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[NumberThree]

Carrying multiple healing items like in Bioshock and Max Payne is maybe my favourite of these mechanics. Or the Half-Life system, which makes healing an actual decision - it takes time and you lose view of the area while using the healing station.

 

[Gsnap]

What I don't understand is, if the main character can heal himself, then why doesn't the player have control over that?

It's infamous, so you have a power meter, right? Wouldn't it be more interesting to have a specific healing power and manually heal yourself by using up a certain amount of your power meter. You already have to learn to manage your meter by not using too many powers incorrectly. Why not add health to that? It would probably be more interesting than either health packs or auto-regen.

 

[Principate]

What're ya supposed ta be exploring for if not pickups? The next baddie encounter or story trigger an nothing but? I'da thought open world games of all types wouldn't need regen since you're not often locked down ta one lil spot. I know Bully sure didn't need it cause occasionally guys would drop soda cans or you could run into a vending machine an buy some to get some health back.

How about be like Deus Ex give you various reasons to actually want to bother (different passage ways, items and events that effect quests/missions, new side quests etc.

If the game is designed in a way to encourage exploration it doesn't need to force you to explore. You should want to do so.. I'm not arguing ether way, but health packs are a lazy way to force exploration there's many better ways.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

How about be like Deus Ex give you various reasons to actually want to bother (different passage ways, items and events that effect quests/missions, new side quests etc.

If the game is designed in a way to encourage exploration it doesn't need to force. I'm not arguing ether way, but health packs are a lazy way to force exploration there's many better ways.

Exactly.

Other examples:

The Last of Us--find things to build items and fill in gaps in the story
Tomb Raider-exp and scraps to upgrade weapons
Bioshock--fill in the story with audiologs

Plenty of non-frustrating ways (health management) to encourage exploration.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

What're ya supposed ta be exploring for if not pickups? The next baddie encounter or story trigger an nothing but? I'da thought open world games of all types wouldn't need regen since you're not often locked down ta one lil spot. I know Bully sure didn't need it cause occasionally guys would drop soda cans or you could run into a vending machine an buy some to get some health back.

Optimally, exploring the map in something like Infamous should be in search of content, whatever that might be. Searching for health drops on top of searching for power sources would mess with that faster pacing and the flow of movement. Bully didn't need regenerating health because you weren't constantly under fire. It was reasonably easy to avoid damage, and even if you got in a fight combat didn't involve attacks that could put you near death quickly. Hell, that's actually become an issue with GTA where staring in IV you could die in the blink of an eye from any number of random things from combat to falling too hard. Looking for health or calling the weapons guys for a vest was incredibly tedious. They made it "half regeneration" in V but it's still not enough IMO.

Some games just function better with regenerating health, particularly open world action/adventure titles where things can go south in a hurry. That's not to say you have to make the player character a tank on top of that, but health drops are not always the answer. Also to be clear, slower exploration games where survival is a theme are not part of this group.

 

[socomfanaticest2001]

thas what killed socom 4 and B$ mechanic seems to be the a thing with the cod generation.


other things that annoy me is !!


" head shot " 50 xp "


how wack are shooters know n days

 

[-MD-]

Regenerating health is the worst. I hate it.

 

[Yaphett Kotto]

Another example: Metal Gear Solid2+3 on Extreme/Euro-Extreme difficulty for the most part. Sure, that's really difficult at first. But the more you know the bosses, the easier they will get. The game is absolutely fair in that aspect.

The "press button a thousand times within 60 seconds to survive"-part in MGS2's Euro-Extreme difficulty reminds me of those typical AAA shooters. That's not actually difficult, but simply bullshit and badly designed.

Just imagine the bosses of MGS2+MGS3 while you are having the typical AAA full health regen. They would be piss easy, because you could simply go into cover for some seconds and try over and over again. "The end" wouldn't be one of the best boss fights ever, but actually laughable. It would be boring as hell and you wouldn't have to learn the bosses unless they are able to kill you in one hit, which would make regenerating health pointless.

This example would have been better if it wasn't for the fact that you're throwing regenerating health into a game built around picking up health kits and applying them when needed and another that has a stamina bar and a more in-depth self aid system. It doesn't work that way.

If that was the case, I could make an argument about how perks in CoD are detrimental and should be removed and use hypothetical examples about other FPS games having perks implemented with their current balance and systems and significantly ruining the games.

You can't slap in mechanics into any game and expect them to work universally.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Everyone knows that regenerating health is not realistic. What is realistic, however, is for a character to be completely healed because they picked up a box with a little cross on it that makes it look health-related.

If only anyone had mentioned realism, then this post would actually be somewhat relevant...

 

[badcrumble]

I think all of the "realism" arguments in this thread are ridiculous, by the way. Health packs and regenerating health are equally unrealistic, and games should be designed in terms of what's the most satisfying and fun, not as simulators of the real world (and verisimilitude in fiction isn't the most important thing either; "ludonarrative dissonance" is the most irritating and overused buzzword and the fakest problem since the "uncanny valley").

