milkybar1983
Member
the people who don't want them seem angrier than the people who do
interesting...
interesting...
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Why doesn't Wii U have system-wide achievements?
- Thread starter JaseMath
- Start date
Yes, a differing opinion = damage control.
lol of course. Why is that a bad thing though?
If you don't want it, turn it off. Turning off the notification will have an impact on ALL games. Why? Because it's system wide.
Just because you don't want it doesn't mean that no one should get them. Also, just because some devs have used achievements in bad ways doesn't mean that no dev should use them (or can use them in good ways). This is just another oversight added to the other oversights that will cause many gamers to not buy multiplatform games on the Wii U.
grimshawish
Banned
Which is exactly what that poster was doing with that gif.
So its odd I hear that as a 'pointed' comment.
How strange.
Thanks for your insightful contribution to the discussion.
goldenpp72
Member
This doesn't fly when the system people want is easy to implement and entirely simple to ignore for the few who actually hate it. It's more like trying to say we should remove the option for blu rays to play on an SD TV because I have an HD TV and so you should not be able to play them on an SD TV, this is not an argument of should a system have 4 face buttons and 4 shoulder, or 6 face and 2 shoulder, this is an option that makes some happy and can be entirely ignored by the rest.
Miiverse can do anything I'm sure, but if people fear developers botching up something so simple as achievements, what in the world could they hope Miiverse applications would lead to? Miiverse is just its own beast. In the case of Mario, it never actually marks you for doing something that matters, like beating a hard ass challenge in challenge mode. Collecting 3 star coins is not worth posting about. I feel like I'm one of the few people who have extensive use of both achievements and Miiverse, I suppose the Wii U having limited saturation is to blame for that, but people who haven't used it are probably not fully understanding what it is, and people who do, are giving it WAY more credit than it deserves in regards to how it can replace a universal achievement system. It's a social tool and it does that well, it does not take the place of an achievement system any better than saying kinect controls make up for not having pointer aiming.
Halo is notorious for having achievements that you can only earn in MP. Halo 3 had one where you had to get a triple kill with a sword. Another one in 4, I believe, requires the last kill of a match has to be with the Mantis. Point being, instead of trying to win, everyone is going to rush the sword or the Mantis. Everyone becomes focused on their own personal gain and not the team objective. It undermines the purpose of the game for something selfishly trivial.
Captain Smoker
Member
You realize that 90% of the current Wii U games have ingame achievements?
Projectjustice
Banned
You dont exit the game to begin with. I take it that you never used Miiverse.
Anyways, the difference is Im not getting 1000 points for completing the first stage of a game that no one sees or cares about. With Miiverse, I can take a screen shot of what I just did or something I just discovered or observed. Post it to Miiverse with a screen shot and comment. Start a conversation with others about what i just experienced or witness. Very very, different than some dumb pop up giving you points.
Oh and when you are done, you can go back to playing your game where you left off.
I saw it as him disagreeing that miiverse is a good replacement for trophies/achievements when IMO they each serve a different purpose. I didn't think he was dismissing miiverse as a whole like some are doing here with achievements and trophies. I'll never understand why anyone would defend the omission of a feature.
Haha, yep.
Heh, the defenders are doing much more than just stating a different opinion.
goldenpp72
Member
This is a good example of achievements being bad, as I have experienced this in games like Halo or Gears, but it is again a statement that should be made against the developer for a poor design decision. If the developer had taken the lazy route and simply not had any MP achievements, or made them all easy to gain on the normal path, this wouldn't be an issue. The developer instead managed to take the system, put actual thought into it and fuck it up big time. Is that more a shot against achievements or the developer? I say the developer should be blamed.
But again, that's where we differ. Miiverse is VERY appealing to the Nintendo community and people are on Miiverse all day posting screenshots of beating a level, beating a boss, beating the game (which is tagged on Miiverse to prove that you did) etc etc. Nintendo decided to try and focus more on the social side of achieving milestones in games, and that's great.
They came up with a very compelling alternative that A LOT of people enjoy. I don't think those experiences/opinions should be ignored just because people feel that everything across the industry needs to be standardized. Again, alternatives and different systems are okay to have...especially those as compelling as Miiverse.
friskykillface
Banned
heh wish it had achievements for games like NSMB wii u, i love collecting the 3 gold coins in each level but i wish it would reflect as a score or a Nintendo mark for my profile.
yes i know you can write messages and etc .
I would have also got 100% all of scribblenauts unlimited if there was an achievement, and playing through zombiu now, i like the uplay stuff.
