Wonko_C
Member
...The fact that it tries to be as close to reality just makes it so much more apparent that those sensual impressions aren't there that, contrary to what might seem logical, those games pull me out of the experience.
...The fact that it tries to be as close to reality just makes it so much more apparent that those sensual impressions aren't there that, contrary to what might seem logical, those games pull me out of the experience.
*shrug* I loved Mirror's Edge, I don't know what else to say on the topicOnce the Mirrors Edge fans finds this thread you will learn how reality opposes the OP.
I love first-person games.
I like the sense of being in a space. I'm enamored with the way that they enhance immersion. After playing Thief, I can't play stealth games any other way, because they just aren't as good (Mark of the Ninja aside). Likewise, best horror games I've ever played are in the first person, because they don't let you see what's coming up behind you. By being in first-person, stealth and horror games require players to listen as much as anything, increasing the amount of sensory dedication players must use, resulting in an increase in player immersion.
The best sense of motion I've ever felt in a game was in a first-person game--I couldn't stand playing games like Dishonored or Mirror's Edge in the third person, and I think they'd suffer massively from doing so. This year's Black Mesa felt incredible in part because of all the subtle camera tilts they used to really nail that kinetic feeling.
I love first-person games. I even love the "trend" (air quotes since it's absurdly rare) of adapting games to FPSes because that almost always ends well, resulting in games like Metroid Prime, Fallout 3, SWAT 3/4, Ultima Underworld, etc.
But some people don't.
When I've asked the question before, I've received basically two answers: first, "it's unrealistic, because I can't look down and see my body," usually followed with some praise for third-person games, and second, "I get motion sickness."
The first one confuses me, because it seems like it's even more unrealistic to watch yourself from some weird third-person perspective. Besides, the times when are required to look down at your body are fairly rare, much like real life. It seems like a baseless argument, demanding realism from FPSes and FPSes only, while ignoring that all games feature some form of abstraction. No one talks about how they feel like they're controlling a marionette in third-person games, but it feels like the complaints about 'feeling like a camera with a gun attached' never cease.
The second complaint I can appreciate, since I suffer from mild motion sickness issues myself. The way to rid yourself of this problem is to play first-person games with a wider field of vision. There are quite a few ways to do this, though I personally find that Flawless Widescreen works the best. If you get headaches from first-person games, I implore you to adjust the FOV to something closer to 90-110. It should solve your problem.
So... if one reason is stupid, and the other reason's solvable, what other reasons do people have for not liking first-person games? "It's just not for me" is something I completely understand; I'm looking for legitimate arguments against first-person games, because it seems like they could be really interesting.
Adjust FOV. Solve all problems.
I just don't like how characters move and control in first person perspective. Seems limiting for any genre other than shooters. And in shooter's there's not exactly a lot of gameplay variety.
edit- You don't get little things like Link's facial expressions in Wind Waker or Mario looking around for coin stars unless you have a 3rd person perspective.
I don't think it's so much a "which is better" debate as is commonly held.
In third person games you're usually controlling a character, following their story, not necessarily under the freedoms that first person games generally implore you to explore.
In first person games I've observed that the perspective is used to put you into the action and have you create your own experience under looser obligations as to the hows, whats, and whys.
They're both devices that are used when they are called for. Then what you'll find is people either like feeling like they're in the action or they like to be invested in a character - that is where the distinction is drawn imo
You know, I will say say something likein Uncharted 2 would not have had the same effect if it was in first person. At least for me, there was something uniquely serene about observing Drake in that situation, rather than experiencing it from his perspective. I guess I don't think immersion is tied to a particular perspective, both are equally suited to producing amazing moments that only video games can produce.walking around in the village
I usually dislike first-person perspective. Not because of realism or motion sickness, but just because it feels strange to me.
I feel disembodied (not the same argument as "I can't look down and see my character") and find it difficult to gauge where exactly my character is in the game space. I have trouble with jumps in particular, or sometimes jumping is so dumbed-down that I can successfully complete a jump but it looks like I'm just standing on empty space. (And I'm pretty good at suspending my disbelief in video games, but that just breaks my immersion totally.)
Because most of the games with that perspective sucks ass and since people like generalizations people say that they don't like first person games.
There are also people who say that they don't like FP games but it's not because they don't like it but because they can't play it (motion sickness)... the fox and the grapes.
Basically all first-person games (at least any with more movement than something like Shadowgate or Myst) make me sick. I guess it's essentially reverse motion sickness - seeing motion, but not feeling it, as opposed to feeling motion but not seeing it (I can read, play video games, whatever, in a moving vehicle and it doesn't bother me any). Especially games with headbob (was really dissapointed that the preview videos for Legend of Grimrock showed it as smooth-scrolling, and then they randomly decided to add in head-bob at the last minute. It's somewhat tolerable since it's at least a slow game), but still.
Fortunately, there aren't too many first-person games which interest me. I have no interest at all in FPSs (possibly the first-person issue is part of the reason, but, running around and shooting stuff just doesn't appeal to me very much regardless), and other than that it hasn't been too much of an issue. But, yeah, if nothing else, the above is a reason.
Not all games have a FOV adjustment.
And, I've tried adjusting it as much as possible, still no good.
This is an understandable point of view, especially if you've had the misfortune of playing bad shooters, or if you play shooters incorrectly (thinking they're only about pointing and clicking).
This is definitely one of the things Uncharted 2 didn't screw up.
