. a preference in the way you like you're women. Why is it that men who enjoy these things shamed for liking these things. Why can you not have a preference. The videogame market is capitalizing on what the "majority" of men enjoy. Men is the majority of the people buying most of these core games.

"ugly feminist"
It just seem from my point of view that less attractive women are very vocal on this subject. While attractive women dont even know there is a problem. I mentioned Mila kunis and WOW because Kunis is found attractive by most men. WoW has sexualized ( less armor is better trope) for female characters in that game. But when she metioned she played the game and the fact that she was a gamer she never mentioned any thing about over sexulalition and that it was a problem with our society.
When Felicia Day came on the scene with the little show the Guild. Was there any mention of over sexualiztion in games?
Olivia Muun was on a videogame show and i did not hear anything about characters being to sexy or that fact being uncomfortable to play games. Maybe they got on boat later on in theyre career ...

conjecture: an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. I had to look it up : >
All that I type was my opinion. I didnt provide any source. No thesis . I posted about what I observed. Checking social media, FB Twitter, Instagram. If you go to the main search/display i dont see any major uproard, memes or hastags about sexuality in games and how its a spit in women face. Granted these pages are catrered to what you previoulsy liked (mine social is geard at art, drawing, games).

"instead they want to open a dialogue on tropes, representation, and, games starring more unconventional character types/designs."The dialogue has been started, and developers even listened there has been stride made to make characters non sexulized whether it was in

animation
Steven Universe
She-Ra 2018

or games.
Celeste
Chick in new Assassin Creed
Lara Croft (new)
Nora

So... yea some gamers feel .. dare i say it feel attacked. Sony new censor force. Feminist even though being a small group is being very loud about the "sexualization in games". Things are changing. Even though there are Games like Horizon Zero Dawn . An excellent game. It isnt enough for some people. As not only game industry is introduction "strong females" they have to remove the eye candy that is the entertainment for others.

Yeah, some gamers feel attacked. I certainly don't feel attacked because of Celeste, the ability to play as female in Assassin's Creed, the new Lara Croft, and Nora. Nor do I feel like the existence of Steven Universe or She-Ra 2018 is somehow interfering with anything I care about. If these things are successful then there is obviously a desire for them, regardless of how I feel.

I guess I don't agree that the existence of Horizon or "strong females" means that you're losing your eye candy. It kind of seems like we mostly have both now, that's my observation anyway. And for all you know the people who made Horizon or who want more strong females as main characters may also like eye candy games too.

If you don't like Sony's censorship, which is fair, then vote with your wallet. That's what I do. But let's not conflate the idea that some wanting "strong females" in games (me) ALSO want to suppress eye candy games (definitely not me). A lot of us like both of these things.

Because that's more than likely going to be the shape the solution to these issues is going to take. Or do you have a suggestion as to how we could deal with content existing that a certain group hates to the point they want to reduce its prevalence as much as possible?

That group will always exist. Different groups, however, may fall within some kind of spectrum. That's my point.

If someone doesn't like violence in video games, what do you counter that with? My strategy would be to figure out why. And if they are even willing to discuss. If they just want to preach like those religious people I pass going into comic con then you can just ignore. But if they actually want to discuss then you can start a dialogue.

The way I see it, there is no compromise to be made. Either you like or just don't mind sexualized characters, or you dislike 'em and they need to go. There is no in between and no discussion to be had. That's why these types of threads are circle jerks. The same is true for the ResetEra thread, just the opposite way. There's no discussion going on there either. The real question is: Are you complaing to them too?

What I'm trying to get at is that there is a difference between people who say "I don't like Ivy's breasts BUT I don't want to remove that content from existence" vs "I want to remove that content from exist". I would agree that there is no compromise with the latter group. And you don't have to agree with the former group but that conversation may be interesting to have. That's all I'm saying.

Also, that's not the "real" question. I'm not the forum police. I'm on this forum because I want to be here and have this discussion here. I don't need to present the same idea to a different forum in order to prove which forum is better/worse or that I'm fair or something.

I am not so sure, as I said, all people want power. In the beginning when you don't have power it is "let's just have a little dialogue" - and the more power you get the more fun it gets

Are you suggesting that this group looking to censor content has enough power that it's fun for them? So they continue to censor? I'm not sure I follow.

