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Why is Nintendo incapable of emulating their own games properly?

Nanashrew

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Feb 16, 2014
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I think if these are intentional, maybe there should be an added option in the emulation menu to adjust brightness from -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5.



If they're not intentional then I hope they can be updated and fixed.
 
Apr 5, 2012
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What's with all the snark in this thread? None of it negates the fact that Nintendo for some inexplicable reason ruined the color palette of their own games by screwing around with the color balance.

Some people truly take any and all critiques of Nintendo personally and respond with baseless derision.
how dare you insult lord iwata? nintendo is amazing!!!
 
I think if these are intentional, maybe there should be an added option in the emulation menu to adjust brightness from -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5.



If they're not intentional then I hope they can be updated and fixed.
Come to think of it, they did this with the 3D Classics version of Kirby's Adventure. I remember being thrown way off with the default lighting until I discovered there was a varying brightness option.
 

Sophia

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Feb 8, 2008
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NES Virtual Console games on the 3DS don't look right either. They're all darker than they should be. I thought it was my screen at first, but after upgrading from an OG 3DS to a 3DS XL I realized there was no difference in color. :\
 
Feb 3, 2013
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I think if these are intentional, maybe there should be an added option in the emulation menu to adjust brightness from -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5.



If they're not intentional then I hope they can be updated and fixed.
This is the ideal solution, even if it isn't intentional. Just provide different brightness settings, with the original settings being "default". It can't be that hard, can it? I'm hoping for something like this with the NX, because it's clear that the Wii U VC is an afterthought.
 

Nerrel

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Oct 13, 2014
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I honestly don't know how they could screw something like this up. SNES games run flawlessly, but everything else is crap.
Not quite. The 8:7 to 4:3 stretching ruins it; once you see native 8:7, you can't go back: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=158978419&postcount=92


No Wii U VC platform has what I'd consider to be good emulation quality. The GBA is the closest, but the heavy handed gamma correction washes things out and muddles the color quality.

The NES takes the cake, though. What should be the simplest console to emulate ends up being the shittiest. The colors are awful and muted, and the general image is a blurry mess.

Seeing what Nintendo does with the same source content in Mario Maker makes it clear that they know how these games should look. That holds true for the NES and SNES Mario games- in Mario Maker, they both appear vibrant and sharp, with the original 8:7 proportions intact. Why the VC emulation is so far off the mark is a mystery.

And yes, the fact that 3DS does NES emulation way, way, better doesn't help clear it up any.
 

NamikazeBurst

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May 20, 2014
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I can confirm that this is true. When you enter the Virtual Console menu, the mini screenshot you see in the top left corner is what the game SHOULD look like. The title screens (on the Wii U OS) are also brighter than they are in-game.
So would this imply that the brightness settings are not applicable while in the VC menu? If the correct brightness settings are there in some way, then it is even weirder that the game brightness is way too dark.
 

Nanashrew

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Feb 16, 2014
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Come to think of it, they did this with the 3D Classics version of Kirby's Adventure. I remember being thrown way off with the default lighting until I discovered there was a varying brightness option.
I didn't know about that! Now they should just find a way to apply that to the rest of their emulators.
 

NormalFish

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Aug 14, 2014
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So would this imply that the brightness settings are not applicable while in the VC menu? If the correct brightness settings are there in some way, then it is even weirder that the game brightness is way too dark.
Honestly sounds like a bug, tbh. I wonder if this is the sort of thing that Nintendo are aware of but just don't think is worth fixing. Still finding it very hard to believe it's a design choice.
 

braves01

Banned
Nov 8, 2008
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All the Wii VC stuff is okay though, right? I didn't notice anything that seemed out of place with that stuff, whether SNES, N64, Neo Geo, TurboGrafx, or anything.
 

Converse

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Sep 29, 2013
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All the Wii VC stuff is okay though, right? I didn't notice anything that seemed out of place with that stuff, whether SNES, N64, Neo Geo, TurboGrafx, or anything.
No, NES games on the Wii have dark gamma correction and a somewhat blurred look, just like on the Wii U. SNES is still fine. Unsure of the N64 or other games, however.

