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[Palculator]

I'm also wondering why few games in general feature music with actual vocals and if they do, it's just a choir singing "notes" not actual lyrics. It's kind of related because I can think of more Japanese examples of actual songs in games.

Just remember how awesome Snake Eater was or how Song of the Ancients set the tone in Nier. More games should do that.

 

[HK-47]

I'm also wondering why few games in general feature music with actual vocals and if they do, it's just a choir singing "notes" not actual lyrics. It's kind of related because I can think of more Japanese examples of actual songs in games.

Just remember how awesome Snake Eater was or how Song of the Ancients set the tone in Nier. More games should do that.

More games should have battle songs like Ar Tonelico

 

[Secret Owl]

Because everything still needs to sound like a boring dub-step remix of the Inception score. It's okay though, certain western composers are keeping melodic music alive in the form of indie games.

 

[Anth0ny]

melodies aren't epic enough for the serious stories being told. lots of forgettable ambient crap, too.

it's mostly a problem with western AAA titles. western indie games don't have this problem to anywhere near the same extent.

 

[HK-47]

melodies aren't epic enough for the serious stories being told. lots of forgettable ambient crap, too.

it's mostly a problem with western AAA titles. western indie games don't have this problem to anywhere near the same extent.

Why is it even a problem?

 

[Red Blaster]

A lot of the "epic" music I've heard in many western AAA games sounds to me like generic ripoffs of Orff's O Fortuna. Thumping drums, strings, modal medieval harmony, choir; any or all of that. It's not that hard to rip off Orff and I imagine quite tempting when you have an unreasonable release date to meet. It's also a lot easier to plug and play into the newest installment of your annual franchise.

thank goodness for western indie games like red dead redemption, battlefield, halo, splinter cell, mirror's edge, forza, starcraft, mass effect, the last of us, max payne, infamous, hitman and far cry for avoiding this trend

 

[Theognosis]

People always assume that the reason Japanese music is better than western music is because of the "melody". That's really only a byproduct. The actual difference is dynamic chord progression and breaking then outside of their respective genres.

Throw in the fact that western composers are by and large afraid of using 7 and 9 chords and you have a recipe for bland Hollywood garbage.

Take a tip from this guy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPx6WdNM30

Great insight! Thanks for the info.

 

[Falk]

I'm also wondering why few games in general feature music with actual vocals and if they do, it's just a choir singing "notes" not actual lyrics. It's kind of related because I can think of more Japanese examples of actual songs in games.

Just remember how awesome Snake Eater was or how Song of the Ancients set the tone in Nier. More games should do that.

Yeah

MGR: Revengeance

FFXIII-2

Tales of Zestiria

Atelier Escha&Logy

All Japanese. (Well, MGR:R technically wasn't Japanese composer, but it was Platinum-aesthetic anyway)

It's the same fundamental reason, though. In terms of Western aesthetic, music getting in the way of especially VA work is a huge no-no. Due to its interactive nature, it's actually even more limiting than in linear media like films. In films, you can accurately know when you need to stay out of the way, and fit in your hits, impacts, motifs, etc in between. In games you have to assume that any point you might have VA or other elements of the game that shouldn't be detracted from.

People always assume that the reason Japanese music is better than western music is because of the "melody". That's really only a byproduct. The actual difference is dynamic chord progression and breaking then outside of their respective genres.

Throw in the fact that western composers are by and large afraid of using 7 and 9 chords and you have a recipe for bland Hollywood garbage.

Take a tip from this guy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPx6WdNM30

It's both, in parallel, to be quite honest.

Just take a look in the difference in European vs Japanese EDM, or rock vs J-rock. A typical trance offering in Japan usually has 'too much going on' when you're judging its merits from an European taste. Yet active foreground/mid-ground/background (counterpoint, even) is a staple sound for people who are into J-trance.

 

[TC McQueen]

I'm also wondering why few games in general feature music with actual vocals and if they do, it's just a choir singing "notes" not actual lyrics. It's kind of related because I can think of more Japanese examples of actual songs in games.

Because half the time, you don't even perceive the lyrics unless they're synced up to a really hype moment, like how you only really hear RULES OF NATURE when Raiden blocks the Metal Gear Ray's blade and then tosses it in the air in MGR's first level, even though the song has been playing throughout the fight. You're usually too busy fighting/evading/whatever in combat for lyrics to sink in.