Edit: Typo and clarification

 

[Shai-Tan]

I'm pretty sure the depiction of woman in Metro:LL is intentional, you go trough both nazi and communist territory, I think the way women are shown in the game is for world building purposes and not because the developers are themselves sexist in any way.

The sex scene with Anna was a bit eye rolly but more for being a shitty plot device than anything else.

even if that were true about the intent behind it the way they handle it is juvenile. I don't want to single them out too much considering the strength of the game is the environments not the awful dialogue or themes drawn from bad 80s action movies

edit:

https://www.mweb.co.za/games/view/t...d-the-objectification-of-the-female-body.aspx

 

[Cactuarman]

And the problem to be had with the side that keeps raising the issue is that they don't seem to want to meet the bare minimum requirements for a rational debate, such as defining sexualization, stating why it's [allegedly] morally reprehensible and identifying its [alleged] signs.

Inconsistent usage and identification of sexualization kind of gets at what I'm talking about - which is that there are different groups talking about this with different limits on what is "reprehensible". I remember this type of discussion around violence. And "raising the issue" can mean different things. Are they raising the issue because they want it banned? Or are they raising the issue because they thing we can do better in terms of variety? My guess is that different people have different answers.

Because they act as though their position is self-evident and as such are excused from arguing their case, their stance should be met with civilized contempt, until, that is, they show the will to engage in rational debate.

I guess you've only really had this discussion with people who were irrational? In which case yeah, don't engage with them because there is no point. But I'm here, let's have a rational debate.

I like fanservice and DOA Xtreme. I also like that we have Ellie and Aloy. I don't like censorship. And I think that voting with your wallet is more powerful than noisy people online.

Pardon me, but the underlying yet never proven assumption behind the concept of sexualization is that, ultimately, sex is bad, lust is bad. Those are the cornerstones of the idea, without which it becomes instantly devoid of any real content and leverage. And if lust were indeed morally reproachable, the holder of the lustful eyes, the proverbial male gamer, would be inviting reproach upon himself, wouldn't he?

You're conflating things. Sexualization doesn't mean that sex or lust is bad in an of itself. In this context the issue is the prevalence of sexual objectification. If someone is using the term wrong then either educate them or don't engage.

They want to start a conversation, but can't even define their terms? Their basic thesis? Their basic argument? Present the supporting data?
Some dialogue.

Again, if you're arguing with people who can't define their terms then just move on.

Me, I'll start the discussion by denouncing the notion of representation in fiction as fraudulent. It's up to the people who bring it up constantly to establish that a fictional character is not simply a metaphor created for specific storytelling purposes but instead, lo and behold, should be read as a representative of real-life groups numbering in the billions, people all grouped together by virtue of one arbitrary characteristic. Representation is intersectionality applied to fiction and the result is no more serious, no more accurate or truthful than usual.

I would argue that if you're already being represented, and have plenty of options, then you really can't say what it would mean to someone to not be represented. If a minority group says "I'd sure like to read about a [minority] superhero" then what is the response you'd give them? "You shouldn't care about that because you're focused on an arbitrary characteristic that doesn't impact the story".

Who are you to say that someone shouldn't want that? I'm sure plenty of minorities consume all kinds of fiction with various main characters, but if someone said "yeah I read about plenty of straight, white guys, but an occasional gay black women would be nice" I guess I don't see an issue if someone wants to make that comic.

 

[RedVIper]

even if that were true about the intent behind it the way they handle it is juvenile. I don't want to single them out too much considering the strength of the game is the environments not the awful dialogue or themes drawn from bad 80s action movies

edit:

https://www.mweb.co.za/games/view/t...d-the-objectification-of-the-female-body.aspx

You'll have to forgive me if I don't take Kotaku or Polygon commentary very seriously, but even they admit that a post apocalyptic world would most likely be unfair to women, they simply dislike that that is the case and the game portrays is as so.

I would argue that if you're already being represented, and have plenty of options, then you really can't say what it would mean to someone to not be represented. If a minority group says "I'd sure like to read about a [minority] superhero" then what is the response you'd give them? "You shouldn't care about that because you're focused on an arbitrary characteristic that doesn't impact the story".