EDIT:
Okay? thanks for letting me know.
Any time.
 

GAMERG0D

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Jun 2, 2012
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NES Virtual Console games on the 3DS don't look right either. They're all darker than they should be. I thought it was my screen at first, but after upgrading from an OG 3DS to a 3DS XL I realized there was no difference in color. :\
Yeah the colors in SMB3 are all wrong. It's a shame because I love the game so much.
 

Sophia

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Yeah the colors in SMB3 are all wrong. It's a shame because I love the game so much.
They're not as bad as the Wii U examples, but they're definitely darker. It was the first thing I noticed in Super C that the game didn't look right. And yeah, Super Mario Bros 3 does indeed have the same issue.

There's also scaling issues as a result of the 3DS's screen, but I'm not sure if there's a way to fix that tho. It's very nasty in Super C's top down stages.
 

Nanashrew

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Feb 16, 2014
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Not quite. The 8:7 to 4:3 stretching ruins it; once you see native 8:7, you can't go back: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=158978419&postcount=92


No Wii U VC platform has what I'd consider to be good emulation quality. The GBA is the closest, but the heavy handed gamma correction washes things out and muddles the color quality.

The NES takes the cake, though. What should be the simplest console to emulate ends up being the shittiest. The colors are awful and muted, and the general image is a blurry mess.

Seeing what Nintendo does with the same source content in Mario Maker makes it clear that they know how these games should look. That holds true for the NES and SNES Mario games- in Mario Maker, they both appear vibrant and sharp, with the original 8:7 proportions intact. Why the VC emulation is so far off the mark is a mystery.

And yes, the fact that 3DS does NES emulation way, way, better doesn't help clear it up any.
Oh yeah, 8:7 is great and wish that was an option too.

I still dream of the day that scanlines and scanline adjustment becomes available on consoles for back catalog games for even more accuracy to the image since so much detail is lost.
 
Feb 3, 2013
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Honestly sounds like a bug, tbh. I wonder if this is the sort of thing that Nintendo are aware of but just don't think is worth fixing. Still finding it very hard to believe it's a design choice.
I don't know what's wrong with their emulation, but here's some proof. This is the coup de grâce. The "restore point" image is how the game SHOULD look.

 

NormalFish

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Aug 14, 2014
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I don't know what's wrong with their emulation, but here's some proof. This is the coup de grâce. The "restore point" image is how the game SHOULD look.
Yeah it's definitely there. I just find it hard to believe they would deliberately make their games look duller like this. Usually when you have issues related to color accuracy on the part of publishers/tech companies/etc. it's about making things overly vibrant.
 

jnWake

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Mar 30, 2013
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Huh this is such a weird issue, wonder why it happens. They should just add brightness options and nobody would complain.

It doesn't bother me to be honest (I've played many GBA games so far in VC and loved them), but I can't understand why it happens or why there aren't more options.
 

RomanticHeroX

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May 11, 2009
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NES games have been dark muddy messes since the service started on the Wii U. I can't imagine them doing anything at all different at this point.
 

G0523

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Sep 24, 2009
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I was wondering the same thing when I was playing Donkey Kong 64 recently. I never played it when it originally came out but I'm just seeing that the Wii U VC version is too dark. Like I can't see where I'm going when I'm in the caves or near Cranky's Lab. I didn't think it was like this originally but I had to turn up the brightness on my TV anyway. Dunno why it's happening now.
 

Revven

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Jul 24, 2011
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they can be updated. even some Wii VC games were updated at some point to fix stuff (SF64 certainly was updated once and the old version wouldn't work until you downloaded it again)
Good to know, thanks.
 

Chindogg

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Oct 5, 2010
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It's definitely a weird bug that I wish Nintendo would fix.

Side note: Gonzo with the sensationalist topic name strikes again.
 

