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Why has Mario never whipped out a peace sign in years?

T

Tookay

Member
Eusis said:
If we've reached the point that a vague "peace" sign is to much for video games outside of some insane (usually right wing) people then we can say or have nothing interesting in games.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your political commentary but nobody on the right has complained about the use of a peace sign in a video game.
 
L

Lindsay

Dot Hacked
I dun see why its an issue.

Victory?
Peace?

Aren't both of those usually good things? Victory over the level obstacles/baddies, peace has been restored!

Seems all good in my book!
 
M

MBR

Banned
When was the "V for victory" sign last seen? Remember, there are teenagers who were born in this millennia now.

We're all old.
 
P

Pie and Beans

Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
because there can be
yCoBtBn.png
 
M

Mak

Member
batteryLeakage said:
I'm not sure about this, but I think I've heard somewhere that the "V for Victory" pose is considered a bit childish. Perhaps its Nintendo trying not to make Mario into something that is considered solely for children but something for everyone.

For instance, in this Iwata Asks, Koji Kondo says that when composing the music for the Mario games he didn't aim to make something for children, but music that reflects that "Mario is cool".

The above quote in particular stands out. Mario is child-friendly, but not childish.
Click to expand...

This is exactly right.

There's an interview where Miyamoto explains that he felt Mario giving the V sign with his hand was too cute (Mario did this in Super Mario Allstars remake of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario 64). I think it was around the time of Super Mario Sunshine, when Miyamoto was talking about having Mario appeal to everyone like he was in Donkey Kong (misinterpreted as making Mario "mature").

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/...-his-vision-of-the-future-five-years-from-now
[Miyamoto: They say the Mario game (Editor's Note: He's talking about the game being developed for Dolphin that was known as "Mario 128") we're currently developing is more adult than usual. But putting it that way is a bit off base.

I've never been a fan of what I call "Doraemon-like Story Development.” That's not to say that I dislike Fujiko-san. I think it's incredible that he created such a product, but the print media use a lot of this base pink color. They say that's a color that young elementary schoolers are fond of. Apparently kids of about that age range have a much easier time recognizing that color. Hearing that I think to myself, "That's just not right!"

They didn't make the character and say, "OK, what kind of design, what kind of color would fit this character?” I don't like it that the marketing came first and the color was chosen based on that. And so due to these limitations, Doraemon became more and more geared towards younger people. I didn't like that. And before I knew it, Mario was following a similar pattern. As more entries in the series were added, I feel like, because we have more people making the Mario games - younger people on our staff making the games, and outside companies licensing Mario, that as a character he started going in that direction more and more. And even Nintendo marketing began to say, "Let's position Mario as a character aimed at small children,” and it was established. Even in comics he became more aimed at young elementary school children.


I created Mario when I was 27 years old. At that point in time he was in no way something that I would feel embarrassed about - I mean, he was already this older guy, like your uncle or something! (Laughs) It was meant to be the kind of game that 18 year old guys would be able to play together and enjoy, so I felt this disconnect when he started being forced into this more elementary school focused, narrowed role. If, for instance, you're talking about Yoshi in a product like Yoshi's Story, it makes sense to narrow the target age group for that, and I think that's fine, but for me, I felt like Mario was something a bit different. So I feel like I want to bring it back to that point, that I don't want to limit the age group of the game from our end.

We also thought that we'd like to take the design and all of the game related graphics and improve them a bit. First off - that he doesn't give the peace sign. Also that he isn't always smiling and laughing too much for no good reason. About that “peace sign ban,” that’s something I've been saying for a looong time. (Laughs) Our Tezuka-san, he likes that so he's put it in the games from the beginning, but in the later games it's permeated too much - to the point where when you think Mario you think that, "He's the guy that gives the peace sign for his winning pose.” So I'm saying now, let's get rid of that sooner rather than later.
Click to expand...

Other interviews
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/super_mario_galaxy/3/2
http://kotaku.com/5861970/when-we-show-a-power-up-to-mr-miyamoto-we-get-a-bit-nervous
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-13-miyamoto-explains-why-mario-is-chubby
 
P

Pociask

Member
Pie and Beans said:
because there can be
yCoBtBn.png
Click to expand...

I understood that reference!

