ProphessorX
Neo Member
Maybe the health would regenerate after the encounter was over. What game did that? Was it Max Payne 3?
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Why is full-on health regen systems still a thing?
- Thread starter Saty
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Spring-Loaded
Member
Not that one. That was strictly "health pack" style
EventHorizon
Member
I generally like the segmented health approach but I don't feel like it would be a good fit for Infamous. Like it or not Infamous's gameplay is designed around running in and out of battle. You are not supposed to be timid. You are supposed to release your powers with wild abandon with the good play through needing a bit more control than the all out frenzy of evil. The only change I would make in the game is for the enemies to pursue you more, at least on expert difficulty. That way, planning an escape route would be more important, or insuring that you incapacitate the ones that would chase you would be crucial.
Either way, I liked the actual combat of the game the way it is. My only gripe there is that there were too few contexts of combat. The real reason why combat felt repetitive is that the effects of each were too local. Each battle was its own contained thing. If on the other hand reinforcements could be called in from other parts of the map, or environmental threats played a larger role, or the composition/number of enemies guarding an area could be influenced by the play's actions, then each battle would have a larger meaning and the order in which battles were done would matter.
Either way, I liked the actual combat of the game the way it is. My only gripe there is that there were too few contexts of combat. The real reason why combat felt repetitive is that the effects of each were too local. Each battle was its own contained thing. If on the other hand reinforcements could be called in from other parts of the map, or environmental threats played a larger role, or the composition/number of enemies guarding an area could be influenced by the play's actions, then each battle would have a larger meaning and the order in which battles were done would matter.
Wolf Akela
Member
Resistance too, I think. Health is segmented into bars. Each bar can regenerate, but once a bar is lost you have to find a health pack to replace it.
It is a bit silly if you just run behind a wall and stay still until you get your health back, but that's not how I played it, I did back off from battles, but I kept moving, looking for vents or buildings to scale to have a new angle to attack from, and comet drop some bad guys.
It felt "right" to me, really got a handle on how much damage I could take before dying. The game is designed around this too, with deadly accurate enemies.
It felt "right" to me, really got a handle on how much damage I could take before dying. The game is designed around this too, with deadly accurate enemies.
I would agree with this more if the AI in games were better.
But oh man, you want exhilaration? F.E.A.R with less than 10 health left.
NullPointer
Member
I'm all for simplifying systems by way of streamlining, accessibility and assists. I'm just not for removing player engagement by way of challenge, for those who seek it. I'd love Gears to go back to being more about smart use of cover and blind fire and timed CQC assaults rather than a focus on run and gun and side-rolls. I'd like military shooters to ditch regenerating health and focus on smarter tactical play, and games like I dunno, Tomb Raider, to involve some risky skill based platforming and some head-scratching puzzle solving.
Challenge really shouldn't be a dirty word. Not in the gaming world.
Have you played it? There's tons of those moves, from ones that have Grenade blasts, to a kinda knock back blast, some that make shields, some that trap you in concrete unless you dodge with the traversal move or use the move to escape, then there are ones that basically ram you.
jordan0386
Member
Its still a videogame. And you want people to eventually get to the end credits.
I've found some designers have started using this heavily since it allows you to have multiple encounters designed by different teams within the same area/level, separate from each other, therefore allowing faster buildout and iteration since you don't need to care what encounter comes before or after.
The upside of this is you can make enemies much more aggressive, more numerous, and you don't have to meta-design where healthpacks or rest spots are.
The downside is your player will never feel weak or endangered, so the only way to make an enemy super serious or memorable as a boss-type is to give them an instant kill move.
However, you can't just throw limited health into a game that had it and expect it to work out. You also can't throw regen health into a game with limited health and not completely ruin it. It's not the regen health that's an issue, it's when it's used and nothing else in the game accounts for it that you notice how bad it is.
The upside of this is you can make enemies much more aggressive, more numerous, and you don't have to meta-design where healthpacks or rest spots are.
The downside is your player will never feel weak or endangered, so the only way to make an enemy super serious or memorable as a boss-type is to give them an instant kill move.
However, you can't just throw limited health into a game that had it and expect it to work out. You also can't throw regen health into a game with limited health and not completely ruin it. It's not the regen health that's an issue, it's when it's used and nothing else in the game accounts for it that you notice how bad it is.