Also, vocal tracks with lyrics are generally less flexible in terms of game contexts they work in, while chanting can work with just about anything.

 

[HK-47]

thank goodness for western indie games like red dead redemption, battlefield, halo, splinter cell, mirror's edge, forza, starcraft, mass effect, the last of us, max payne, infamous, hitman and far cry for avoiding this trend

Good post.

 

[JinjoUnchained]

thank goodness for western indie games like

for avoiding this trend

I'm not sure of your point here; that some AAA western games have melodic music? Sure, no one's disputing that. I said "many western AAA games", not all. Some do, some don't, like OP was alluding to. For example, I can't remember any of the music in Tomb Raider 2013. That's not saying it was good or bad, but that it was forgettable. Which brings us back to the OP, because a good melody is usually the easiest thing to remember.

If nothing else, thanks for posting some good music in AAA western games. Good to have a counterbalance.

 

[Arc Christelle]

No Funk Allowed.

 

[Sami+]

hey op

play transistor

 

[Drkirby]

I feel Japanese Games the music is meant to invoke a hard emotion or feeling, were western game music is meant to be more ambient and set the mood. Its just goes down to culture, like how western and Japanese games used different perspectives in the 2D days, where Japanese games mostly put everything on the same plane, and western games tried to emulate depth.

 

[Falk]

like how western and Japanese games used different perspectives in the 2D days, where Japanese games mostly put everything on the same plane, and western games tried to emulate depth.

Hahahah now that you mention it, this is the complete opposite of Japanese vs western animation.

 

[Easy_D]

There are western games that have some of my favourite melodic music, take Trine 1/2 for example:

Trine - Astral Academy

Trine - Academy Hallways

Trine - Crystal Caverns

This is the same guy who made the Angry Birds theme lol. That final piece is amazing.

Then there's Abyss Odyssey which is very "Japanese" in terms of videogame music

Abyss Odyssey - Ice Caverns

Abyss Odyssey - The Descent Begins

Abyss Odyssey - Into the Wild


Or how about Dungeons of Dredmor!

Dungeons of Dredmor - Brawl

Dungeons of Dredmor - Ghosts (This one is both atmospheric and melodic!)

Then there's of course Aquaria (Which is a fantastic underwater Metroid-like game with beautiful environments and music, as heard in the below links /Aquaria Plug)

Aquaria - Arboreal

Aquaria - The Traveller

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I feel Japanese Games the music is meant to invoke a hard emotion or feeling, were western game music is meant to be more ambient and set the mood. Its just goes down to culture, like how western and Japanese games used different perspectives in the 2D days, where Japanese games mostly put everything on the same plane, and western games tried to emulate depth.

Yellow Magic Orchestra.

 

[HK-47]

Easy, your dredmor links arent correct

 

[Mashing]

Hans Zimmer.

it all comes back to this overrated fucking hack who has ruined Hollywood and now AAA developers look upon that garbage with envy

You say this after the Interstellar soundtrack, are you insane?

 

[Red Blaster]

I'm not sure of your point here; that some AAA western games have melodic music? Sure, no one's disputing that. I said "many western AAA games", not all. Some do, some don't, like OP was alluding to. For example, I can't remember any of the music in Tomb Raider 2013. That's not saying it was good or bad, but that it was forgettable. Which brings us back to the OP, because a good melody is usually the easiest thing to remember.

If nothing else, thanks for posting some good music in AAA western games. Good to have a counterbalance.

firstly, what are some of the many western AAA games that feature "generic rip offs of o fortuna"? while also keeping in mind that an o fortuna type piece may in fact suit a game's aesthetic! your spiel about "unreasonable deadlines" just comes across as nonsensical jabbering from someone who doesn't know what they're talking about. re, tomb raider 2013--how come that game isn't just one with a bland soundtrack and not some agent towards your confirmation bias about western AAA gaming music? i don't suffer through motoi sakuraba's second-rate tales soundtracks and claim that most japanese game music is rife with van halen synthesizer leads and awful midi orchestra samples.

 

[Nyoro SF]

People always assume that the reason Japanese music is better than western music is because of the "melody". That's really only a byproduct. The actual difference is dynamic chord progression and breaking then outside of their respective genres.

Throw in the fact that western composers are by and large afraid of using 7 and 9 chords and you have a recipe for bland Hollywood garbage.

