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[bob_arctor]

I play them all the time. Was just rockin ThunderForce III & IV last night matter of fact with some GleyLancer thrown in for good measure. I've been into hori's for a minute too--gotta go back to a vert soon (probably Garegga). So yeah, I play them a lot but I never stick to just one unless its Gaires which will always hold a special place in my gaming heart.

 

[Slygmous]

I used to play this kinda stuff as a kid, at the arcades and on the Amiga (I think?).
I generally sucked at them though, and seeing screenshots of more recent (post 90s) games with the bullets EVERYWHERE makes me never want to try them again.

I do still want to get into them though, eventually.

 

[BruiserBear]

The biggest reason I don't play classic shooters is because far too few are made. When good ones show up though, I buy them. Geometry Wars, Super Stardust, Radiant Silvergun, etc.

 

[gngf123]

I used to play this kinda stuff as a kid, at the arcades and on the Amiga (I think?).
I generally sucked at them though, and seeing screenshots of more recent (post 90s) games with the bullets EVERYWHERE makes me never want to try them again.

I do still want to get into them though, eventually.

They are different, but bullet hell games are a lot more intimidating than they are difficult to play. Typically the hit box of the player is 1px and even the bullet hit box is smaller than the size of the actual bullet. You should pick up one of the ones AlphaProspector posted. If you can handle the character designs, Exceed 3rd is particularly easy to get into. Just avoid playing in auto-bomb mode, as it makes the game too easy in my opinion.

 

[Slygmous]

They are different, but bullet hell games are a lot more intimidating than they are difficult to play. Typically the hit box of the player is 1px and even the bullet hit box is smaller than the size of the actual bullet. You should pick up one of the ones AlphaProspector posted. If you can handle the character designs, Exceed 3rd is particularly easy to get into. Just avoid playing in auto-bomb mode, as it makes the game too easy in my opinion.

Much appreciated. I'll at least have a starting point for when I decide to take the plunge.

 

[The Cartographer]

I'm terrible at them, but I still play them for the sheer insanity.

Same here.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

Hmm... well, the real reason I think most people don't bother playing shmups is because it's the sort of thing that really, really benefits from having a dedicated setup... which most people don't have, and don't want to put together because it's a pain in the ass, especially just for a genre they don't have any interest in.

Because yeah, you can play shmups on a TV, but who wants to do that? If it's not a horizontal shooter, you HAVE to TATE that sonbitch. And you should probably be sitting up close to the screen, not a mile away on your comfy couch. And a comfy couch is a bad choice for playing shooters, because you need to be at attention. Cuz shit's gonna go DOWN, son.

So basically, the ideal setup is an arcade cab. And that's problematic, because there are so many factors that make a normal gaming setup less than ideal for shmups that I can see why most people don't bother. It's just not that enjoyable on a standard setup.



I dunno. For me, the ideal is that I'll be sitting at a desk with a monitor dedicated to arcade games, with more than enough space to plunk down a stiff drink. And I really should order a pizza, eat it, and then wipe the grease on my arcade stick to get that authentic pizza place arcade feel. Maybe break a couple buttons, too.

 

[rpmurphy]

If there was a good arcade around here, I'd go every weekend. But my workplace has one of those multi-game units and I like playing Son Son, 1943, and Asteroids on it.

 

[danmaku]

I think Sine Mora and Jamestown did a pretty good job in making shmups more accessible for the average gamer. Good ideas they had:

Jamestown
- allow to save between stages
- force the player to raise the difficulty to unlock advanced stages *
- limited continues *

Sine Mora
- excellent graphics
- elaborate story mode, with different ships/characters, lots of dialogues and plot twists (in a shmup? yes!)
- save feature

Both games have harder modes for expert players, but they're not in the forefront. Those games are much less intimidating than your standard bullet hell fare, are cheap and sold through DD stores. To my knowledge, they did pretty well. They're not even remotely as good as the stuff from Cave or Raizing, but it's not like their features can't be copied in better games. It's a matter of price and presentation.