Personally I'm a big fan of healing systems that force you to be aggressive. The Batman: Arkham games do a reasonably good job of this by forcing you to complete encounters in order to regain HP, but my favorite example is probably what's found in numerous games where enemies drop HP for you. It's an age-old system, it's simple, and it requires you to play intelligently and aggressively, and it's a hell of a lot better than hiding *or* hunting for health drops, should you happen to play poorly enough to take damage.

Because it allows the devs to be lazy. They don't have to spend much time balancing enemy DPS, enemy awareness, enemy response and accuracy, health drops, and game mechanics that allow player skill to avoid damage. MGS had enemies with cones of vision, movement patterns, attack patterns, avoidable and dodge-able attacks. Games of this ilk allow you to beat the game without ever taking damage if you are good enough.

Now with health regen they can just make it so the enemies always know where you are (no complicated AI detection procedure needed), have perfect aim (no complicated enemy skill calculations), and shoot you the instant you reveal yourself to start doing damage to you. But it doesn't break the game because you can just hide and heal anywhere. Lazy design.

The argument is that it keeps the player engaged in the battle by keeping them pushing forward rather than looking for health pickups. In practice, it means lazy levels, with lazy simplistic enemy AI, with lazy design that requires health regen because it is impossible to not take damage.

This post also makes a lot of fantastic points, especially the ones about hitscan weapons. It's *harder* to avoid damage in most regen-health/hitscan games, and it is also less consequential. A better formula, to my mind, is one that increases the stakes for getting hit but also makes sure that you can generally either evade enemy attacks altogether through smart movement or eliminate them before they can hurt you by executing one-hit kills (the latter is a *big* part of how the original Half-Life is played well, for example).

 

[NullPointer]

I think all of the "realism" arguments in this thread are ridiculous, by the way. Health packs and regenerating health are equally unrealistic, and games should be designed in terms of what's the most satisfying and fun, not as simulators of the real world (and verisimilitude in fiction isn't the most important thing either; "ludonarrative dissonance" is the most irritating and overused buzzword and the fakest problem since the "uncanny valley").

Realism isn't always a requirement, but immersion can be, and some systems are more immersive - but I agree that direct gameplay considerations come first. But even then different systems and even different implementations of the same basic idea can create entirely different gameplay realities.

Hell, scooping up a medpack and having it instamatically max out your health is one thing, whereas stopping to apply a medkit in Left 4 Dead is a wholly different matter in terms of immersion and implications.

In a perfect world you pick the mechanics that not only establish and reinforce the game's core gameplay elements but that also increase immersion. Sometimes that'll be regenerating health for a superhero game, sometimes it'll be something else entirely like the luck system used to great effect in Brothers in Arms. As long as the mechanics are being thoughtfully chosen, and not just picked out of making things easier to develop or just because "that's how its done now" than I'm all on-board.

 

[Mman235]

If the game is designed in a way to encourage exploration it doesn't need to force you to explore. You should want to do so.. I'm not arguing ether way, but health packs are a lazy way to force exploration there's many better ways.

There's nothing lazy about actual genuine mechanical rewards for exploration, and few better ways to make exploration actually rewarding. Especially when the current general alternatives seem to be stuff like meaningless achievement fodder or completely abstract things like experience.

 

[LuchaShaq]

Dark Souls is basically the only modern action game without regenerating health that I'm glad didn't have it. Not having it in GTA/infamous etc would be fucking awful and nothing but a time sink.

 

[NullPointer]

Dark Souls is basically the only modern action game without regenerating health that I'm glad didn't have it. Not having it in GTA/infamous etc would be fucking awful and nothing but a time sink.

Does it still have unlimited potion/healing item spamming though? I've only played Demons Souls.

 

[Majukun]

because players are lazy nowadays

 

[DirgeExtinction]

Don't most superheroes with super powers have some sort of health regen? It fits I:SS.

I do agree with games like CoD and such, where you play as a normal human.

 

[Freshmaker]

Easy mode!

But then people's feelings get hurt.

Only the people who think easy modes destroy gaming somehow.

I...don't really get what your point is with this post. Are you saying Infamous lets you mash dodge or something?

The mechanic every game uses to allow you to "skillfully" avoid damage is almost always a dodge button. Nothing more satisfying to me than doing an invincible roll between monotonous boss swipes.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Only the people who think easy modes destroy gaming somehow.



The mechanic every game uses to allow you to "skillfully" avoid damage is almost always a dodge button. Nothing more satisfying to me than doing an invincible roll between monotonous boss swipes.

You bark up the wrong tree, although the fear of those few, often drowned-out voices is a factor in it.

 

[Comfort Jones]

Does it still have unlimited potion/healing item spamming though? I've only played Demons Souls.

Well that's completely destroyed in Dark Souls. Consumables that aren't estus return in Dark Souls 2 BUT they are slow healing so they're nowhere nearly as broken as grass was in demon's.

 

[TUROK]

Quite funny, now endlessly respawning enemies, enemies with endless supply of grenades, bad friendly AI and bad game design in general count as a great example for a difficult game?

That's not actually difficult. That's just bullshit and badly designed. The player will just try over and over and over again until he is lucky and gets through the current part. Replay the same part again and he will have to try it over and over again. Unless there is an exploit to get through it. Just like Killzone 2's last boss before the patch.