Who are you to say that someone shouldn't want that? I'm sure plenty of minorities consume all kinds of fiction with various main characters, but if someone said "yeah I read about plenty of straight, white guys, but an occasional gay black women would be nice" I guess I don't see an issue if someone wants to make that comic.

There's no issue if they want to make that comic, there's an issue when they want to force everyone else around them to want to have that comic made and/or change things other people like to fit what they like. Forcing the majority to accept what a loud minority wants is kinda ridiculous but happens all the time.

 

[Dr. Claus]

even if that were true about the intent behind it the way they handle it is juvenile. I don't want to single them out too much considering the strength of the game is the environments not the awful dialogue or themes drawn from bad 80s action movies

edit:

https://www.mweb.co.za/games/view/t...d-the-objectification-of-the-female-body.aspx

Kotaku and Polygon are the most biased sources you could get.

 

[Dunki]

even if that were true about the intent behind it the way they handle it is juvenile. I don't want to single them out too much considering the strength of the game is the environments not the awful dialogue or themes drawn from bad 80s action movies

edit:

https://www.mweb.co.za/games/view/t...d-the-objectification-of-the-female-body.aspx

Why not? 80s aaction movies were the fucking best. If you want to create this nostalgic atmosphere and tropes etc you should be able to fucking do that. How about you just say it is not for me and move on? The market will decide if people want it or not. But Kotaku and co do not even just criticize these chices no they often also attack and villify everyone who buys these games

And honetly 80s action movies dialogue is well more rememerable then the PC fucking bullshit you often get in todays games like Andromeda. If you for example compare Andromeda with the Witcher one feels totally lifeless and artifical while everything in the world of the Witcher feels more real and memorable.

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

I would argue that if you're already being represented, and have plenty of options, then you really can't say what it would mean to someone to not be represented. If a minority group says "I'd sure like to read about a [minority] superhero" then what is the response you'd give them? "You shouldn't care about that because you're focused on an arbitrary characteristic that doesn't impact the story".

Forgive me for interjecting myself in the discussion, but this caught my eye and I wish to offer my prespective on it, if you don't mind.

I would answer them with: "That is great and novel, and all the more power to you and all the best and even my support on that endeavor, however, let me ask also; who is stopping you? Who is impeding you from creating your own stories, your own comics, your own games, your own fanservice, instead of:

1. Asking of me and others similar to me to do the same thing for you that I did for me and others like me instead of doing it yourself?

And

2.Wish to (a lesser extent) co-opt the creation and works of me and others similar to me be injecting your own standards, your own story twist, your own agenda, your own opinions, your own beliefs in it that may or may not be antithetical to mine and me, instead of like I mentioned create it your own?"

Because I think this is the problem, mostly, with the censorers (for lack of better word) and co-opters (also for lack of better word), they don't wish to start something from scratch, and create something for them and like-minding individuals, they wish to be handed the creative keys to the traditional and core valuable work, and getting access to it, pushing the original people, the original cast and the original meaning of the creation out in favour of their own.

And to me, this is unacceptable, to me this is not a creative process, it is at best a disruptive process and at worst a destructive process.

 

[lock2k]

Inconsistent usage and identification of sexualization kind of gets at what I'm talking about - which is that there are different groups talking about this with different limits on what is "reprehensible". I remember this type of discussion around violence. And "raising the issue" can mean different things. Are they raising the issue because they want it banned? Or are they raising the issue because they thing we can do better in terms of variety? My guess is that different people have different answers.



I guess you've only really had this discussion with people who were irrational? In which case yeah, don't engage with them because there is no point. But I'm here, let's have a rational debate.

I like fanservice and DOA Xtreme. I also like that we have Ellie and Aloy. I don't like censorship. And I think that voting with your wallet is more powerful than noisy people online.



You're conflating things. Sexualization doesn't mean that sex or lust is bad in an of itself. In this context the issue is the prevalence of sexual objectification. If someone is using the term wrong then either educate them or don't engage.



Again, if you're arguing with people who can't define their terms then just move on.