Mak said:
This is exactly right.

There's an interview where Miyamoto explains that he felt Mario giving the V sign with his hand was too cute (Mario did this in Super Mario Allstars remake of Super Mario Bros. and Super Mario 64). I think it was around the time of Super Mario Sunshine, when Miyamoto was talking about having Mario appeal to everyone like he was in Donkey Kong (misinterpreted as making Mario "mature").
Click to expand...


Miyamoto says a lot of things. But it's pretty transparently baloney. Since that interview (prior to Mario 128, right?), we had Mario Galaxy's story being told through a children's story book. We had NSMB DS, where the game is kicked off with Mario bringing a big cake to Peace, and then Bowser drags her off. We had Mario Sunshine's tele-tubby like characters and Bowser Jr. thinking Peach was his mama. And of course Mario continues to "Woo-hoo!" and "Wa-ha!" with every single jump. Where's this supposedly mature Mario who grimaces and isn't happy all the time?

Bring back the peace sign!
 
S

sfried

Member
Pociask said:
Miyamoto says a lot of things. But it's pretty transparently baloney. Since that interview (prior to Mario 128, right?), we had Mario Galaxy's story being told through a children's story book. We had NSMB DS, where the game is kicked off with Mario bringing a big cake to Peace, and then Bowser drags her off. We had Mario Sunshine's tele-tubby like characters and Bowser Jr. thinking Peach was his mama. And of course Mario continues to "Woo-hoo!" and "Wa-ha!" with every single jump. Where's this supposedly mature Mario who grimaces and isn't happy all the time?

Bring back the peace sign!
Click to expand...

I don't think it was baloney. In fact, wasn't Miyamoto responsible for getting rid of that storybook in Mario Galaxy (since it was sneaked in by Koizumi)? Hence why we have no story in Mario Galaxy 2 at all!

And now we have death-staring Luigi.
 
M

Mak

Member
Pociask said:
Miyamoto says a lot of things. But it's pretty transparently baloney. Since that interview (prior to Mario 128, right?), we had Mario Galaxy's story being told through a children's story book. We had NSMB DS, where the game is kicked off with Mario bringing a big cake to Peace, and then Bowser drags her off. We had Mario Sunshine's tele-tubby like characters and Bowser Jr. thinking Peach was his mama. And of course Mario continues to "Woo-hoo!" and "Wa-ha!" with every single jump. Where's this supposedly mature Mario who grimaces and isn't happy all the time?

Bring back the peace sign!
Click to expand...

There is no "mature" Mario like I just said in what you quoted.

The point is he didn't want Mario to be too cute by doing the peace sign.

(Also NSMB DS had Bowser Jr. distracting Mario while he kidnapped Peach and Mario runs off in a fury after them, and NSMB Wii had the Koopa Kids and Bowser Jr. hide in a cake and then ran off with Peach, and Mario and Luigi with the Toads take off running. After each level Mario yells "Wait!" as Bowser Jr. runs off in the airship in a very classic cartoon fashion, not unlike Popeye that Mario and Donkey Kong are based off of)

The cover of Super Mario Sunshine shows a more determined Mario similar to his appearence in Donkey Kong where he's not smiling or giving the peace sign.

250px-Box_NA_-_Super_Mario_Sunshine.png
250px-Dk1.jpg
Donkey_Kong_94_box_art.jpg

250px-Supermariolandboxart.jpg
Super_Mario_Land_2_box_art.jpg


250px-SMBDX_Boxart.PNG


Super Smash Bros. Brawl (and likely the Wii U/3DS versions) are a good example of what Miyamoto is talking about, since Smash Bros. doesn't just represent one specific appearence of Mario, but represents the essence of the character as a whole as a hard working, middle aged hero, who smiles but also can have an angry/determined look. Also, the covers of every Mario Kart starting with Mario Kart DS to Mario Kart 8.

The whole Luigi being frightened at everything was a more recent personality trait that started with Luigi's Mansion and reflected in Brawl's cutscenes. The "death stare" he gives in Mario Kart 8 is surprising to people because of this, but to me it wasn't a shock because he's been racing go-karts in Mario Kart for years, and Luigi is a Mario Brother.

mario_kart_double_dash.jpg
 
P

Pociask

Member
Mak said:
There is no "mature" Mario like I just said in what you quoted.

