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[User 100115]

Some of you Magic folk will share my pain here: I used to have a beta Birds of Paradise (I have a lot of beta cards, actually, since that's when I started playing), but Marrec lost it.

MARREC! *fist shake*

 

[y2dvd]

To be honest, I can't quite tell who is female or male on here unless stated.

I'm a hamster is all yall need to know!

I know quite a few girls that are obsessed with videogames. They probably just don't know this site exist quite simply.

 

[Lasthope106]

I wonder what would happen if GAF had as many women as it does men. How would the discussions be different, and if my perception of life would change. Guess will never know.

 

[shanshan310]

First off, I didn't say those women (And men for that matter) weren't gamers, I said the games they play aren't the type of games typically talked about here. There are maybe a handful of threads about mobile/facebook games here, so people who only enjoy those games wouldn't feel the need to sign up. That doesn't make those people any less of gamers, it means that they would never come here because we don't talk about what they like very often. Your SimCity and GTA examples aren't apt because they are very often a point of discussion here. I'm not discounting mobile games because I think they aren't games, I'm discounting them because it's not a very heavy focus here on NeoGAF, which absolutely should be taken into account.

That's like making a forum where most of the conversation skews toward discussion of American Football and then wondering why people who love Soccer aren't showing up to talk about soccer. They're both sports, but they serve different people who want different things from a sport so it's silly to say that discounting the content of the forum shouldn't be taken into account when talking about why different people wouldn't be there.

There are probably millions of gamers who only play mobile and facebook games and have no interest past it, so they would never even think of going on an internet forum and discussing PS3/360 games. It just falls out of their interest zone of video games.

I was speaking generally, but fair enough. Again, I don't think you can say that it falls out of their interest zone. 20% of xbox/ps players being female also doesn't seem to translate across to this forum's gender ratio, so I would say that there are other factors at play rather than "women don't play xbox/ps games". At least, it's not the sole reason.

 

[Messofanego]

OK, I know I said I was out but...

Seriously? I think most people would say gaming is a traditionally boyish hobby. See: bald space marines, guns, GTA, terrible treatment of women, sexist stereotypes and every other charge levelled at the hobby for the past 20 years. I can see now why our opinions were at odds

First, we need to get rid of this hardcore and casual separation. Heck, people on GAF would consider many popular games as casual (Uncharted, Ass Creed, GTA, Madden, etc).

There are genres that resonate with women quite a bit more like puzzle and adventure games since the very beginning (Broken Sword, The Longest Journey), and there are genres that resonate with men more like shooters or action games. Just because the men-appealing games sell a whole lot more, I don't see that as a way to generalise this medium as a boyish hobby. My sister is huge into fighting and racing games, while I'm not as much so I don't see the gender divide that obvious. If the "what's popular" logic was applied to other mediums, reading books would now be a soccer mom hobby, and movies would be a comic book fan hobby. Doesn't seem like a balanced perspective to me especially for something that can be so variable at any time in history.

 

[Tablo]

What? Have you ever met a woman before?
And obviously only women make up that casual gaming statistic right? :|

Anecdotal evidence shouldn't count alot, but from what I've seen it's 90% women/girls who play specifically candy crush on their phones, nonstop. I'm sure many guys do as well, but I don't think I'm too wrong that there is a large percentage of women/girls who solely play those casual phone games 90% of the time, even if they have a console at home. I see it, and I don't think I'm the only one.

 

[NeoGeoOwner]

I made my wife an account. So she can post too if she wants.

Yours,

Franck

 

[shanshan310]

And here we have a fundamental difference between the sexes: we both hear games, but you think Pikachu, I think headshots. This means you are definitely a better adjusted person than I am! But also, it shows me that this last generation has certainly pushed all it's chips into the 'boys' corner of the table. You're right - the games I grew up on were pretty much unisex but very few are today (I don't have a nintendo console at least...).

Very interesting.

I really have to stop posting in here and do some work today...

mm, definitely interesting.

Good luck with the work!