I would argue that if you're already being represented, and have plenty of options, then you really can't say what it would mean to someone to not be represented. If a minority group says "I'd sure like to read about a [minority] superhero" then what is the response you'd give them? "You shouldn't care about that because you're focused on an arbitrary characteristic that doesn't impact the story".

Who are you to say that someone shouldn't want that? I'm sure plenty of minorities consume all kinds of fiction with various main characters, but if someone said "yeah I read about plenty of straight, white guys, but an occasional gay black women would be nice" I guess I don't see an issue if someone wants to make that comic.

Some people don't give two fucks about representation.

My favorite characters are usually anthropomorphic animals, monsters, shit like that. Being represented is overrated as fuck. Fiction is cool because you can get to play with different creatures.

 

[CatCouch]

Forgive me for interjecting myself in the discussion, but this caught my eye and I wish to offer my prespective on it, if you don't mind.

I would answer them with: "That is great and novel, and all the more power to you and all the best and even my support on that endeavor, however, let me ask also; who is stopping you? Who is impeding you from creating your own stories, your own comics, your own games, your own fanservice, instead of:

1. Asking of me and others similar to me to do the same thing for you that I did for me and others like me instead of doing it yourself?

And

2.Wish to (a lesser extent) co-opt the creation and works of me and others similar to me be injecting your own standards, your own story twist, your own agenda, your own opinions, your own beliefs in it that may or may not be antithetical to mine and me, instead of like I mentioned create it your own?"

Because I think this is the problem, mostly, with the censorers (for lack of better word) and co-opters (also for lack of better word), they don't wish to start something from scratch, and create something for them and like-minding individuals, they wish to be handed the creative keys to the traditional and core valuable work, and getting access to it, pushing the original people, the original cast and the original meaning of the creation out in favour of their own.

And to me, this is unacceptable, to me this is not a creative process, it is at best a disruptive process and at worst a destructive process.

This is closer to my view. Making more games like Horizon or the Last of Us would be great! But people here have to see that there is a never ending attack on games with sexy art or fan service. The gaming press is a big part of this problem. They lean heavily towards the less tolerant side.

If the gaming press spent time telling people games can be for different audiences and had articles showcasing the anime, sexy games for the people who like them and had features for games that appealed to those who want different representation we would be in a better place. Instead, we get article after article about how offensive or damaging nearly every big game is. There's this division where I feel the gaming press pits different audiences against each other by arguing over who has to go, usually with articles claiming gamers are "entitled" or something along those lines.

Creating more games with inclusiveness in mind would be great! Censoring games and shouting down fans of Japanese games in all caps rants about how unacceptable they are is as far away from inclusive as one can get. These are completely separate issues that need to be kept apart.

The people who don't like sexy art need to understand that insulting and shouting at people who like them is not progressive. Trying to "win" a debate by framing these games as dangerous or bordering illegal is insulting. It's just intolerance which breeds more intolerance. You just end up with an opposition group who return the aggression against games like the Last of us and Dream Daddy. It's a sad cycle.

 

[Cactuarman]

Forgive me for interjecting myself in the discussion, but this caught my eye and I wish to offer my prespective on it, if you don't mind.

I would answer them with: "That is great and novel, and all the more power to you and all the best and even my support on that endeavor, however, let me ask also; who is stopping you? Who is impeding you from creating your own stories, your own comics, your own games, your own fanservice, instead of:

1. Asking of me and others similar to me to do the same thing for you that I did for me and others like me instead of doing it yourself?

And

2.Wish to (a lesser extent) co-opt the creation and works of me and others similar to me be injecting your own standards, your own story twist, your own agenda, your own opinions, your own beliefs in it that may or may not be antithetical to mine and me, instead of like I mentioned create it your own?"

Because I think this is the problem, mostly, with the censorers (for lack of better word) and co-opters (also for lack of better word), they don't wish to start something from scratch, and create something for them and like-minding individuals, they wish to be handed the creative keys to the traditional and core valuable work, and getting access to it, pushing the original people, the original cast and the original meaning of the creation out in favour of their own.

And to me, this is unacceptable, to me this is not a creative process, it is at best a disruptive process and at worst a destructive process.