The point is he didn't want Mario to be too cute by doing the peace sign.


Super Smash Bros. Brawl (and likely the Wii U/3DS versions) are a good example of what Miyamoto is talking about, since Smash Bros. doesn't just represent one specific appearence of Mario, but represents the essence of the character as a whole as a hard working, middle aged hero, who smiles but also can have an angry/determined look.
Click to expand...

I should have phrased my statement more carefully. I think it's baloney that any consistent effort has been made to make Mario a less "cute" character. I don't understand how you're saying that Smash, the fighting game spin-off, is a better representation of the character than the cute dude and his cute companions we've gotten in Sunshine (box art nonwithstanding), Galaxy, NSMB DS, NSMB Wii (bah! bah!), NSMB U (cat suit Mario! For God's sake, cat suit Mario!) etc - you know, the Mario titles.

Perhaps, at one time, he wanted to make Mario less "cute," and so they removed the peace sign. Even if that was the case, I think it's pretty clear that's not the direction they've gone with the character since then (see - every single advertisement featuring character costume Mario). Would a peace sign really make Mario appear more cutesy than cat or bumble bee Mario?
 
E

Extollere

Sucks at poetry
So let me get this straight. In a hentai when a girl throws up a double peace sign it really means victorious orgasm? I see.
 
T

TheLoCoRaven

Banned
Mario doesn't do it because Hot Shots Golf abuse it.

Luigi doesn't do it because he wants no peace, he wants nothing but revenge and murder.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Tookay said:
Thanks for your political commentary but nobody on the right has complained about the use of a peace sign in a video game.
Click to expand...
That was kind of the thing there, if they'd remove the peace sign due to being "politically charged" then I don't think anything can fly, I can only see absolute crazies like Ann Coulter getting worked up over something like that and who really cares when they're a minority most reasonably sensible people (that are likely where most of your audience is anyway) don't care.

But it really was the "too childish" guess afterall, so I guess it's all moot.
Fantastapotamus said:
I always thought V stands for victory? It's a peace sign?
Click to expand...
It tends to stand for that in the US despite Allied troops seemingly being the origin of V for victory. As for all this talk about it being offensive in the UK, that's only with an inward palm, not an outward palm like Mario and others had done (though with lower graphical fidelity I CAN see this being mistaken in SM64.) Wikipedia has an article on it.
 
V

Valjean Lafitte

Banned
Mak said:
There is no "mature" Mario like I just said in what you quoted.

The point is he didn't want Mario to be too cute by doing the peace sign.

(Also NSMB DS had Bowser Jr. distracting Mario while he kidnapped Peach and Mario runs off in a fury after them, and NSMB Wii had the Koopa Kids and Bowser Jr. hide in a cake and then ran off with Peach, and Mario and Luigi with the Toads take off running. After each level Mario yells "Wait!" as Bowser Jr. runs off in the airship in a very classic cartoon fashion, not unlike Popeye that Mario and Donkey Kong are based off of)

The cover of Super Mario Sunshine shows a more determined Mario similar to his appearence in Donkey Kong where he's not smiling or giving the peace sign.

250px-Box_NA_-_Super_Mario_Sunshine.png
250px-Dk1.jpg
Donkey_Kong_94_box_art.jpg

250px-Supermariolandboxart.jpg
Super_Mario_Land_2_box_art.jpg


250px-SMBDX_Boxart.PNG


Super Smash Bros. Brawl (and likely the Wii U/3DS versions) are a good example of what Miyamoto is talking about, since Smash Bros. doesn't just represent one specific appearence of Mario, but represents the essence of the character as a whole as a hard working, middle aged hero, who smiles but also can have an angry/determined look. Also, the covers of every Mario Kart starting with Mario Kart DS to Mario Kart 8.

The whole Luigi being frightened at everything was a more recent personality trait that started with Luigi's Mansion and reflected in Brawl's cutscenes. The "death stare" he gives in Mario Kart 8 is surprising to people because of this, but to me it wasn't a shock because he's been racing go-karts in Mario Kart for years, and Luigi is a Mario Brother.

mario_kart_double_dash.jpg
Click to expand...