* why is this good? because it forces the player to repeat the same stages and get good at the game instead of credit feeding and calling quits. The beauty of shmups is getting a little better each time you play, not seeing the end screen.

 

[P90]

I stink at most shoot 'em ups. I need total casual mode for it to be fun.

For me, I find that FPS' have lost their luster.

 

[Shady859]

Love seeing these shmup threads popping up. More people need exposed to this genre and more region free and hopefully US releases.

Pumped for Ketsui PS3 import and going to grab DoDonPachi SaiDaiOuJou as well after seeing that it's RF on 360.

Edit: FYI to the person who thinks noone plays Tetris.... Seriously? I don't think it's ever been out of top 25 on iTunes, currently #16 paid and #5 for the free Tetris Blitz. It's been released multiple times on nearly every platform and still sells. Very easy to argue it's the greatest game of all time. Also NES version > all other Tetris versions.

 

[ringwaldhaze]

You got that right, I personally consider playing a game to make a number completely unrelated to gameplay go higher to be one of the most pointless endeavors there is.

But that number is dependent on whether you understand the scoring system (while this might just look like its going up and up, it likely involves combos dependent on enemy types, the type of shot equipped etc.) and how 'well' you then interact with the mechanics of the game. How is that not related to the 'gameplay'?

This isn't some dice roll in an RPG.

 

[djtiesto]

And to totally switch gears, why not experiment with multiple genres? The Guardian Legend is a great Zelda-ish game that effectively replaces the dungeons with STG sections. I'm sure there are many types of games that can be used as framing devices for STG gameplay.

There was a game called Sigma Star Saga on GBA that was a spiritual sequel to Guardian Legend... it was by Wayforward and came out near the end of the system's life. It had a top-down overworld and shooting sections, unfortunately the game suffered from some really stupid design decisions (random encounters in the overworld, where you'd be "beamed" into one of several different ships, to survive a short shooter stage... several of these ships were slow and large and not fun at all to play as).

I'd absolutely love to see a quality spiritual sequel to TGL.

 

[DXLelouch153]

i still play shooting games
just not ones that are too easy

 

[AlphaProspector]

Speaking of crossovers, Erst Kerf is a mix of a top down dungeon explorer and a STG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_dv-FguThw

You can use walls as cover and all and, to keep with the "arcade" feeling, there is a timer.

It has collectible weapons, multiple setups of said weapons, a shield to help you sustain hits and plenty of enemies and stuff. It's a shame the dev went silent after the release as the game could use an update/spiritual sequel.

 

[onken]

Repetitive, samey, the sort of challenge that requires you playing it over and over again to memorize the patterns.. never liked them even as a kid. I think the last one I played seriously was Bio Hazard Battle on the Genesis.

 

[Rick Dangerous]

soldner X was pretty decent for me. had a good time. Not enough power ups / weapons for my tastes. Would love some Xenon 3, X-out 2 or Z-out 2 though...

Hopefully Housemarque will bring something nice for the ps4.

 

[Tadger]

I loved nemesis or gradius as its known else where, I wish they would make a star fox styled gradius in 1080p 60fps.

 

[thumb]

Speaking of crossovers, Erst Kerf is a mix of a top down dungeon explorer and a STG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_dv-FguThw

You can use walls as cover and all and, to keep with the "arcade" feeling, there is a timer.

It has collectible weapons, multiple setups of said weapons, a shield to help you sustain hits and plenty of enemies and stuff. It's a shame the dev went silent after the release as the game could use an update/spiritual sequel.

This looks cool. Is it fun? Is it localized?

 

[Tain]

I don't like how often these games are seen as being "primarly about score".

These games are about being beaten, and score is a layer on top of that for those that want to put even more time in. The genre is really good at making games that are fun to compete for high scores in, but it's entirely possible to enjoy the genre by going for single credit clears. That's mostly what I do.

tl;dr - Modern shmups tend to be more accessible than they look. (Well Psikyo games are sort of in between and resemble older games in many ways at first but quickly turn absolutely brutal a few levels in)

and this is absolutely true.