Meffer

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Jun 16, 2014
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It's obvious that it's darker. Damn, Nintendo really needs to give more options on VC.
 

Blues1990

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Jul 6, 2013
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wow that was a quick ban

I hope Nintendo will be forced into a response about what is going on here.
Yeah, why hasn't any news publication called out Nintendo for this? I did a test not too long ago, and apparently, the dark filter is only on when the game is being played. But tap the gamepad screen & check out the small screenshot box (where you can create save states), and the filter is turned off. I did ths Mario 64 & Kirby Super Star, and they both look brighter than how they are presented when you switch back to playing them.

EDIT: And like a drum, I was beaten.
 

CrAzY FiNgErS

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Nov 16, 2010
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I am so tired of Nintendo screwing up their VC service that I decided that I don't trust them with it anymore. Color issues, blurry issues, those are only part of the problem. More than anything legacy games need to be carried over for everyone to enjoy, yet Nintendo doesn't give us the right or the capability to transfer every last VC game we bought on the Wii over to the Wii U. We also wait years for games like Pocky & Rocky to show up and Natsume tell us Nintendo is done porting SNES games over.

What is going on with Nintendo? Are they really that clueless? Thankfully I am a PC gamer as well and I have a system that can play the latest PC games as well as emulate legacy games up to the GameCube and Wii.

I recently bought a Retrode to dump my own Roms from my own cartridges, which includes the capability of reading cartridges from the SNES and Genesis era. Later this month I will be getting plugins that will allow me to finally play N64 and GBx games on my computer. Sure collecting cartridges can get expensive, but at least I have a multitude of options on how to play those cartridges. Something Nintendo hasn't given me.
 

jholmes

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Jan 15, 2014
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I personally think Paper Mario looks way, way too dark on Wii U but of course the OP has to be two screenshots where the lighter one looks like crap.

Yeah, why hasn't any news publication called out Nintendo for this?
Why hasn't any news publication called out Konami for sitting on the entire Hudson portfolio, even on basic fish-in-a-barrel stuff like putting it on the Virtual Console?

I'd like to see both happen but I expect neither will.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
Jan 5, 2008
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Common optical illusion. Had to check it myself.



E: Well I'm late now. But it's a decent example.
Still not the exact shade of gray, I can see the round end of the brush stroke on this monitor :p

Edit: Wouldn't it be funny if there was a super secret button combo to fix it? Get your nunchuks people
 

Madao

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Apr 3, 2010
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I personally think Paper Mario looks way, way too dark on Wii U but of course the OP has to be two screenshots where the lighter one looks like crap.



Why hasn't any news publication called out Konami for sitting on the entire Hudson portfolio, even on basic fish-in-a-barrel stuff like putting it on the Virtual Console?

I'd like to see both happen but I expect neither will.
the current journalists only care about the newest and shiniest games. they couldn't give 2 cents about games that came out 25 years ago.

maybe when this industry is old enough, people will finally understand how valuable past material is. cinema was the same way very early on and a ton of classic stuff from the early 20th century was lost because people didn't give a shit back then. now look at how movies are preserved. that industry is over 100 years old now. gaming doesn't even have 1/3 of the time around.
 

hatchx

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Jun 30, 2009
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Gonzo (or anyone), have you tried just boosting the brightness and contrast of your TV/monitor? Does it do the job?

I was gonna grab PM64, but that darkness is really putting me off. Would love to hear if someone has 're-corrected' the colour.
 

KHlover

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Jun 26, 2013
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the current journalists only care about the newest and shiniest games. they couldn't give 2 cents about games that came out 25 years ago.

maybe when this industry is old enough, people will finally understand how valuable past material is. cinema was the same way very early on and a ton of classic stuff from the early 20th century was lost because people didn't give a shit back then. now look at how movies are preserved. that industry is over 100 years old now. gaming doesn't even have 1/3 of the time around.
The original cartridges still exist, you know. As does the Wii VC version which apparently is superior (and probably has sold like 100x more than the WiiU VC). Then there's all the ROMS of the game floating out there. The WiiU version is completely irrelevant when it comes to preservation.
 