 

[hey_monkey]

Isn't this an anecdotal observation? Because my anecdotal observation is that most of the girls that I grew up with aren't the least bit interested in video games. It's quite frankly a miracle that I stayed friends with them all this time. Here's another one. I've never ever seen a girl in an arcade before back when they were popular. Oddly enough, there are plenty in Asian arcades due to games like Taiko no Tatsujin and Jubeat.

There is limited research on these issues. What do we have that isn't anecdotal then?

 

[Tablo]

That great. Really.

But not everyone does. In fact, most people don't. So yeah, women have a hard time of it simply because they are women. To keep it on topic of this thread, you will never experience the feeling of walking into say, a Magic the Gathering tourny, and having every single eye turn to you. Some are speculative. Some are glaring. All immediately treat you like a second class citizen. You are either there as arm candy, or fucked your way into the game, or don't know what you are doing and are there for the attention. There is NO WAY you are there because you love the game and are decent at it.

That's what it's like a lot of the time for women who enjoy these things.

Yeah that's pretty sad, getting glared at is one thing (happens to me at korean hip hop concerts being part of the 1% non asian there. But being mistreated and subject to assumptions like that is indeed terrible. At a point though being singled out sometimes is to be expected in any context, but being mistreated if what you said is true, is irrespectful as hell.

 

[Jarate]

Not to derail the conversation, as I'm not female and can't offer any perspective on that front. However, I will say that Magic is something that I wish I could get more into. I really like playing the game itself, but I have next to no interest in deck construction.

just do what every other 12 year old tryhard does and build a net deck!

 

[User 100115]

Anecdotal evidence shouldn't count alot, but from what I've seen it's 90% women/girls who play specifically candy crush on their phones, nonstop. I'm sure many guys do as well, but I don't think I'm too wrong that there is a large percentage of women/girls who solely play those casual phone games 90% of the time, even if they have a console at home. I see it, and I don't think I'm the only one.

I play Candy Crush!

I also play Halo, Skyrim, LOL, ran a raiding guild on Wow for years, and remember F-Zero fondly.

 

[voodoopanda]

Whenever these sorts of discussions happen, it always seems like a mix of stereotypes, societal "norms," anecdotes, and bits and pieces of statistics that when all put together fall apart in the face of actual people. I think the best approach to figure this kind of thing out would be to listen to the women talking about why they post here/why they wouldn't. You get a lot of different kinds of responses, I'm sure, but they're all be a lot more relevant and truthful than any guesses based on the stuff I listed before.

 

[The Technomancer]

Honestly on the whole "game stores are hostile" thing: I'm a guy and even I don't particularly enjoy going to game stores to play Magic or other hobby games. Its primarily a social thing for me and a bunch of friends and I (including a couple girls) play at a friend's apartment instead of going to some store.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

For a long time I believe GAF was a pretty small forum, that was more like a boy's club than a gender-neutral video game forum. It's from those old days that a more insular culture was developed, which through memes like "fuck her up the ass" (fhuta) and "tranny surprise" pushed away a lot of potential forumites that weren't cis-males.

As GAF grew, this culture resulted in the majority of new juniors being more of the same. At some point though I believe a number of repellent memes & behaviours were outright banned and since then the GAF population has grown more diverse.

 

[Takuan]

There are more vocal male nerds than vocal female nerds, that's my guess.

Not to derail the conversation, as I'm not female and can't offer any perspective on that front. However, I will say that Magic is something that I wish I could get more into. I really like playing the game itself, but I have next to no interest in deck construction.

DUEL DECKS, baby! $20 or less for hours of fun.

 

[hey_monkey]

GD Skyrim was so overrated. I went back and replayed Oblivion to make myself feel better. Not that I didn't play the nuts off Skyrim, but I did it bitterly.

Last game I loved was State of Decay. Fun, fun times. Wish I had more time to play these days....

 

[Chojin]

So many are my feelings.

Yeah, it's important at times to say "dudes, hang on, that's sexist, slow your roll." But sometimes it's also not important to anyone. Like, I am annoyed that every third page or so of the Walking Dead thread is hnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng Maggie (with the same pic quoted ten times), but it's not ruining my day and it's a part of fandom as much as discussion the perpetual badassery of Darryl. It just means I scroll more. But is it objectifying? Fuck yeah it is, and I roll my eyes, and just scroll past all the cries of waifu! Other examples that were brought up, though, like the "woulds" every time a woman is posted anywhere, then yes. I think maybe all we reasonable people (cross-gender) could maybe police that a little more. But...

