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[Opiate]

Another important point is that there are very few single characteristics that are universally preferred.

For example, I would describe myself as a serious person; that is, I take life seriously and don't believe the purpose of life is to enjoy it and have as much fun as you can before you die. I am quite aware that many women find this perspective extremely unappealing, and many will explicitly state that they prefer "care free" people who are "fun to be around."

On the other hand, there are also women who take life seriously and want a partner who feels the same. I have met and dated several of them. For these women, the "care free" Epicureans are typically unappealing.

As other examples, some men prefer agressive, dominant women, while others find them extraordinarily unappealing; some women like very muscular men while others find the look disgusting; some people are impressed by the money a drug lord makes, while others would find their career ethically repulsive.

What we really mean when we say something is "appealing" is that it is appealing to a broad swathe of the population, or the broadest possible swathe of the population. If that is your only goal, then yes, certain specific behaviors are to be adopted.

 

[Seraphinianus]

Wow. Here i have been walking around my entire life thinking a "PUA" was someone who was good at getting laid. Apparantly there's a lot more to it.

So what do you call a person who never walks home alone from a pub/club and doesnt do all the theorycraft behind "PUA"?

they're a person who was doing the theory behind PUA, but naturally. PUA just breaks the whole thing down into a logic that coldly leads to sex, if you can implement it into conversation well enough.

 

[Devolution]

She hasn't said no. The first time I slept with my former ex she said she had wanted to previously but I hadn't really pushed hard enough on previous nights. You're confusing "no" with possible flirtation.

Whoa whoa whoa hold the fuck up. What.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Whoa whoa whoa hold the fuck up. What.

No it's okay. It's pua not rape.

 

[thekad]

What we really mean when we say something is "appealing" is that it is appealing to a broad swathe of the population, or the broadest possible swathe of the population.

It's scary that some (in this thread) would call this thinking sexist.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Whoa whoa whoa hold the fuck up. What.

Did you even read my example? Looking forward to your explosive reaction. See you there.

 

[Devolution]

Did you even read my example? Looking forward to your explosive reaction. See you there.

No I've been reading the whole conversation, you seem to be agreeing with the premise of PUA guys who instead of backing the hell off, you just pressure her more because you know better than she does right?

 

[marrec]

they're a person who was doing the theory behind PUA, but naturally. PUA just breaks the whole thing down into a logic that coldly leads to sex, if you can implement it into conversation well enough.

PUA has no basis in science or logic, don't throw that around.

 

[Inflammable Slinky]

I think it's unfair to pre-judge people trying this advice, but sure. But like I've said I think a lot of this is semantics. The guys giving the advice seem to be using heated language to describe pretty common things. This just sounds like two people hooking up for the first time to me in a lot of ways, with some random buzz words thrown in to trigger all the rape whistles in our heads. Obviously, no is no. However, I don't think this guy is describing "no." "I don't even know you!" is not "no" (at least without context) it could just be "this is so much fun/adventurous!"



When did she say no in his example. See my above comment.

EDIT: "I don't know you enough" does seem rather "no" though. I will admit that. I think he does leave open a lot of grey area though like I said above. It's all about context obviously. People should be able to tell "no." I don't think this guy is talking about "no." I think he's talking about part of normal flirtation.

GIGANTIC FUCKING TRIGGER WARNING

http://www.pualingo.com/pua-definitions/last-minute-resistance-lmr/

For example, a woman might come home with a guy she met at the club, and may even make out with him, but resist when it comes to taking off her panties or bra. They can even both be naked in his bed, but she might still say that she doesn’t want to have sex.

Again, LMR is the concept, codified and acronymed, that a woman's consent to having sex must be overcome. That's rape.

And I can't believe I have to write this, but here we are:


DON'T

FUCKING

RAPE

 

[Sanky Panky]

Hints and tricks to make you appear confident and with value as a man... PUA works but it is not sustainable if you have to force these things.

There is no such thing as "natural PUA". It's just being confident in what you want and being sure of your value as a romantic partner and human being. Women detect that a mile away.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

I think it's unfair to pre-judge people trying this advice, but sure. But like I've said I think a lot of this is semantics. The guys giving the advice seem to be using heated language to describe pretty common things. This just sounds like two people hooking up for the first time to me in a lot of ways, with some random buzz words thrown in to trigger all the rape whistles in our heads. Obviously, no is no. However, I don't think this guy is describing "no." "I don't even know you!" is not "no" (at least without context) it could just be "this is so much fun/adventurous!"

EDIT: "I don't know you enough" does seem rather "no" though. I will admit that. I think he does leave open a lot of grey area though like I said above. It's all about context obviously. People should be able to tell "no." I don't think this guy is talking about "no." I think he's talking about part of normal flirtation.