No worries. I'm glad you jumped in. Honestly it sounds like we'd mostly agree on co-opting. I have mixed feelings on that personally.

You first point though ultimately gets into logistics a bit. Road blocks for creating something new exist across the board - sometimes the same road blocks (ability to create something, the cost of creating something, tools, etc.) or sometimes different road blocks (gate keepers within a certain industry, people in charge having different opinions, types of venues, etc). Though I will say we are in a pretty great time where putting out something unique and/or very personal is much easier than it used to be - That Dragon Cancer, Gone Home, Stardew Valley - so that's great. So yeah, we'd probably agree that we should be encouraging people to put out stuff that matters to them.

What I'm hoping you can clarity though is: "Asking of me and others similar to me to do the same thing for you that I did for me and others like me instead of doing it yourself?"

What are you being asked to do? And what did you do yourself that now you're having to do for others? Are you getting at content creation and what types of content you're now having to put out?

Just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

Some people don't give two fucks about representation.

My favorite characters are usually anthropomorphic animals, monsters, shit like that. Being represented is overrated as fuck. Fiction is cool because you can get to play with different creatures.

Okay. But some people do care.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Kotaku and Polygon are the most biased sources you could get.

Maybe address the content of what is written instead of hand waving about “bias” to avoid thinking, I had similar thoughts, written here before finding that commentary.

 

[InterMusketeer]

That group will always exist. Different groups, however, may fall within some kind of spectrum. That's my point.

Could you explain that spectrum? Give some examples of the gradients between "I'm fine with certain content existing" and "I'm not fine with certain content sexisting" ?

If someone doesn't like violence in video games, what do you counter that with? My strategy would be to figure out why. And if they are even willing to discuss. If they just want to preach like those religious people I pass going into comic con then you can just ignore. But if they actually want to discuss then you can start a dialogue.

I'm afraid I don't quite understand your hypothetical. If someone said to me they didn't like violent games I'd just do... nothing? I don't have to convince them of the greatness of violent games or whatever. There's plenty of violent games I don't like so I don't play 'em. Frankly, I don't think there's much of a discussion to be had in such a case.

What I'm trying to get at is that there is a difference between people who say "I don't like Ivy's breasts BUT I don't want to remove that content from existence" vs "I want to remove that content from exist". I would agree that there is no compromise with the latter group. And you don't have to agree with the former group but that conversation may be interesting to have. That's all I'm saying.

In my view, this discussion is only happening because people have expressed the desire for games to change in a big way. And that change would mean greatly reducing or even leaving behind aspects of games we currently enjoy. The people who didn't advocate for that change... There's nothing much to discuss with them.

Also, that's not the "real" question. I'm not the forum police. I'm on this forum because I want to be here and have this discussion here. I don't need to present the same idea to a different forum in order to prove which forum is better/worse or that I'm fair or something.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I remember you expressing your disappointment before with how discussions on controversial subjects are going on this forum, and I wonder if you do the same elsewhere. Maybe you just have a very high opinion on GAF and want its members to do even better?

 

[Enygger_Tzu]

What I'm hoping you can clarity though is: "Asking of me and others similar to me to do the same thing for you that I did for me and others like me instead of doing it yourself?"

What are you being asked to do? And what did you do yourself that now you're having to do for others? Are you getting at content creation and what types of content you're now having to put out?

Just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

I think I should have worded it better, so let me do that, please.

Also, I am an alpha playtester for a card game that will be released via kickstarter at around this Spring, but I can't tell more about it, my apologies.

What I meant with my statement is that when a creator or a creative team(s) create a medium, they usually have a specific group(s) in mind that target and cater to, now those people that I mentioned above, the censorers and co-opters don't wish to go through the process of creating something from scratch, they wish to be given creative direction of an ongoin/oblated creation, so they would shape it in their own way to cater to them, most often than not, in the distinct dismay of the intended/targeted audience.

People who created Go Home and Dream Daddy Simulator are creating their own venues. People who were given creative administration to Tomb Raider ever since the 00's co-opted a creation.

 

[Dunki]

Okay. But some people do care.