 

[Kokonoe]

Tired of realistic graphics, would rather have cel-shading done like Wind Waker / Ni No Kuni.

 

[Retro_]

Biggest reason is that I own a PS3

but honestly the commitment level they seem to require has turned me away. Both in money and time.

I find myself preferring to dedicate my time to multiplayer games like fighting games or League of Legends, or the occasional action game.

I don't think I could commit to learning them

 

[Victrix]

Speaking as someone who did play them heavily and loves the genre but doesn't play anymore...

1) Little anime girls is disgusting. I don't harp on it much here on GAF, and people are free to enjoy it, but the end result is I simply avoid the games. The fact that it infested shooters of all genres makes no sense to me whatsoever.

2) Bullet hell to the extreme. There don't seem to be any atmospheric shooters in the style of Gradius, Xexex, Axelay, R-Type, etc. made any more, and that's a shame. Flying my cool shooty ship through cool environments with amazing music was always a pleasure. Trying to play a bullet hell shooter in 1cc mode is draining and exhausting, not relaxing or invigorating. When I'm in the mood for them, they're great, but not all the time.

The genre stagnated badly, and I can't think of many western games that successfully picked up the mantle (Jamestown?). Even if it was an eastern only phenomena, it still needs to innovate to attract a healthy userbase, rather than fighting for a slowly diminishing old fanbase.

 

[Brobzoid]

Speaking of crossovers, Erst Kerf is a mix of a top down dungeon explorer and a STG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_dv-FguThw

You can use walls as cover and all and, to keep with the "arcade" feeling, there is a timer.

It has collectible weapons, multiple setups of said weapons, a shield to help you sustain hits and plenty of enemies and stuff. It's a shame the dev went silent after the release as the game could use an update/spiritual sequel.

While entirely unrelated that video reminded me that there is a indie turn-based RPG coming out that has a bit of an earthbound thing going on where enemies attacks with shmup patterns that you have to dodge in a little box in the HUD. It seems very interesting.

Undertale
here is a run-through of the demo with commentary

 

[Mileena]

because they're boring

 

[AlphaProspector]

This looks cool. Is it fun? Is it localized?

Yeah, I loved it and even 1-life cleared the entire game. Comes with 2 extra stages too. Unfortunately, nope, it's not localized and like I mentioned, the dev has gone silent after release. I always wanted to contact the composer too but, sadly, it also went silent not so long ago. You can still buy the game at Tokyo Shmups though. (A site that sells retail doujin STGs for PC.)

Tired of realistic graphics, would rather have cel-shading done like Wind Waker / Ni No Kuni.

Ever tried Radirgy or Karous by the now defunct Milestone?

There is also Flying Red Barrel, localized by Rockin' Android: http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-FRB/flying-red-barrel

Shame there aren't more done in that style.

 

[Bending_Unit_22]

But that number is dependent on whether you understand the scoring system (while this might just look like its going up and up, it likely involves combos dependent on enemy types, the type of shot equipped etc.) and how 'well' you then interact with the mechanics of the game. How is that not related to the 'gameplay'?

This isn't some dice roll in an RPG.

Sure, as is everything else about a game, but as I said I think its a pointless gaming endeavor and also I don't knock those who love it, I just don't have any interest in it.

 

[Victrix]

Sure, as is everything else about a game, but as I said I think its a pointless gaming endeavor and also I don't knock those who love it, I just don't.

Nah I fully agree with this - if performing the scoring mechanic well actually DID something, it'd be way more interesting.

At most it will get you enough extra lives to 1cc the game, but that's not even universally true, and typically by the time you can score that well, you can already beat the game.

Now often, playing for score is also the right way to play the game in general, but not universally so, and just as often playing for score is more difficult and not at all intuitive or obvious unless you look up more information about it online.

And even if you got to all that effort, the payoff may well be... a higher score. That's not good enough.