When you're making out with someone who is all like "This is too soon!", "I didn't think I would do this" and all that, it's pretty clear when she's just playing around, and when she just doesn't want to experimentate further than that. I think it's very obvious this is just telling you to keep trying until she either agrees to fuck, or just kinda goes "that was a nice make out, kthxbye".

I mean, come on. He needs to openly tell you "Don't do this! This is rape and therefore bad!"

It's scary that some (in this thread) would call this thinking sexist.

If you're saying it for what I said earlier, I said it's sexist if you think only women do it. Everyone does.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

No I've been reading the whole conversation, you seem to be agreeing with the premise of PUA guys who instead of backing the hell off, you just pressure her more because you know better than she does right?

That's not what I've said at all. I've said a guy should be able to tell what "no" is and I think what this guy is talking about encompasses mostly things that aren't "no." I think his example is shit, but see what I said about "I barely know you!" Do you read that as "no" or "this is exciting and adventurous." It depends on context. One requires you to keep flirting/hooking up with the girl and the other means back the fuck off. The point here is the guy is trusting the people taking his advice to not be fucking morons and know the difference.

Good to see you were actually reading what I wrote though. Reading comprehension is fun!

When you're making out with someone who is all like "This is too soon!", "I didn't think I would do this" and all that, it's pretty clear when she's just playing around, and when she just doesn't want to experimentate further than that. I think it's very obvious this is just telling you to keep trying until she either agrees to fuck, or just kinda goes "that was a nice make out, kthxbye".

I mean, come on. He needs to openly tell you "Don't do this! This is rape and therefore bad!"

If you're saying it for what I said earlier, I said it's sexist if you think only women do it. Everyone does.

See Devo, other people read and are able to handle nuance.

 

[Opiate]

No I've been reading the whole conversation, you seem to be agreeing with the premise of PUA guys who instead of backing the hell off, you just pressure her more because you know better than she does right?

He's not saying he knows better than her, he's saying he did not know better than her. She said "no" out loud, but meant "yes" and wanted him to push for it; he did not know that.

He's providing an empirical example of where resistance from some women may not be actual disinterest but could instead be a desire to make men push for it; someone might do this because it shows that they really want it.

 

[thekad]

gretszky laid out an example. Are you just choosing to ignore it?

 

[Vermillion]

PUA has no basis in science or logic, don't throw that around.

For a such a smart guy, political opinion/emotion cloud your posts more than anything else.

 

[cdyhybrid]

So no doesn't mean no?

Learn something new everyday.

It's true. Just ask Kobe Bryant.

 

[yacobod]

are we seriously debating guys going out to bars/clubs trying to get laid?

 

[CorvoSol]

Actually, guys like that kind of thing because they like the idea of having sex and aren't good with women. I strongly doubt it's more complicated than that.

If I weren't married, and I believed it actually worked, I would probably do it. The actual "secret" of this which convinces dudes that it works is that all of these methods encourage you to hit on every single girl at any given time. It's just a matter of persistence - if you hit on every girl, you'll start to get dates because eventually one of them will say yes.

This is quite literally the only real reason why this method works. After that, they just get better with women. It doesn't really matter what these dudes are doing or saying - if you hit on 50 women, the law of averages just says you'll get at least one date./

Note to self. Minimum of 50.

 

[Bossun]

So does it mean that the woman thinks she's going out with an alpha man than when they get to know each other she finally learn that he is shallow, or someone without conversation and no personality?

That's like going from great to not bad. That must be a huge disappointment.

I prefer my method. Being shy as fuck and then starting to show my true self as I get to know the lady... at least she goes from not bad to good.

Edit : Nevermind it seems their only goal is to get their thingy in some vajayjay.

 

[Barbacoatl]

You realize that all of your advice boils down to someone who is unsuccessful with women having to change themselves to fit a type that you believe women in general are attracted to.

Alternatively, these unsuccessful fellas can try doing shit and see how that works out. Maybe they hope to find a girl as burned out as them and live the life? "The world won't change for me, I shall not change for it". It's naive to think only supermodel girls want guys with their shit together. The fuck? This is not about my idea of what women find attractive. Ask yourself: in case shit went down, who would I'd like to be next to? the guy (or girl) who pretends or the one who actually is? How would I know if he's pretending? well, luckily for us, fakers come through transparently most of the time, and even when they don't, their web of lies doesn't last a lifetime.

 

[Seraphinianus]

PUA has no basis in science or logic, don't throw that around.

i'm not talking about formal philosophical logic. things can have their own logic. PUA is "if she does this, do that" all along on a neat little road to having sex, using tips that are culled from other people's successes in various situations to statistically increase one's chances of getting it on. that sounds like logic to me.