The question is is it worth to listen to these people or not. Right now it seems it is not. AKA Andromedaas huge example

 

[Shai-Tan]

Why not? 80s aaction movies were the fucking best. If you want to create this nostalgic atmosphere and tropes etc you should be able to fucking do that. How about you just say it is not for me and move on? The market will decide if people want it or not. But Kotaku and co do not even just criticize these chices no they often also attack and villify everyone who buys these games

And honetly 80s action movies dialogue is well more rememerable then the PC fucking bullshit you often get in todays games like Andromeda. If you for example compare Andromeda with the Witcher one feels totally lifeless and artifical while everything in the world of the Witcher feels more real and memorable.

I wrote “bad 80s action movies” i.e. clumsy use of cinematic language and tropes from 80s movies that are out of place in an atmosphereic shooter like Metro Last Light. I can see how if Metro 2033 is Alien, Last Light is trying to be Aliens but as a developer at that time they weren’t well equipped to tell a more human story and it shows in their treatment of the female characters i.e. immersion is broken when the world feels more like the product of a juvenile mind trying to mimic a genre they dont understand, than it does a lived in universe. The way the game is constructed the longest stop is a strip club, basically the pirates den or saloon of that universe. Unfortunately it’s one of the few instances you visit civilization. And the other stations not well developed enough to set up in contrast so women are mostly presented as one dimensional sex objects in the game.

By “80s movies” I wasn’t referring to larger than life, over the top characters killing hundreds of dudes while saying snappy one liners. As much as I like those movies there is a context for the tropes. That’s why some of the one man army action movie nonsense in Breaking Bad seemed out of place. Not that misogyny is central to male power fantasy movies but it has more of a place in that type of fantasy than it does in the Metro universe

 

[RedVIper]

I wrote “bad 80s action movies” i.e. clumsy use of cinematic language and tropes from 80s movies that are out of place in an atmosphereic shooter like Metro Last Light. I can see how if Metro 2033 is Alien, Last Light is trying to be Aliens but as a developer at that time they weren’t well equipped to tell a more human story and it shows in their treatment of the female characters i.e. immersion is broken when the world feels more like the product of a juvenile mind trying to mimic a genre they dont understand, than it does a lived in universe. The way the game is constructed the longest stop is a strip club, basically the pirates den or saloon of that universe. Unfortunately it’s one of the few instances you visit civilization. And the other stations not well developed enough to set up in contrast so women are mostly presented as one dimensional sex objects in the game.

By “80s movies” I wasn’t referring to larger than life, over the top characters killing hundreds of dudes while saying snappy one liners. As much as I like those movies there is a context for the tropes. That’s why some of the one man army action movie nonsense in Breaking Bad seemed out of place. Not that misogyny is central to male power fantasy movies but it has more of a place in that type of fantasy than it does in the Metro universe

And I and others say that the way woman are represented in Metro is fine because it's part of the atmosphere, it shows that the setting those women are living in is oppressing. You're basicly saying developers should do things your way because you don't like the way they do it.

Okay. But some people do care.

And that's fine but they can't force everyone else to care aswell.

 

[Dunki]

I wrote “bad 80s action movies” i.e. clumsy use of cinematic language and tropes from 80s movies that are out of place in an atmosphereic shooter like Metro Last Light. I can see how if Metro 2033 is Alien, Last Light is trying to be Aliens but as a developer at that time they weren’t well equipped to tell a more human story and it shows in their treatment of the female characters i.e. immersion is broken when the world feels more like the product of a juvenile mind trying to mimic a genre they dont understand, than it does a lived in universe. The way the game is constructed the longest stop is a strip club, basically the pirates den or saloon of that universe. Unfortunately it’s one of the few instances you visit civilization. And the other stations not well developed enough to set up in contrast so women are mostly presented as one dimensional sex objects in the game.

By “80s movies” I wasn’t referring to larger than life, over the top characters killing hundreds of dudes while saying snappy one liners. As much as I like those movies there is a context for the tropes. That’s why some of the one man army action movie nonsense in Breaking Bad seemed out of place. Not that misogyny is central to male power fantasy movies but it has more of a place in that type of fantasy than it does in the Metro universe

Given how the world is total shit do you not believe that will happen? Do you not believe that things like sex, drugs etc becoming a real desireable good? Do you believe that people will bound together in such a szenario and help each other? Be respectful etc?. In such szenarios the last thing you will see is civil behaviour. So in fact I think it is way more realstic in terms of possibility it is a fucking rough world, this is exactly How I would imagine an apocaliptic setting.

