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Why don't western games have melodic music?
- Thread starter SolVanderlyn
- Start date
Charlouie Jonesman
Banned
I can't really say anything about the why's and what's, though I remember an interview with Yuzo Koshiro many many years ago where he named this as the number 1 difference between western and japanese game music, which is when I actually realized this myself.
Anyway, this post is really just a thinly veiled excuse to post examples of Deus Ex's OST, one of the western exceptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FZ-12a3dTI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sJUsOP0T1o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d2ckRl3YFc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UWRRd9mqAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX0hU7jQ5O4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vTvHsHx4TM
Honestly, HR's monotone, ambient soundtrack was my one big disappointment with the game. The main theme was cool but that's it.
Anyway, this post is really just a thinly veiled excuse to post examples of Deus Ex's OST, one of the western exceptions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FZ-12a3dTI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sJUsOP0T1o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5d2ckRl3YFc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UWRRd9mqAY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX0hU7jQ5O4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vTvHsHx4TM
Honestly, HR's monotone, ambient soundtrack was my one big disappointment with the game. The main theme was cool but that's it.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
For me, music is more important to my enjoyment of an RPG than story is. I hate how most Western games use music as background ambience & not as a chance to provide some killer tunes.
EDIT: I was actually not a fan of DCK:TF's soundtrack because I felt it was a lot more ambient & less prominent than the previous games.
EDIT: I was actually not a fan of DCK:TF's soundtrack because I felt it was a lot more ambient & less prominent than the previous games.
Battlechili
Banned
Why can't music be both ambient and melodic? Think things like the Kingdom Hearts soundtrack where even music just walking around some worlds can be catchy and entertaining.
Astral Dog
Member
David Wise?
Also, the soundtrack of Metroid Prime is Japanese
Also, the soundtrack of Metroid Prime is Japanese
...Japanese composer.
I think there is just a larger volume of classically trained composers in Japan who have career paths that put them into various media. The rise of ambient music in US games coincides with the lowering population of classically trained composers, and the rise of bad Hollywood composition. Western production companies do not seem to like music that takes center stage, and many composers either can't or won't make music like John Williams or Poledouris.
Miami Vice illustrates this better than anything. In fact they used so much good music to add more atmosphere that release to dvd was held up for years due to rights problems.
It's probably also the fact this Hollywood envy is kind of epidemic across AAA games that the biggest exception (ME) went from being really good about it with the first game and to a large extent still in the second game... only to basically go with a typical movie sounding soundtrack for the most part in 3. Granted that might've still been one of the better cases, but I really got into the music in ME1 and 2 whereas I can't really remember much of ME3's outside of perhaps the ending credits (done by the same people as in ME1 anyway.)
drotahorror
Member
There just needs to be more western games period. RDR and Call of Juarez are not enough.
The composers were Japanese. However, they worked in conjunction with Retro on the soundtrack to make sure it was what Americans would want to hear.
And then Retro itself received much assistance and direction from Japanese Nintendo advisers.
It's interesting how collaboration can supersede national boundaries.
Bomber Bob
Banned
coz western devs are always trying to copy hollywood
Astral Dog
Member
I would watch a spanish novela based on Castlevania.
JasonUresti
Member
Never noticed a lack of melodic music in the PC games I played growing up. Warcraft, Starcraft, Wing Commander,Civilization 2, Command and Conquer, Crusader, Rise of the Triad and dozens of others all had plenty of powerful melodic tracks.
edit-Oh yeah and don't forget the great work done by the Follins and Frank Klepacki
edit-Oh yeah and don't forget the great work done by the Follins and Frank Klepacki
Kojirospath
Member
Battlechili
Banned
Oops
My bad. I had forgotten.
Though the fact that one of my suggestions for Western games with very good melodic soundtracks turned out to be done by a Japanese composer is very telling.
Melodic is typically based on repeating, catchy hooks. Ambient is more like background music used to enhance atmosphere rather than grab your attention directly.
Robert at Zeboyd Games
Banned
Ambient music would be very low key stuff designed to give mood & a sense of place more than anything else. It's in the background.
Melodic music is music that's meant to be paid attention to. It gets in your head. You could whistle it. You could dance to it. It's in the foreground.
