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Why don't you people read comic books?

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Dead said:
I don't see how Trades are less satisfying than single issue comics...that's completely backwards

Single issue comics are almost worthless for the most part. Trades give you one entire story arc with a start and end (most of the time). Its a much more satisfying read.

Eh, too much of a blanket statement in my case. There are some books I found more satisfying in trade, like Walking Dead for instance. For the most part I didn't find them as satisfying, though. You wait six months or more for a book, and you're probably going to finish it in less than an hour. Furthermore, if the book you picked it up is part of a crossover, it's fairly likely that the story's cohesion will break down at some point unless you pick up the entire crossover in trade and read them issue by issue in the order they were released.

I guess what I said mostly applies to superhero comics, there are a lot of great alternatives that read much better in trade...but superhero books are still designed for the monthly format and that's still the best way to read them. If you can put up with all the other bullshit, that is.
 
The whole month wait and page count definitely hurts. I don't understand why say Marvel doesn't just publish an X-Men monthly magazine with all the series in it, same with Avengers, etc. It just makes so much more sense...

Then again Marvel is now starting to price their 32 page comics at $3.99. A complete rip-off.
 
Dead said:
The whole month wait and page count definitely hurts. I don't understand why say Marvel doesn't just publish an X-Men monthly magazine with all the series in it, same with Avengers, etc. It just makes so much more sense...

Then again Marvel is now starting to price their 32 page comics at $3.99. A complete rip-off.

The major comic publishers have so little business sense that it is mind boggling. Their entire industry is sliding into the abyss and they are sitting on their hands. They've allowed an entire medium to be defined by one genre! Imagine only one major genre of films or novels, it's absolutely insane. And to make matters worse, as you pointed out, their only method of increasing revenue is to nickle and dime their customers - an incredibly short term and myopic strategy. They've made almost no attempts to grow the market (plugging fucking Captain America on the Colbert Report does not count) or restructure their industry to stop the consistent hemorrhaging of their core fan base. It would suck to see the American comic industry die out, but if it did, it would be something that the current publishers brought upon themselves.
 
Could comics survive the change to black and white? Manga being in black and white has never bothered me. It would be the only way to make a DC or Marvel Jump magazine feasible really. 300 page colour magazine every week would be very expensive.
 
favouriteflavour said:
Could comics survive the change to black and white? Manga being in black and white has never bothered me. It would be the only way to make a DC or Marvel Jump magazine feasible really. 300 page colour magazine every week would be very expensive.

I think Marvel and DC need to get out of periodicals alltogether. It's a completely dated format and as many people have stated, is too expensive for the limited and infrequent entertainment it provides. Of course, the majors would never make a drastic change like that.
 
I don't read them because each time I've read one, I invariably burn through it in no time at all. Even the good ones (like say 300) don't grip me in the way some meaty exposition would in novel form.

In fact, the only one I've ever enjoyed was Sandman: The Dream Hunters. This was a book I felt was fantastic precisely because its exposition wasn't confined to speech bubbles and, this is important, the art didn't get in the way of the story. It tickled all the areas of my brain a novel would while providing beautiful art in one stroke.

Sadly, gems like this seem few and far between. The majority of the comic book industry is selling a product fewer and fewer people want and this is dominated by never-ending super hero comics. It needs to change soon or it will die out.
 
favouriteflavour said:
Could comics survive the change to black and white? Manga being in black and white has never bothered me. It would be the only way to make a DC or Marvel Jump magazine feasible really. 300 page colour magazine every week would be very expensive.
I'd think that if comics went black and white they would probably make more money, but they would also kiss their hopes of expanding the readership goodbye.

They already have the hurdle of the "comic book nerd" stigma, Joe Blow most likely is going to be even more turned off by colorless comics on the shelves.
 
kame-sennin said:
The major comic publishers have so little business sense that it is mind boggling. Their entire industry is sliding into the abyss and they are sitting on their hands. They've allowed an entire medium to be defined by one genre! Imagine only one major genre of films or novels, it's absolutely insane. And to make matters worse, as you pointed out, their only method of increasing revenue is to nickle and dime their customers - an incredibly short term and myopic strategy. They've made almost no attempts to grow the market (plugging fucking Captain America on the Colbert Report does not count) or restructure their industry to stop the consistent hemorrhaging of their core fan base. It would suck to see the American comic industry die out, but if it did, it would be something that the current publishers brought upon themselves.

What?
 
kame-sennin said:
I think Marvel and DC need to get out of periodicals alltogether. It's a completely dated format and as many people have stated, is too expensive for the limited and infrequent entertainment it provides. Of course, the majors would never make a drastic change like that.

