• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Why is Nintendo incapable of emulating their own games properly?

maniac-kun

Member
Sep 14, 2006
10,062
2
0
So i bought A Link To The Past on Wii U. Why is the sound cracking up at the title menu / fountain?

And is there a lot of input lag on N64 titles?
 

Rich!

Member
Dec 16, 2009
29,977
2
0
So i bought A Link To The Past on Wii U. Why is the sound cracking up at the title menu / fountain?

And is there a lot of input lag on N64 titles?
Are you in the UK, EU or Australia/NZ? If so, welcome to hell.

And to the second point, yes in some games. I find Mario 64 to be unplayable.
 

dity

Member
Jul 13, 2015
8,831
0
0
Worth noting that setting RenderScale to 4 just causes the graphics to be a garbled mess, almost like looking at a untuned CRT TV but in color. So the best we have is 2x, but that's still far better than Nintendo allow.
Damn it Nintendo. Why isn't 2x the default? It's not like you're on PC and have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
 

Rich!

Member
Dec 16, 2009
29,977
2
0
Im from Germany so... whats the problem?
The problem is you just bought a gimped version.

Now you unfortunately understand what we have to suffer with here in PAL Nintendo VC Land.

Heed the lesson and don't buy another VC title unless it is specifically listed as the 60hz USA version. Unfortunately quite a few are fucked for us with EU consoles including LTTP, Super Metroid, DKC2. They are all botched releases.
 

MacTag

Banned
Jan 5, 2016
2,315
0
0
Oh man, the filtering, color and resolution revelations are so disheartening. I'll never understand why Nintendo didn't allow user options for all this stuff. Maybe they'll finally get it right on Virtual Console 3.0.
 

Whales

Member
Nov 10, 2015
2,837
0
0


Squares A and B are the exact same color but it's hard to tell because of what they're surrounded by.


I will never understand this optical illusion
I just don't get it


As for the emulation, I thought its been known for a while now? But yeah, I have no clue wtf is going on at nintendo, they dont even care about vc it seems...
 

G0523

Member
Sep 24, 2009
4,451
0
0
33
Cleveland, OH
DK64 is already an official Wii U VC game
I know. I was asking more for stress test's sake. I'm curious to know how far it can go before it is unable to run certain N64 games. DK64 and Majora's Mask were ones off the top of my head that I know pushed the original hardware. If we can have access to the entire N64 library through homebrew without any hiccups, then that would be amazing. Even DK64 doesn't run 100% well through Wii U Virtual Console.

I guess other games I would ask about if they ran well through homebrew would be Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day since those games pushed the N64 too.
 

NOLA_Gaffer

Member
Jun 15, 2015
11,726
580
500
33
Okay, setting JUST RenderScale to 2 and touching no other setting (which I did first time) keeps the rendering stable and full speed. So uh, yeah, the setting for higher-def DS games is there, Nintendo just chose to not make it an option.
It's probably not 100% compatible across all games, to be fair.
 

Rich!

Member
Dec 16, 2009
29,977
2
0
It's probably not 100% compatible across all games, to be fair.
But it doesn't need to be enabled for all games. Each VC game has its own unique ini file.

I've just been playing Mario 64 DS and Mario Kart DS in 2x scale mode and they run full speed with no issues at all.
 

dity

Member
Jul 13, 2015
8,831
0
0
I know. I was asking more for stress test's sake. I'm curious to know how far it can go before it is unable to run certain N64 games. DK64 and Majora's Mask were ones off the top of my head that I know pushed the original hardware. If we can have access to the entire N64 library through homebrew without any hiccups, then that would be amazing. Even DK64 doesn't run 100% well through Wii U Virtual Console.

I guess other games I would ask about if they ran well through homebrew would be Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day since those games pushed the N64 too.
The fact that DK64 can't be made widescreen via VC is just bloody stupid.
 

Blues1990

Member
Jul 6, 2013
11,629
0
0
Right.

For those who do not know, the Wii U has been hacked wide open. I've just tried out the new kernel exploit and all I had to do was literally go onto a website link and it booted the homebrew channel (wii u version) from my SD.