Heh, that reminds me of my best friend. When we watch movies he has to constantly reassert his masculinity by verbally stating how much he likes boobs or vagina when it shows up on screen. As if he didn't say it out loud it wouldn't be and he could possibly have caught teh gays.

To me I think guys can be wired like that. It's silly and juvenile and honestly I never got the point. Well I mean don't get me wrong, its not like I felt a sexual response or a "DAAAYUM" when I saw a nice ass, but I never understood the whole verbalizing part. Maybe its part of our lizard brains where we have to "verbally" tag something. On a subconscience level it makes sense, its instinctual for a male of a species to want to dominate or at least "claim" a female. We've "evolved" to the point of instead of just oonga boonga club and drag ot the cave to "Would".

Baby steps in other words

Honestly from a male perspective I'm used to it and that may be part of the problem. It doesn't bother me because forums are like lockerroom talk. However while its anonymous for a few while its really not for others. Don't get me wrong, women can be just as disgusting when objectifying men, usually its not so open in a public forum however. Again like I said previously to me it boils down to perspective. Because we perceive things from different points of view there's inevitably going to be clash.

But seriously, I think we're grown up enough to know if it makes people uncomfortable in a public setting that we should be able to reign it in. I think "well guys gonna be guys" is a weak and lame excuse, its just polite if something is offensive and comments like "would" or "dem tittays" don't exactly contribute anything unless its specific to the thread (Dat Ass thread, I contributed ) and if others find it innapropriate I think a healthy discussion on it wuold be the best course of action and see where we go from there.

 

[Miss Riot]

GD Skyrim was so overrated. I went back and replayed Oblivion to make myself feel better. Not that I didn't play the nuts off Skyrim, but I did it bitterly.

Last game I loved was State of Decay. Fun, fun times. Wish I had more time to play these days....

I can't start a new game because I'm way too attached to the guys I met that were randomly generated. I'd lose them all =(

 

[y2dvd]

That great. Really.

But not everyone does. In fact, most people don't. So yeah, women have a hard time of it simply because they are women. To keep it on topic of this thread, you will never experience the feeling of walking into say, a Magic the Gathering tourny, and having every single eye turn to you. Some are speculative. Some are glaring. All immediately treat you like a second class citizen. You are either there as arm candy, or fucked your way into the game, or don't know what you are doing and are there for the attention. There is NO WAY you are there because you love the game and are decent at it.

That's what it's like a lot of the time for women who enjoy these things.

What's funny is I remember playing against a girl at FNM one night and I thought she was a dick like any other douchy guy lol. She got up after her loss and didn't even shake my hand. Point was I hated her as much as I would've hated any guy in her place doing the same thing. Equal hating!

 

[Chojin]

I play Candy Crush!

I also play Halo, Skyrim, LOL, ran a raiding guild on Wow for years, and remember F-Zero fondly.

Hell I play Candy Crush, I'll admit it. I also play Style Savvy and Harvest Moon along with my System Shock 2 and Tropico 4 and GTA V.

Games is games.

I think other's hit the nail on the head with "cliquery" if that could be a word. A lot of people in gaming groups, like DnD groups or Magic circles will stick together with people they've known for a long time, and while some have women in them and play just as much as the rest of the guys a lot can have a lot of guys only. This can contribute to the mentality of a boys club when they go online or go to a convention and while its misinformed on how they treat women, its not hard to tell why.

And yeah there's going to be a lot of social stigma

Take my two coworkers that sit next to me, one his a Sony fan boy and the other is an Xbox Fanboy, they think I'm not a "hardcore" gamer because I own an XBox, WiiU and a PS3 and play on my PC because I don't "stick" to one company. They consider themselevs "hardcore" gamers when the Xbot is a COD only player and the Sony guy plays nothing but Fifa, they think I'm a "wuss" because I like those silly "jap" games.