That's really not good enough for today's achievement motivated wow raised gaming public who need to be back patted and fed with carrots regularly to engage with almost any game, especially a solitary, difficult game.

What's sad is that I don't believe the fundamental mechanics in a shooter are obsolete - the games are fun. It's that everything else in them needs to be pulled screaming and kicking into the 21st century of game design, and given that they're all but dead in the western game design sphere and completely incestuously designed in the east... I don't hold much hope for them.

Ironic that I'm writing this given that my OP for shooters in general is one of the oldest still active threads on GAF period, but hey, sometimes you fall out of love :<

 

[Kokonoe]

Ever tried Radirgy or Karous by the now defunct Milestone?

There is also Flying Red Barrel, localized by Rockin' Android: http://www.gamersgate.com/DD-FRB/flying-red-barrel

Shame there aren't more done in that style.

I actually misread the thread, I figured this was about Third Person / First Person Shooters. I'm using to seeing "SHMUPS" when referred to these types of games, but I am in fact still into SHMUPS and I'll definitely check those out.

 

[ringwaldhaze]

...

I'm interested in seeing you expand these points more. Specifically, what you think the game should reward you with for playing well, what elements of '21st century game design' you want to see, and the impact Western developers making these games could have.

I mean this sincerely, too.

 

[Tain]

At most it will get you enough extra lives to 1cc the game, but that's not even universally true, and typically by the time you can score that well, you can already beat the game.

I haven't found this to be the case. Most newer STGs just give you a couple extends and you can score well enough to get them without putting in much time. Sooner than beating the game, for sure.

 

[redcrayon]

Does Contra IV/uprising count? I enjoyed them.

 

[Sayter]

I uses to love playing them. There haven't been any real good ones in a while.

 

[Victrix]

I'm interested in seeing you expand these points more. Specifically, what you think the game should reward you with for playing well, what elements of '21st century game design' you want to see, and, the inpact Western developers making these games could have.

I mean this sincerely, too.

It's not something simple I can answer - a simple analogy would be what if FPS games had become hugely popular in Japan*, what sort of whacky improvements or gameplay explorations would we have seen by now? Because they aren't, we don't. Same story on this side of the ocean with shooters.

I mean what if FPS games integrated experience points and levels? Pff, that could never work.

Oddly a surprisingly good analogue are roguelike games, which have seen something of a renaissance in the last few years. In theory, roguelikes are brutally difficult and you only have one life to get through the entire game, which isn't conceptually far off from attempting a 1cc clear of a difficult shooter.

They're not universally popular, but gameplay elements from them have been picked up by other genres, and several of the most popular have smoothed over some of the rougher edges of permadeath gameplay with a variety of methods - and Diablo, of course, is the ultimate inheritor of basic roguelike gameplay that became hugely popular - yet I certainly can't think of any remotely similar match for shooters, unless you just want to argue that fps games are that evolution.

But in quite a few years of following japans shooter scene, I never saw that sort of evolution (with rare exceptions, Senko no Ronde was pretty sweet... but uh, go google image search that for yet another example of god damnit japan - and that was actually done in sprite based 2d many years before!), and I gradually lost interest in the genre.

It's not so much 'here's a silver bullet that will fix the genre' as 'we need continued developer interest to inject fresh ideas and experimentation into the genre'. Even when it's a dedicated niche of developers (roguelikes), you can still see healthy innovation over a long enough stretch of time, but I wasn't seeing that in shooters.

I suppose its possible there are a bunch of amazingly awesome shooters that I've missed in the last few years for lack of interest, but if there are, I haven't heard anyone shouting their praises from the rooftops.

And frankly, it's hard to create ardent new fans in the west when the offerings are screens filled with buckets of bullets and little girls flashing their panties at you. The first is going to turn off a good chunk of potential players straight away (this is too hard/stupid/what the hell is going on), the second is going to turn away some more (this is creepy/weird/what the hell is going on).