Monthlies are a huge revenue stream for Marvel and DC I would imagine. I don't see them making more money by getting rid of single issues nor do I see a market advantage.
 
kame-sennin said:
They've made almost no attempts to grow the market

Where are you getting this? Were the Iron Man and Dark Knight movies not massive? Have trailers for Watchmen not set sales on fire for the trade of that? Can you not now walk into any bookstore in North America and buy piles of trade paperbacks of just about everything? Are there not all kinds of licensed games getting the brands out there? Do they not have online subscription based digital download services?

They've made massive strides compared to where they were - and how they were looked at - back in 2000. The industry is actually much healthier than it was then overall; even though pamphlet sales have dropped, they serve as good advertising for the tpb market which has more than picked up the slack. A monthly book generates word of mouth for trades which only show up once every 6 months.
 
kame-sennin said:
Superheroes.

Both DC and Marvel (DC especially) publish plenty of non-superhero comics. Hell, the non-superhero comics put out by DC's Vertigo line are some of the best of the medium. There's no denying that superheroes dominate the industry, but they are far from being the only genre.
 
Blader5489 said:
Both DC and Marvel (DC especially) publish plenty of non-superhero comics. Hell, the non-superhero comics put out by DC's Vertigo line are some of the best of the medium. There's no denying that superheroes dominate the industry, but they are far from being the only genre.

While what you said was the truth, there's no denying that most (the less-informed) people see that US Comics = Superheroes. Heck, my friends saw Fables on my bookshelf and asked "What kind of superhero is this?"
 
Blader5489 said:
Both DC and Marvel (DC especially) publish plenty of non-superhero comics.

You're definitely right about DC, but Marvel? I looked through their current release list and the only non-superhero comics I saw were either from their Soleil import line or adaptations such as The Three Musketeers. I don't understand why they haven't been able to produce anything comparable to Vertigo.
 
leroy hacker said:
You're definitely right about DC, but Marvel? I looked through their current release list and the only non-superhero comics I saw were either from their Soleil import line or adaptations such as The Three Musketeers.

Yeah, Marvel doesn't have a lot, but there's Punisher MAX, Criminal, and the Stephen King adaptations.
 
LiveFromKyoto said:
Where are you getting this? Were the Iron Man and Dark Knight movies not massive? Have trailers for Watchmen not set sales on fire for the trade of that? Can you not now walk into any bookstore in North America and buy piles of trade paperbacks of just about everything? Are there not all kinds of licensed games getting the brands out there? Do they not have online subscription based digital download services?

Why are you shocked? The U.S. comicbook industry is in the toilet, just look at the sales posted in the OP. What you are talking about is brand and franchise development. Marvel and DC have both done a decent job of keeping the public interested in their marquee characters. What they haven't been able to do is convince that public to turn around and buy the monthly comics that those characters are featured in. A self contained comic like Watchmen might have a decent shot of picking up sales due to a movie release. But standard monthly comic sales have not gotten the shot in the arm many expected they would after the surge of interest in comicbook movies. If Marvel and DC can grow their franchises through other mediums, good for them - DC is essentially a babysitter for franchises Warner deems valuable, which is why they can take losses and experiment artistically - but none of this is turning the overall industry around. A future where Spider-man only exists in film, television, and videogames can not be deemed a success for comics, no matter how popular he becomes.

LiveFromKyoto said:
They've made massive strides compared to where they were - and how they were looked at - back in 2000. The industry is actually much healthier than it was then overall; even though pamphlet sales have dropped, they serve as good advertising for the tpb market which has more than picked up the slack. A monthly book generates word of mouth for trades which only show up once every 6 months.

And how do sales compare to the 80's and early 90's?

Anyway, my original argument was that the majors have shown incompetence in growing the comic industry. Your post actually supports my point. You say that trade paperbacks are picking up the slack, but are Marvel and DC really embracing the format, or are they just using it as a supplemental for sagging periodical sales? If there's one theme in this thread, it's that people who are interested in comics hate the periodical format. They hate the cost to value ratio, they are dissatisfied with the amount of content, and they dislike the lack of closure. What are Marvel and DC doing to alleviate these problems? They aren't switching over to trades, they aren't beefing up their periodicals, they haven't volumized their superhero lines (or they completely fumbled when they tried, i.e. the Ultimate line). They are stuck in an uneasy middle ground where readers have to buy multiple trades to take in entire storylines, single issues are being stretched out to accommodate trades, and there are massive reboot events seemingly every year to try and lower the barrier set by continuity.