How is it visually or artistically lazy or dull? The level of art and detail that goes into the game does not solely hinge on whether or not the player can see his or her character.
There is no emotional connection with the main character--because that's supposed to be you.
I disagree with this. Few game narratives have any degree of soul, and I say this as a writer. First-person shooters have some of gaming's best stories. System Shock 2, for instance, is one of the few games that has a story that wouldn't be embarrassingly bad in any other medium. Marathon (particularly Marathon: Infinity) is a work of metatextual brilliance. Portal oozes with soul.
If anything, it's the first-person perspective that, when used properly, proves that the first-person perspective is the most powerful use of the medium, because it is the way in which video games as an art form can be unique. No other art medium has the capability to put the audience so directly in touch with the game.
That wasn't directed at you, rather the people who commonly lump things together and say "FPSes are bad" or vice versa, and the OP title that would suggest such a discussion, which differs from the actual OP.I definitely wasn't trying to start a "which is better" discussion. I was just interested in learning why people who don't like first-person perspective don't like it. I'm well aware that they both have their uses; it's the people who say "THIS THING IS BAD AND I HATE IT" that interest me.
Yeah, there seem to be some pretty broad blanket statements being made in this thread. There are lots of bad FPS games, but there are also lots of great ones. The same could be said for almost any genre in gaming.That wasn't directed at you, rather the people who commonly lump things together and say "FPSes are bad" or vice versa.
Motion sickness is a big one.
My friend can't play FPS coz he gets headaches and wants to vomit, he's also a huge Metroid fanboy and had to play the Prime games in like 30min stints to avoid feeling too sick.
That's commitment.
Mirror's Edge would like to have a word with you.Gameplay combat outside of the shooting genre has never been done well in first person.
Isn't motion sickness a side effect of the game being immersive? My palms would sweat like hell playing Mirrors Edge, but that was kinda a part of the experience.
This doesn't seem so different from, say, third person though. At least third-person where you control the character directly.And from a purely mechanical point of view, it's difficult to be creative with first person gameplay - you're a lot more restricted to the kinds of actions that are directly under the player's control.
This I certaintly agree with. Reminds me of all the mixed impressions on the weapon recoil in Killzone 2 or the mixed views on view bobbing. Many players refuse to have anything but the fastest view speeds too, which can alter mechanics especially getting into things like close combat. I actually think the way Wii Shooters (or at least the Prime games) work is a good compromise; locking speed of turning using dragging but still giving you complete freedom to aim where in front of you as fast as you want.You're also restricted by expectations of the players themselves. Many people play FP games exclusively due to their preference for immersion. But FP game conventions have all run together, because people become unhappy quickly if a first person game doesn't "handle right". If any limitations or consequences of being a specific character interfere with a player being able to whip around the game world like a first person shooter. At best you can usually only make the character's walking speed slow to keep things under control.
I don't think the problem is with players accepting as it is not many First-Person games really attempting to portray personality period. Mirror's Edge is one of the few games that I've ever seen try to portray personality in something other than voice-over (and even then few games move from the silent protagonist) by little things like the hug that takes place between her and her sister as well as other small movements and even then most of the narrative rolls out over animated sequences. Of course it doesn't help, like you mentioned earlier, players aren't keen on altering what seems to be a concrete definition of how first-person feels like. Personally I think all the little things like becoming crippled, slowed down, wrestling, and being knocked(though I think some disorientation could be worked positively into the game) down could all be MORE impactful in first-person if done correctly(no you shouldn't be hit and spiraled across the environment regulary, but being knocked back maintains player orientation with what I would argue is still a more impactful effect) and if players will take a momentary lapse in their speedy movement.With third person, people will more easily accept their character having personality and quirks, because their visible animation and interaction with the environment justifies limitations. They can become crippled, slowed down by climbing, wrestle with other characters, knocked down without disorienting the player, and engage alternate mechanics. And to be fair, Mirror's Edge is probably the most sophisticated first person game so far, with regards to complexity of character abilities that the player really controls.
Left 4 Dead messed with me for a while because the movement doesnt feel planted. You just kindof slide across the ground with sway. Doesn't feel organic.I forced my wife to play a round of Left 4 Dead...the motion sickness almost made her throw up. Yeah I guess it's that some people are never meant to play it. Too bad for them.
Left 4 Dead messed with me for a while because the movement doesnt feel planted. You just kindof slide across the ground with sway. Doesn't feel organic.
From what I've played of RE4 and 5 I don't see how you can say it disproves First Person for fast shooters. Most enemies in RE are not firing projectiles and while they can move fast I thought even in RE5 many stoped a few feet away to slowly come at you with a melee weapon. They are not the same kind of game.I like seeing the character I'm playing as, the animations and costumes. I like the body language of a slickly choreographed gun fight or melee fight in third person. I find that platforming, running, quick turning, and any kind of movement is dramatically easier in third person. And finally, RE4, RE5, RE6, and Vanquish have already completely proven that you don't need to be limited to first person to be able to aim well in an aggressive shooter. In reality, being able to see your character's body allows the shooter to be much more aggressive, like Vanquish.
I just don't see what FP offers as a perspective. I tolerate it for the odd game here or there, but I pretty much wish every time that I had the option to not use it. It feels lazy because you can't see your character do anything. Compare the combat in Skyrim, which was designed to be played in first person, to the combat in Dragon's Dogma. Compare fluidity and movement in Halo, to the unparalleled movement in Vanquish.
After RE4, I honestly felt like the whole perspective was proven to be mostly obsolete.