Look how women in real life become basically trade good in war town countries. How women get abused, and yes also raped. In war torn countries women become exactly that. a piece of meat. And strong independant women would become non existend because of this. So no I do not think it is juvenile but rather a terrible realstic perspective of what would happen. And developers in eastern countries like CDred or the Metro guys want to have a way more realistic view on their world and setting. And in between the boring scenarios of strong independant female characters which by the way has become a fucking boring trope to me. such a realsitic and terrible setting is a breath of fresh air to me.

 

[Shai-Tan]

And I and others say that the way woman are represented in Metro is fine because it's part of the atmosphere, it shows that the setting those women are living in is oppressing. You're basicly saying developers should do things your way because you don't like the way they do it.

And that's fine but they can't force everyone else to care aswell.

I “don’t like the way they do it” because it’s poorly written not because it doesn’t fit the setting. I’m pretty sure in the original books there’s more of a vestige of civilization than a failed state like Syria, under ISIS. Part of the story is in the contrast between the stations and the areas outside.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Given how the world is total shit do you not believe that will happen? Do you not believe that things like sex, drugs etc becoming a real desireable good? Do you believe that people will bound together in such a szenario and help each other? Be respectful etc?. In such szenarios the last thing you will see is civil behaviour. So in fact I think it is way more realstic in terms of possibility it is a fucking rough world, this is exactly How I would imagine an apocaliptic setting.

Look how women in real life become basically trade good in war town countries. How women get abused, and yes also raped. In war torn countries women become exactly that. a piece of meat. And strong independant women would become non existend because of this. So no I do not think it is juvenile but rather a terrible realstic perspective of what would happen. And developers in eastern countries like CDred or the Metro guys want to have a way more realistic view on their world and setting. And in between the boring scenarios of strong independant female characters which by the way has become a fucking boring trope to me. such a realsitic and terrible setting is a breath of fresh air to me.

The so-called realism you’re admiring rings hollow when it’s dominated by one perspective and female characters only have a handful of lines. It’s a false dichotomy to suggest it’s either prostitutes/rape victims or independent strong female

 

[Dunki]

The so-called realism you’re admiring rings hollow when it’s dominated by one perspective and female characters only have a handful of lines. It’s a false dichotomy to suggest it’s either prostitutes/rape victims or independent strong female

No I am saying that it is a way more realsitic look at such a future. And right now we have this either or. more western developers have creating a fucking boring strong independent women character trope. while European/eastern developer have gone to a more realstic view in certain settings.

Meanwhile Japan does it right by creating a ton of diverse female characters that have tons of different personalities and still fall into popular tropes etc. I will say it again. beleive it or not but Japanese media has the most diverse and interesting female characters in the world. Yes many get sexualized like everything else in Japan does, women, men, animals, EVERYTHING. But in this sexualisationyou have personalities and also very deep and good written characters but also perfectly written for their targeted audience.

 

[RedVIper]

I “don’t like the way they do it” because it’s poorly written not because it doesn’t fit the setting. I’m pretty sure in the original books there’s more of a vestige of civilization than a failed state like Syria, under ISIS. Part of the story is in the contrast between the stations and the areas outside.

Yes you have more Factions in the books, but in the game we go trough the nazi faction and trough the communist faction, which are at war with each other. (And I think we make a stop at neutral faction).
Artyom itself is part of another neutral faction that lives outside the metro. Ok you don't like it, that's fine, that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.

"The so-called realism you’re admiring rings hollow when it’s dominated by one perspective and female characters only have a handful of lines. It’s a false dichotomy to suggest it’s either prostitutes/rape victims or independent strong female"

Yes the game is dominated by the main character prespective I agree.
You do have Anna which is a pretty important character in the game(And neither a prostitute or a rape victim), the game itself doesn't have that many important characters, it focuses on the world anyway and it does a fantastic job of it, its harsh and unforgiving.

If it really bothers you this much you can read other works set in the Metro universe that focus on a female protagonist.