I also agree that Microsoft and Sony should have a miiverse type thing next gen, for the people saying its pretty much a forum and nothing new, you have to see from a different perspective, not everyone is on a forum so its a huge thing to some people
also the drawings and help and communities are great.
yes i know you can write messages and etc .
I would have also got 100% all of scribblenauts unlimited if there was an achievement, and playing through zombiu now, i like the uplay stuff.
I also agree that Microsoft and Sony should have a miiverse type thing next gen, for the people saying its pretty much a forum and nothing new, you have to see from a different perspective, not everyone is on a forum so its a huge thing to some people
also the drawings and help and communities are great.
It pleases me a lot, in fact. That's the inclusion of system-wide achievements that bothers me ^_^
(I love achievements on a per-game basis, though. That's just the overall counter/list that bothers me, especially when you can't disable games in the list, reset it, or disable it completely)
Yes, I came into this thread to post exactly this. It really is great even in its infancy and I am extremely interested to see what features they add to it in the future.
Also, I love how friendly and helpful everyone is.
flyinpiranha
Member
And how is this the fault of the system and not the developer?
It seems more people are angry at developers doing achievements poorly than the system itself.
EDIT: It seems goldenpp72 and I are basically saying the same thing.
I think they should have both, Miiverse is a cool feature and a nice addition but so would system-wide achievements since it's just another thing to compare and go for in each game.
has been pointed several times in the thread... it's just that people choose to ignore that fact; I guess it's more fun to make a drama out of it.
Flame Lord
Member
Either way it's still more work than an achievement.
goldenpp72
Member
Having used Miiverse, this will only become harder and harder to see over time (assuming Nintendo doesn't erase them eventually). With 360, I can click your profile and scroll through every game YOU own, and see (to some extent) how far you got in each game without even having to click it. Is this feasible in Miiverse? The system seems much more cumbersome when thinking about years in the future. My history and achievements are to my knowledge, permanent, unless MS erases Xbox live as a whole.
Eteric Rice
Member
I'd prefer if they just added something to my MiiVerse to show my progress in various games. They could let devs add achievements here if they want as well.
grimshawish
Banned
He was disagreeing that the other consoles should have that feature.
I just said he misused the gif mostly because its not like the Miiverse is a terrible idea or hasn't worked in practise.
Personally I don't use achievements so its not really something that affects me.
It depends on the developer I suppose. As I say something like Skyrim shouldn't have the achievments it has - it becomes worthless.
I find the idea that achievements are make and break quite alien to me so guess I play with a different mind set from others.
I prefer having them in game; and I don't like having a gamerscore.
Steam probably does them well. OS level like Heavy was talking about earlier, but no specific score.
Its the gamerscore/trophies that affect the social infrastructure.
Am still not the biggest fan of achievements though. There are better ways to do them and as it is they're usually implemented lazily in many games.
Haunted
Member
See, if the WiiU had its own achievement system, you wouldn't have had to use the (now iconic, btw) 360 skin to make fun of this. Another missed opportunity for Nintendo.
This is why MP achievements are stupid and dumb.
I remember one shooter having an achievement for teamkills. Pretty funny (it was removed with a patch within days after the community backlash :lol).
It's because you and whoever else keeps bringing up are ignoring the argument which is it should be system-wide and not on a game basis.
I don't care if an individual game has it's own set, Nintendo should have implemented a system-wide system for achievements to go along with the Miiverse and it doesn't have to have numbers but be like how Steam has implemented achievements.
Problem is, you a universal system in place that facilitates poor, and simply lazy design like this. I'm okay with people wanting to earn achievements. But when that interrupts me, and how I want to play, there's a problem. Bungie and 343 for instance, called to understand that.
I get it, achievements are the evolution of the arcade high score. It enables social interaction between gamers online. Miiverse is just another take on it. At anytime, I can post a screen shot or doodle of what I've done in a game. From that point on, it's placed on my personal feed where all my friends and followers can see. What's great about that, is that I can share my status and my experience with others without interrupting them or without having to change how a game is played. It's passive yet very effective.
thecouncil
Banned
wiiu should have an achievement system. no doubt. doesnt matter if youd look at it or not, it should be there.
i will say that i dont think ive ever seen my trophies list on ps3 though, now thinking about it.
whenever i give it a try and it says i have to 'sync trophies' or something with a 'percentage complete' load screen popping up, i just laugh and back out of it.
and since im not allowed to sign in using my own profile with split screen co-op games, i cant even get half the trophies i should be getting when i play games with my brother.
nintendo's no-achievements-at-all concept is almost as useful as sony's trophies. unless im doing something wrong.
i will say that i dont think ive ever seen my trophies list on ps3 though, now thinking about it.
whenever i give it a try and it says i have to 'sync trophies' or something with a 'percentage complete' load screen popping up, i just laugh and back out of it.
and since im not allowed to sign in using my own profile with split screen co-op games, i cant even get half the trophies i should be getting when i play games with my brother.
nintendo's no-achievements-at-all concept is almost as useful as sony's trophies. unless im doing something wrong.