Aside from the obvious usage of backups and homebrew, there's also the fact that we can fix this shit now. Using this app you can dump any digital title on your Wii U to the SD card. yay, backups!

Anyhow, the emulator packages are very neatly laid out. Injecting a new ROM is as simple as dragging and dropping and changing the ID. In the case of DS games, it's literally the DS ROM in a zip file! I got chrono trigger working with no issues.

Moving on....decompress the emulator file for the NES/SNES/N64 title you've dumped, and you get a load of settings...in particular...



oh whats that? gamma setting? lol

should be trivial to just edit that and load the edited VC title via loadiine. Without the shitty filters.

Oh and also, I've just dumped one of my unfortunate 50hz purchases and replaced it with a 60hz ROM. Works fine.

homebrew fixing nintendo's shit yet again
Shit just got real.

I'd turn off the NES blur filter, myself.
That seems to be one of the options.

Anyhow, it seems you can indeed turn off the blurring and fix the gamma. Which means Nintendo are for some insane reason purposefully fucking up their games. I mean, there's absolutely no disputing this now.

Like...why.
Holy shit!

If I can play Goof Troop and several other games though this, then I'll be golden! I just need to be sure that I don't brick my system, as well as needing an idiot-proof guide to set me up.

Also, you are right. What the hell are Nintendo trying to do with this?! At least give the user the option to adjust those features!
 

Beer Monkey

Member
Mar 3, 2005
23,926
5
1,225
Cincinnati
www.tehbias.com
Emulating only some of the Super Game Boy features sounds super hacky. You realize that that thing allowed execution of native SNES code, right?
You do know that 95% of the games didn't even use the SNES audio (meaning they ONLY used palletes and borders), and only one game (Space Invaders) used a SNES executable, right?

"Super hacky" is what Nintendo actually does (see PAL Super Metroid). Using palette and border information that is actually inside of the Gameboy carts and roms? Nothing hacky about that. It's just using data that is on the cart itself and which requires absolutely zero Super Gameboy emulation per se.

And again, even the Gameboy Color system logic has code to insert palettes into many, many games (even creating a fifth color in Donkey Kong (94) by using a different palette on the sprites than the playfield). Too "hacky" for you?
 

BONKERS

Member
Jul 26, 2013
1,843
38
435
Why is DK64 not being widescreen a problem?
I don't recall it running widescreen originally.
 

Rich!

Member
Dec 16, 2009
29,977
2
0
Why is DK64 not being widescreen a problem?
I don't recall it running widescreen originally.
Yes it did

Just like GoldenEye, Banjo Tooie and Perfect Dark, DK64 had a proper widescreen mode in the options.
 

dity

Member
Jul 13, 2015
8,831
0
0
I remember Goldeneye did. But didn't know DK64 did. Interesting
It's right there under options.

Same goes for surround sound (dolby digital) IIRC, but I'm fairly certain VC doesn't support any of those high-end options that were a pipe dream when you were a kid and entirely easily possible now. Can't have them when you were young, can't have them now. Damn it Nintendo.
 
Feb 28, 2012
882
0
0
Same goes for surround sound (dolby digital)
It was no real surround sound with seperate channels like Dolby Digital or DTS, but it was simple Dolby Surround (Pro Logic), where you have a surround mix passed through via stereo channels and the receiver then splits the signal for the different channels.
So it should be working with VC games, you just have to set your receiver to Dolby Pro Logic.

Gamecube and Wii used the successor of this: Dolby Pro Logic II.
And it works pretty well.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Mar 20, 2015
4,725
0
340
bull. shit.

The level of input lag in Mario 64 and the absolutely broken and butchered 50hz releases are anything but fine.

Go to the wrecked ship in Super Metroid (eu version) and tell me that glitched music is "mostly fine"

The only emulators Nintendo offer on the Wii U that come close to homebrew efforts are those that aren't even developed by them (such as DS and GBA). It's absolutely inexcusable. This is their legacy, their equivalent of Disney classics - and this is the best they can do?!