What?? Deus Ex HR had amazing ambient tone. The game oozed atmosphere because of the stunning soundtrack. A catchy hummable tune would have been so out of place. Ambient music rocks always! Hive Club was amazing if you wanted something to hum
Gaffercake
Member
Before Jesper Kyd left, the Assassin's Creed soundtracks were the complete opposite of that pretty sweeping generalisation, western games western composer
Assassin's Creed 2 - Venice Rooftops
Halo, Uncharted, LBP, and a handful of others also come to mind.
Assassin's Creed 2 - Venice Rooftops
Halo, Uncharted, LBP, and a handful of others also come to mind.
SuperAngelo64
Banned
People always assume that the reason Japanese music is better than western music is because of the "melody". That's really only a byproduct. The actual difference is dynamic chord progression and breaking then outside of their respective genres.
Throw in the fact that western composers are by and large afraid of using 7 and 9 chords and you have a recipe for bland Hollywood garbage.
Take a tip from this guy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPx6WdNM30
Throw in the fact that western composers are by and large afraid of using 7 and 9 chords and you have a recipe for bland Hollywood garbage.
Take a tip from this guy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPx6WdNM30
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Rayman Legends is pretty good with catchy, melodic music. Even not counting the music stages (which are covers of famous songs like Eye of the Tiger or Black Betty), you have those like Medieval Theme, Orchestral Chaos, Forest Invaded, Infernal Pursuit, Hell's Gate, Grannies World Tour etc.
JasonUresti
Member
Oh really jefe?
I love both approaches really. Fast, melody-heavy catchy tunes often wouldn't serve the ongoing visuals in cinematic games, and that's what the music is really there for: serving the imagery. Since western studios make hollywood inspired cinematic games a lot more than japanese studios, we hear more sweeping, pulsing and atmospheric music in western games. The rise of indie games have brought with them a lot more catchy and melodic music from the west.
Oh, that would explain what I was hearing in Infamous:SS.
I'm running around the map then all of a sudden there's this soft (yet brief) music playing, especially during rainy weather.
Having a melodic track in an open world setting would probably get irritating after a couple hours, I guess.
show me your skeleton
Member
anime avatar tells us how superior japan is to the rest of the world.
SuperAngelo64
Banned
Everything I said is fact, look at the sheet music if you don't believe me. A few exceptions like David Wise, Jake Kaufman, and whoever wrote the Transistor soundtrack break the mold (and they're awesome).
Go and grab a guitar, or keyboard, ukulele or whatever you have nearby and play a western song but swap some of the normal chords for 7 or 9 chords (if it calls for G use G7 or Gm7) during climactic parts and it will make the melody sound a million times more iconic.
Melodic music is music with a focus on a central consistent melody. A lot of music isn't "melodic" yet is still in-your-face and meant for you to pay attention to it.
For example, Ghosts of Perdition by Opeth has a lot of non-melodic sections.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
I chuckled, hehe
NinjamicWZ
Banned
I was talking to someone about 80's grindhouse-y horror kind of stuff, and the movie Phantasmagoria came to mind. Not because it's a particularly good movie by any means, but because the score sounds like a space rock-ish band literally just recorded themselves jamming out on various drugs while watching it, and then the editor just laid the two audio tracks together. It's so great in that way.
I think melodic music can give mood and sense of place too which is why I don't like ambient music.
This is pretty much the correct answer.
NinjamicWZ
Banned
Someone needs to write a creepypasta fanfic about how the supposed "death" of old school video game music in the west is directly related to Sonic 3 and the public trials/tribulations of Michael Jackson. Get really Kevin Bacon with it.
JinjoUnchained
Member
I hate to play the "lazy devs" card, I know they aren't actually being lazy and that budgetary concerns and unreasonable release dates are the real reason for what we attribute to laziness.
But I will say that generic ambient music is much easier to make then, say, the Xenoblade Chronicles OST. A lot of the "epic" music I've heard in many western AAA games sounds to me like generic ripoffs of Orff's O Fortuna. Thumping drums, strings, modal medieval harmony, choir; any or all of that. It's not that hard to rip off Orff and I imagine quite tempting when you have an unreasonable release date to meet. It's also a lot easier to plug and play into the newest installment of your annual franchise.
So chalk it up to unreasonable deadlines in many western games, I'd say. OTOH, games like Zelda and Final Fantasy typically aren't released until they are ready, so the composers would have extra time to write interesting music and sync it with the gameplay. Think about the music of Zora's Domain from OOT and how well it fits the environment and contrasts with the quiet area that proceeds that. That takes extra time, both to write music that interesting and make sure it works with the game's pacing.