It doens't bother me and kinda makes me laugh but again its all about perspective. Those guys aren't going to be thinking about women and gaming or give it anything but a passive glance, but consider themselves to be "hardcore". Granted in terms of video game sales, their that demographic But from an enthusiasts perspective they're the casuals.

 

[Zoe]

Every time I hear female/male versus woman/man, I think of that ER scene where the English doctors chide Alex for using an adjective rather than a noun.

 

[hey_monkey]

But seriously, I think we're grown up enough to know if it makes people uncomfortable in a public setting that we should be able to reign it in. I think "well guys gonna be guys" is a weak and lame excuse, its just polite if something is offensive and comments like "would" or "dem tittays" don't exactly contribute anything unless its specific to the thread (Dat Ass thread, I contributed ) and if others find it innapropriate I think a healthy discussion on it wuold be the best course of action and see where we go from there.

I wanted to quote this mostly because I liked it. But I also agree with your idea of baby steps. Hell, look at this three years ago. Most days, I'm really impressed with GAF-now, considering where GAF was when I first joined, and can only imagine GAF before that.

I can't start a new game because I'm way too attached to the guys I met that were randomly generated. I'd lose them all =(

The first time I lost someone on a playthrough I had legit goddamn feelings.

 

[RangerX]

Its been said many times in the thread already but the fact is male gamers vastly outnumber female gamers. There really is'nt more to it then that. Out of all my female friends only one of them plays games. There is definitely an argument to be had over how we can be more accomodating to female members. Those "celebrity sure is looking good" threads are really fucking creepy. I actually think some members go too far in creating threads that are far too personal, like discussing how big their dick is. What woman is going to want to get involved in that discussion.

Also i generally can't tell if a poster is female or not unless they have mentioned it previously.

 

[Miss Riot]

The first time I lost someone on a playthrough I had legit goddamn feelings.

I.........ashamedly shut off my 360 when it happened to avoid feeling that.

 

[User 100115]

I actually think some members go too far in creating threads that are far too personal, like discussing how big their dick is. What woman is going to want to get involved in that discussion.

A bunch of us actually got involved in one of the 'Gaf my dick is too small' threads. Mostly to repeat over and over that size doesn't matter to us, and have a bunch of guys tell us 'that's not true, you're lying'.

 

[Kentpaul]

I wonder what would happen if GAF had as many women as it does men. How would the discussions be different, and if my perception of life would change. Guess will never know.

Lots of relationships would spring up.

 

[Horse Detective]

Lots of relationships would spring up.

that would be awesome

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Every time I hear female/male versus woman/man, I think of that ER scene where the English doctors chide Alex for using an adjective rather than a noun.

Looking it up on dictionary.com it's a noun as well as an adjective.

I use male/female all the time especially since I like to look for comparisons and differences across different animals. In that sense male/female seems more appropriate to me than using men/women to describe variants within different species.

 

[hey_monkey]

I actually think some members go too far in creating threads that are far too personal, like discussing how big their dick is. What woman is going to want to get involved in that discussion.

There were a lot of women in a recent thread like that. I was one of them. I'll talk about dicks all day, dude!

No, seriously, that was one in which women who were trying to be supportive were repeated directly and indirectly called liars, because obviously big dick is all that matters in sex in 100% of encounters.

edit: beaten, goddammit. fiction, you... /fistshake

 

[Malvolio]

A bunch of us actually got involved on one of the 'Gaf my dick is too small' threads. Mostly to repeat over and over that size doesn't matter to us, and have a bunch of guys tell us 'that's not true, you're lying'.

But if that's true I might have to actually work on the parts of me that I can change!

 

[User 100115]

There were a lot of women in a recent thread like that. I was one of them. I'll talk about dicks all day, dude!

No, seriously, that was one in which women who were trying to be supportive were repeated directly and indirectly called liars, because obviously big dick is all that matters in sex in 100% of encounters.

edit: beaten, goddammit. fiction, you... /fistshake

Hey, it just confirms what I said

But if that's true I might have to actually work on the parts of me that I can change!

It's really shocking to me how much dick size matters to guys. You'd think they were the ones erm...using it the way we do.

 

[RangerX]

There were a lot of women in a recent thread like that. I was one of them. I'll talk about dicks all day, dude!