Even the names are a problem. 'Hey dude, check out Cave Story' is easier to absorb than 'Hey dude, check out Mushihimesama Futari Black Label!' (I guess you could point them to Bug Panic :V Just don't google image search Mushi either!)

(*Japan not being used as a synonym for 'the east' here, I think I've kept a keener eye on gaming developments out of Korea than Japan recently, for a variety of reasons)

 

[oneida]

Sine Mora was the last great shmup I've played. It looks and plays fantastically, especially on PSV. The game is so dynamic, visually and mechanically - I wish more games from that genre tried reinventions like Sine Mora.

Again, reflexive gameplay, beautiful aesthetics and design - new mechanics = awesome!

Haha no.

 

[Risette]

It's not something simple I can answer - a simple analogy would be what if FPS games had become hugely popular in Japan*, what sort of whacky improvements or gameplay explorations would we have seen by now? Because they aren't, we don't. Same story on this side of the ocean with shooters.

I mean what if FPS games integrated experience points and levels? Pff, that could never work.

Oddly a surprisingly good analogue are roguelike games, which have seen something of a renaissance in the last few years. In theory, roguelikes are brutally difficult and you only have one life to get through the entire game, which isn't conceptually far off from attempting a 1cc clear of a difficult shooter.

They're not universally popular, but gameplay elements from them have been picked up by other genres, and several of the most popular have smoothed over some of the rougher edges of permadeath gameplay with a variety of methods - and Diablo, of course, is the ultimate inheritor of basic roguelike gameplay that became hugely popular - yet I certainly can't think of any remotely similar match for shooters, unless you just want to argue that fps games are that evolution.

But in quite a few years of following japans shooter scene, I never saw that sort of evolution (with rare exceptions, Senko no Ronde was pretty sweet... but uh, go google image search that for yet another example of god damnit japan - and that was actually done in sprite based 2d many years before!), and I gradually lost interest in the genre.

It's not so much 'here's a silver bullet that will fix the genre' as 'we need continued developer interest to inject fresh ideas and experimentation into the genre'. Even when it's a dedicated niche of developers (roguelikes), you can still see healthy innovation over a long enough stretch of time, but I wasn't seeing that in shooters.

I suppose its possible there are a bunch of amazingly awesome shooters that I've missed in the last few years for lack of interest, but if there are, I haven't heard anyone shouting their praises from the rooftops.

And frankly, it's hard to create ardent new fans in the west when the offerings are screens filled with buckets of bullets and little girls flashing their panties at you. The first is going to turn off a good chunk of potential players straight away (this is too hard/stupid/what the hell is going on), the second is going to turn away some more (this is creepy/weird/what the hell is going on).

Even the names are a problem. 'Hey dude, check out Cave Story' is easier to absorb than 'Hey dude, check out Mushihimesama Futari Black Label!' (I guess you could point them to Bug Panic :V Just don't google image search Mushi either!)

(*Japan not being used as a synonym for 'the east' here, I think I've kept a keener eye on gaming developments out of Korea than Japan recently, for a variety of reasons)

bullet canceling

 

[AcceptableGhost]

3. Lack of gameplay innovation.
Compare the original Quake to Call of Duty 4 in terms of just how many new systems, weapons, and multiplayer innovations on offer. In comparison, modern shmups don't feel radically different from those I played in arcades as a kid.

proof alone that change isn't always good

 

[Victrix]

Actually the Super Hexagon boss in WoW is the perfect example of awesome hybridization, come to think of it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMJNRZxe2o8#t=0m25s

Now we just need a level where you're flying on your cloud serpent dodging crazy 3d patterns while spewing bullets

Oh wait, Oculus and Malygos sucked...