And none of this addresses the unwillingness to appeal to wider audiences with more diverse content; in my opinion, the greatest inadequacy of the major publishers. DC deserves some credit here for the their Vertigo line, but their mainly preaching to the choir - targeting sophisticated comic readers, the core of their core market. And they don't push that line the way they do their mainline superheroes. There are a lot of people out there that would be interested in reading some kind of comicbook, and Marvel and DC aren't reaching them. You can call it whatever you want, but to me that sounds like failure.
 
favouriteflavour said:
Monthlies are a huge revenue stream for Marvel and DC I would imagine. I don't see them making more money by getting rid of single issues nor do I see a market advantage.

You might be right on that first point. And we can argue all day about how the industry should be structured. But the bottom line is, the American comic industry is not healthy, yet their are foreign comic markets that are. Some people say it's cultural, whilst Manga sells strongly in the U.S. I think it's safe to say that the American market needs to change in order to survive long term, and looking to foreign markets for inspiration is not a bad place to start.
 
So it turns out about half of my arguments in this thread were flat wrong:

Spoiler alert: Comic books are alive and kicking
Yes, super-hero movies are big. But another business that's booming for Marvel? Old-fashioned publishing.
By Richard Siklos, editor at large
Last Updated: October 13, 2008: 12:09 PM ET

LOS ANGELES (Fortune) -- The Dark Knight and Iron Man are the two biggest movies at the American multiplex so far this year. It's become rote that super-heroes rule the box office, just as the conventional wisdom is that the old print comic book is a dying art form that has found a new lease on life in its onscreen iterations.

But here's a secret about comics that has been hiding in plain view amid all the cinematic hoopla: At Marvel Entertainment (MVL), the industry's largest player, revenues for its print wares have been growing in double digits for the past three years and profit margins have been running at close to 40%. Plenty of magazine, book or newspaper publishers would put on a mask, cape or even giant bunny ears if that's what it took to generate those kinds of numbers - especially right now.

There's a few interesting messages in this, not least of which is the reminder that new formats of media don't necessarily replace old, and that some habits don't change as quickly as people think. And it probably doesn't hurt to be in a corner of the media world that is effectively a duopoly. Indeed, the figures are all the more striking considering that, by most industry estimates, some 60% of comic book sales still take place via one of the most archaic distribution systems in existence: ye olde comic booke shoppe.

Last week, I interviewed David Maisel, the chairman of Marvel Studios, as part of a PricewaterhouseCoopers event in Los Angeles. Marvel has a growth story to tell right now amid all the gloom: Following its decision to become a studio in its own right, it just announced that it's building its own studio facility here in Manhattan Beach, and unveiled a distribution deal with Paramount (which released "Iron Man"). Marvel has had a star-crossed past - it filed for bankruptcy protection twice in the 1990s during a period in which a speculative bubble among comic book collectors burst, sales plummeted and lots of comics shops shuttered.

A few incarnations later, Marvel has been one of the few breakout Hollywood stories of the past couple of years: Its stock is up nearly 90% over the past five years, a period during which media giants like Viacom (VIA), News Corp (NWS, Fortune 500), Time Warner (TWX, Fortune 500) and Disney (DIS, Fortune 500) all declined between 30% and 50% (Dreamworks Animation (DWA), a company that is probably closest to Marvel in terms of its scale and ambitions, is down 35% during that period.)

Marvel offers the only real glimpse at the economics of big-time comics publishing, because it and its main rival DC Comics together roughly split close to 80% of the market in new comic book sales. However, DC is a division of Warner Brothers (which, like Fortune and CNN, is owned by Time Warner), and you can find little mention of its financial performance within the media giant's releases, although its brands are going strong thanks in part to films like "The Dark Knight" and its upcoming "Watchmen." (A quick primer: Marvel publishes Spider-Man, X-Men, Hulk and Iron Man, while DC is the home of Superman and Batman).

Maisel acknowledged that much of the buzz on his company has been on its emergence as a film studio and the growth of its largest business: licensing its characters for toys, video games and theme parks. But he himself marveled (pun intended) at the enduring health of the publishing business, given that the distribution of comic books has been "artificially constrained" by the need for fans to largely find their way to comics stores. The upside of that scarcity, he added, is that "it sort of created a cult around comics: People felt like they were a part of a social group. When I was a kid, being a geek was being a geek. Now being a geek is cool."

In the quarter ended June 30, publishing accounted for $32 million of Marvel's $157 million in revenues, and $11.7 million of its $85.2 million in operating profit. (The bulk of the rest came from licensing - which generates even higher margins of more than 80% - since the spoils from "Iron Man" won't show up until the next couple of quarterly results.) Although its publishing revenue and profits declined in the first half of the year, the company has given guidance that it expects revenue growth in publishing between 3% and 7% for the year, and margins between 37% and 40%.