Take a tip from this guy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPx6WdNM30

Yeeeeeeep. I could only guess at the reasons why Western games tend to go for very bland music... but maybe it's fear that their games won't be taken seriously.

The entirety of the soundtrack for Danganronpa (a small time PSP game) absolutely crushes pretty much any mass Western game released in the past three years.

 

[Conezays]

Hans Zimmer.

it all comes back to this overrated fucking hack who has ruined Hollywood and now AAA developers look upon that garbage with envy

It's fine if you don't like his music, but he is anything but a "fucking hack."

To address the OP, I think Ultima 7 is an obvious Western game that has a great, melodic soundtrack. Obviously though, it's a little older and a bit harder to compare to what's going on right now.

 

[Violet_0]

Yeeeeeeep. I could only guess at the reasons why Western games tend to go for very bland music... but maybe it's fear that their games won't be taken seriously.

The entirety of the soundtrack for Danganronpa (a small time PSP game) absolutely crushes pretty much any mass Western game released in the past three years.

I'd even go so far as to say it crushes pretty much the entirety of all Western music released in the oh, last few hundred years. Chopin and Schubert got nothing on Dranganronpa

 

[Enosh]

I have a hard time buying the superiority of Japanese soundtracks when most to me sounds like "generic anime song #845"

simplification? stereotyping? probably yes, but given the generalizations thrown at western devs in here, I don't think anyone gets to claim the moral high ground

but overall I'd actually agree, western game music was heavily influenced by movie music, but like said, at the same time I would argue Japanese one was by anime

 

[EatChildren]

I cannot agree with the op at all simply because just as many Japanese games to me have forgettable, dull soundtracks as games developed outside of Japan. I just don't see a distinction in consistency or quality of "melodic music" between the two, especially in recent times. Singling out a handful of forgettable, Hollywood-like soundtracks doesn't undermine the wealth of games that do much more.

 

[Serrato]

I think this is more apparent on AAA gaming where it's most often than not Ambient music than melodic. Some of them have really forgettable music, while others (Deus Ex, like many already named) have one that really keep up and enhance what is happening.

As for japanese games, well many of them have forgettable musics, we only remember the good ones . A good actual exemple would be like the Etrian Odyssey series (especially IV, marvelous music))

Is it maybe because the OP is nostalgic of old RPG of the SNES/PSN era?

 

[ZdkDzk]

I feel like part of the difference is that the music in japanese games are generally written to stand on they're own, on top of adding to the game. Western games tend to be written with the second as it's goal.

A lot of the Western games have amazing OSTs, but if I try to listen to more than 2 or 3 songs by themselves they all just begin to blur together and lose my interest. Meanwhile, the only japanes game I've played in the last few years that doesn't have a great, easily listenable ost is Dark Souls 2.

But I think there is an argument to be made that Japan kept the model of prominent, melodic game music in the more recent 3D eras - and not in retro throwback games. While western music is generally more like film score, unless we're talking especially about retro-inspired indie games.

There's probably a point to be made about Japanese games being like interactive anime, and Western games being like interactive Hollywood.

People always assume that the reason Japanese music is better than western music is because of the "melody". That's really only a byproduct. The actual difference is dynamic chord progression and breaking then outside of their respective genres.

Throw in the fact that western composers are by and large afraid of using 7 and 9 chords and you have a recipe for bland Hollywood garbage.

Take a tip from this guy: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QtPx6WdNM30

This too. It's not just exclusively a video game thing. I can't speak for western music as a whole, but american music has almost always been geared towards the same simple and repetative chord progression. It's not neccesarily related to the whole ambiant vs melodic aspect, but it is part of the difference between the music we make.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Easy, your dredmor links arent correct

I got him covered!

I have a hard time buying the superiority of Japanese soundtracks when most to me sounds like "generic anime song #845"

simplification? stereotyping? probably yes, but given the generalizations thrown at western devs in here, I don't think anyone gets to claim the moral high ground

but overall I'd actually agree, western game music was heavily influenced by movie music, but like said, at the same time I would argue Japanese one was by anime

Yellow Magic Orchestra.

Just don't let Uematsu know I said that.

 

[GoaThief]

A typical trance offering in Japan usually has 'too much going on' when you're judging its merits from an European taste. Yet active foreground/mid-ground/background (counterpoint, even) is a staple sound for people who are into J-trance.