Dang this is a good post. I read this, and the Miyamoto quote from your last post, and I wonder: what changed at Nintendo that Miyamoto isn't so determined to have Mario be a guy who is cool for, as he puts it, 18-year old guys to play together? Cat Mario seems to be the total antithesis of what he was talking about in that interview. There's no "fiercely determined" official art for 3D World, it's mostly smiling, laughing yellow, pink, and green kitties. And the artwork of Mario and friends in regular, non-cat form?

FhQABaEl.jpg


Seriously. How did we get here from Sunshine? Even Paper Mario: Thousand Year Door, the first console Mario RPG to follow Sunshine, had a more serious tone to it -- still cartoony, but more hip than the pre-K nonsense seen above. It's insane to think that the same man who described at length his efforts to un-Doraemon Mario was all for putting Mario and friends in cute and cuddly, colorful cat costumes.

Extollere said:
So let me get this straight. In a hentai when a girl throws up a double peace sign it really means victorious orgasm? I see.
Click to expand...

image.php
 
G

Greenzxy

Junior Member
Valjean Lafitte said:
It's insane to think that the same man who described at length his efforts to un-Doraemon Mario was all for putting Mario and friends in cute and cuddly, colorful cat costumes.
Click to expand...

Yea, it that's pretty funny. If anything, I think Mario has gone more gone more childlike than Doraemon in recent years. There's a weird vibe of authority in Mario games, that makes it okay from an adult or anyone of all ages to enjoy.
 
P

protomouse

Member
Mak said:
http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/...-his-vision-of-the-future-five-years-from-now


Other interviews
http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/super_mario_galaxy/3/2
http://kotaku.com/5861970/when-we-show-a-power-up-to-mr-miyamoto-we-get-a-bit-nervous
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-13-miyamoto-explains-why-mario-is-chubby
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting those, very interesting to read. With 3D World, it felt like Nintendo were trying to make the most accessible Mario game to date, and its cutesy aesthetics were definitely an extension of that. It reëmbraced a bit of the "childishness" that "modern Mario" has distanced itself from. For instance, ending levels with a "meoww!" is orders of magnitude above the overenthusiatic V-gestures in SM64 to that end. I see it as more of a one-off endeavour than something that will set the trend for future Mario games. It'll be interesting to see what will influence these games when Miyamoto is no longer involved.

I still miss Mario's V-gestures for purely nostalgic reasons though. But it's really something that didn't carry over into modern culture.

Just out of curiosity: has Sonic's finger-wagging carried over into "modern Sonic" to any extent? I know they've done a lot of alterations to his character, as to convey "attitude" in the modern age.

Valjean Lafitte said:
Dang this is a good post. I read this, and the Miyamoto quote from your last post, and I wonder: what changed at Nintendo that Miyamoto isn't so determined to have Mario be a guy who is cool for, as he puts it, 18-year old guys to play together? Cat Mario seems to be the total antithesis of what he was talking about in that interview. There's no "fiercely determined" official art for 3D World, it's mostly smiling, laughing yellow, pink, and green kitties. And the artwork of Mario and friends in regular, non-cat form?
Click to expand...

Perhaps it was designed from an intent to attract a more casual audience to the platform?
 
M

Mak

Member
Look at the boxarts of Super Mario 3D Land and Super Mario 3D World.

Mario's using his fist on 3D World's cover, and slightly holding on to his cap in a cool way on 3D Land's cover.

250px-SM3DL_UScover.png
20140227220215!Super_Mario_3D_World_box_art.jpg


Land on 3DS is a 1 player adventure with Mario going off alone as the hero to rescue Peach influenced from earlier Super Mario Bros. games (including the use of 2D artwork in cutscenes).

World on Wii U is a 4 player adventure for everyone to have a good time, with Mario going on an adventure with his friends. (in the image above he's on an amusement park ride with friends, of course he's happy, but still using his fist) It uses a wide range of colors on a home console system in today's modern gaming environment where everything is realistic and gritty.

World also features 2 playable female characters in Nintendo's noticeable effort to attract female gamers, which includes the cat powerup, and the number of female characters in Super Smash Bros. Everything about the game is basically "Let's have fun!"

2405313-url.jpeg
 
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