Net_Wrecker
Member
I don't see the issue with regenerating health in these kinds of fast paced open world action/adventure games. Saves a lot of time that could be better spent on exploration and keeping the player in the moment in a style of game inherently bogged down by traversing the map. Your defense in Infamous is already the complex strategy of "run away" so adding health packs into the mix would probably just make the game tedious.
Linear games are a different thing, and I do agree that regenerating health has hurt some of those titles due to the disregard in how encounters are designed.
Linear games are a different thing, and I do agree that regenerating health has hurt some of those titles due to the disregard in how encounters are designed.
I don't mind regenerating health as long as the game is balanced around it.
What I do mind is the game blinding me and muffling the sound when I need it the most. Some of these games, like inFamous, I spend 10 to 20% with my sound and vision partially to totally fucked up. I'd rather have the god damn raspberry jam from Call of Duty.
What I do mind is the game blinding me and muffling the sound when I need it the most. Some of these games, like inFamous, I spend 10 to 20% with my sound and vision partially to totally fucked up. I'd rather have the god damn raspberry jam from Call of Duty.
Comfort Jones
Banned
I have no idea what you're going on about right now. Aggressive enemies in regen health shooters usually go really poorly. The flood in Halo is a great example of what happens when you take a decent enemy idea and put it in a game that relies on regen health. Regen health shooters let you be very safe when you go back into cover. Usually when I die in games like that it's because I over extended, not because of the enemies moving forward, and when they do it's not exactly a fun situation. Remember those times when enemies would get in your face in Gears of war and one shot you with melee because lol regen health so hard mode=everything fucking kills you in one shot mode.
I should mention when I say regen health I mean CoD/Halo/w.e style hide for a bit and regen all health fairly quickly. Of course Halo 1 had health AND shields but I really think Halo 1's way of handling health was kinda bad imo. You could get hurt really bad then basically get stuck on the next checkpoint with no real smart options to make your situation worse because the game is basically designed as if you're at full health at all times.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
Then you lose the mainstream/more casual gamers like me that don't like skill based games.
There are plenty of games like Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, and even lighter fair like the DMC series that cater to hardcores who want skill based action games.
Nothing wrong with games like Infamous for the rest of us who just want to veg out and tear shit up as super hero without having to practice, learn enemy attack patterns, die a bunch etc.
That's what lower difficulties are for? Of the games you've listed Bayonetta in particular almost plays itself on the lowest setting, and pretty much the only threat is from the occasional QTE.
Edit: This whole difficulty thing is a complete red herring anyway; COD type regenerating games have some of the most masochistically difficult hard settings out there, and regen is just one contributor to the easiness of most modern AAA games; a "modern game design" AAA game with health packs would be just as piss easy as a regenerating health one because they're only one contributor to why the games are easy among many.
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Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
Some are still often a pain with having to learn certain combos/attacks to be able to damage certain enemies etc.
And I have no problems with those types of games existing. They're not for me, and I just don't play them.
Similarly, a lot of hardcore gamers should just mostly avoid a lot of AAA games as they aren't designed for them. But for the "experiencer" types like me in the mainstream. Or, as you note, they can just turn up the difficulty as I agree all games should offer a bunch of difficulty options right from the start as one way to better appeal to both crowds.
That's true in theory but most of my experiences with full-on regen in games was that you take too much damage and you heal back too fast. It's pretty easy to look at gameplay and decide if the health system is too generous, just as the case if with that Infamous video.
Well, it's still regen so yes, players can still run and hide. That's always a possibility with regen health but partial regen is a better choice. It would be harder to ignore damage without dying thus encouraging better player attitude. If you still run and hide after being hit then i guess you can say that because that will happen much more frequently with 50% regen, players will be fed up from breaking the gameplay flow to run and hide and start playing the game properly.
Games with partial regen are out there so you can play for yourself and see how it works. I always enjoy them more than similar games with full-on regen.
Again, medpacks aren't the only alternative to healing back to 100% in partial regen health system.
And i really hope you don't go looking for medpacks aimlessly when you're in the heat of the fight. You probably should scouted the area better before entering the fight so you know where the medpacks are and retreat intelligently. Plus, even if you run and hide and hope to find a medpack, that only works once because the medpack is gone.
In the video we see the player sticking to the same hiding spot, making it even more dull. At least with medpacks you would need to move to other spots to find new ones.