(also I love that both Diablo and WoW come up, Blizzard, truly the masters of stealing shit and making it betterinnovation)

proof alone that change isn't always good

Yes, far better for a genre to fade into obscurity and die than to become a multi-million selling franchise and a cornerstone of the entire gaming industry

 

[AcceptableGhost]

Yes, far better for a genre to fade into obscurity and die than to become a multi-million selling franchise and a cornerstone of the entire gaming industry

fps dies when halo came out

i dont really care about sales numbers

 

[Tain]

Yes, far better for a genre to fade into obscurity and die than to become a multi-million selling franchise and a cornerstone of the entire gaming industry

That's what's at the core of demanding a genre rewind, throw out, and rebuild in another direction, though. Why would the existing dedicated care about developers that no longer focus on making the kinds of games that they love?

 

[Artanisix]

There's not enough uniquely awesome ones like Ikaruga, imo.

Ikaruga is the best and I played it for hundreds of hours.

 

[oneida]

There's not enough uniquely awesome ones like Ikaruga, imo.

Ikaruga is the best and I played it for hundreds of hours.

I have to leave this thread

 

[Victrix]

That's what's at the core of demanding a genre rewind, throw out, and rebuild in another direction, though. Why would the existing dedicated care about developers that no longer focus on making the kinds of games that they love?

Outright genre death is the DNA of that genre fading into obscurity entirely - something I'd be hard pressed to argue hasn't happened with shooters already anyway.

I don't consider it some great tragedy if DOOM fans aren't playing the latest Halo/Call of Duty when millions of new players got into FPS gaming with those games.

I can't think of any remotely similar example for japanese shooters. I can't even think of the last person who I met that talked to me about japanese shooters who wasn't introduced to the genre by me!

I mean look at this thread - these are hardcore gamers, and there are a lot of people here saying 'whut?'. That's not the sign of a healthy genre, even if there games still coming out.

Admittedly, if I made a similar thread on roguelikes, the response might be similar, given that it is also a niche genre, but, and this is important, there are a lot lot lot more games that I can point to with mechanics or inspiration lifted directly from roguelikes, and I can't say the same for japanese shooters. I'm not even sure I would want to, given the lack of innovation in the formula!

If we're going to get really philosophical then like I said, you could argue that tps/fps games are the some of the inheritors of the legacy (action packed, flashy games, pushing the limit of the hardware at the time), and japanese shooters are the great grandparents (Nethack to Diablo). Panzer Dragoon style games would be another obvious descendant, though not an especially popular one overall.

Which would mean ultimately that they did evolve and the remaining games that are strictly true to the formula are simply appealing to a necessarily small niche market (in the same way that Brutal Doom or Brogue will let you experience Doom or Rogue in a new way)

I don't know if that's true or not though. I do know that I would happily play a new game along the lines of Axelay, RType, Metal Black, Gradius Gaiden or Xexex. I still think DDP style games can be pretty badass.

But whatever I think of where the genre went astray or stagnated, it's clear that as it stands, it isn't hugely popular and it doesn't appear to be taking any steps towards evolving to do so (I mean if you know I'm wrong, feel free to point me to some shooters released in the last few years that really blew your mind, I'll be happy to try them!)

 

[Hispanicguy]

I've always been a fan of this genre.

I remember playing Gigawing at Chinatown Fair yearssss ago. Even if I sucked at it, it was just FUN. I didn't care about high scores...I just wanted to SURVIVE! lol

I also remember times where, when waiting for my turn on DDR, I would go play a few rounds of 1942.

Nowadays, I still enjoy playing them from time to time but I could never invest enough time/patience to learn them.

Geometry Wars 2 is the best twin-stick shooter I've ever played. This game is PERFECT. For me, it's like Tetris where, years from now, I could play and it'll still be just as addictive.

Speaking of Tetris, I've been playing Tetris Blitz on iOS and it's fun and it keeps me busy on train rides to work. I still have an urge to pick up a Game Boy though...

Sine Mora was great and I loved how they handled the achievements. Gets pretty damn hard though. If I pick up a Vita soon, that's one of the games I'll be purchasing.

Lately, most of my time spent on shmups has been on iOS devices. Here are 2 that may not be as well known:

Danmaku Unlimited 2
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/danmaku-unlimited-2-bullet/id580663396?mt=8
(This is actually on sale for .99! A must buy for any shmup fan.)