I'm not sure why you have a habit of blindly defending Nintendo's ass poor efforts at emulation and why you seem to actively try to dissuade people from using homebrew, but it's definitely grating on me.
I'll concede that those are some pretty serious issues. 50hz just generally isn't on my radar, since it's only really relevant in Europe. The input lag is a thing (though seemingly not always, which is weird), though it is somewhat peripheral to the emulation itself.

The thing I really take issue with though is people asserting that the emulation is crap just because of the post-processing filters or lack of options. The VC service is definitely in need of some major improvements, but the quality of the emulation itself is, in most cases, perfectly fine.

You do know that 95% of the games didn't even use the SNES audio (meaning they ONLY used palletes and borders), and only one game (Space Invaders) used a SNES executable, right?

"Super hacky" is what Nintendo actually does (see PAL Super Metroid). Using palette and border information that is actually inside of the Gameboy carts and roms? Nothing hacky about that. It's just using data that is on the cart itself and which requires absolutely zero Super Gameboy emulation per se.

And again, even the Gameboy Color system logic has code to insert palettes into many, many games (even creating a fifth color in Donkey Kong (94) by using a different palette on the sprites than the playfield). Too "hacky" for you?
Having a Game Boy Color mode definitely would have been reasonable. It's a little odd that they don't have that, since it should have been relatively easy.

Partial Super Game Boy support just doesn't really sit right with me because you're basically advertising to the games that you support features that you don't actually have. It isn't the worst thing in the world, but, if they're going to do it, they really should go all the way.
 

dity

Member
Jul 13, 2015
8,831
0
0
It was no real surround sound with seperate channels like Dolby Digital or DTS, but it was simple Dolby Surround (Pro Logic), where you have a surround mix passed through via stereo channels and the receiver then splits the signal for the different channels.
So it should be working with VC games, you just have to set your receiver to Dolby Pro Logic.

Gamecube and Wii used the successor of this: Dolby Pro Logic II.
And it works pretty well.
Fairly certain though that the media encoded in such a format can tell the receiver what should go where, rather than the receiver trying to figure it out itself. I don't know if that information is getting from a VC game to my receiver.
 
Feb 28, 2012
882
0
0
Fairly certain though that the media encoded in such a format can tell the receiver what should go where, rather than the receiver trying to figure it out itself. I don't know if that information is getting from a VC game to my receiver.
Sure the media is encoded in this way, to tell the AVR what should go where.
But it´s purely done by the games audiomix and as long as there is a stereo signal output, the information should be send correctly.
There is nothing special to it, it even works over analog like cinch.

On the Wii U though you have to set the output to stereo, because it doesn´t change automatically for VC games (as it does for Wii Mode).
 

Madao

Member
Apr 3, 2010
7,876
0
0
panama
www.youtube.com
i dont notice any input lag, im in NA
Oh... it's there...and a lot of it. Then again, I'm used to a CRT.
what's funnier is that this lag is bigger than Wii VC plugged to an HDTV in 480p. i tested a while ago and the inputs are not that slow on the original Wii.
i could tell right away Wii U VC was lagging and i play all my consoles on HDTV.
if you can feel lag on top of lag, that's when you know it's bad.
 

dity

Member
Jul 13, 2015
8,831
0
0
Sure the media is encoded in this way, to tell the AVR what should go where.
But it´s purely done by the games audiomix and as long as there is a stereo signal output, the information should be send correctly.
There is nothing special to it, it even works over analog like cinch.

On the Wii U though you have to set the output to stereo, because it doesn´t change automatically for VC games (as it does for Wii Mode).
See, I knew there'd be some bullshit goin' on. Compromises everywhere. Damn you Nintendo, damn youuuu!
 

Beer Monkey

Member
Mar 3, 2005
23,926
5
1,225
Cincinnati
www.tehbias.com
what's funnier is that this lag is bigger than Wii VC plugged to an HDTV in 480p. i tested a while ago and the inputs are not that slow on the original Wii.
i could tell right away Wii U VC was lagging and i play all my consoles on HDTV.
if you can feel lag on top of lag, that's when you know it's bad.
Wii VC plugged into a CRT is very low latency! It is the next best thing to playing on original hardware. I actually gave up my N64 and PC Engine collection and systems because all the games that I still care about on those platforms are on Wii VC and play splendidly there in low-lag 240p.
 