Play it without regenerating health.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Yeah and then you realize that when you have health regen like that the only way to make the game hard is to make enemies do ridiculous fast damage. Good thing the game is super linear and enemies are never aggressive ever, but boy you better not poke your head out at the wrong moment! There's no sense of pacing because it's just constant fuck up and your dead near instantly. The levels give you little room to really move around and you don't really have any smart options.
Seriously, CoD on super hard mode is your defense? Has anyone played that and seriously thought "yes, this is very well designed and all of this is fair".
I've beaten every Halo game on Legendary, All 3 Gears of War games on whatever they called the hardest difficulty, have plenty of hours in a bunch of shooters like that. I still despise regen health.
NullPointer
Member
COD on veteran breaks the game, and the series is the posterboy of cheesing AI and checkpoints because of it.
If you want example regenerating health games that do difficulty right, I'd suggest soloing Halo 3 on legendary or Gears of War 1 on insane. Outside of the Cortana level in Halo 3 and the end boss of Gears 1 those games are masterpieces.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Health kits are BS too. Characters should die instantly, or bleed out without medical intervention.
I choke on my own vomit watching people get rewarded for the worst kind of game play.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Uh....
Tbh I don't think Halo 1 and 3 are bad games but Gears has really REALLY soured on me. The enemies are bullet sponges, they do fucking ridiculous damage which promotes being super campy and just boring play, and things aren't mixed up enough to really make them interesting. It's such an all or nothing experience, either you're totally ok or you mess up and you're dead in seconds.
Also imo regen health seriously prevents them from doing more with the enemies in Halo. The Flood could have been a lot of fun to fight if they were in a different style of shooter.
TUROK
Member
Fun thread. People keep spouting of bullshit like " health regen" makes games too easy, and then when met with an example of a game that isn't easy, its "not fair."
Bump it down to Hardened mode and you get a tough challenge that isn't overly frustrating.
I don't really care if you think that health regeneration is the spawn of Satan, that doesn't negate how stupid the "it makes games" easier argument is.
NullPointer
Member
Gears 1 legendary with regenerating health works perfectly because of that game's design and rhythms. Take cover, blind fire to keep from getting assaulted or to keep the enemy's heads down before shifting position yourself - sprint to a flank and open up, or toss a grenade to force the enemy to move out into the open where you can then take them down, or or when the enemy takes time to reload or when you find yourself short on good options, rush their position with shotty or chainsaw.
Legendary difficulty works here because it forces you into cover, and any movement into active enemy fire gets you downed in moments. What little health you have regenerates, but you never have enough to ignore enemy fire so you have to play smart. Also, the enemy turrets on insane are every bit as terrifying as they should be, turning a player into pulpy mush in half a second flat.
Comfort Jones
Banned
My issue was more with how much that example sucks.
Personally I hate regen health because it kills pacing and variety, and when it is hard it's in such a bland and generally unfair way. Everything either one shots your or kills you nigh instantly. It's weird how people complain about deaths being unfair in the Souls series when you can take far more hits in those games than you can in the average regen health shooter on hard.
Call of Duty is probably the biggest offender of so-called triple-A games that have A.I. with auto-detect and auto-aim.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Mashing the dodge button is so satisfying.
flatearthpandas
Member
Pages and pages late, but thank you.
Next step is just full on IDDGD. "But the character is a god in the story. It's supposed to be impossible for him to die or lose!"
Comfort Jones
Banned
I...don't really get what your point is with this post. Are you saying Infamous lets you mash dodge or something?
BassForever
Member
Its funny the first Halo was the game that popularized the idea of regenerating health in the form of your shield with your health being a separate meter that only depleted when your shield was down and that only recovered from med packs. I like this and wish more games had a system like that as it prevents the player from getting permanently screwed but there is still a sense of urgency because full shields and only 1 bar of health left can get you killed fast if you rush in
striferser
Huge Nickleback Fan
I am not bitching about it, but CoD Veteran is all abourt patient to not break your controler every time you take a wrong stop, or when the RNG decide to fuck you up from the get go.
This is why i think Operation flashpoint is the bomb. 1 or 2 hit, you down for good. Get hit on the leg? Prepare to crawl all the way through the mission if your medic is dead. Definitely need more game like this.
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Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
I'd garner that the people bitching about DS probably don't play shooters on hard....
I have no interest in games like DS, and no interest in playing shooters on anything but normal difficulty.