Balb

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Dec 14, 2007
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the current journalists only care about the newest and shiniest games. they couldn't give 2 cents about games that came out 25 years ago.

maybe when this industry is old enough, people will finally understand how valuable past material is. cinema was the same way very early on and a ton of classic stuff from the early 20th century was lost because people didn't give a shit back then. now look at how movies are preserved. that industry is over 100 years old now. gaming doesn't even have 1/3 of the time around.
Nintendo should understand this more than anyone else. They have the most valuable and desirable back catalog of any single publisher. Not sure why they took such a big step back with the Wii U VC. Wii VC was pretty good (for the Nintendo and Sega systems at least). I just don't get it.
 

Rich!

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Dec 16, 2009
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Gonzo (or anyone), have you tried just boosting the brightness and contrast of your TV/monitor? Does it do the job?

I was gonna grab PM64, but that darkness is really putting me off. Would love to hear if someone has 're-corrected' the colour.
I tried with Mario 64 and it only resulted in crushed colours

Never ever buying another Wii U VC game again, that's for sure. Between this, the input lag and the unnaceptable 50hz situation its simply not worth a penny more of my money.

Amazing how software made by hobbyists such as Retroarch offers a superior and more accurate experience than anything Nintendo themselves can give. I mean, retroarch with the BSNES core and a decent CRT shader is not only 100% cycle accurate emulation but looks fantastic too. And yes, its hooked up to my TV with both a SNES pad and with the Wii U pro controller.
 

jholmes

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Nintendo should understand this more than anyone else. They have the most valuable and desirable back catalog of any single publisher. Not sure why they took such a big step back with the Wii U VC. Wii VC was pretty good (for the Nintendo and Sega systems at least). I just don't get it.
You can knock Nintendo for stuff like having Paper Mario look really dark but the fact is they're on track if not further ahead in terms of the games they're releasing on Virtual Console compared to the Wii. The big difference is third parties, specifically Sega, SNK, Square-Enix and Konami. Why they do what they do, who knows.
 

Valen

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Oct 19, 2013
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Wouldn't this be something really easy for them to fix? Literally just a brightness value they have to increase somewhere in their code?

If they weren't so hellbent on making every single game have a unique version of their emulator, they could send out a universal update and have this fixed in a day for all VC titles.

But it's Nintendo... so they won't.
 

Madao

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The original cartridges still exist, you know. As does the Wii VC version which apparently is superior (and probably has sold like 100x more than the WiiU VC). Then there's all the ROMS of the game floating out there. The WiiU version is completely irrelevant when it comes to preservation.
well, you don't see random joes preserving cinema reels from the 1920s casually.

this is something the publishers should be doing. not the users. imagine if Disney went all crazy and decided to not re-release the Star Wars trilogy anymore just because there's already versions out there that people can just "preserve" by ripping the BDs or DVDs or if they released a version that looks worse than the first VHS release. the shitstorm would be endless.
 

StevieP

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Sep 10, 2006
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I thought this was intentional to avoid potential epilepsy lawsuits and stuff to that nature? Somebody in the press did investigate I think.... Wish I could recall where I read that. But Jesus folks I don't think it's because of some ridiculously extreme incompetence. I'm pretty sure these are the same folks porting the games that they have been for a while.
 
D

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Madao

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heh, looks like i picked an example with its own issues
though we still haven't seen if Disney would continue doing what George Lucas did. maybe they'll actually release an unedited version eventually since there's demand for it.

not that Nintendo would be clear of this because there's instances where, even if they did preserve their games with top notch emulation, some games would only be preserved by fans such as Metroid Prime's initial release which has the best sequence breaking and speedrunning potential.
 

Sixfortyfive

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You can knock Nintendo for stuff like having Paper Mario look really dark but the fact is they're on track if not further ahead in terms of the games they're releasing on Virtual Console compared to the Wii. The big difference is third parties, specifically Sega, SNK, Square-Enix and Konami. Why they do what they do, who knows.
The Genesis Virtual Console died so that the Sega 3D Classics could live. And that's a net positive, IMO.