Plasma Sky
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/plasma-sky-rad-retro-arcade/id575310539?mt=8

I try to fill my iPod/iPad with as many shmups as I can.

This genre will always have a place in my heart so even if I don't play it as much, I still would like to see them being made.

 

[Risette]

I remember playing Gigawing at Chinatown Fair yearssss ago. Even if I sucked at it, it was just FUN. I didn't care about high scores...I just wanted to SURVIVE! lol

Gigawing did a good job of making the numbers in scoring so insanely huge that it was satisfying no matter how well you scored, I felt. You didn't have to score well to get ginourmous numbers that felt good to achieve.

More games need scoring into quintillions.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Speaking as someone who did play them heavily and loves the genre but doesn't play anymore...

1) Little anime girls is disgusting. I don't harp on it much here on GAF, and people are free to enjoy it, but the end result is I simply avoid the games. The fact that it infested shooters of all genres makes no sense to me whatsoever.

2) Bullet hell to the extreme. There don't seem to be any atmospheric shooters in the style of Gradius, Xexex, Axelay, R-Type, etc. made any more, and that's a shame. Flying my cool shooty ship through cool environments with amazing music was always a pleasure. Trying to play a bullet hell shooter in 1cc mode is draining and exhausting, not relaxing or invigorating. When I'm in the mood for them, they're great, but not all the time.

The genre stagnated badly, and I can't think of many western games that successfully picked up the mantle (Jamestown?). Even if it was an eastern only phenomena, it still needs to innovate to attract a healthy userbase, rather than fighting for a slowly diminishing old fanbase.

I agree with this. I prefer the classic and more adventurous feel and sense of atmosphere of older shooters of the 80s through to the mid-90s. After it become more focused upon bullet patterns rather than targets, I started to lose interest. BH is a different animal and has a great deal of depth to offer, but still not a replacement for the early designs which favored an experience that is more of a challenging ride than an ordeal.

 

[astroturfing]

soldner X was pretty decent for me. had a good time. Not enough power ups / weapons for my tastes. Would love some Xenon 3, X-out 2 or Z-out 2 though...

Hopefully Housemarque will bring something nice for the ps4.

Söldner-X 2 was criminally underrated, pretty sure there's not even a thread for it. in fact i don't think i've ever even seen anyone mention it anywhere... i just noticed in the PSN store one day years ago and bought it on a whim.

really fun game IMO, played the hell out of it, got all the trophies (non-DLC) too, which were perfectly challenging. cool levels, cool music, fun bosses etc. difficulty level adjusts to how you play, which worked great at least for me. when i was in the zone it became more harder and surviving just felt awesome.

 

[japtor]

Hmm... well, the real reason I think most people don't bother playing shmups is because it's the sort of thing that really, really benefits from having a dedicated setup... which most people don't have, and don't want to put together because it's a pain in the ass, especially just for a genre they don't have any interest in.

Because yeah, you can play shmups on a TV, but who wants to do that? If it's not a horizontal shooter, you HAVE to TATE that sonbitch. And you should probably be sitting up close to the screen, not a mile away on your comfy couch. And a comfy couch is a bad choice for playing shooters, because you need to be at attention. Cuz shit's gonna go DOWN, son.

So basically, the ideal setup is an arcade cab. And that's problematic, because there are so many factors that make a normal gaming setup less than ideal for shmups that I can see why most people don't bother. It's just not that enjoyable on a standard setup.



I dunno. For me, the ideal is that I'll be sitting at a desk with a monitor dedicated to arcade games, with more than enough space to plunk down a stiff drink. And I really should order a pizza, eat it, and then wipe the grease on my arcade stick to get that authentic pizza place arcade feel. Maybe break a couple buttons, too.