No, seriously, that was one in which women who were trying to be supportive were repeated directly and indirectly called liars, because obviously big dick is all that matters in sex in 100% of encounters.

edit: beaten, goddammit. fiction, you... /fistshake

Yeah thats exactly why i think women are going to be turned away and post less. Some men in here( a minority) are'nt capable of having a grown up discussion about those kind of things

 

[FallingEdge]

It's really shocking to me how much dick size matters to guys. You'd think they were the ones erm...using it the way we do.

It is a confidence thing. Ego is tied into it. Porn, etc. Talking to ladies, I've heard that girth is more important than length. It all really depends. In the end, you can only work with what you have. Run with it.

 

[hey_monkey]

It's strange how much all this shit matters, because at some point social groups decided it was supposed to matter. Like my husband is balding and I had a hard time with that at first. I love him, I've loved him for twenty years, but when we started talking again (after lots of moving around the country and all) and he mentioned he was losing his hair, I had a moment of pause (not like I'm any fucking prize, but).

And then I realized it wouldn't fucking matter, and it didn't, and all is glorious every day, and when I see him, even his silly little bald spot, my heart skips all kinds of beats. I would lick it, probably, but he would freak out 'cause that's weird. No shame.

 

[Chojin]

A bunch of us actually got involved on one of the 'Gaf my dick is too small' threads. Mostly to repeat over and over that size doesn't matter to us, and have a bunch of guys tell us 'that's not true, you're lying'.

Now you know the reason for all of man's suffering, why wars are waged and why there will always be eternal conflict Insecurity is an asshole.

From another perspective though, I had to get married to realize how insecure women can be as well. I know that sounds like a harsh word but I can't find a better word for it. For example, my wife constantly at least compared to me is obsessed with how she looks. Some could say its due to external factors, pressures of society and I could see it like that but after us now living together it seems way more personal than due to peer pressure. Nobody around her is telling her she needs to change her looks. Or maybe I'm just that deaf and dumb to adverstising, but even if that is the case, why should any woman bow before the almighty marketing? It really doesn't make any sense to me. Her peers since she's moved here have been nothing but sweet and nice to her, so its not our friends pressuring her into her looks, I know its not me, I'm the slobbiest of slobs, if anything she's trying to pressure me She won't let me keep my stank old undies and she's always trying to replace them in a months time.

 

[hey_monkey]

Yeah thats exactly why i think women are going to be turned away and post less. Some men in here( a minority) are'nt capable of having a grown up discussion about those kind of things

you mean it could be something other than BECAUSE GAMES?

a medal for this poster. a medal.

 

[Jarate]

It's really shocking to me how much dick size matters to guys. You'd think they were the ones erm...using it the way we do.

there's a great book called Billion Wicked Thoughts: What the Internet Tells Us About Sexual Relationships that talks about why men love dicks so much.

here's a snippet of a lecture one of the authors on youtube that briefly talks about why men love dicks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4

 

[Miss Riot]

re: dick size

the size doesn't matter. normal dick is usually good. barring unfortunate cases, it all boils down to who is attached to it and as long as you're not in the 1% of bad luck cases you're more than fine.

 

[FallingEdge]

It's strange how much all this shit matters, because at some point social groups decided it was supposed to matter. Like my husband is balding and I had a hard time with that at first. I love him, I've loved him for twenty years, but when we started talking again (after lots of moving around the country and all) and he mentioned he was losing his hair, I had a moment of pause (not like I'm any fucking prize, but).

And then I realized it wouldn't fucking matter, and it didn't, and all is glorious every day, and when I see him, even his silly little bald spot, my heart skips all kinds of beats. I would lick it, probably, but he would freak out 'cause that's weird. No shame.

I'm a guy and I'm super self conscious about my body. There are days in which I feel flat, fat, skinny, weak, flabby, tiny, etc. Comes and goes.

 

[RangerX]

you mean it could be something other than BECAUSE GAMES?

a medal for this poster. a medal.

I genuinely can't tell if this taking the piss out of me or not.

 

[User 100115]

Now you know the reason for all of man's suffering, why wars are waged and why there will always be eternal conflict Insecurity is an asshole.