Got examples of this?

 

[Falk]

^ I don't want to draw attention to specific examples, but search J-trance on youtube vs compilations like ASOT

 

[Red Blaster]

lawl at that marty friedman link

that's like saying a book is more interesting if it has more pages

 

[swazzyswess]

I can't speak for western music as a whole, but american music has almost always been geared towards the same simple and repetative chord progression. It's not neccesarily related to the whole ambiant vs melodic aspect, but it is part of the difference between the music we make.

say what? Jazz is American and is one of the most melodically and tonally complex forms of music in existence. and Western music, including much American music, is more melodically-focused than that of many other regions of the world with their more rhythm-oriented compositions.

this thread hurts my music-loving brain >_<

I think what OP meant is "why don't more Western games have melodies that an '80s wrestler might use as their entrance music."

 

[HK-47]

say what? Jazz is American and is one of the most melodically and tonally complex forms of music in existence. and Western music, including much American music, is more melodically-focused than that of many other regions of the world with their more rhythm-oriented compositions.

this thread hurts my music-loving brain >_<

I think what OP meant is "why don't more Western games have melodies that an '80s wrestler might use as their entrance music."

Haha damn

 

[ZdkDzk]

say what? Jazz is American and is one of the most melodically and tonally complex forms of music in existence. and Western music, including much American music, is more melodically-focused than that of many other regions of the world with their more rhythm-oriented compositions.

this thread hurts my music-loving brain >_<

I think what OP meant is "why don't more Western games have melodies that an '80s wrestler might use as their entrance music."

Ever heard if the 12 bar blues? It's the chord I was thinking of. It's the most common chord in American music and the heart of jazz. I didn't say that the chord had anything to do with western music having melody, I said American music almost never deviates from it.

I also can't speak for the rest of the world, but saying that western music is more melodic than other regions seems like a really hard statement to make, especially in the last 100 years.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

OMG undersea palace.... I think ill fire up Chrono Trigger again this week.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Hans Zimmer.

it all comes back to this overrated fucking hack who has ruined Hollywood and now AAA developers look upon that garbage with envy

Pirates of the Carribean? Inception? Interstellar? The Thin Red Line? Gladiator? The fucking Lion King? And the video game soundtracks Zimmer writes totally aren't at all melodic.

Like, I know it's cool to hate on him because he's popular and all, but you're being a bit excessive.

That said, I think Hans Zimmer did a dope OST for Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. How exactly does it lack melodies, for example?

It doesn't. If Zimmer has a problem, it's that most of his soundtracks are either overly gothic or bombastic when they should be more atmospheric (his ghostwriters aren't very good and crank out a fair amount of mediocre tracks, but that's more of an issue with being in the Hollywood soundtrack business than Zimmer's musical ability). That won't stop MusicGAF from complaining about him at every opportunity, though.

 

[paradise_circus]

The only lackluster score i can think of in a western AAA game is the score for Assassin's Creed after Kyd left the project and Mass Effect 3, even though Clint Mansell's composed track was really great.

But I can't agree with the OP. I even would say, that most of the japanese scores are just too bland. They are mostly plainly so boring, because most of them sound like some key instrument mostly the violin, piano or guitar is playing some music over some very bland (orchestral) bassline over and over again.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

The only lackluster score i can think of in a western AAA game is the score for Assassin's Creed after Kyd left the project and Mass Effect 3, even though Clint Mansell's composed track was really great.

But I can't agree with the OP. I even would say, that most of the japanese scores are just too bland. They are mostly plainly so boring, because most of them sound like some key instrument mostly the violin, piano or guitar is playing some music over some very bland (orchestral) bassline over and over again.

Oh don't start THIS now either.

 

[rockmanjoe]

The Rayman Origins/Legends OSTs are amazing and quite melodic.

 

[SystemBug]

The thing is people automatically assume melodic to be some happy stuff. Western games dont go that route as from the great post example above in the thread.

 

[crazyturtle]

Western games aren't into eurobeat

 

[lazygecko]

What I dislike the most about the archetypical modern soundtrack music is not so much the amount of melodies but rather how completely harmonically vapid it is. More than ever people are just reusing the same standard, used-and-abused pop chord progressions. There's a whole world of harmony and interesting chord mixtures out there to evoke all sorts of emotions, yet people have snowed in on a miniscule fraction of what's available and it strikes me as so damn complacent and unambitious. I was talking to another composer in the industry a while ago and he pretty much echoed the exact same sentiment. It's especially endemic among younger up-and-coming composers who just seem to treat harmony as a disposable means to an end without any real interest in it.