This is a good point, and actually applies to me even though I love the genre. I've barely played the 360 ports just cause for whatever reason I can't get into them. This is why I'm getting some stuff to hook it all up to my cab. Hell with my boards I usually only play a few credits a day at most, like maybe an hour cumulatively.

And while that doesn't sound like much, I think it's actually the most gaming I do currently and could contribute to why I like it so much. I love other stuff too of course (god knows I've spent a crapload of time in Fire Emblem) but in terms of lifestyle the quick hard shooter gameplay fits in better for me a lot of the time.

But that number is dependent on whether you understand the scoring system (while this might just look like its going up and up, it likely involves combos dependent on enemy types, the type of shot equipped etc.) and how 'well' you then interact with the mechanics of the game. How is that not related to the 'gameplay'?

This isn't some dice roll in an RPG.

And even if you just play for survival without knowing anything about the scoring system, the score can still be a decent indicator of your progress beyond just what level you were on.

Yes, far better for a genre to fade into obscurity and die than to become a multi-million selling franchise and a cornerstone of the entire gaming industry

That's what's at the core of demanding a genre rewind, throw out, and rebuild in another direction, though. Why would the existing dedicated care about developers that no longer focus on making the kinds of games that they love?

Yeah it's different when dealing with a niche. FPSs were big and became bigger, but with a niche there's a good chance you'll both lose your original userbase while not capturing any new users and end up more fucked than ever. (The animeish pandering can definitely stand to be toned down though...)

The fighting game resurgence mentioned before in the thread was an interesting example cause they're still for super hardcore players with increasingly complex intricacies. The big thing with them was competition, so online play is what helped boost them a bunch I think (after the arcade decline hurt them). With shmups, from reading a bunch of posts from the people that used to play, it sounds the issue for many is that it's gotten mostly centralized around the bullet hell sub-genre vs having more variety before.

And another note on that, there's still the Darius games being released which more resemble the older style of games many seem to like. Plus the giant robot fish stuff is still cool.

Admittedly, if I made a similar thread on roguelikes, the response might be similar, given that it is also a niche genre, but, and this is important, there are a lot lot lot more games that I can point to with mechanics or inspiration lifted directly from roguelikes, and I can't say the same for japanese shooters. I'm not even sure I would want to, given the lack of innovation in the formula!

If we're going to get really philosophical then like I said, you could argue that tps/fps games are the some of the inheritors of the legacy (action packed, flashy games, pushing the limit of the hardware at the time), and japanese shooters are the great grandparents (Nethack to Diablo). Panzer Dragoon style games would be another obvious descendant, though not an especially popular one overall.

Which would mean ultimately that they did evolve and the remaining games that are strictly true to the formula are simply appealing to a necessarily small niche market (in the same way that Brutal Doom or Brogue will let you experience Doom or Rogue in a new way)

I don't know if that's true or not though. I do know that I would happily play a new game along the lines of Axelay, RType, Metal Black, Gradius Gaiden or Xexex. I still think DDP style games can be pretty badass.

That's a sort of realistic view if you ultimately go by history and breaking things down into elements. In a general sense way back they were basically the only shooting games, while now if you want to shoot at shit and blow stuff up there's a lot of different game types for that now.

 

[Victrix]

Yeah the setup point is also really true - its certainly easier to rotate a computer monitor these days than it was a giant CRT or tv in the past, but it's still not anything like a normal usage case for most people. Vertical bullet hell shooters have a double accessibility whammy in that case.

And Darius does own, anyone who ever got the sit down experience of the awesome multi-screen cabinets was a good time

edit: Also, livestreaming could/should have been another chance for shooters to pick up fans, and that hasn't happened either

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Interesting thread. I still enjoy them, I do limit credits (credit feeding is dull) and try to get as good at them as I can but I usually end up hitting a wall past a certain point that I don't have the skill or time to overcome and I stop playing. I'm ok with that, it doesn't stop me buying them but I can see how it doesn't appeal to others. The more casual fans of these games just don't get as much out of them as the truly dedicated do and they're not going to go out of their way to import hardware and games.