Link_enfant

Member
Dec 26, 2015
590
0
0
France
Wii VC plugged into a CRT is very low latency! It is the next best thing to playing on original hardware. I actually gave up my N64 and PC Engine collection and systems because all the games that I still care about on those platforms are on Wii VC and play splendidly there in low-lag 240p.
Don't they play in 480p on Wii VC?
Anyway I agree on this, Wii is a fantastic legal retro platform dispite the lack of many titles on the VC offer. Not as true in PAL region as usual, but still.

My only wish regarding future VC emulation on NX is the lack of input lag on every platform, including N64, which really is unforgivable on Wii U (even though it's "okay" on certain games).
 
Oh wow, I just transferred my Wii data to Wii U and paid the fee to upgrade Super Mario 64 and Paper Mario...then I find this thread. How badly did I done goof? 4 bucks isn't the end of the world, but I'd still rather not waste it on something that is completely awful. I just booted up Paper Mario, and yeah, it's strikingly dark. I guess I'll just play it in Wii mode, which is a shame, because Wii mode is so much clunkier and uglier to interact with.

Is there a definitive account of how the Wii U/3DS deal with each system on their respective Virtual Consoles? Like 3DS - Game Gear, great, Wii U - N64, skip, etc.? The GBA games on Wii U feel good to me...what's the general consensus there, even if they are slightly dark to remain "faithful" to the originals? And how do people feel about NES on 3DS? Most people in this thread seem to praise it, but then I read that the resolution is slightly stretched, which isn't great.

It's disheartening to hear/see these issues. While transferring my data, I was disappointed that stuff like Majora's Mask and Ogre Battle 64 couldn't be ported over, but I guess that's for the best. It's just bizarre to think that Nintendo actually did a *worse* job on their new console.
 
Jun 19, 2013
4,927
6
0
Another N64 game ruined on Wii U Virtual Console shocker: http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/11/soapbox_captain_falcon_we_have_a_problem_with_f-zero_x_on_wii_u

Of course none of this is new, the unacceptable analogue stick deadzone was something all the Wii U versions had, it's just that it's particularly noticeable on F Zero.

And StarFox 64. I'm surprised a fuss wasn't kicked up about that on Miiverse - when I played it it felt like I was using D-Pad controls to aim.

The funny thing is the trailer for the game shows the player struggling with the stick - look at how erratic small movements are due to the large deadzone: https://youtu.be/a6G-gYZtlwg
 

Link_enfant

Member
Dec 26, 2015
590
0
0
France
Now I really wish M2 or the guys behind NES Mini emulation (among other things) were also in charge of Wii U's N64 emulation. I've been supporting VC a lot in general, but just like Wii U's PAL DKC 2 on the EU eShop, I just won't give any money for this.
Still glad about Mario's Super Picross on New 3DS though, didn't get it on Wii U so I'm fine with it despite the lack of any release sale.
 

FoxSpirit

Junior Member
Sep 27, 2006
9,674
0
0
Now I really wish M2 or the guys behind NES Mini emulation (among other things) were also in charge of Wii U's N64 emulation. I've been supporting VC a lot in general, but just like Wii U's PAL DKC 2 on the EU eShop, I just won't give any money for this.
Still glad about Mario's Super Picross on New 3DS though, didn't get it on Wii U so I'm fine with it despite the lack of any release sale.
With Nintendo's history of emulation I don't trust the NES mini project one bit.
 
Jun 11, 2010
4,079
26
745
With Nintendo's history of emulation I don't trust the NES mini project one bit.
Units are out in the wild and people are saying they are well done. Plus there's gobs of direct feed footage now that press outfits have them. Also was developed by a completely different team than the Wii U VC software. So you can breathe a sigh of relief.
 