Maisel declined to specify to what extent his hit movies drive comic book sales, but it seems a stretch to suggest that cinematic success alone can take the credit. Neither is there much of a digital play at this point. Still, like DC, Marvel has been talking up the digital potential of its characters -- particularly, in Marvel's case, as far as putting its catalog - 70 years of stories featuring some 5,000 characters - online for fans to read.

In print, both companies have been putting greater emphasis on graphic novels that can sell into book retailers and have proved to be a boon for them to generate value by repackaging their back catalog - something the comics bigs were late to do compared to other media businesses like film and music.

In recent years, they've also modernized advertising sales to emphasize big-ticket categories like video games, not just mail-order services hawking joy buzzers and sea monkeys. And, given the mood of the world right now, their wares may even find new relevance: After all, Superman was created amid the gloom of the depression.

Last year, one of Marvel's biggest sellers was a series about the death of Captain America, one of its signature heroes. And guess what? Reports of the Captains's death, like the demise of comics, turned out to be a wee bit premature.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/10/news/companies/siklos_marvel.fortune/index.htm

I thought a few people who posted in this thread would appreciate this news, especially the OP.

I was definitely wrong about periodicals not being profitable :lol
 
I read them heavily in college (first half of the 90s). I'd like to now, but $3-4 for a comic is ridiculous. They created the market by pricing them so kids could afford them, then the collector's boom hit and they started pricing them for an adult audience, at the expense of the kids.

These days if I read anything I get the trade paperback instead of the individual issues. I can pick specific storylines that way, and they sit on a shelf better.
 
I read pretty heavily as a kid, but started to grow out of it once the comic shops around my town started to go out of business, which was around high school. Went to college in Santa Cruz and there were plenty of shops around so I started getting into Ultimate Spider-Man/X-Men but it was hard to keep up with the releases as time went on so I ended up quitting again. Tried again this past summer, but the whole weekly schedule of Trinity (despite knowing it was weekly) burnt me out.

I much prefer to collect trades now, as they're much more convenient, but the wait for some of them to come out is a bit annoying. I'd honestly prefer if trades came in big anthologies like they did for Golden/Silver-Age books as that way I can get through a bunch of stories without too much hassle.
 
Auron_Kale said:
I much prefer to collect trades now, as they're much more convenient, but the wait for some of them to come out is a bit annoying. I'd honestly prefer if trades came in big anthologies like they did for Golden/Silver-Age books as that way I can get through a bunch of stories without too much hassle.
Marvel is doing a pretty good job based on the expansion of the Omnibus line, although they are a bit pricey (extremely pricey if you buy retail). I think by the end of May the recent Iron Fist, a big chunk of Brubaker's DD run (half of Bendis' run is already done, odd the other half isn't announced yet), and the good Ultimates (1&2) are going to be in Omnibus form. Plus the other "archival" omnibii like X-Men (Lee, not Claremont), Wolverine, Secret Wars 2, and Moore's Captain Britain. And Marvel has indicated that they are going to ramp up on those.

DC OTOH...
 
I just quit again after getting back into it the last two or three years. I can't justify it anymore. $3 per issue, each issue taking 10 minutes to read if I'm lucky. And I wasn't the kind of guy that just read two books a month, I had a pull list of about fifteen. Stories dragged on for a year that could be summed up in two sentences including all sideplots. And they aren't worth re-reading to get more value. There was some fantastic stuff in there but the cost/benefit ratio didn't work for me. I don't think I'll ever try it again.
 
Zachack said:
Marvel is doing a pretty good job based on the expansion of the Omnibus line, although they are a bit pricey (extremely pricey if you buy retail). I think by the end of May the recent Iron Fist, a big chunk of Brubaker's DD run (half of Bendis' run is already done, odd the other half isn't announced yet), and the good Ultimates (1&2) are going to be in Omnibus form. Plus the other "archival" omnibii like X-Men (Lee, not Claremont), Wolverine, Secret Wars 2, and Moore's Captain Britain. And Marvel has indicated that they are going to ramp up on those.

DC OTOH...

Awesome! Good to know that at least Marvel is doing more of these.

I like a fair amount of DC characters, but good God is it hard to wait for trades when it seems like there's some huge crossover every other month or so. It's bad enough that they killed one of my favorite characters (Bart Allen) but I swear as the entire DC universe is undergoing its major upheaval it feels as there is absolutely no end in sight in the near future.
 
Hmm, saw I already responded in this thread, but I kinda lied a bit... I actually was a bit of a fan of "The Maxx" back in the day, and the subsequent MTV show. Picked it up on a whim and really got into it for whatever reason.
 
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