 

[marathonfool]

I'm not going to defend PUA, but some of the stuff they are elaborating on body language is quite valuable not just in terms of picking up women.

There are misogynistic elements such as using language like "training" that evokes dog training. In general, from reading the Neil Strauss book, the individuals are messed up themselves.

Either way, if a woman wants to cake on heavy makeup, wear short tight clothing, or show cleavage and if a man wants to put up a personality facade going through patterns of socialization to attract the opposite sex, it's on them. PUA advice is just the grease that turns the wheels. There are deeper psychological and sociological underpinnings. The PUA culture is merely a symptom, not cause or cure.

 

[thekad]

Alternatively, these unsuccessful fellas can try doing shit and see how that works out. Maybe they hope to find a girl as burned out as them and live the life? "The world won't change for me, I shall not change for it". It's naive to think only supermodel girls want guys with their shit together. The fuck? This is not about my idea of what women find attractive. Ask yourself: in case shit went down, who would I'd like to be next to? the guy (or girl) who pretends or the one who actually is? How would I know if he's pretending? well, luckily for us fakers come through transparently most of the time, and even when they don't, their web of lies doesn't last a lifetime.

I'm not saying that your idea of what women find attractive is wrong. Women do like guys who "have their shit together." I'm saying that this is no different than what the OP/PUA is stating: "Be this way because women like it."

Either way, you're going to have to change yourself (or as Devolution puts it, "work on yourself") to possess these qualities that the opposite sex is attracted to if you don't already possess said qualities.

 

[defel]

Another important point is that there are very few single characteristics that are universally preferred.

Id agree if we were talking about relationships but in terms of fundamental, on-the-spot attraction there are many single characteristics that are universally preferred by both men and women.
Women are attracted to confident men with high-self esteem, decisiveness, humour and a strong self-respect for themselves. They know who they are.
Men are attracted by beautiful women who are caring, submissive and have core femininity.
Men and women make these on the spot decisions subconsciously. If you wanted to date someone and get into a relationship many of these factors take a back seat in the place of other individual-specific preferences.

 

[Opiate]

I'm not going to defend PUA, but some of the stuff they are elaborating on body language is quite valuable not just in terms of picking up women.

There are misogynistic elements such as using language like "training" that evokes dog training. In general, from reading the Neil Strauss book, the individuals are messed up themselves.

Either way, if a woman wants to cake on heavy makeup, wear short tight clothing, or show cleavage and if a man wants to put up a personality facade going through patterns of socialization to attract the opposite sex, it's on them. PUA advice is just the grease that turns the wheels. There are deeper psychological and sociological underpinnings. The PUA culture is merely a symptom, not cause or cure.

I strongly agree with this analysis based on what I've gleaned from this thread.

 

[Vermillion]

I strongly agree with this analysis based on what I've gleaned from this thread.

Seconded.

 

[Puddles]

Alternatively, these unsuccessful fellas can try doing shit and see how that works out. Maybe they hope to find a girl as burned out as them and live the life? "The world won't change for me, I shall not change for it". It's naive to think only supermodel girls want guys with their shit together. The fuck? This is not about my idea of what women find attractive. Ask yourself: in case shit went down, who would I'd like to be next to? the guy (or girl) who pretends or the one who actually is? How would I know if he's pretending? well, luckily for us, fakers come through transparently most of the time, and even when they don't, their web of lies doesn't last a lifetime.

Plenty of guys have their shit together and don't do very well in the dating world.

When Neil Strauss started exploring the PUA world, he was already a successful journalist writing for a major newspaper or magazine, though I forget which one. He was already pursuing his career goals and had been pretty successful in achieving them.

You seem to think that this whole idea is about teaching complete losers how to convince others that they're winners. It's not.

 

[Fugu]

It is my understanding that pick-up artists are inherently seeking something shallow and its effectiveness is entirely limited to other people seeking something shallow. That's not a large percentage of the population.

 

[marrec]

He's not saying he knows better than her, he's saying he did not know better than her. She said "no" out loud, but meant "yes" and wanted him to push for it; he did not know that.

He's providing an empirical example of where resistance from some women may not be actual disinterest but could instead be a desire to make men push for it; someone might do this because it shows that they really want it.

Empirical but anecdotal and certainly should not be the attitude of any man ever.

For a such a smart guy, political opinion/emotion cloud your posts more than anything else.

How is this system in any way based on a testable set of parameters? There is no logic to it.

i'm not talking about formal philosophical logic. things can have their own logic. PUA is "if she does this, do that" all along on a neat little road to having sex, using tips that are culled from other people's successes in various situations to statistically increase one's chances of getting it on. that sounds like logic to me.

If this then that is logic and PUA is not logic, it's a fantasy.

 

[mikeGFG]

are we seriously debating guys going out to bars/clubs trying to get laid?