As the name suggests, melodic music has a melody! Think of the melody as the singer in a pop or rock song. It's the leading voice, it makes a statement that you pay attention to. The rest of the music is rhythm and harmony, which are the groove (like a drummer) and the other voices that make the music sound good, but without making a direct statement. So ambient music would have rhythm and harmony, but little or not melody. You've got a groove that makes you react at a certain speed/pace and harmony that sets a mood, but no actual statement being made (no melody). The term also often implies that the harmony and rhythm are very simple.
But I will say that generic ambient music is much easier to make then, say, the Xenoblade Chronicles OST. A lot of the "epic" music I've heard in many western AAA games sounds to me like generic ripoffs of Orff's O Fortuna. Thumping drums, strings, modal medieval harmony, choir; any or all of that. It's not that hard to rip off Orff and I imagine quite tempting when you have an unreasonable release date to meet. It's also a lot easier to plug and play into the newest installment of your annual franchise.
So chalk it up to unreasonable deadlines in many western games, I'd say. OTOH, games like Zelda and Final Fantasy typically aren't released until they are ready, so the composers would have extra time to write interesting music and sync it with the gameplay. Think about the music of Zora's Domain from OOT and how well it fits the environment and contrasts with the quiet area that proceeds that. That takes extra time, both to write music that interesting and make sure it works with the game's pacing.
As the name suggests, melodic music has a melody! Think of the melody as the singer in a pop or rock song. It's the leading voice, it makes a statement that you pay attention to. The rest of the music is rhythm and harmony, which are the groove (like a drummer) and the other voices that make the music sound good, but without making a direct statement. So ambient music would have rhythm and harmony, but little or not melody. You've got a groove that makes you react at a certain speed/pace and harmony that sets a mood, but no actual statement being made (no melody). The term also often implies that the harmony and rhythm are very simple.
Do you have any examples that specifically sound like O Fortuna?
Choir, thumping percussion, and strings aren't exactly limited to that song.
I disagree. You are equating orchestral choir and ambient music wrongly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-doUT5q_dYc
This for example is a perfect example that fits your category. Orchestra, lots of strings, choir but so perfectly suits Bloodborne's atmosphere. Extremely thoughtful and purposeful in its tone and conveys the mood of the game perfectly. Not written to meet deadlines
It is however not ambient music. An example of ambient music is this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cIbVP0W0y8
Again perfectly suits the atmosphere of the game. Just suits the moment, the tone of the game at that point. It would have been so jarring to hear some catchy melody here at that moment
I think the problem with a lot of Japanese games is the soundtrack does not correlate with what is happening on screen a lot of the time. Sometimes there is no restraint, no subtlety. It is over bearing and feels like the game is explicitly saying " hey please pay attention to my tune. It is catchy please listen" irrespective of whether the situation warrants it. I am of course generalizing but lately I am feeling this disparity in a lot of Japanese games and particularly jrpgs.
Agreed, and damn! Deus Ex:HR really nails down the armosphere and texture through music.
SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
Oh wow, this is awesome!! This is exactly what I am talking about, and what I think more western games should try to do.
To Far Away Times
Member
Japanese games tend to place a lot more emphasis on music than western games.
Western Indie games tend to be based more off of Japanese games, and they tend to have better music than their big budget Western counterparts as well.
Western Indie games tend to be based more off of Japanese games, and they tend to have better music than their big budget Western counterparts as well.
Western composers make ambient music and only ambient music also it's inherently inferior to melodic music. I strongly suspect the reason for this is that they are afraid of using 7 and 9 chords
oh shit, I misinterpreted that part
I'm not sure if japanese games put more emphasis on music. I think that they usually try to convey different things with their music compared to most western games. I think that they all put an emphasis on music but in different ways, because their games are different and the job of the music is to serve whatever is going on in the game. If their games are different then it stands to reason that the music is different too. Whether one generally thinks that western indies have better music than western AAA-games is pretty much down to personal preference. Many times as a listening experience I prefer the more catchy and punchy songs from indie titles but I also appreciate the more mood setting music that is appropriate to the scene it was composed for, even if outside the scene that same music wouldn't be as entertaining to listen to.
Eh, a lot of people don't have proper training and don't possess the correct vocabulary to properly describe their positions, so they use the words they think best to describe the situation.
It's common though, as the emphasis on music education is minor in most schools. I usually try and help people and try to understand their positions by asking for clarification or how they arrived at their conclusions. They usually know what they want to say but not how to correctly say it.