Not sure I agree with the first statement, either.

I thought this was intentional to avoid potential epilepsy lawsuits and stuff to that nature? Somebody in the press did investigate I think.... Wish I could recall where I read that. But Jesus folks I don't think it's because of some ridiculously extreme incompetence. I'm pretty sure these are the same folks porting the games that they have been for a while.
Specific rapid-flash effects are edited out of VC games for that reason. I doubt this issue is related.
 

Rich!

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Dec 16, 2009
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well, you don't see random joes preserving cinema reels from the 1920s casually.
You can't hook up a projection reel and simply copy it over to your computer.

By contrast, pretty much every single cartridge ever made can be hooked up to a computer and dumped and you need very little technical knowhow to do so, thanks to backup loaders and devices such as the retrode.

Almost every single retail game from every single console from the PS2/GC era and below has been categorised, backed up and archived. And this is purely down to the homebrew/hobbyist/backup community.

Even now, as shown on http://3ds.essh.co, every single new release on the 3DS and Wii U is being categorised and backed up.

So yeah.
 

fernoca

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Well, technically the title is wrong.

Nintendo IS capable of emulating their own games properly as they've shown, they just make some weird decisions.

Like the toned down colors in Wii U VC, or like when they updated Star Fox on Wii to add the slowdown.

:p


In general, is maybe their obsession to "have it right" in some cases, that they seem to ignore others.

I think that for example, Virtual Console games on Smash and NES Remix looks better and sharper, because those are forced to run at whatever resolution the game outputs, while in the actual VC releases (and demos like amiibo Tap), the games are forced or maybe faked to look or run at 480p; which causes the blurriness. Or something.

Who knows.
 

jholmes

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The Genesis Virtual Console died so that the Sega 3D Classics could live. And that's a net positive, IMO.

Not sure I agree with the first statement, either.
Feel free to disagree with the first statement with specific examples of NES and SNES games Nintendo released on the Wii and has yet to release on the Wii U.

And while I like the 3D Classics just fine I'd much rather have the dozens and dozens of Genesis games the Wii had moved over to Wii U than a handful of Genesis launch-window games in 3D (no offence to Outrun 3D!)
 

Madao

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You can't hook up a projection reel and simply copy it over to your computer.

By contrast, pretty much every single cartridge ever made can be hooked up to a computer and dumped and you need very little technical knowhow to do so, thanks to backup loaders and devices such as the retrode.

Almost every single retail game from every single console from the PS2/GC era and below has been categorised, backed up and archived. And this is purely down to the homebrew/hobbyist/backup community.

Even now, as shown on http://3ds.essh.co, every single new release on the 3DS and Wii U is being categorised and backed up.

So yeah.
well, it's true that the digital era has brought some advantages over stuff from 100 years ago but that doesn't mean the publishers should just become lazy and pass that job to users dedicated enough to do it.

there's also issues wth games that are not properly playable outside their original setup such as Satellaview games or 64DD games. we're kinda getting to a point they'll be saved from disappearing with their aging formats but it's such a huge hassle over something Nintendo themselves could solve with a VC release easily.
 

Rich!

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well, it's true that the digital era has brought some advantages over stuff from 100 years ago but that doesn't mean the publishers should just become lazy and pass that job to users dedicated enough to do it.

there's also issues wth games that are not properly playable outside their original setup such as Satellaview games or 64DD games. we're kinda getting to a point they'll be saved from disappearing with their aging formats but it's such a huge hassle over something Nintendo themselves could solve with a VC release easily.
Actually...

Every single 64DD release including Mario 64 disk version have just been ripped within the last few months and emulation is already being worked on.



Also with the satellaview, BS Zelda 1 and 3 prove the worth of the enthusiast community. They resurrected them into 100% playable games. Nintendo would never,ever have bothered.