A properly done "hard difficulty" mode should be difficult at first, but then get easier when you have learnt how to play properly and you shouldn't have to look for exploits, so that you can get around bad game design. Sure, it's pretty hard to design a combat game like this, when your enemies are using hitscan weapons for the most part.

Best example for well done hard difficulty: Demon's/Dark Souls. At first it seems really difficult. After hours of gameplay it will get easier because the player will know how to properly handle enemies. And in the end, the player can actually rush through the whole game within a few hours without having problems.

Another example: Metal Gear Solid2+3 on Extreme/Euro-Extreme difficulty for the most part. Sure, that's really difficult at first. But the more you know the bosses, the easier they will get. The game is absolutely fair in that aspect.

The "press button a thousand times within 60 seconds to survive"-part in MGS2's Euro-Extreme difficulty reminds me of those typical AAA shooters. That's not actually difficult, but simply bullshit and badly designed.

Just imagine the bosses of MGS2+MGS3 while you are having the typical AAA full health regen. They would be piss easy, because you could simply go into cover for some seconds and try over and over again. "The end" wouldn't be one of the best boss fights ever, but actually laughable. It would be boring as hell and you wouldn't have to learn the bosses unless they are able to kill you in one hit, which would make regenerating health pointless.

When did I say it was a great example? It was an example of a difficult game that uses regenerating health.

Funny how your Nightmare mode in Doom example is valid, but my World at War in Veteran mode is not.

And yeah, a boss encounter that's designed in mind with a certain health system won't work with a different health system. Great fucking insight there, dude. Groundbreaking stuff, really.

 

[NullPointer]

Well that's completely destroyed in Dark Souls. Consumables that aren't estus return in Dark Souls 2 BUT they are slow healing so they're nowhere nearly as broken as grass was in demon's.

Good to read. Looking forward to checking it out once it inevitably hits the PS4.

 

[badcrumble]

Realism isn't always a requirement, but immersion can be, and some systems are more immersive - but I agree that direct gameplay considerations come first. But even then different systems and even different implementations of the same basic idea can create entirely different gameplay realities.

Hell, scooping up a medpack and having it instamatically max out your health is one thing, whereas stopping to apply a medkit in Left 4 Dead is a wholly different matter in terms of immersion and implications.

In a perfect world you pick the mechanics that not only establish and reinforce the game's core gameplay elements but that also increase immersion. Sometimes that'll be regenerating health for a superhero game, sometimes it'll be something else entirely like the luck system used to great effect in Brothers in Arms. As long as the mechanics are being thoughtfully chosen, and not just picked out of making things easier to develop or just because "that's how its done now" than I'm all on-board.

Having it take time to apply medkits can be a great piece of balance, but I don't think it's *ever* more immersive to have something effectively shut off your controls for a little while as it happens (which is the case with the way some games handle that).

 

[zackmorris]

They really do.

In a game with limited health you try not to get hit at all - that means smart use of cover, getting the drop on enemies, and not shifting position across active enemy fields of fire. In a game with regenerating health or shields you have a window of damage absorption where you can pull off crazy aggro moves, shrug off some hits and then retreat to safety.

The health system absolutely plays into a game's tactics.

I don't really agree for the majority of players. If your playing a game on hard difficulty maybe, but that means you play a lot of games and would probably take a similar strategy even with regen health, because if the difficulty is high enough you die quick even with regen health.
But most players who are on normal or easy, I don't see it causing them to change their play style.

 

[_hekk05]

We can avoid the word "shoehorned" if necessary, but these stories are very easy to rewrite. I strongly suspect that the mechanic precedes the story, and not the other way around.

If it is the other way around, that's even worse; they allowed a silly story to force them to make bad game design decisions, rather than just reworking the story a bit. It's not like the story is some masterpiece, here, or a work of non-fiction.

Iirc augustine turned Delsin's entire tribe into modern art. Delsin was also tortured (you faint and wake up a week later fully healed), while the others slowly die. Given that saving the tribe is literally the reason to go confront augustine, I'd say the healing power is crucial as part of the story.

 

[IvorB]

Let the health system fit the game. It works in InFamous. It would really break the pace of the game if you had to disengage the fight to go looking around for a health pack.

 

[Saty]

Let the health system fit the game. It works in InFamous. It would really break the pace of the game if you had to disengage the fight to go looking around for a health pack.

If the game had used medpacks, i'd argue that you shouldn't be running like a chicken with it's head off searching for pickups amid fights.

Secondly, as the video is one example of, this system already 'trains' players to break the pace of the game by encouraging\rewarding continuous retreating and hiding.

Thirdly, my point is about full-regen vs partail regen. I've yet to play a game that i thought benefited by the fact you recharge all your health instead of only part of it. Partial has all the pluses of regenerative health system and it minimizes its negatives. In my mind, full-regen health system should be retired and are pretty much obsolete in light of partial\segmented regen health systems.

 

[More_Badass]

It's pretty simple. Every game is different. In some, health regen works, in others, it doesn't.