Flame Lord
Member
Do you really think people are going to care on Miiverse. You can use the same argument you keep using against achievements. "Oh you beat the first level? Whoppdie fuckin do."
And having to leave the game at all is dumb.
You can click on someones profile and see everything they have posted on miiverse, yes. The only thing you can't do is sort posts on that profile by game right now, but I'm sure its coming.
grimshawish
Banned
I think I've played a few games with that.
Doesn't Day of Defeat or something do that? Sort of an announcement your shit
----------------------------------------------------
I think the main thing I find I 'dislike' about have achievements is that social environment it creates on the console. The 'I only play games for trophies/points' does not appeal to me at all.
Whereas the Miiverse social environment really really does appeal to me.
goldenpp72
Member
All systems need time to grow, and a developer will make or break any feature. It sucks that in rare cases your experience can be harmed because of it, but it's like being racist, don't hate the community for what some person did, hate the person. I will argue up and down that 343 should be bitched at for harming their community for something stupid, but I would never say the system should not exist because of them.
Projectjustice
Banned
You should try Miiverse for yourself then.
You should try Miiverse for yourself then.
goldenpp72
Member
I can also click on your profile and see all your post, do you know how long it would take me to view all of one persons post, especially if you have years of history? It's much nicer to be able to break it down simply, or at least have the option to. Miiverse is a forum, but it's a forum that will exist for every single game, so eventually hundreds of forums to have to sift through to see what you may or may not have done. It's stupid to compare them to achievements. I could give you a link to my xbox profile right now and you could, within seconds, see all the games I have played in one tight small list, and if you care to the achievements, they are laid out nice and evenly too. Nothing to sift through, very little searching. It's not the same by a long shot, Miiverse does things achievements can't do, and I like it, but it should not replace achievements (and it won't, not on any other platform)
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
I love the system tied with miiverse they have now. Then only thing I dont like is that I dont seem to find in people profiles what games they have in their collection, if it exists I dont know how to enter it lol
Mario does have achivements (internal of course), and you can add them to the miiverse as messages if you want, and they appear in random and your friend's game map.
On the top of my head:
-3 star coins in one run in the stage
-Stage run without getting hit by an enemy or hazard
-Been killed many times on the same stage
-Beat the game
I love I can draw about them
I als made a screenshot yesterday of me getting all the coins in the mine stages. So is like creating your own achivements.
Mario does have achivements (internal of course), and you can add them to the miiverse as messages if you want, and they appear in random and your friend's game map.
On the top of my head:
-3 star coins in one run in the stage
-Stage run without getting hit by an enemy or hazard
-Been killed many times on the same stage
-Beat the game
I love I can draw about them
I als made a screenshot yesterday of me getting all the coins in the mine stages. So is like creating your own achivements.
Now THIS, I'm on board with. Being able to have the Wii U act as a DVR would be awesome. If its technically capable of doing so, I'd like to see this added.
Hmm....think I may make a new thread
I agree that it would be easier to have them on the system, but the FACT is that there are achievements, and people are still acting like if there are none at all.
the "should be" i bolded it's not a fact, it's an opinion.
the original argument was that the system had no achievements, hence, no replayability... the FACT is that there are achievements on the game... hence, replayability is there, the only thing that's lacking is a gamerscore and a record of it.
They really should have them on the Wii U. I love getting trophies. If a game isn't a 80+ hour grind to platinum, I'll attempt for it, or get bored trying. Devs make a lot of trophies that really kind of force your hand in playing their game a certain way or exploring parts of it you normally wouldn't, and when done right, can really add to the experience.
Its silly and lazy not to have them. People love progression, even if its just a number or level, and lets them feel like they're working toward something.
Its silly and lazy not to have them. People love progression, even if its just a number or level, and lets them feel like they're working toward something.
You've already said that you wouldn't care if they add system-wide achievements which I think would be an nice addition to the Miiverse and would enhance it further.
Recording short clips should be another thing that is implemented to Miiverse.