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

 

[justjohn]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

Burrrrrr!!!!

 

[squidyj]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

oh.
wow.

 

[Timedog]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

G.E.D, really? That impressive given the intelligence level shown you've shown in the decision to make this post.

 

[marrec]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

You're a piece of shit.

That's how you make a personal attack Mike, not by lying.

And people wonder what there aren't more women on GAF.

 

[thekad]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

frame it as a question

 

[Vermillion]

How is this system in any way based on a testable set of parameters? There is no logic to it.



If this then that is logic and PUA is not logic, it's a fantasy.

PUA is definitely logic. If you know that certain methods are more likely to achieve certain goals based off of certain psychological factors, and perhaps you even see evidence of it day to day...

 

[Count Dookkake]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

But this does not describe Devo.

 

[Vermillion]

Damn, guys. Kindness. And Devo's not what you've described.

 

[Barbacoatl]

I'm not saying that your idea of what women find attractive is wrong. Women do like guys who "have their shit together." I'm saying that this is no different than what the OP/PUA was stating: "Be this way because women like it."

I understand, but I think it's different in the sense that PUA techniques are meant for specific places/situations and they differ in their goal, which is pretty clear in pua's case (pick up a girl and sex her). What I meant is "better yourself" as in "improving your dignity" and not as in "chase the tail".

Like other posters say, people are free to engage in these social experiments but I firmly believe they are shams, like homeopathy.

 

[The Anti-Monitor]

See Devo, other people read and are able to handle nuance.

Gee, no you.

start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

Empirical but anecdotal and certainly should not be the attitude of any man ever.

Oh come on, unless you're a sociopath, it's pretty clear when someone is just playing around, or insecure but definitely willing, and someone who flat-out doesn't want to.

As far as I can see, most of the people here aren't referring to the kind of uber-misogynistic PUA of the "Last Minute Resistance", more like "be interesting, be well-groomed, be *etc etc*" and I don't see anything inherently bad with that.

 

[HeySeuss]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

I like the cut of yer jib. Now to wait for the white knights to defend her honor.

And marrec picks up the sword first. I'm SHOCKED!

 

[thekad]

I think part of my bewilderment with this stuff comes down to two things: Friend zoning is not the worst fate, it's how I meet women, through their friends! And I guess in general I've never been into the one night thing. I have a pattern of kid of getting loosely involved and moving away quickly, but not really going into a bar/club with the goal of getting laid by a different woman each time.

Most people who go to bars/clubs to "get laid," aren't having one night stands. Might not lead anywhere, but you can get a girl's phone number and ask her on a date.

I understand, but I think it's different in the sense that PUA techniques are meant for specific places/situations and they differ in their goal, which is pretty clear in pua's case (pick up a girl and sex her).

But this isn't the goal of pua.

 

[SteveWinwood]

Just keeps getting crazier and crazier.

 

[Mistouze]

I miss Dragona when stuff like this happens. Oh the thrill of having a post in the middle of a shit ton of bannings.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Plenty of guys have their shit together and don't do very well in the dating world.

When Neil Strauss started exploring the PUA world, he was already a successful journalist writing for a major newspaper or magazine, though I forget which one. He was already pursuing his career goals and had been pretty successful in achieving them.

You seem to think that this whole idea is about teaching complete losers how to convince others that they're winners. It's not.

In the dating context, I think having your shit together doesn't exclusively stop at having a career or material wealth. It also means having your shit together mentally, emotionally, perhaps spiritually? I know for damn sure that I rather marry an emotionally stable girl than a rich pain in the ass.

 

[Herpes Reasons]

you mean guys going out and perpetuating the rape culture?

next time you want to make a connection with the opposite-sex, drop the confidence and canned one-liners and start cruisin neogaf for the otherwise ignored, sexually repressed and bitter women of the world.

worked for timedog

lolololol
coldblooded

 

[ThisWreckage]

frame it as a question

I got a kick out of this.

 

[Barbacoatl]

Most people who go to bars/clubs to "get laid," aren't having one night stands. Might not lead anywhere, but you can get a girl's phone number and ask her on a date.



But this isn't the goal of pua.

If the goal of a pick up artist isn't picking up girls, then I've been living in the shadows.

 

[squidyj]

You know, I was gonna put on a movie but I think I'll just read this thread instead.

Hygiene is very true though. Which reminds me that I need better beard trimming tools.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

He's not saying he knows better than her, he's saying he did not know better than her. She said "no" out loud, but meant "yes" and wanted him to push for it; he did not know that.

He's providing an empirical example of where resistance from some women may not be actual disinterest but could instead be a desire to make men push for it; someone might do this because it shows that they really want it.

So this Louis CK bit is a real thing?