What're ya supposed ta be exploring for if not pickups? The next baddie encounter or story trigger an nothing but? I'da thought open world games of all types wouldn't need regen since you're not often locked down ta one lil spot. I know Bully sure didn't need it cause occasionally guys would drop soda cans or you could run into a vending machine an buy some to get some health back.
Comfort Jones
Banned
This is a really weird position to take when "normal" can seriously vary from game to game.
Quite funny, now endlessly respawning enemies, enemies with endless supply of grenades, bad friendly AI and bad game design in general count as a great example for a difficult game?
That's not actually difficult. That's just bullshit and badly designed. The player will just try over and over and over again until he is lucky and gets through the current part. Replay the same part again and he will have to try it over and over again. Unless there is an exploit to get through it. Just like Killzone 2's last boss before the patch.
A properly done "hard difficulty" mode should be difficult at first, but then get easier when you have learnt how to play properly and you shouldn't have to look for exploits, so that you can get around bad game design. Sure, it's pretty hard to design a combat game like this, when your enemies are using hitscan weapons for the most part.
Best example for well done hard difficulty: Demon's/Dark Souls. At first it seems really difficult. After hours of gameplay it will get easier because the player will know how to properly handle enemies. And in the end, the player can actually rush through the whole game within a few hours without having problems.
Another example: Metal Gear Solid2+3 on Extreme/Euro-Extreme difficulty for the most part. Sure, that's really difficult at first. But the more you know the bosses, the easier they will get. The game is absolutely fair in that aspect.
The "press button a thousand times within 60 seconds to survive"-part in MGS2's Euro-Extreme difficulty reminds me of those typical AAA shooters. That's not actually difficult, but simply bullshit and badly designed.
Just imagine the bosses of MGS2+MGS3 while you are having the typical AAA full health regen. They would be piss easy, because you could simply go into cover for some seconds and try over and over again. "The end" wouldn't be one of the best boss fights ever, but actually laughable. It would be boring as hell and you wouldn't have to learn the bosses unless they are able to kill you in one hit, which would make regenerating health pointless.
Comfort Jones
Banned
See I agree with most of your post but you can literally just rush the End down. He only hurts your stamina and you can get stamina back immediately with food. All you need to do is get the drop on him once and then chase him down. It's not even hard with thermal goggles.
...when you know what to do, it gets really easy. Exactly. That's the whole point.
Who beat the end within 2 minutes on the first try? I can do that now. The first try took an hour or so.
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Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
If it's too hard for me on normal, I'm probably just going to stop playing, sell it off and play something else.
I don't care if normal is easy as I don't play games for challenge. But I seldom drop a shooter down to easy. I'll generally only do that for open world RPGs like Skyrim as I hate the combat but love the questing and exploration.
badcrumble
Member
Full health regen, like two-weapon pickup a la many modern shooters, isn't inherently a bad game design decision.
But it's often a crutch for *other* poor design. Both of those mechanics make it much, much easier and more brainless to do encounter design in a game because you never have to think "what if a character comes into this scenario with low health?" or "what if a character comes into this scenario without RPG ammunition?" - you can always count on full health and you can just plop down the 'correct' weapon in front of the player. Good game designers make good encounters *even with* those mechanics in place, but bad game designers obviously use them as a crutch so they don't need to balance or design as carefully. It's important to parse that difference.
Oh, and everyone saying that it sucks to hunt for health packs? What you're supposed to be doing is not taking damage. You're welcome.
But it's often a crutch for *other* poor design. Both of those mechanics make it much, much easier and more brainless to do encounter design in a game because you never have to think "what if a character comes into this scenario with low health?" or "what if a character comes into this scenario without RPG ammunition?" - you can always count on full health and you can just plop down the 'correct' weapon in front of the player. Good game designers make good encounters *even with* those mechanics in place, but bad game designers obviously use them as a crutch so they don't need to balance or design as carefully. It's important to parse that difference.
Oh, and everyone saying that it sucks to hunt for health packs? What you're supposed to be doing is not taking damage. You're welcome.
Comfort Jones
Banned
I suppose, but I guess what I'm trying to say is honestly I don't think health really played a factor in that fight.
Was definitely a concept that wouldn't work well in your average AAA game for sure.
Okay, that makes sense. But I meant take "the end" boss and throw it into a typical AAA shooter. Normally those don't have a stamina meter, which means "the end" would just remove your health. That would still work, but now add full health regen and the boss fight would get laughable.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Yeah, that would be terribad.