From another perspective though, I had to get married to realize how insecure women can be as well. I know that sounds like a harsh word but I can't find a better word for it. For example, my wife constantly at least compared to me is obsessed with how she looks. Some could say its due to external factors, pressures of society and I could see it like that but after us now living together it seems way more personal than due to peer pressure. Nobody around her is telling her she needs to change her looks. Or maybe I'm just that deaf and dumb to adverstising, but even if that is the case, why should any woman bow before the almighty marketing? It really doesn't make any sense to me. Her peers since she's moved here have been nothing but sweet and nice to her, so its not our friends pressuring her into her looks, I know its not me, I'm the slobbiest of slobs, if anything she's trying to pressure me She won't let me keep my stank old undies and she's always trying to replace them in a months time.

I think everyone is susceptible to insecurity; I am not overweight by any means, but since I am not incredibly underweight like I used to be, I feel fat as hell. And yeah, a lot of it has to do with how women in media look.

I wish guys would stop comparing themselves to porn too. There's a reason those guys are in porn, and I've NEVER seen dicks that big in the wild. I think I'd run screaming if I had. Owwwww.

Conversely, I have also felt 'weird' after watching porn, due to how the ladies look, but I realize that bleach is a thing and move on.

 

[FallingEdge]

I think everyone is susceptible to insecurity; I am not overweight by any means, but since I am not incredibly underweight like I used to be, I feel fat as hell. And yeah, a lot of it has to do with how women in media look.

I wish guys would stop comparing themselves to porn too. There's a reason those guys are in porn, and I've NEVER seen dicks that big in the wild. I think I'd run screaming if I had. Owwwww.

Conversely, I have also felt 'weird' after watching porn, due to how the ladies look, but I realize that bleach is a thing and move on.

Not to mention, angles as well. Not saying they don't have big dicks up the angle makes it look a lot bigger as well.

Unless it is amateur. Amateur is the best.

 

[Stinkles]

Because the internet is a tightly sealed jar, and only a man is strong enough to open it.

 

[User 100115]

Not to mention, angles as well. Not saying they don't have big dicks up the angle makes it look a lot bigger as well.

That makes me feel a bit better actually, I didn't know they did the angle thing. Cause some of the porn penis I've seen seemed physically impossible.

 

[The Librarian]

Because the internet is a tightly sealed jar, and only a man is strong enough to open it.

Well, from experience I know that banging the edges of the seal with a spoon works wonders in making it easier to open.

 

[hey_monkey]

I genuinely can't tell if this taking the piss out of me or not.

No piss-taking. It's refreshing to see someone else talking about the nuances beyond "but mostly dudes play games so mostly dudes post."

 

[SmokyDave]

Yeah thats exactly why i think women are going to be turned away and post less. Some men in here( a minority) are'nt capable of having a grown up discussion about those kind of things

So why would that turn away more women than men?

Why wouldn't they just dodge those topics? I don't walk away because people are talking about anime and sports elsewhere on the site, yet those two topics bore the tits off me.

I'm not buying it. I think your theory places too much importance on infrequent and peripheral threads.

No piss-taking. It's refreshing to see someone else talking about the nuances beyond "but mostly dudes play games so mostly dudes post."

And you think 'occasional penis chat on the off-topic side of a games site can be immature' is a likelier reason?

Nah. That dog ain't gon' hunt.

 

[Jarate]

That makes me feel a bit better actually, I didn't know they did the angle thing. Cause some of the porn penis I've seen seemed physically impossible.

it's a mixture of angles, camera techniques, and many other little things

Usually dicks in porn are around 6-8 inches, with men that are usually 5'7"-6'0". The bigger you are, the "smaller" your penis will look on camera (perspective, and such)

also, camera tricks are super important in porn, it's how you make the dick look huge, and how you make the girls look pretty. Think of it like myspace angles, same type of idea

 

[FallingEdge]

That makes me feel a bit better actually, I didn't know they did the angle thing. Cause some of the porn penis I've seen seemed physically impossible.

Oh yeah. They use angles, smaller girls, proportion, etc. Not all, but it is a lot more common than you think.

Unless you are talking about Mandingo or Steele or something like that. No magic tricks needed there lol.