Jun 19, 2013
4,927
6
0
Hopefully NERD will work on more VC emulation on Switch. They also did DS VC on Wii U, right? I thought that was fairly solid, though the input lag with touch left a lot to be desired.

Honestly though, if Nintendo's going to take its sweet time rereleasing games on Virtual Console I'd rather they just went the remaster route, as in, like the 3D Classics on 3DS. It was great seeing stuff like Kirby's Adventure remade with no slowdown, but with the original graphics intact.
 

BlazeHedgehog

Member
Sep 11, 2007
8,465
0
1,025
www.bltn.net
Whatever happened with the F-Zero X stick issue for the Wii U VC version? Was that ever addressed? Also, did anyone ever find a way to kill the dark filter on all of these N64 games?
If you have a soft modded Wii U you can modify the emulator's XML config file to get rid of the filter but there is no user-surfaceable option
 
If you have a soft modded Wii U you can modify the emulator's XML config file to get rid of the filter but there is no user-surfaceable option
Interesting, thanks. Pretty crazy that it can be solved by just a few nip/tucks of an xml file. It shows how easy it would be for Nintendo to make this fix, but I guess they're just doubling down.

If I soft mod my Wii U, I suppose that would avoid my warranty? Is there any chance of bricking my system? I've never messed around with a console's innards before.
 

BlazeHedgehog

Member
Sep 11, 2007
8,465
0
1,025
www.bltn.net
Interesting, thanks. Pretty crazy that it can be solved by just a few nip/tucks of an xml file. It shows how easy it would be for Nintendo to make this fix, but I guess they're just doubling down.

If I soft mod my Wii U, I suppose that would avoid my warranty? Is there any chance of bricking my system? I've never messed around with a console's innards before.
It probably voids the warranty, yes. I've honestly never bothered soft modding my own Wii U, so in that regard you'd have to do some digging. GAF has a thread about methods, resources and more right here.
 

AtomicShroom

Member
Jul 8, 2004
5,357
0
0
39
Montreal, QC, Canada
Interesting, thanks. Pretty crazy that it can be solved by just a few nip/tucks of an xml file. It shows how easy it would be for Nintendo to make this fix, but I guess they're just doubling down.
Nintendo doesn't even consider that it needs fixing, because this filter is intentional. It was intentionally put in there as a blanket epilepsy prevention measure. So they're not about to remove it for any reason.

The team in charge of the NES Mini attempted another solution for epilepsy prevention, but I would argue it's even more catastrophic as it actually hinders gameplay instead of just being cosmetic!

Decidedly we're never getting these classics in their original form factor ever, not because of incompetence, but because of lawyers.
 

dallow_bg

nods at old men
May 8, 2007
28,696
4
0
Texas
www.dolefulorange.com
Nintendo doesn't even consider that it needs fixing, because this filter is intentional. It was intentionally put in there as a blanket epilepsy prevention measure. So they're not about to remove it for any reason.

The team in charge of the NES Mini attempted another solution for epilepsy prevention, but I would argue it's even more catastrophic as it actually hinders gameplay instead of just being cosmetic!

Decidedly we're never getting these classics in their original form factor ever, not because of incompetence, but because of lawyers.
What was the Mini's solution for it?
 

AtomicShroom

Member
Jul 8, 2004
5,357
0
0
39
Montreal, QC, Canada
What was the Mini's solution for it?
Whenever it detects a huge variation in contrast, it makes the screen freeze for a slight moment as it tries to interpolate the non-flashy screens in-between, which creates a freezy blurry mess.

See for yourself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdJsLWMqTUY&feature=youtu.be

Notice how Kirby just stops moving when a bomb explodes. This shit hinders gameplay!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP-ErdlfC4o&feature=youtu.be

Look at this shit! Whenever you hit the boss, you lose complete track of where your toad is for an entire second!
 

HoodWinked

Member
Jun 30, 2010
5,577
554
820
Earth
my guess is the darkening is a deliberate change to make games have less overall contrast/saturation for people who may be sensitive to color flashing

but also another thing is so that the source is easier to encode to the gamepad. lower contrast saturated video compresses better and the compressed product has less artifacting if there arent high contrast edges.