I have a facepalm moment every time I'm subjected to this kind of shit. What's funnier is that if you google the chord progression (I VI III VII) the first result you get is "Hans Zimmer Chord Patterns". No wonder.

 

[djtiesto]

There just needs to be more western games period. RDR and Call of Juarez are not enough.

There's 7 Wild Arms games for you to play through. And Cowboy Kid for NES.

I have a hard time buying the superiority of Japanese soundtracks when most to me sounds like "generic anime song #845"

simplification? stereotyping? probably yes, but given the generalizations thrown at western devs in here, I don't think anyone gets to claim the moral high ground

but overall I'd actually agree, western game music was heavily influenced by movie music, but like said, at the same time I would argue Japanese one was by anime

I'd argue many Japanese games were more influenced by Yellow Magic Orchestra.

And people need to keep in mind that western game music wasn't always wannabe hollywood/Hans Zimmer. The chip and MOD music from some early western games was fucking killer.

Chris Hulsebeck - Turrican 2 title screen

Tim Follin - Solstice Title

Sonic CD - Stardust Speedway US

 

[djtiesto]

Its just goes down to culture, like how western and Japanese games used different perspectives in the 2D days, where Japanese games mostly put everything on the same plane, and western games tried to emulate depth.

Honestly, this is the first time I've ever seen someone mention this. Do you have any examples? Since there are plenty of Japanese 2D games with parallax, and the majority of beat-em-ups (with their planar movement) were Japanese-developed.

Also, this thread reminds me we need Tim Follin to start composing music again...

 

[The Albatross]

Valiant Hearts OST: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leJy_euQMaM

Some of the best music in any game in some time, IMO... And an incredible melody in both this and the pause music (can't find the pause music online ATM)

 

[Mabufu]

Hans Zimmer.

it all comes back to this overrated fucking hack who has ruined Hollywood and now AAA developers look upon that garbage with envy

I thought the same at first. But I dont give this any chance to actually be true lol

But I agree on Zimmer overrating.

 

[Hyperzephyrian]

Behold, big-budget Western games with melodic theme songs:

Deus Ex
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
Hitman 2: Silent Assassin

That doesn't necessarily represent a trend, but I think that melodic music is well-represented in Western games--just not totally dominant, like in Japanese games.

Spoiler

At least we don't have J-pop everywhere.

Hans Zimmer.

it all comes back to this overrated fucking hack who has ruined Hollywood and now AAA developers look upon that garbage with envy

I'll see your Hans Zimmer and raise you one Jesper Kyd.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

One would think this premise would happen less often on a message board that loses it every time David Wise confirms to be working on a new game.

 

[roknin]

OP, I agree, though it's not a West vs East thing, as has been mentioned. Music as background dressing seems to be the norm lately outside of indie games and certain studios / pubs though, which saddens me.

Playing through Chrono Trigger right now and damn that soundtrack has so much f'ing soul. T^T

Yes, especially for AAA.

In indie games by contrast, the music is usually one of the centerpieces.

There was a time this was actually popular in film making and television as well. If you go watch 80's or earlier movies/TV shows you'll often see music in starring roles while things happen.

For good modern indie examples I'd point to things like Hotline: Miami, Monaco, and Risk of Rain where music is in an exceptionally present role.

You know, I never really thought about how that's changed over the years in movies. The 80's in particular had really memorable soundtracks for the most part.

To this day, something like Axel F is still highly memorable. Most movies I've seen in recent years, I'd struggle to even remember if there was distinct music present.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

I'm also wondering why few games in general feature music with actual vocals and if they do, it's just a choir singing "notes" not actual lyrics. It's kind of related because I can think of more Japanese examples of actual songs in games.

Well, you gotta come up with lyrics, find & hire the right singer(s), and figure out where to put it where it won't interfere too much with what's happening in the game. It's definitely trickier than just doing a regular song, but it's definitely doable.

One of my favorite songs we've ever done for one of our games is our Team Rocket parody vocal song in Precipice of Darkness 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_W_WRaeiQbc