No the fact is the achievements are game only and they should have implemented a system-wide system there's no excuse for it not to be especially when something like the Miiverse exists and achievements would just be a nice addon to it.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
This might be partially addressed by adding a filter to view the Miiverse posts of friends in the context of specific games.
It almost seems that, initially at least, Nintendo is trying to encourage people to be actively social rather than passively social. Some are going to complain that making a Miiverse post is more work than an achievement popping up on its own. But that could be the point. You have to go out and participate in Miiverse, post screenshots, etc. It does encourage a sense of community.
They appear to have done something right there, if the positive response by a lot of users is any indication.
Of course, it may grate against particularly anti-social and passive gamers... which could mean most of GAF...
Just kidding!
Or am I?
Somehow, I find it hard to see it as "lazy" given the amount of work that went into an alternative philosophy (Miiverse). Which is a far more complex and involved development project than copying say, Sony's trophy system.
On the other hand, perhaps it could be said that developers themselves are being lazy, if they don't put a payoff into their game that rewards hours of grinding past a cheevo or trophy popup.
It's quite true that people like to feel they're working towards something. And a sign of progression. There's nothing wrong with that. But in the debate over achievements, a lot of people seem to not understand that game design and content has devolved rather than evolved due to the still-simplistic form of achievements and trophies.
Before this generation, the "reward" for blowing a game out was, frequently, something real within the game. (More common, apparently, in Japanese made games, than western made games.) A new game+, new way to play the game, hidden characters, items that modified the game experience, cheats, hidden options. Today, when achievements are criticized, many get defensive and offended, telling others "don't tell me how to play my game". Sometimes, that kind of response misses the point being made. There's a legitimate reason to criticize the way achievements have been used to create a kind of lazy metagaming hook to addict players.
Sony's trophy system is marginally better than Xbox or Steam cheevoes, as a platinum trophy count at least sort-of means something. But the entire rig is, at the base level, still a crutch that invites game developers to be lazy about insuring their game has content and value for actually playing the game. If people love progression, give them something worth striving for.
If Nintendo's platform is updated further in this regard, then a game complete trophy system (aka, the platinum) might be most appropriate - for example, you could give players the option to share their play history log with friends (or the public), which would show which games they've actually played, how many hours they logged, and a trophy next to a game if they've reached whatever counts as that game's end-state as set by the developer. I think that would be a useful social tool/metric for people to share.
But beyond that, I'd much rather see A: people sharing their own personal achievements via Miiverse, and B: developers design games worth playing and blowing out to maximum completion for their own sake.
RurouniZel
Asks questions so Ezalc doesn't have to
Because I asked them not to. My bad.
As i said, you cannot filter posts on the profile page yet, but that would alleviate the issues you're speaking of (even creating a "small, tight list" of games that person has played and thus posted about).
goldenpp72
Member
It may be anecdotal, but I have yet to see one compelling conversation or social interaction occur on miiverse. Every single post is a random doodle or a twitter comment. I really don't see how saying 'ZOMG YOSHI!' is better socially than a random achievement, at least one mask your stupidity. My only usage in Miiverse for myself was to document the date any of my yoshis died, but upon discovering that there are only like 3 levels with a yoshi (and that I can't die using a baby yoshi) meant that my (admittedly pointless) theme went to waste.
Miiverse is a novelty function, it's twitter in a game that is system wide, and that's cool. Saying it can replace achievements though is the same as saying twitter replaces neogaf, etc. You can't have this kind of discussion for example in a practical way on Miiverse, it would more so go down like this.
Y U have no achievements
Cuz 360 rawks -Deleted by Nintendo
LOL only loozers need those!
*picture of buff sonic in a car*
I like pants
Flame Lord
Member
I'm going to take your lack of an argument as me being right.
SolidSnakex
Member
And that's fine if they only want to do things that appeal to their own fans. But their problem has never been their ability to appeal to their own fanbase. Their problem has been appealing to people outside of it. And they chose to do something else instead of doing something that would've been relatively simple.
test_account
XP-39C²
I see what you mean. In general, personally dont think this is a problem. It becomes one extra thing to do, and the game will still be fun to play. Call of Duty has tons of challenges like this (not trophy/achievement related however, but titles/emblems related that can be unlocked and used in the game), yet i havnt felt that the game is more boring to play because of that, on the contrary actually, it increases my enjoyment of the game. I think this is one of the reasons why COD is so popular, because of all the different challenges in the game. I dont want the tough challenges to be tied to achievements/trophies however.